Help! Does this sound logical?

[unsinkable]

On a local talk radio station the show's host asked the director of our SPCA why she thought people disliked cats. The SPCA director said that cats are disliked because the Roman Catholic Church, in an attempt to destroy anything associated w/paganism encouraged people to torture and kill cats. She (the SPCA director) specifically said the Roman Catholic Church several times. She also said this went on for hundreds of years and that it was a factor in the spread of the Black Plague (not enough cats to control rat population on which the fleas lived.) She repeated that the Roman Catholic Church tried to kill anything associated w/paganism so they killed women...women and cats.

 

Here is my question: Is it even logical that people today hate cats b/c of the Church's action in the middle ages?

 

I am Catholic and I know the Church has many, many instances of wrongdoing. But this seems to me to be really reaching.

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

[phathui5]

Honestly, I think that's stupid.

[Plucky]

That is really weird. I think people don't like cats because they aren't cat people in general. That woman was definitely reaching.

[K-FL]

She repeated that the Roman Catholic Church tried to kill anything associated w/paganism so they killed women...women and cats.

 

 

 

She's reaching & I'm not sure she even has her facts right. Sounds like she has an axe to grind re: the Roman Catholics or Christians in general.:glare:

[Ashleen]

Here is my question: Is it even logical that people today hate cats b/c of the Church's action in the middle ages?

 

Well...I have heard that before about cats and the Catholic Church. And there is the whole superstition about black cats being bad luck (I've heard that black cats today almost always have at least one white hair because in the past cats that were totally black were killed and the only ones who survived had at least one white hair).

 

However...in no case have I met someone who didn't like cats for that reason. And I've met a lot of people who don't like cats. Some of their reasons include:

 

1. Cats are dirty. They use a litter box in the house and sometimes refuse to even do that much. Litter boxes stink and people hate changing the litter.

 

2. Sometimes children approach outdoor cats they don't know and get scratched. This makes them dislike cats and they keep disliking cats as adults.

 

3. Cats are seen as aloof and have a reputation for being loners (odd, because they are extremely social)

 

4. You can't train a cat the same way you can train a dog. The other day, my son was getting frustrated because the cat was trying to eat out of the bowl while he was still filling the bowl, and he wanted the cat to "Sit!" and wait like the dog does. You probably *could* train a cat to sit, but not nearly as easily as every dog on the planet learns it.

 

5. Cats are carnivores and one of the few animals that like to hunt humans. Some people distrust cats because they (rightly) assume the only reason housecats don't eat humans is because we're so much bigger than them. Cats that are the same size as or bigger than us are always dangerous, whereas several breeds of dog top 100 pounds and are quite gentle.

 

6. Caterwauling. Some people can't stand the sound of a cat's voice.

 

There are probably many other reasons too, all of the people I've known who don't like cats have reasons. I honestly doubt the Catholic Church is anyone's reason.

[starlashine]

I will add that some are just allergic to them, but a lot of people still like them in spite of that. The whole Roman Catholic thing sounds pretty dumb to me. My hubby is Catholic and he loves our black cat. Though Chump does, in fact, have a white patch on his tummy. Life has actually gotten better since he joined our family.

[elegantlion]

My dh does not like our cat because he sits in dh's recliner and leaves hair. We are not Catholic nor pagan so dh's religious beliefs have little to do with it. :tongue_smilie:

[K&Rs Mom]

No, the SPCA lady wasn't at all logical, but that won't affect most people's opinions anyway.... :glare:

 

Personally, I like to visit cats but don't want to own one, because of the shedding and the smell. We did have a foster cat for a few weeks last winter, and it was fun but cemented my prejudice. In the interest of full disclosure though, I am Catholic. :tongue_smilie:

[Jenny in Florida]

And there is the whole superstition about black cats being bad luck (I've heard that black cats today almost always have at least one white hair because in the past cats that were totally black were killed and the only ones who survived had at least one white hair).

 

I've never heard that, but I do know that black cats have a much tougher time being adopted. I have read that they have the lowest adoption rates and the highest euthanasia rates. In fact, some cat rescue agencies won't even take in a black cat, because they know it will take up space for so much longer and be more trouble to find a home.

 

Many shelters also will not allow adoptions of black cats in the weeks leading up to Halloween, for fear people will use the cats in pranks.

 

We have tried to do our part to improve the situation by adopting two black kittens.

[nutmeg]

I vote for illogical and just plain ridiculous. :001_huh:

[Cheryl in NM]

:lol::lol::lol:...I...um...:lol::lol::lol:...wait a minute...I've got it....:lol::lol:

 

What an IDIOT!

 

That's all I have to say!

[Gretchen in NJ]

The woman was definitely has issues that she needs to deal with. It is a shame that she was allowed to state a falsehood like that on the radio. :glare:

 

Someone listenning to that show now might believe what she said to be true.

[Pink Fairy]

I've heard a lot of silly stuff about Catholicism, but I think this might just be the silliest. I wouldn't give it another thought.

[OhM]

Wow - just wow.

 

Yes, hatred implanted by the Roman Catholic Church makes much more sense than "cats' claws destroy furniture, curtains and other household items," or anything that Ashleen mentioned.

[Danestress]

It would be because they are often allowed to wander free instead, they kill birds and squirrels because their owners let them wander free AND don't make them wear bells, they poop in sand boxes, and they make me sneeze.

 

But I still actually rather like them. It's cat owners I have a problem with:)

[mcconnellboys]

I've never, ever read this anywhere in all the years we've studied the middle ages.....

[Paula in PA]

My dh is an avid history lover and confirms that part. So do these links:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cats

 

http://www.ideashappen.org/cats/middle-ages-cats.html

 

http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/2149/History-Human-Animal-Interaction-MEDIEVAL-PERIOD.html

 

http://hubpages.com/hub/Cats-in-Medieval-Times

 

As for it affecting modern times, that is due to human psychology.

[*anj*]

I've never heard that before. I think that woman must be a blowhard with an ax to grind. In fact, let's get Bill Donohue (President of the Catholic League, and imo a major blowhard) to publicly debate that woman. It would be quite the entertaining show, I'd imagine.

 

Anyway....

I can't stand cats. I have more tolerance for very, very young kittens, but not grown up cats.

I don't like the way they look at you.

I don't like the way the brush up against you, leaving their hair on your clothing.

I don't like the way they lick themselves with those scratchy tongues.

Hairballs, need I say more?

I don't like the way they go jumping up onto furniture, laps, Christmas trees.

Litter box=yuck.

They stick their claws out.

I don't like the way they smell and that people who live with them sometimes grow immune to the smell of the litter box but guests can walk right in and smell the cat.

I don't like it that they leave "gifts" of dead rodent heads on the porch.

I don't like it that they aren't more like dogs. :tongue_smilie::glare:;)

[Cheryl in NM]

Okay, I just have to say...I love my cats! That said, even if there is a grain of truth to some of that woman's accusations I don't think it plays into today's society. I think people hate cats for the very valid reasons they've listed on the board today.

 

That is all, except, "MEOW, dont' hate me because I have a sticky tongue!" :tongue_smilie:

[*anj*]

Okay, I just have to say...I love my cats!

 

And well you should!! A cat is a much needed commodity on a farm. If I were married to a farmer I would have cats all over the place...except in the house. ;)

[Danestress]

None of those websites contained references to primary sources. Just because someone's history blog or cat blog says that it's true doesn't totally convince me. I am deying it's true - it could be. But I'd need something more convincing to really believe it happened on a wide enough level to affect how millions of people think about cats hundreds of years later. I'd need more than isolated instances.

 

But I must say, I don't really believe people hate cats anyway - in particularly greater numbers than they hate dogs or hate children. I know a few people who can't stand cats and many people who don't want to own one.

 

To me, though, possibly greatest danger to cats seems to be that people like them but don't want to spend the money to have them spayed/neutered. So there are WAY more cats then there are good homes for them. Shelters are full of cats who end up being killed because cat lovers didn't do the responsible thing and have their cats spayed/neutered. So they ended up with kittens, some of whom go on to produce their own litter.

[Plaid Dad]

None of those websites contained references to primary sources.

 

I agree. Nary a footnote in sight. (One page didn't load for me.) I'd love to see a primary source reference to cats being the "official" symbol of heresy. :confused:

 

There's this book, but the incident it refers to did not take place during the Middle Ages, nor did it have anything to do with the Catholic Church.

 

It sounds like the lady is ripe for her own Snopes page. Has anyone contacted the SPCA or the radio station about this? Because I'm pretty sure that publicly spouting anti-Catholic propaganda is not part of the job description of any SPCA employee. :glare:

[unsinkable]

Hi Everyone:

 

Thank you for your input so far.

 

Here is more info:

 

I emailed the host of the radio station and he responded:

 

You may not have known this, but Barbara's facts were in order. The second article below is by Stephen Young with The Catholic University.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. Pope Gregory IX denounced black cats as Satanic in his 1233 Papal Bull 'Vox in Rama' and this launched the extermination of many cats, and subsequently thousands of cats were burned alive in the cause of searching out the devil. Tales of these witches' cats turning into mice, dogs, bats and all sorts of creatures flourished during the Middle Ages.

 

 

 

Source: http://pio.tripod.com/magicpaw/catmyths.html

 

 

 

 

 

2. Features - The Domestic Cat and the Law: A Guide to Available Resources

By Stephen Young, Published on December 17, 2001

 

Printer-Friendly Version

 

 

Stephen Young is a reference librarian at The Catholic University of America, Kathryn J. DuFour Law Library. His research interests are primarily in the area of United Kingdom law, however in recognition of the holiday season Stephen offers this lighthearted piece on the domestic cat

 

In the Middle Ages the cat, in the words of the Supreme Court of Kansas, “fell to the lowest depths of superstitious disrepute.†[smith v. Steinauf 36 P.2d 995 (Ks. 1934)] Pope Gregory IX’s declaration of the cat as a diabolical creature created the perception that cats were the embodiment of the devil and a symbol of heresy [attributed to Pope Gregory IX’s papal bulletin, Vox in Rama (1232)]. The legal standing of the cat in Elizabethan England was no better. Persons who kept cats were suspected of “wickedness†and were often put to death along with their cats under the authority of the Witchcraft Act, 1563, 5 Eliz. c.16 (Eng.). Agnes Waterhouse, who owned a cat with the unfortunate name of ‘Sathan,’ was the first to be tried and executed as a witch under this law at the Chelmsford Assizes in July of 1566 (see Gregory Durston, Witchcraft and Witch Trials: A History of English Witchcraft and Its Legal Perspectives, 1542 to 1736 (2000) at 375 for a more detailed description of this trial).

 

 

 

Source: http://www.llrx.com/features/catlaw.htm

 

I've looked for a translation of this "Vox in Rama" bull but can't find one. I found that it does deal with a heretical sect and accusations of witchcraft. I've also not been able to find any specific information about what happened to cats after this was written. There are many undocumented "history of cats" websites. Some say thousands of cats were killed, some say hundred of thousands. It is frustrating because it looks like on many websites people have copied the same info about cats and the Middle Ages but I can't find out a primary source!

 

I still want to know if given the idea that the Church persecuted cats in the Middle Ages, the idead cats are still hated today is logical?

 

Is this just a faulty conclusion? Is there another name for it?

[brehon]

Hi Everyone:

 

Thank you for your input so far.

 

Here is more info:

 

I emailed the host of the radio station and he responded:

 

You may not have known this, but Barbara's facts were in order. The second article below is by Stephen Young with The Catholic University.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. Pope Gregory IX denounced black cats as Satanic in his 1233 Papal Bull 'Vox in Rama' and this launched the extermination of many cats, and subsequently thousands of cats were burned alive in the cause of searching out the devil. Tales of these witches' cats turning into mice, dogs, bats and all sorts of creatures flourished during the Middle Ages.

 

 

 

Source: http://pio.tripod.com/magicpaw/catmyths.html

 

 

 

 

 

2. Features - The Domestic Cat and the Law: A Guide to Available Resources

By Stephen Young, Published on December 17, 2001

 

Printer-Friendly Version

 

 

Stephen Young is a reference librarian at The Catholic University of America, Kathryn J. DuFour Law Library. His research interests are primarily in the area of United Kingdom law, however in recognition of the holiday season Stephen offers this lighthearted piece on the domestic cat

 

In the Middle Ages the cat, in the words of the Supreme Court of Kansas, “fell to the lowest depths of superstitious disrepute.†[smith v. Steinauf 36 P.2d 995 (Ks. 1934)] Pope Gregory IX’s declaration of the cat as a diabolical creature created the perception that cats were the embodiment of the devil and a symbol of heresy [attributed to Pope Gregory IX’s papal bulletin, Vox in Rama (1232)]. The legal standing of the cat in Elizabethan England was no better. Persons who kept cats were suspected of “wickedness†and were often put to death along with their cats under the authority of the Witchcraft Act, 1563, 5 Eliz. c.16 (Eng.). Agnes Waterhouse, who owned a cat with the unfortunate name of ‘Sathan,’ was the first to be tried and executed as a witch under this law at the Chelmsford Assizes in July of 1566 (see Gregory Durston, Witchcraft and Witch Trials: A History of English Witchcraft and Its Legal Perspectives, 1542 to 1736 (2000) at 375 for a more detailed description of this trial).

 

 

 

Source: http://www.llrx.com/features/catlaw.htm

 

I've looked for a translation of this "Vox in Rama" bull but can't find one. I found that it does deal with a heretical sect and accusations of witchcraft. I've also not been able to find any specific information about what happened to cats after this was written. There are many undocumented "history of cats" websites. Some say thousands of cats were killed, some say hundred of thousands. It is frustrating because it looks like on many websites people have copied the same info about cats and the Middle Ages but I can't find out a primary source!

 

I still want to know if given the idea that the Church persecuted cats in the Middle Ages, the idead cats are still hated today is logical?

 

Is this just a faulty conclusion? Is there another name for it?

 

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but, Elizabethan England was not officially Roman Catholic. Any official persecution/prosecution of cats &/or cat owners would have been perpetrated under the auspices of the CoE. Although the idea that killing cats may have contributed to the spread of the plague in London/England (especially the outbreak of the early 1660's) is probably accurate.

 

I'm not sure that any actions taken against cats were to stamp out paganism. Europe (hmm, I should probably say that I mean here western Europe which, of course, leaves out the Orthodox tradition in eastern Europe) was solidly Catholic by the 13th century. There was the Albigensian Crusade (I'm almost positive I spelled that incorrectly. Sorry.) against the Cathars in southern France in that time frame. Maybe later -- the early 14th century? The Cathars, however, were a Christian sect persecuted and prosecuted for heresy.

 

And, let's not forget, that our own forebears, the Puritans (definitely not Roman Catholic), also engaged in a spot of witch hunting and cat killing.

 

As far as prejudice against cats in general (and black cats in particular), no, that idea is not very logical (using the given historical reason). Maybe we as a species are simply not as rational as we'd like to be, if ancient, misguided thoughts and actions play any part in our [collective] modern attitudes towards cats.

 

In the interest of full disclosure, I am a cat owner. Or, rather, I am owned by our cats. And we've had a couple of pure black cats.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

Haha! You sound exactly like my mom! We used to have a cat that would stare at her, and it drove her nuts! :o)

 

While it is true that they killed cats in the Middle Ages because they thought the cats carried plague, I agree that modern people have their own good reasons for not liking cats (nobody has mentioned itchy, watery eyes that come after petting a cat). But, it makes no sense that the only reason people hate cats is because of some deep, genetic aversion passed down in the psyche through the past several hundred years. I never liked them until I had one who liked me! :o)

[DB in NJ]

Ridiculous. My dislike of cats has absolutely NOTHING to do with Catholicism! What a joke.

 

It has EVERYTHING to do with sharp claws, stinky food, and litter boxes. 'nuff said ;)

[Murphy101]

Oh geez. I'm catholic and I'd laugh if that wasn't such a stupid lack of logic. The puritans weren't catholic but did similiar things much closer to our time than the plague. I wouldn't say all prots are women/cat/pagan haters because of that long past event perpetrated by a few misguided superstitous overly prude people.

 

Cats wouldn't have prevented the plague. fleas spread the plague. cats would have carried the plague just as well as rats. if not worse if they'd been sleeping with people!

 

I've always had cats, preferably multiple cats. People don't even know I own a indoor only cat, so I think smell isn't an issue. Not sure why it is for others.

 

Saying people dislike cats because of something that happened nearly a 1000 years ago would be like saying all women should hate dogs and falcons because patriachal england was ruled by men who refused to give women rights and many of those men would not let women go on hunts. So women who hate dogs must hate them because they associate dogs with their suppressed and oppressed females ancestors. What nonsense.:lol:

 

People just don't like every animal. I dislike spiders. I disliked them even when I wasn't christian and it hasn't nothing to do with being Catholic.

 

Oh and it's an interesting take on cats being carnivores...

Dogs prefer to hunt too. They will give up hunting if the pack needs them to, but they want to hunt. I think the only reason they were able to be domesticated was their lack pack mentality and because it benefited their belly. Honestly that's the only reason humans wanted them too. Dogs didn't start as pets, their main purpose was to help in the hunts and protecting livestock.

 

I don't hold the nature of the animal against it and hope they give me the same consideration.

 

But I'm weird, I literally grew up riding elephants and playing with boas and monkeys, so my perspective on animals is rather skewed from the average persons. The beneifts of having an elephant trainer for a father and no silly child labor laws forcing him to pay for childcare instead of just taking me to work!:D

[*anj*]

(nobody has mentioned itchy, watery eyes that come after petting a cat).

 

Yeah, how could I forget that? I don't even have to pet one. I have only to be in the house and sit on a piece of upholstered furniture and I'll start sneezing and rubbing my eyes. :glare: