Poll: Do you support capital punishment?

[nancypants]

I believe there are situations where capital punishment is just.

 

HOWEVER, I also believe our system is so flawed in it's disbursement of justice, that it would be imprudent to trust it to not send the wrong person death.

 

For that reason alone, I oppose the legalitzation of it 99% of the time.

 

I believe it should be only when there is no doubt of guilt after all of the facts are presented in a murder case. For example, someone was seen committing the crime and/or admits murder and there is supporting evidence they did it.

 

Believe it or not, there are actually excremely rare cases where those criteria are met. The shaken grounds used to convict some to life/death are really rather shocking.

 

And it is not equal regardless of race or income. You can have the exact same crime/evidence and get very different sentences. That I do not agree with. If it is a just punishment, then it's just for anyone who commits such a crime. Unfortunately juries and judges and DAs do not dispense justice that way. They make deals, they give credit for having a good public image, and lawyers slant information and judges withhold information from juries.

 

So I think there are a few crimes where death is justified for the perpetrator, but I don't trust our system and would rather not risk putting an innocent person to death.

 

 

This is where I stand. I wish it was carried out equally and swiftly across the board. I think the posh nature of prisons now days make a total joke out of the idea of justice... not to mention how easy it is to get parole or early release because of overcrowding.

[nancypants]

However, if it were my kid - I'd kill the person myself. I know that I would absolutely go insane if anyone EVER harmed my kid. Be she 12 or 62.

 

=========================================

You would willingly possibly give up at least a few years incarcerated (or whatever the mandatory minimum is for manslaughter) away from your husband, surviving children, and other beloved family members to seek revenge for the murder of your child? Seriously? And what then if the alleged killer's family felt that they needed to kill you... ad nauseam. Wasn't it Gandhi who said something along lines of "an eye for eye and we will all be blind."

 

Personally, I would not be willing to gamble that I could get off scot free and have the murder considered justifiable homicide. Nor would I count on temporary insanity plea or even a suspended sentence on a manslaughter conviction.

 

What if an innocent person was charged with your child's murder, and then you killed the innocent? That has happened, you know.

 

Nonetheless, I understand that the drive for revenge is hardwired into our brains.

 

And I'm not so noble that I haven't experienced schadenfreude myself on more than a few occasions.

 

Really, I think it's less the idea of revenge and more the idea of misapplied justice. When a govt. stops properly applying justice the people will eventually figure out that leaving justice to the authorities is a lost cause and take matters into their own hands. That doesn't mean they'd be right in doing so but the government is certainly guilty of not carrying it out themselves and they can only blame themselves for the excess of criminals and the overcrowded prisons.

 

You know the justice system is a screwed up mess when you hear about something like this and people tend to be happy that the man was shot on the spot because they know very well that the likelihood of him receiving a just punishment through the legal system is slim to none. You know the justice system is screwed up when people are almost thankful that a person who murdered his wife and children also did himself in because no "justice" that the government could have applied would have equaled the offense.

[PrairieAir]

I voted no. I don't know. It has never sat well with me. These are people for whom Christ died. I mean, look at Paul. He was plotting to kill Christ Himself and God changed his heart. It is possible for a hardened criminal to change. Many violent crimes are commintted under the influence of drugs or booze. I am just not sure that it is up to us, and it sure isn't up to our corrupt legal system to figure this out. I lnow there are people sitting in jail right now that have done horrible things. There are also people sitting in jail who are innocent of the crime they are accused of. However, none of us are innocent. All have sinned. Do I deserve death? Yes. But God in his mercy saved me. How then can I say someone deserves to die for what they have done?

 

I read this post just before I went outside to weed for a while, and I've been thinking about it the entire time. I answered the way I have always thought about it. It's a rather emotional response to the question rather than a logical, well-reasoned response. Marie's post made me re-think things.

 

Remember that moral compass thread? I said the Bible is my moral compass and that I try to follow God's and Christ's examples. I thought about my answer to this poll in relationship to that thread and questions that were asked about how so many people could say the Bible is their moral compass and come up with different ideas for what is right and what is wrong. Peek had some good points about how someone might try to use a compass, but be using it wrongly or using it to find another direction besides north (very loosely paraphrased there). This morning I wondered if I had a) really used that reference I say is my moral compass in coming to my conclusions about capital punishment and b) whether I had used the thing properly to find the right direction.

 

The Old Testament law does give instructions for handling crimes such as murder and rape. Prior to the giving of the law when Cain killed Abel, God did not condemn Cain to death. He put a mark upon Cain so that he would not be killed. I really need to study this further, but it seems I remember there may have been some exceptions to the rule after the law was given, too.

 

Then again, I do not believe we are under the Old Testament law. Many of the things required in the law (such as animal sacrifices) most Christians would recognize as not being applicable in this current administration. (Do Jews still do all the sacrifices?) I believe the Bible says that Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law and that the law was a schoolmaster to prepare us for the time when Christ would come and fulfill that law. If we are living as God would have us to, we will naturally keep to some of that law, but all the requirements of sacrifice, etc. are no longer necessary because Jesus Christ paid the ultimate price and redeemed us from that law. So, if we are no longer under the law, do the punishments for crimes under the Old Testament law stand? (Purely from a Christian viewpoint, of course.) Jesus Christ died for all of mankind's sins, not just those which are easy to forgive. If I truly believe that, is it right for me to advocate capital punishment? However, redemption really has to do with our state for eternity rather than this life on earth, so does how does it figure into a decision on capital punishment? Yet, if I say I want to follow Christ's example, I don't think there is a basis for me to agree with capital punishment. Did Jesus ever say, "Kill the sinner!"

 

All this to say I no longer know where I stand on capital punishment! It also goes to show that no matter what your moral compass is, proper choices are dependent upon whether or not you know how to read the thing right! :001_huh:

 

An actual compass is a pretty good example of this because I've worked with kids in Scouts and Young Marines while they were learning to read a compass and map. Thankfully there was someone else teaching who is better with a compass because I still don't get all of that compass course stuff. What is an azimuth and how do you figure the back azimuth? Degrees? What? My knowledge of how to use a compass is very basic. Kinda like with the Bible. Very basic knowledge there, except I have a desire to know more and so I keep trying to learn and keep re-evaluating how I think based on what I've learned. I bet all y'all that have a different moral compass do things similarly. When you get to the point where you think you know it all, you're no longer able to learn or adapt. You might as well be dead.

[chiguirre]

I'd like to recommend a book on this topic, John Grisham's The Innocent Man. It's a non-fiction account of a mentally disturbed man who was wrongly convicted of first degree murder and who came within a day of execution. It's not a polemic, it's just the story of this guy's life. And, of course, it's an absorbing book just like Grisham's fiction.

[Murphy101]

As another poster, I do not view the death penalty as a means to reduce the crime (I agree it doesn't work that way), or as a means of revenge.

 

The death penalty (and jail too for that matter) are not for the sake of criminals - it is for the sake of overall social need.

 

The purpose of the death penatly is not to met out revenge anymore than prison is for rehabilitation. The purpose is to completely and utterly remove any possiblity that such a horrific crime will ever be committed or perpetrated by that person ever again. And remember, prision is full of people, so sending a person to prison does not keep them from committing the crime of murder or rape again! It just means they commit it against a fellow inmate - a problem in such prisons.

 

When I say "witness" I mean someone who was actually there, such as another victim. (random witness are notoriously unreliable) For example, a man breaks into a home and rapes the daughters/mother and brutally murders the man of the house. I sincerely doubt that woman will ever forget the man she had to watch do that to her family. The problem with such horrid crimes of murder is there is rarely a visual witness. That's why so many get away with it.

 

Rape/molestation are extremely difficult to prove the vast majority of the time. DNA is hyped up, but very often there is not DNA or a match for it. So the vast majority of the time it boils down to he said/she said.

 

Oh and chemical/pshyco castration is about to be a thing of the past because more and more cases are showing it is very unreliable. They should be in prison for life. (because I do not believe that most of the time the crime can be proven beyond doubt for death. It is usually the emotional side of the trial that gets a jury conviction.) If anything, I think I read a while back, can't remember where, that it actually leds to more violent attacks because the perpetrator is frustrated and cannot achieve the desired act. The anger is metted out on the victim.

 

Cost... I don't think cost should be a factor. I approve the appeal process, which is in place for everyone, not just death penalty cases. When someone is finally put to death, it should be after a very lengthy and thorough process to remove any doubt and give every opportunity for a fair and just sentence.

 

So again, I'm pro death penalty in a few rare situations but not with the system of arbitary sentencing currently in place.

 

I also agree with another poster that I'm tired of stupid pot heads getting jail. I'm not for drug use, but it doesn't work. If anythign they are being sent somewhere to learn how to be a much worse offender. Prison should be for serious offenders.

[KidsHappen]

Actually, don't you see this as a problem, too? I mean, *if* we're going to execute someone, it sure shouldn't cost *more* than keeping them alive!! It didn't cost *them* anything to hurt their victim(s)!

 

Oh I absolutely agree. But the government wants to exhaust all possibility that they are incorrectly applying the death penalty. And still they are frequently wrong.

[Crissy]

Originally Posted by Crissy

I've heard that, too. Thankfully, it wasn't one of my children who suffered.

It was my brother who was murdered. It was shocking, it was violent and it was awful.

I still oppose the death pentalty. [/Quote]

My sil was murdered extremely violently. Her adopted son will serve 10 years for his crime. Her youngest child will not even be 18 when this killer walks from prison. I supported the death penalty before this crime came into my life and I support it now. I am angry that we know a kid from our neighborhood that served 3 years for selling 10 xanax and driving on a suspended license. Then this killer gets 10 years for stabbing somebody 39 times. The justice makes no sense.

 

 

I should add this. My family and I never had to deal with our unjust justice system. My brother's case remains unsolved.

I admit that I would possibly have a different viewpoint had we experienced 'the system'.

[Crissy]

This is where I stand. I wish it was carried out equally and swiftly across the board. I think the posh nature of prisons now days make a total joke out of the idea of justice... not to mention how easy it is to get parole or early release because of overcrowding.

 

 

I would disagree with the assertion that our prisons are posh in nature. Not barbaric, but certainly not pleasant and comfortable, I think.

[nancypants]

I would disagree with the assertion that our prisons are posh in nature. Not barbaric, but certainly not pleasant and comfortable, I think.

 

Okay, maybe posh was the wrong word. :tongue_smilie: But certainly I think any prison that allows any of the following; television, internet access, work out facilities (the rest of us have to pay an arm and a leg for a gym!) and any food that is better than what the US military receives are what I would consider to be "posh" or "too nice for a prison." I don't know how many offer those things but I remember enough news stories to think that it's more than a few.

[beansprouts]

Okay, maybe posh was the wrong word. :tongue_smilie: But certainly I think any prison that allows any of the following; television, internet access, work out facilities (the rest of us have to pay an arm and a leg for a gym!) and any food that is better than what the US military receives are what I would consider to be "posh" or "too nice for a prison." I don't know how many offer those things but I remember enough news stories to think that it's more than a few.

 

I do agree with this. I think prisoners have some unnecessary luxuries.

[Colleen]

I wish we would outgrow the whole eye for an eye thing. I can't understand, myself, how a supposedly Christian culture can actually support the killing of anyone as punishment.

 

Speaking as a Christian, I can't understand it either.

[sweetTN]

Wow! This is a tough one. Maybe if prison terms were truly enforced and prison life was not so comfortable prison would be enough of a deterent. I have friends who work at the prison where the inmates have t.v., weight rooms, libraries, free medical, free education, computer labs; I know law-abiding citizens who don't have it so good.

 

I have worked with children at risk and had them speak with inmates at the local prison. Do you know what their advise was for the children? "If you are going to do a crime, make it a big one because prison is easy and city jail sucks, nothing to do but just sit in a cell."

 

I vote to let them colonize the moon. OK, maybe an island or Antarctica :001_smile:

[Crissy]

libraries, free medical, free education, computer labs; I know law-abiding citizens who don't have it so good.

 

 

 

So many of them will be released at some point. What sort of people would we be putting back on the streets if we didn't offer these things?

 

I don't know the statistics on rates of recidivism, but certainly there are plenty of inmates who use the education they received to become better citizens once they return to society.

[Colleen]

I would disagree with the assertion that our prisons are posh in nature. Not barbaric, but certainly not pleasant and comfortable, I think.

 

My father spent over twenty-five years working for the federal, and then state, penitentiary system. He strongly supports capital punishment and would likely concur with Nancy's description of prisons. Someone else who replied here ~ clarkacademy, I believe ~ mentioned that her father has also worked at a prison. Many of those who work there year after year are particularly disillusioned with the system and are floored by the lifestyle bestowed upon those who are incarcerated.

 

My dad operated the prison store for a long while. It boggled his mind, the requests (or in some cases, demands) he had to meet from individual prisoners. They wanted ~ and received ~ specific magazines, cigarettes, candy, and so on. He knew firsthand repeat offenders who boasted of getting a free education while locked up. He and his fellow employees encountered many instances wherein guys complained to no end about the food ~ and were rewarded with better fare, or railed about the alleged "lack" of quality medical attention, when in reality their health care went above and beyond *anything* many of us have at our disposal.

 

Is it pleasant to be locked up? No, the lack of freedom isn't pleasant. But the reality is that we have this odd hypocrisy going on. On the one hand, we're willing to execute people. On the other, while they (and others) are incarcerated, we feel compelled to respect their "rights" such that they have an increasingly decent standard of life despite the actions that landed them behind bars in the first place.

 

Many moons ago I was in the medium security federal penitentiary where my father worked, due to a medical emergency, and I can assure you "comfortable" is a more than apt description. So while I don't support capital punishment, and do support rehabilitation programs in certain circumstances, I am mad as h-e-double hockey sticks about the assumption of parole and the standard of living awarded even "lifers".

[SnowWhite]

Instead of killing capital offenders to get them out of "comfy" prisons, build some not so comfy prisons. I bet there are some labor camps in Siberia we could rent for cheap. Put them all in solitary confinement, or on chain gangs.

 

(I am not taking this lightly at all. I believe a punishment should fit a crime. I just don't agree with killing.)

[Murphy101]

So many of them will be released at some point. What sort of people would we be putting back on the streets if we didn't offer these things?

 

I don't know the statistics on rates to recidivism, but certainly there are plenty of inmates who use the education they received to become better citizens once they return to society.

 

This is why prison should be for serious offenses, I would characterize "serious" as involving the bodily harm of another person, whether intentional or otherwise. (So I would mark drunk driving as a serious offense, even if the drunk claims he didn't intend to kill anyone when he got behind the wheel.) Such people have one right only - a just legal system and very basic needs to be met. They do not have any other so called rights. They certainly do not have rights that the average citizen does not have such as: demanding certain foods, various media entertainments, a college education, demand for clothing beyond prison issue and so forth.

 

The presumption is that one can educate out bad behavior or bribe good behavior, but that does not appear to be the case. People do bad things because they danged well don't give a flip about other people or feel entitled to it. Anything given to such prisoners will not make them better citizens, just smarter criminals. It also presumes that only uneducated people commit crime, when it's probably closer to the truth to say that uneducated people are simply more likely to go to jail for it.

 

I deeply resent that evil doers are rewarded for their behavior with "rights" that my dh has to bust his bum to provide for his family. If he can't provide it, no one is going to have any sympathy for him and GIVE it to him. And should we ever find ourselves in such straits, we will be humble enough to accept whatever is given, not demand our preferred items.

 

I'm sick and tired of the sob stories and supposed illnesses being used as an excuse. There comes a point where people need to be held accountable for their choices and suffer the consequences.

 

That aside, every prison worker I've ever met said those things were not to create better citizens after release. It was to make a large number of violent people easier to manage by a small number of guards. Several dozen enforcers are in charge of keeping relative peace and safety for several hundred, if not thousand inmates. It is easier to do by keeping them fairly appeased. Simple put - it's to keep otherwise idle hands from doing the devil's work in prison.

[Parrothead]

I voted yes.

[Joanne]

I am for it. Not as a deterant, but as the punishment for violent crime with intent to harm.

[SFP]

Chrissy, you're my hero. You and Johnny Cash.

[Sahamamama]

Writing for the majority, Justice Kennedy noted, "The death penalty is not a proportional punishment for the rape of a child."

 

Justice Kennedy obviously knows nothing from personal experience about what being raped as a child can cost a person or that person's family, or he would never have written something as idiotic as this. From the perspective of the raped child, WHAT EXACTLY IS PROPORTIONAL? Ten years in an air-conditioned jail cell, complete with cable TV and well-rounded meals and gym equipment? How is that experience proportional to a child's experience of being raped?

 

Absolutely NOTHING will ever give that child back what was so violently taken.

 

I'm about to ask you to do something extremely unpleasant.

 

Look at your child or your child's photograph now. Imagine someone raping him or her. Really imagine it. Painful, in every way. Now, then, what do you consider to be proportional to THAT?

 

Justice Kennedy should understand that there are times when the rule of law should be "a life for a life," even when the victim is not killed, because the victim's life is so drastically and irrevocably altered by a consciously chosen act of violence.

 

And I do know this from personal experience.

[Colleen]

Instead of killing capital offenders to get them out of "comfy" prisons, build some not so comfy prisons.

 

I've mentioned several times that I don't support capital punishment, so I'm assuming you weren't responding specifically to me...?

[Colleen]

Well said.

[Sahamamama]

Many violent crimes are commintted under the influence of drugs or booze.

 

How does that make the crime any LESS horrific for the victim? I recommend watching "A Time to Kill."

[Murphy101]

How does that make the crime any LESS horrific for the victim? I recommend watching "A Time to Kill."

 

AMEN! I'm tired of all the excuses. You know, there was a time when people didn't know drugs and excessive drinking were bad, but unless they've been living under a rock for 50 years, anyone under 50 years of age has no one to blame for their addiction but themselves. Even so, there is LOTS of help for them to correct their addiction. It's not liek they have to stay addicted.

 

Aside from that, an addiction isn't an excuse even if they didn't know it was a bad thing to start with. Hundred (millions?) of people use drugs and get drunk, but would never hurt another human being other than themselves. (Many drunks for example never drive and drink.) Only a few drugs alter the actual personality of the user, the rest only lower inhibitions.

 

Murder and rape specificly are not crimes that most people can be induced to commit by any amount of liquer or most drugs either. There is something in most of us that deeply and profoundly recoils at commiting such base and horrid acts. Even murder in just self-defense is very hard on the average person's mental and emotional coping abilities.

[Marie in Oh]

of drugs or alcohol. What I meant is that some of these people ARE rehabilitatable. I know this to be true because my brother on drugs and alcohol was a different person than he is now-- rehabilitated after several crimes, prison, and living on the streets becasue of his addiction. That is not to say he is was not responsible for his actions-- we told him many times he must reap what he had sewn. However, he wasn't a lost cause. My point is. . . because there is no way of knowing whether a person is truly rehabilitatable, it should not be up to us or a corrupt legal system to decide life or death. Never in my post did I say that a crime was less horrific if it was done under the influence of a substance. I would think it even worse. I don't know.

[LizzyBee]

I'd like to recommend a book on this topic, John Grisham's The Innocent Man. It's a non-fiction account of a mentally disturbed man who was wrongly convicted of first degree murder and who came within a day of execution. It's not a polemic, it's just the story of this guy's life. And, of course, it's an absorbing book just like Grisham's fiction.

 

That is an awesome (and disturbing) book. Although I am still in favor of the death penalty in principle, I am much more skeptical of our justice system, and not just the courts.

[Phred]

I oppose capital punishment.

 

Which doesn't mean I don't wish to see it used sometimes. John Wayne Gacy... I almost cheered when we put him down. (notice the pronoun... "we") Point is, when we, as a society, start putting people to death... there's always the possibility that an innocent person will be put to death. Until that possibility is eliminated, I don't think the death penalty is something we should consider.

 

Is the death penalty a deterrent? Does anyone committing a crime with malice aforethought expect to be caught? Does anyone committing a crime of passion consider the consequences?

 

Perhaps being listed with countries like Saudi Arabia and China should make us think. Don't we consider them rather barbaric in their treatment of their citizens?

 

I don't know what the answer is... some criminals... Gacy again comes to mind... are very guilty of horrible crimes. A life spent in a 6 x 8 cell is worse than a quick death... no matter how I feel about it personally.

[Jennifer on Earth]

I haven't yet read many of the responses, but I agree with several responses from those who oppose the death penalty. Some (but not all) of my reasons include:

 

- I don't think it's a deterrent.

- It tends to be meted out against minorities more often than whites.

- I could never dole out the punishment myself if I sat on a jury.

- Everyone can be redeemed (this does not mean they should return to society though).

- I'd rather err on the side of life.

- It contradicts what I believe.

 

Honestly, this is not a popular position where I live and people tend to get fairly heated about it. I've even heard sermons for capital punishment preached from the pulpit (but not where I attend). I realize we're talking about life or death though - no light subject. Anyway, it's interesting to hear others' views and think about my own.

[nancypants]

- It tends to be meted out against minorities more often than whites.

 

 

I completely respect all opinions on this matter. It's such a difficult subject. But I have to point out that statistically speaking, this argument just doesn't hold true. (I went searching this morning for this information because I believed what you have said here to be true as well.)

 

This is from the Bureau of Justice:

 

Summary findings

 

Executions

 

In 2007, 42 inmates were executed, 11 fewer than in 2006.

 

Executions, 1930-2007

 

 

 

* In 2007, 42 persons in 10 States were executed -- 26 in Texas; 3 each in Alabama and Oklahoma; 2 each in Indiana, Ohio, and Tennessee; and 1 each in South Dakota, Georgia, South Carolina, and Arizona.

 

* Of persons executed in 2007:

-- 28 were white

-- 14 were black

 

* All 42 inmates executed in 2007 were men.

 

* Lethal injection was used in 41 executions in 2007; 1 execution was by electrocution.

 

* Thirty-eight States and the Federal government in 2006 had capital statutes.

 

Prisoners under sentence of death

 

The number of prisoners under sentence of death decreased for the sixth consecutive year in 2005.

 

Prisoners on death row, 1953-2006

 

 

* At yearend 2006, 37 States and the Federal prison system held 3,228 prisoners under sentence of death, 17 fewer than at yearend 2005.

 

Since the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976, white inmates have made up more than half of the number under sentence of death.

 

Prisoners on death row by race, 1968-2006

 

 

* Of persons under sentence of death in 2006:

-- 1,802 were white

-- 1,352 were black

-- 28 were American Indian

-- 35 were Asian

-- 11 were of unknown race.

 

* Fifty-four women were under a sentence of death at yearend 2006.

 

* The 358 Hispanic inmates under sentence of death at yearend 2006 accounted for 11% of inmates with a known ethnicity.

 

* Among inmates under sentence of death and with available criminal histories at yearend 2006:

-- nearly 2 in 3 had a prior felony conviction

-- 1 in 12 had a prior homicide conviction.

 

* Among persons for whom arrest information was available, the average age at time of arrest was 28; 1 in 9 inmates were age 19 or younger at the time of arrest.

 

* At yearend 2006, the youngest inmate under sentence of death was 20; the oldest was 91.

[beansprouts]

Well done, Nancy.

 

If I forget to catch up with you tomorrow, remember I was thinking of you ;)

[nancypants]

Well done, Nancy.

 

Thanks. :)

 

If I forget to catch up with you tomorrow, remember I was thinking of you ;)

 

I'm clueless here. I have no idea what you're talking about. (probably because I'm a numbskull... and maybe partly because I'm going on very little sleep due to barfing kids... which begs the question... why do my kids always get barfy when my husband leaves town???) :001_huh:

[SnowWhite]

 

I've mentioned several times that I don't support capital punishment, so I'm assuming you weren't responding specifically to me...?

 

No, I view the threads in linear form and didn't even realize I did that. I always forget there is more than one way to "reply". Sorry.

[Jennifer on Earth]

I completely respect all opinions on this matter. It's such a difficult subject. But I have to point out that statistically speaking, this argument just doesn't hold true. (I went searching this morning for this information because I believed what you have said here to be true as well.)

 

If I recall, what I heard/read was that for the same offenses, minorities were more likely to be given the death penalty than whites. I think my wording was unclear. I don't think minorities are executed more often than whites, but that they were more likely to be sentenced and executed than whites (for very similar offenses). I could be wrong though. Even though I threw my reason out here, I'm do not have present statistics to back me up. My thoughts were informed from things I heard at various places and at various times.

 

I appreciate you pointing this out though. I should check into this reason myself. If I'm proven wrong on this point, I will certainly drop it from my "reasons" against the death penalty.

[Stacie]

I have somewhat of a personal stake in the ruling yesterday, and honestly my feelings span from one end of the spectrum to the other. I live in the state in which this punishment has been overturned. And I have a close relative awaiting trial for such a crime. The thought that he may be put to death for his crime leaves me completely sick, but the actual crime itself eclipses those feelings. I am a mom and I see a hurt child and want to take someone out, and I can't fathom what the victim or her family is going through. Then I see the hurt in his mom's eyes, and think she's a mom too; the mom who loved her baby, cared for him, patched up his boo-boos and ultimately watched him grow into a monster. And my heart aches for all.

 

How do I feel about his potential punishment? Well, we are a society of laws and the law clearly states the sexual assault of a child under twelve in the state of La is a capital offense. If he knew he was committing a crime with the potential for death then he should receive the punishment given to him (He hasn't gone to trial so I don't know the verdict, let alone the punishment. I'm generalizing here.). If the state lawmakers along with a majority of the state's citizens deem it an appropriate punishment, then I'm not sure Justice Kennedy's opinion of disproportionality was appropriate either. A court system that legislates is overstepping. Due to the increased publicity of this decision, I'm curious to see what changes take place in the laws for crimes against children.

 

I do feel that we, as a society, tend to be much too focused on the rights of the criminals. I see too often how they become portrayed as victims only acting as they did due to various extraneous factors. I hate to hear that person X did the crime because of his drug use, childhood abuse, neglect, alcoholism, gang affiliation, etc. I don't know if capital punishment is truly a deterrent to criminal behavior, but I genuinely believe that a move to having people take responsibility for their OWN actions (as opposed to making excuses for their actions) followed by the appropriate, proportionate punishment could be a much better deterrent.

 

I didn't vote, because my feelings are all over the map on this issue. :confused:

[Jennifer on Earth]

Okay, I completely messed up the "quote" part of my response. I was trying to quote Nancypants and I managed to mess it up. I'm really slow with technical matters. (And yes, even this board falls under "technical matters" for me.)

[Colleen]

No, I view the threads in linear form and didn't even realize I did that. I always forget there is more than one way to "reply". Sorry.

 

Just checkin'!:) I wondered if mayhaps I came across as a bit confuzzed in the discussion...Although I oppose the death penalty, I agree with some of the comments here from those who don't share my stance.

[Murphy101]

If he knew he was committing a crime with the potential for death then he should receive the punishment given to him

 

 

ignorance of the law does not excuse one from it's justice.

 

I don't know how I feel about applying the death penalty to a non-death crime, altho I agree something of the victim dies in the case of child sexual abuse. I do beleive VERY strongly that they should never know another free day in society for the rest of their lives. This is something I do not feel can be rehabilitated.

 

rehabilitation keeps being referenced, but I don't buy that arguement.

You cannot force someone to change their lives or rehabilitate. Oh you can force them into rehab and get them off the drugs by refusing opportunity, but if they want it - they will get it. Time and time again we see this. Heck drugs are known to be prevalent INSIDE many prisons!

 

Aside from that, rehabilitation is not what prisons are for. They are a punishment. Just as the death penalty is a penalty - not revenge. If it was about revenge, we wouldn't need a judge to met it out.

 

People don't go to prison for rehabilitation. They end up in prison because they refused to avail themselves of rehabilitation options prior to commiting a crime. Do we really believe these people didn't have a clue their life was going in the toilet until the bars shut behind them? Really? I have a hard time believing that. By the time they end up in prison they are often well aware they have a drug problem and would rather feed it than change it.

 

This is going a bit off topic...

 

It's gone from death penalty to prison in general and I think the two are very different issues. Both need serious reworking to be effective at the main goal - keeping society safe. But how to manage that goal is very different in my opinion.

[Colleen]

These stats have to be considered alongside other information. If you'll pardon the lame pun, it isn't as "black and white" as these numbers make it appear. I've not claimed in this discussion (perhaps others have) that there are more blacks sitting on death row, or more blacks executed; I know stats don't support that claim. The aspect of potential racism has to address not only the race of the defendant, but the race of the victim. Take a look at the excerpts below from a recent study to see my point.

 

* * * * * * *

 

Blacks convicted of killing whites are not only more likely than other killers to receive a death sentence – they are also more likely to actually be executed, a new study suggests.

 

But the findings showed that African Americans on death row for killing nonwhites are less likely to be executed than other condemned prisoners.

 

“Examining who survives on death row is important because less than 10 percent of those given the death sentence ever get executed,†said David Jacobs, co-author of the study and professor of sociology at Ohio State University.

 

“The disparity in execution rates based on the race of victims suggests our justice system places greater value on white lives, even after sentences are handed down.â€

 

This apparently is the first study to examine whether the race of murder victims affects the probability that a convicted killer gets the ultimate punishment, Jacobs said.

 

He conducted the study with Zhenchao Qian, professor of sociology at Ohio State, Jason Carmichael of McGill University and Stephanie Kent of Cleveland State University. Their results appear in the August 2007 issue of the American Sociological Review.

 

The study examined outcomes of 1,560 people sentenced to death in 16 states from 1973 to 2002. These 16 states were chosen because they had the complete data that the researchers needed for the study.

 

Other research has shown that the great majority of those sentenced to death have their sentences overturned in appeal, Jacobs said. But little is known about the factors that lead some condemned prisons to be executed.

 

There is more than a two-fold greater risk that an African American who killed a white person will be executed than there is for a white person who killed a non-white victim.

 

“The fact that blacks who kill non-whites actually are less likely to be executed than blacks who kill whites shows there is a strong racial bias here,†Jacobs said. “Blacks are most likely to pay the ultimate price when their victims are white.â€

 

Hispanics who killed whites were also more likely to be executed than were whites who killed non-whites, the study showed. But the risk of execution were not as strong for Hispanics who killed whites as they were for blacks who killed whites.

[Fourmother]

I voted no, though this is a complicated question for me. Here are some of my thoughts:

 

-Killing is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. Execution cannot make victims whole. This is the standard "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" response.

 

-DNA has exonerated many people over the last couple decades. How many innocent people have been put to death before the advent of this technology we may never know. How is it ethical for us to put people to death when we know there's a chance they are not guilty? Isn't that murder, too?

 

-Like Colleen's article suggests, race and class (of defendants and victims) have historically determined who will be charged with a capital crime, and who will be executed. Nowadays class is an even bigger factor in determining the quality of representation a defendant is likely to receive. In our justice system, innocence doesn't mean much if you can't afford a good attorney.

 

-Related to previous thought... I'm not a lawyer, but to the lay person there doesn't appear to be much consistency in which crimes are labeled capital offenses. It seems completely subjective, like the case in question. It bothers me that raping certain types of victims could be a punishable by death. Why would society's interest in killing a perpetrator be greater if my daughter were raped rather than my grandmother or even me. Would kidnapping, beating and torturing a child not be a capital offense if there was no sexual assault? Would raping a 17 yo be a capital offense while violating an 18 yo would be punishable by prison? There's something sick and twisted about a society which gorges itself on sexual imagery, sexually objectifies its women and children, then creates this puritanical pretense around certain forms of sexual violence in its justice system. Yes, child rape is beyond heinous. So are drunk driving and lots of other kinds of violent crimes against men, women and children which are never subject to the death penalty. Where's the justice in that?

 

On the other hand...

-I don't really want to pay for food, clothing, medical care and housing for life long convicts who make no real contribution to society, and are actually a threat to it. I know this is a responsibility any society governed by the rule of law must bear, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

 

-I have the luxury of thinking of this from a mostly intellectual point of view. If my child, my mother or myself fell victim to violent crime all bets would be off. I would want to give the bastard the needle myself. In this I recognize that I am totally inconsistent.

[KidsHappen]

which begs the question... why do my kids always get barfy when my husband leaves town???) :001_huh:

 

The same reason I always get sick when my hubby leaves town. :)

[sdWTMer]

This is where I stand. I wish it was carried out equally and swiftly across the board. I think the posh nature of prisons now days make a total joke out of the idea of justice... not to mention how easy it is to get parole or early release because of overcrowding.

 

I do agree with capital punishment. And I also love Sheriff Joe Arpaio

in Arizona. I love the fact that criminals are put in tent cities. I love the chain gangs. I love that they are fed on the cheap! :D

[SusanG]

I did my masters thesis on the impact of race on capital sentencing in LA, and I found that one of the most significant factors in sentencing outcome was race of the VICTIM, rather than race of the offender. It's a less obvious form of disparity based on race, and one that's not discussed nearly as much.

 

 

I completely respect all opinions on this matter. It's such a difficult subject. But I have to point out that statistically speaking, this argument just doesn't hold true. (I went searching this morning for this information because I believed what you have said here to be true as well.)

 

This is from the Bureau of Justice:

 

Summary findings

 

Executions

 

In 2007, 42 inmates were executed, 11 fewer than in 2006.

 

Executions, 1930-2007

 

 

 

* In 2007, 42 persons in 10 States were executed -- 26 in Texas; 3 each in Alabama and Oklahoma; 2 each in Indiana, Ohio, and Tennessee; and 1 each in South Dakota, Georgia, South Carolina, and Arizona.

 

* Of persons executed in 2007:

-- 28 were white

-- 14 were black

 

* All 42 inmates executed in 2007 were men.

 

* Lethal injection was used in 41 executions in 2007; 1 execution was by electrocution.

 

* Thirty-eight States and the Federal government in 2006 had capital statutes.

 

Prisoners under sentence of death

 

The number of prisoners under sentence of death decreased for the sixth consecutive year in 2005.

 

Prisoners on death row, 1953-2006

 

 

* At yearend 2006, 37 States and the Federal prison system held 3,228 prisoners under sentence of death, 17 fewer than at yearend 2005.

 

Since the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976, white inmates have made up more than half of the number under sentence of death.

 

Prisoners on death row by race, 1968-2006

 

 

* Of persons under sentence of death in 2006:

-- 1,802 were white

-- 1,352 were black

-- 28 were American Indian

-- 35 were Asian

-- 11 were of unknown race.

 

* Fifty-four women were under a sentence of death at yearend 2006.

 

* The 358 Hispanic inmates under sentence of death at yearend 2006 accounted for 11% of inmates with a known ethnicity.

 

* Among inmates under sentence of death and with available criminal histories at yearend 2006:

-- nearly 2 in 3 had a prior felony conviction

-- 1 in 12 had a prior homicide conviction.

 

* Among persons for whom arrest information was available, the average age at time of arrest was 28; 1 in 9 inmates were age 19 or younger at the time of arrest.

 

* At yearend 2006, the youngest inmate under sentence of death was 20; the oldest was 91.

[3lilreds in NC]

The government bears the sword. They have the responsibility to maintain justice and order in a society (however faulty they may be in carrying out that responsibility). I think the verse you quote is out of context.

 

Jo

 

I disagree that I quoted out of context. The verse is taken from some of Paul's instructions on how to treat others, and it was originally found in Deuteronomy 32:35 - God promises to punish those who have turned away from him, a "warped and wicked generation."

 

Here is more of the passage from Romans 12:

 

 

 

Love

 

9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

 

 

 

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

 

 

 

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d]says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

 

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;

 

if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.

 

In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."[e] 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

 

I agree that the government is in place to maintain order. They can lock people away. I do not believe, though, that it is appropriate for them to decide whose life is worth living and whose is not. Life is a gift from God, period, and is His to decide to take away.

 

Yes, we need to submit to governmental authority and if we break a law we submit to the consequences. I believe that Biblical teaching is clear, though, that we are called to love our enemies, and show them the love of Christ so that they have every opportunity to be saved. God doesn't want anyone to die not knowing Him, even those who commit heinous crimes. He created each one of us and loves us all the same, no matter what our sin.

 

I heard an amazing sermon after the terrorist attacks of 9/11 in which our pastor reminded us that God's mercy is available even to Osama Bin Laden. That if he came to our church and repented, he would assure him of Christ's forgiveness - and then promptly turn him over to the authorities. I can't think of anyone I'd like to see die a slow, painful death more than that man - but his life is not for me to do with as I choose. The government is representative of me. I do not think the government should be able to take a person's life. I'm trying to think how to explain what I mean here.... "the government" is made up of individuals and they apply punishment to individuals. It's easy to look at "the government" as a faceless entity and "criminals" the same way; but when you get right down to it, every person that makes bad choices is still a person and while I can condemn their sin, I cannot condemn their soul.

 

We are all broken. Can you imagine how broken and hurting a person must be to commit rape or murder? Those kinds of hideous acts go against the very nature of being human, without bringing God into it at all. I do not know how a person so depraved can be reached by human means even; only the love of God could heal what is in a soul so tortured. *I* would like to see them suffer. A lot. But it is not up to me.

[Perry]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jennifer on Earth

- It tends to be meted out against minorities more often than whites.

 

I completely respect all opinions on this matter. It's such a difficult subject. But I have to point out that statistically speaking, this argument just doesn't hold true. (I went searching this morning for this information because I believed what you have said here to be true as well.)

The key difference is that it's more *likely*, rather than more common. About 74% of the US population is white, and about 12% of the population is black, but the proportion of blacks receiving the death penalty is far higher than that.

 

More info at

http://www.aclu.org/capital/unequal/10389pub20030226.html

[Murphy101]

I do agree with capital punishment. And I also love Sheriff Joe Arpaio

in Arizona. I love the fact that criminals are put in tent cities. I love the chain gangs. I love that they are fed on the cheap! :D

 

see now, I don't know that I'm thrilled with tent cicities and chain gangs....

 

not for moral reasons or because I think it unjust for the crimes, but because I would think that would pose a serious security risk. it's hard enough for guards to control and keep an eye on the inmates in an enclosed prison situation. I think tent cities and chain gangs are fine for maybe lesser crimes? But I sure don't want to risk a murderer or child molester getting a chance to escape....

 

that's my only concern there.

 

oh wait no it's not!

 

I expect gov't tax paid for work to be done professionally and to get a quality result.... I question that if it's being done by any yahoo prisoner??

 

Also, it takes major community cooperation to get a chain gang going... take farm work? would you want them working on your farm or your neighbors farm?

 

again...

 

just pondering how it could actually be more cost effective and the security issues it may involve.

[Peela]

It would be interesting to break the poll down to get an idea of whether those who are opposed also live in non-death penalty states.

 

Yes, it would. I am often amazed when this issue comes up that so many people apparently support it.

I don't think you would get anything like a majority supporting it here in Australia. Like the gun issue. We don't have the death penalty and we don't have guns. And we (by far a majority) prefer it that way, and from this position it looks barbaric to have laws that support guns or the death penalty. But would we feel the same if we were born and raised in a different culture? I think there is probably less independent thinking and more cultural influence than we generally realise or would like to admit- both for and against.

[HRAAB]

Yes, it would. I am often amazed when this issue comes up that so many people apparently support it.

I don't think you would get anything like a majority supporting it here in Australia. Like the gun issue. We don't have the death penalty and we don't have guns. And we (by far a majority) prefer it that way, and from this position it looks barbaric to have laws that support guns or the death penalty. But would we feel the same if we were born and raised in a different culture? I think there is probably less independent thinking and more cultural influence than we generally realise or would like to admit- both for and against.

 

I am opposed to the death penalty. I waited awhile to view the results and have to admit I'm amazed that so many support taking human life - because that's how I view it. And I'm always surprised when Christians support the death penalty. As I think about it, in my local circle, the most support I've heard for the death penalty comes from Christians. I do not mean to start any argument; just my observations.

 

I've always wanted to visit Australia...

 

Janet

[Phred]

I am opposed to the death penalty. I waited awhile to view the results and have to admit I'm amazed that so many support taking human life - because that's how I view it. And I'm always surprised when Christians support the death penalty. As I think about it, in my local circle, the most support I've heard for the death penalty comes from Christians. I do not mean to start any argument; just my observations.

 

I've always wanted to visit Australia...

 

Janet

I can't quite grasp it either. These are the same people that vehemently oppose abortion of any kind. In the responses the word "innocent" comes up more often than not. I simply can't reconcile the "Christian" values of save embryos at all costs and kill criminals. In between there's the issue of gun ownership with the express purpose of killing another human being. And it's not, "I'm afraid, I need to have a gun..." It's almost, "Comon bad guys, I dare ya!"

 

I dunno. Perhaps Australia has it right. Minus the spiders.

[Murphy101]

hmmm, I'm pro gun ownership because I believe a citizenship without the ability to fight for themselves risks dictatorship and because I beleive every citizen has the right to defend themselves and because I don't believe keeping guns out of law abiding hands keeps it out of criminal hands. But I do not own a gun.

 

I'm against the death penalty because I do not believe we have a system in place to guarantee a fair and just disbursement of such a sentence on what I feel would be the VERY RARE occassion where it should qualify. But I live in a state that uses the death penalty.

 

To compare applying the death penalty for a person who of their own choosing and enjoyment chose to be a vicious serial murderer (for example) with the murder of a baby for convience is comparing apples and broccolli. And yes, I believe an embryo is a baby and abortion is wrong.

 

I'm fine if the death penalty is abolished, but prison is not for rehabiliation - it's for punishment.

[SnowWhite]

hmmm, I'm pro gun ownership because I believe a citizenship without the ability to fight for themselves risks dictatorship and because I beleive every citizen has the right to defend themselves and because I don't believe keeping guns out of law abiding hands keeps it out of criminal hands. But I do not own a gun.

 

I'm against the death penalty because I do not believe we have a system in place to guarantee a fair and just disbursement of such a sentence on what I feel would be the VERY RARE occassion where it should qualify. But I live in a state that uses the death penalty.

 

To compare applying the death penalty for a person who of their own choosing and enjoyment chose to be a vicious serial murderer (for example) with the murder of a baby for convience is comparing apples and broccolli. And yes, I believe an embryo is a baby and abortion is wrong.

 

I'm fine if the death penalty is abolished, but prison is not for rehabiliation - it's for punishment.

 

ITA, Martha, and I wonder what our poll would look like if we had four choices.... pro capital punishment/anti abortion, pro capital punishment/pro choice, anti capital punishment/anti abortion, pro capital punishment/pro choice.

 

I find it EVEN MORE ironic that people who think it's fine to end the existence of an unborn child apparently think it's AWFUL to execute a legally convicted criminal who is guilty of unspeakable acts. (While I oppose both abortion and capital punishment, I won't pretend my stomach turns more sour at the thought of a human monster's demise than at the removing of a child from the womb).