Joy Hakim or Howard Zinn?

[NotSoObvious]

As a supplement to SOTW 3 for 5th grade?

 

Which have you liked? Young People's History looks easier to read (I like the pages and the simplicity) but History of US looks a little more engaging. We are continuing with SOTW because my girls eat it up.

[Farrar]

What do you want from the supplement? Zinn gives a certain perspective - I think it's better as a US history supplement. With SOTW, it seems like it might be a bit strong without any balance. But Hakim's books are LONG. I don't know that you could use it as a supplement very well because of the length.

[NotSoObvious]

Well, my thought was that we would do SOTW together, as usual, then they would use the other book(s) as independent reading, which we could use for narrations and outlining, etc.

 

Will you explain what you mean by a certain perspective? What do you mean by balance?

[Chrysalis Academy]

I'm at the same spot, using SOTW 3 and Zinn with a rising 5th grader. Instead of Hakim, though, I'm using The Making of America by Paul Johnston. It's the "Hakim alternative" that SWB mentions in SWB. I like it a lot better for our purposes; for one thing, it is a single volume, hitting the high points of Am Hist. Trying to fit in all the Hakim volumes would have been way too much.

 

My second reason is just that, try as I might, I can't *like* the Hakim books. I just find them fussy, and busy, and hard to read. Johnston gives me a much more straightforward and pithy coverage of Am Hist, and it really complements SOTW & Zinn - I feel like we are getting pretty deep coverage from a variety of perspectives without too much repetition.

 

ETA: I don't want to speak for Farrar, but Zinn would definitely be considered to be coming from a left-of-center perspective, and I read that others feel that Hakim is biased in that way as well. I haven't gotten too far into Johnston yet, but it strikes me as not noticeably biased one way or the other. For us this is good, Johnston gives us our "straight" history, and Zinn provides the sociopolitical perspective that fits with my worldview, so I feel like this is a good balance for our family.

Edited May 5, 2012 by rroberts707

[Spy Car]

Well, my thought was that we would do SOTW together, as usual, then they would use the other book(s) as independent reading, which we could use for narrations and outlining, etc.

 

Will you explain what you mean by a certain perspective? What do you mean by balance?

 

Zinn is excellent for presenting the "other side" of history, especially the stories of those usually ignored, underrepresented, or otherwise disempowered. So his is a fine "antidote" to more mainstream history books. But alone Zinn presents a more critical vision of American history than a 5th Grader might be able to contextualize without a wider perspective.

 

I've only read 4 volumes of the multi-volume series by James Lincoln Collier and Christopher Collier called "The Drama of American History" but I vastly preferred it to Joy Hakim. The writing is sharper and smarter, and the authors do a masterful job of laying out the best cases for both sides in the great disputes in American History in ways children this age can well understand. The DoAH, unlike Zinn, aims at being fair-minded and balanced. Zinn's purpose it to teach the stories that are usually repressed or ignored.

 

Bill

[EKS]

The Zinn books would be a better supplement in that they are shorter and far less dense. The Hakim books are beyond the scope of a supplement, but if you're interested in using them, I *highly* recommend the concise version (from K12; you can get it on Amazon). It is *far* superior in terms of readability and layout to the original version and well worth the price of admission.

[KristenR]

Zinn is excellent for presenting the "other side" of history, especially the stories of those usually ignored, underrepresented, or otherwise disempowered. So his is a fine "antidote" to more mainstream history books. But alone Zinn presents a more critical vision of American history than a 5th Grader might be able to contextualize without a wider perspective.

 

I've only read 4 volumes of the multi-volume series by James Lincoln Collier and Christopher Collier called "The Drama of American History" but I vastly preferred it to Joy Hakim. The writing is sharper and smarter, and the authors do a masterful job of laying out the best cases for both sides in the great disputes in American History in ways children this age can well understand. The DoAH, unlike Zinn, aims at being fair-minded and balanced. Zinn's purpose it to teach the stories that are usually repressed or ignored.

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

[Guest ERRADDOC]

It seems that the gist of Zinn's "history" is pretty much this: our founding fathers were bad, the people who built the USA were evil, capitalism is the blame for everything, and every war we ever fought was for either imperialist ends or to cover our hypocrisy.

 

The Freedom of Information act reveals that:

1. Howard Zinn was a formal member of the Communist Party USA.

2. He taught a class of "Basic Marxism" at headquarters in Brooklyn, NY advising his students that the basic teachings of Marx and Lenin "were sound and should be adhered to by those present."

3. Howard Zinn was a Pro-Castro activist and backed radical groups such as the Socialist Workers Party (SWP), the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS), Progressive Labor Party, and the Black Panther Party.

 

Michael Kazin, Professor in the Department of History, Georgetown University, stated:

"Zinn reduces the past to a Manichean fable" whose failure to explain adequately why most Americans accepted the legitimacy of the capitalist republic "is grounded in a premise better suited to a conspiracy-monger's web site than to a work of scholarship."

 

Zinn himself once declared: "Objectivity is impossible, and it is undesirable"

 

There are many well written essays which expound upon the intellectual fraud of Howard Zinn.

 

Needless to say, he isn't my cup of tea.

[Halcyon]

It seems that the gist of Zinn's "history" is pretty much this: our founding fathers were bad, the people who built the USA were evil, capitalism is the blame for everything, and every war we ever fought was for either imperialist ends or to cover our hypocrisy.

 

The Freedom of Information act reveals that:

1. Howard Zinn was a formal member of the Communist Party USA.

2. He taught a class of "Basic Marxism" at headquarters in Brooklyn, NY advising his students that the basic teachings of Marx and Lenin "were sound and should be adhered to by those present."

3. Howard Zinn was a Pro-Castro activist and backed radical groups such as the Socialist Workers Party (SWP), the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS), Progressive Labor Party, and the Black Panther Party.

 

Michael Kazin, Professor in the Department of History, Georgetown University, stated:

"Zinn reduces the past to a Manichean fable" whose failure to explain adequately why most Americans accepted the legitimacy of the capitalist republic "is grounded in a premise better suited to a conspiracy-monger's web site than to a work of scholarship."

 

Zinn himself once declared: "Objectivity is impossible, and it is undesirable"

 

There are many well written essays which expound upon the intellectual fraud of Howard Zinn.

 

Needless to say, he isn't my cup of tea.

 

Welcome, newbie! :glare:

 

FWIW, I love Zinn and read parts of it to my 4th grader this year. We will revisit in a few years.

[dharmacat]

Thanks for the resource tip! I will investigate this one.

[Farrar]

Welcome, newbie! :glare:

 

FWIW, I love Zinn and read parts of it to my 4th grader this year. We will revisit in a few years.

 

Seriously. :glare:

 

I think everyone should read Zinn at some point in their education, but I think it's fine to save until middle or high school too. I wouldn't use it as independent reading for most 5th graders. It's a book that simply begs discussion. Likewise, the Hakim is too detailed for most 5th graders to read all the way through and outline on their own. From what I've seen, the Drama of American History books that Spycar and others love so much are also really good, but also probably too detailed for the purposes of the OP.

 

It's pretty bland, but if all you want is a little US history and something that can be done totally independently, how about something like The Complete Book of US History?

[dharmacat]

Thanks for the resource tip! I will investigate this one.

(Last message was to SpyCar. Sorry--still learning this site)

[Spy Car]

(Last message was to SpyCar. Sorry--still learning this site)

 

Check your library for DoAH. It seems libraries were the big market for these books. While you might not read them all, you might want to hit key topics. The ones on the Revolutionary War, the rise of Federalism, and the Civil War were really outstanding IMO.

 

Bill

[Walking-Iris]

Welcome, newbie! :glare:

 

FWIW, I love Zinn and read parts of it to my 4th grader this year. We will revisit in a few years.

 

 

:iagree: I adore the man. Those "reveals" are really not earth shattering news. And Zinn is a very important influence in our historical time period and so is worthy of study for that much as well. He is a part of history himself if that makes sense.

 

As far as the Zinn/Hakim book question?---both. Hakim for the younger set and Zinn as they mature. I personally think it's best to present US history in basic non controversial form at first and then to revisit topics and build onto the foundation with more mature issues. My personal goals for my kids are that by the time they are graduated they have a thirst for history knowledge, a desire to keep learning it throughout their lives and that they have a strong foundation to support them as they continue learning. The only successful way to learn history is to look at all the perspectives of the players involved.

[Alte Veste Academy]

As far as the Zinn/Hakim book question?---both. Hakim for the younger set and Zinn as they mature.

 

...

 

The only successful way to learn history is to look at all the perspectives of the players involved.

 

:iagree: This is exactly what I would recommend. I like Hakim (especially on audio, available from Audible), but personally found the Drama of American history snooze-worthy. As is always the case, you would be best served by reading a bit from all of your options to see what will meet your needs.

 

I am saving Zinn for high school. We will read it concurrently with William Bennett's A Patriot's History for a good lesson in perspective. I am so looking forward to the many opportunities we will have to compare and contrast. :tongue_smilie:

[Spy Car]

:iagree: This is exactly what I would recommend. I like Hakim (especially on audio, available from Audible), but personally found the Drama of American history snooze-worthy. As is always the case, you would be best served by reading a bit from all of your options to see what will meet your needs.

 

I am saving Zinn for high school. We will read it concurrently with William Bennett's A Patriot's History for a good lesson in perspective. I am so looking forward to the many opportunities we will have to compare and contrast. :tongue_smilie:

 

You thought DoAH was "snooze-worthy?" Really? Which one(s) did you read?

 

Bill

[Alte Veste Academy]

You thought DoAH was "snooze-worthy?" Really? Which one(s) did you read?

 

Bill

 

Don't recall. I bought up seven volumes, sight unseen, based on the recommendations here. Read as much as I could of them before succumbing to a nap. ;) :D (If you really must know which ones I had, you can ask WendyK, as I traded them for some Killgallon and LfC. :tongue_smilie:)

 

ETA: And I know you know this but the ;) :D mean I am kidding. I did read a reasonable amount from each book, definitely enough to judge that they were not going to work for us. I did not find them engaging at all.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Alte Veste Academy

[Spy Car]

Don't recall. I bought up seven volumes, sight unseen, based on the recommendations here. Read as much as I could of them before succumbing to a nap. ;) :D (If you really must know which ones I had, you can ask WendyK, as I traded them for some Killgallon and LfC. :tongue_smilie:)

 

Maybe she'll find them snooze-worthy too and ship 'em off to me :D

 

A man can dream :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

[Alte Veste Academy]

Maybe she'll find them snooze-worthy too and ship 'em off to me :D

 

A man can dream :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

 

I have heard (on a logic board thread about DOAH) that the earlier books are better than the later books. I believe most of mine were from the second half of American history since that is the year we were studying when I first heard about them. I hope you don't become disenchanted as you move through the volumes, sincerely.

[CupOCoffee]

Sorry to intrude, but I am wondering if you are all talking about the same book that I recently discovered as a free download...I downloaded it at work, so I can't get to it from here and I can't remember the site that I got it from. "A People's History of the World" right?

 

I have not looked it over yet, but now I am intrigued and I will print some of it out next week.

 

~coffee~

[Spy Car]

Sorry to intrude, but I am wondering if you are all talking about the same book that I recently discovered as a free download...I downloaded it at work, so I can't get to it from here and I can't remember the site that I got it from. "A People's History of the World" right?

 

I have not looked it over yet, but now I am intrigued and I will print some of it out next week.

 

~coffee~

 

It is a different book. "A People's History of the World" was written by Chris Harman as an attempt to do for World History what Zinn did for US History. Zinn praised the book and wrote an introduction.

 

I have not read it myself.

 

Bill

[CupOCoffee]

It is a different book. "A People's History of the World" was written by Chris Harman as an attempt to do for World History what Zinn did for US History. Zinn praised the book and wrote an introduction.

 

I have not read it myself.

 

Bill

 

Oooops, I made a typo: I did mean "A People's History of the United States"; been poking around on Google and it seems to be the book you are talking about.

 

Thanks!

 

~coffee~

[moonlight]

what about these two books???

 

http://www.amazon.com/Lies-My-Teacher-Told-Everything/dp/0743296281/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336292918&sr=8-1

 

http://www.amazon.com/Lies-Across-America-Historic-Sites/dp/074329629X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_c

 

i have younger kids, but plan on using these at some point when we study u.s. history...

 

seema

[Carrie12345]

I've started reading a few excerpts from A Young People's History to my 3rdstore and 4thI graders this year and expect to continue doing so for a few more. My son read it independently at the end of 7th, but we didn't spend nearly enough time discussing it for me to believe he truly understood it.

 

I'm figuring on 8thmy grade for the girls, with the standard version in the later half of high school.

[NotSoObvious]

Zinn is excellent for presenting the "other side" of history, especially the stories of those usually ignored, underrepresented, or otherwise disempowered. So his is a fine "antidote" to more mainstream history books. But alone Zinn presents a more critical vision of American history than a 5th Grader might be able to contextualize without a wider perspective.

 

I've only read 4 volumes of the multi-volume series by James Lincoln Collier and Christopher Collier called "The Drama of American History" but I vastly preferred it to Joy Hakim. The writing is sharper and smarter, and the authors do a masterful job of laying out the best cases for both sides in the great disputes in American History in ways children this age can well understand. The DoAH, unlike Zinn, aims at being fair-minded and balanced. Zinn's purpose it to teach the stories that are usually repressed or ignored.

 

Bill

 

 

OK. So, I will check out the DoAH books. Great to hear about the Zinn book. I didn't realize any of that. I think (even more now) that it will be something we read in a higher grade, then.

 

Thanks!

[NotSoObvious]

what about these two books???

 

http://www.amazon.com/Lies-My-Teacher-Told-Everything/dp/0743296281/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336292918&sr=8-1

 

http://www.amazon.com/Lies-Across-America-Historic-Sites/dp/074329629X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_c

 

i have younger kids, but plan on using these at some point when we study u.s. history...

 

seema

 

I read Lies My Teacher Told Me in college. It was GREAT. I still have it somewhere. I didn't think about using it, but it's probably more suited for high school (at least for my kids).

[Farrar]

I've used Lies My Teacher Told Me with middle schoolers - it has a lot of the same information and perspective as Zinn, but it's an easier read... Though I used it before the young readers edition came out. It's not elementary level stuff for the most part though.

[stripe]

Maybe she'll find them snooze-worthy too and ship 'em off to me :D

 

A man can dream :tongue_smilie:

Too late! I played the matchmaker and found someone who wanted them from her so she sold them! I am still rather tickled about that one. :auto:

 

Anyone who wants to buy them, pay attention because quite a few of the books cover various portions of the roughly 1850-1950 time period.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Welcome, newbie! :glare:

 

FWIW, I love Zinn and read parts of it to my 4th grader this year. We will revisit in a few years.

 

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

I agree this is not something I'd turn an upper elementary kid loose with by themselves. We read it aloud and discuss, after reading the corresponding discussion from SOTW or Making of America. It has led to some of the very best, richest discussions we have had about history. I expect that she will read the "grown-up" version on her own in high school, but the YPH is perfect for read alouds for a middle/jr high schooler who wants to get "behind the story".

 

I also really like Lies My Teacher Told Me. We haven't read from it together, but having read it myself, I'm better able to pose good questions that lead to great discussions. This kind of history reading is how we are incorporating pre-logic and critical thinking skills/analysis into our history study, rather than treating it as a separate subject. I think this is an ideal Logic-Stage activity.

[Pen]

:bigear: trying to make decisions on US history materials too.

[nmoira]

If you're only looking for a supplement, check out Steve Sheinkin's US history books. The scope is not comprehensive (I do hope he writes more), but they are witty (though not inappropriately so... there's no "lighter side of slavery" here) and engaging.

 

King George: What Was His Problem?: The Whole Hilarious Story of the Revolution

Two Miserable Presidents: Everything Your Schoolbooks Didn't Tell You About the Civil War

Which Way to the Wild West?

 

and maybe throw in:

The Notorious Benedict Arnold: A True Story of Adventure, Heroism & Treachery

[stripe]

I've found Jean Fritz's books to be helpful as well.

[Alte Veste Academy]

If you're only looking for a supplement, check out Steve Sheinkin's US history books. The scope is not comprehensive (I do hope he writes more), but they are witty (though not inappropriately so... there's no "lighter side of slavery" here) and engaging.

 

King George: What Was His Problem?: The Whole Hilarious Story of the Revolution

Two Miserable Presidents: Everything Your Schoolbooks Didn't Tell You About the Civil War

Which Way to the Wild West?

and maybe throw in:

The Notorious Benedict Arnold: A True Story of Adventure, Heroism & Treachery

 

:iagree: These are wonderful books. I would be thrilled if he wrote a two volume history of the U.S. (I think Aubrey actually contacted him and asked him to do it last year. :lol:) His books are heavy on details but incredibly engaging and would even make for great independent reading. Sheinkin's books were my favorites from when we studied American history. I am so glad I got them in hardcover.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Alte Veste Academy

[edeemarie]

Although my children are a little younger than yours, we are using American History Stories (vol. 1-4) by Mara Pratt. They are just nice stories that we can easily read, about one a day. My children are really enjoying these stories! My only problem is that they stop at WWI since they were written a long time ago, so I'll have to find something else when we get to that point. But for now they are great!

[Alte Veste Academy]

My only problem is that they stop at WWI since they were written a long time ago, so I'll have to find something else when we get to that point.

 

IMO, this is the biggest problem with the American history resources that are commonly recommended...and yet another reason SWB and/or Steve Sheinkin need to get cracking on American history. :tongue_smilie:

[Guest ZuS]

It seems that the gist of Zinn's "history" is pretty much this: our founding fathers were bad, the people who built the USA were evil, capitalism is the blame for everything, and every war we ever fought was for either imperialist ends or to cover our hypocrisy.

 

The Freedom of Information act reveals that:

1. Howard Zinn was a formal member of the Communist Party USA.

2. He taught a class of "Basic Marxism" at headquarters in Brooklyn, NY advising his students that the basic teachings of Marx and Lenin "were sound and should be adhered to by those present."

3. Howard Zinn was a Pro-Castro activist and backed radical groups such as the Socialist Workers Party (SWP), the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS), Progressive Labor Party, and the Black Panther Party.

 

 

 

After that quick breakdown, I like Howard Zinn even more. Thanks :)

[dbmamaz]

I'm reading Hakim's story out loud and my high schooler is reading the Zinn's People's History as a supplement. But Zinn has a young peoples version and a graphic novel version, both of which are for a much younger audience. Get them all out of the library and take a quick spin - you know your kids and your interests better than we do!

[Faithr]

I agree that Zinn is very biased. While it is interesting to read his interpretation of events, he is so idealogical it sticks in my craw. But then I had a hard time reading The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History which does the same thing but from a very conservative perspective. Neither are particularly interested in history per se, but are very interested in furthering their own political agenda. I think reading those opposing points of view is very informative but I wouldn't use them for young children. Not unless I wanted to brainwash them :). When they get a bit older and understand bias, it makes for really spirited discussion though!

[NotSoObvious]

Thanks for the new comments. :)

 

(Just wanted to point out this is an old thread)

[Chrysalis Academy]

LOL! I am always worried when I see an old thread resurface like this - do I still agree with what I said back then???? In this case, yes, I do! Whew! Zinn has been a great addition to our American History studies this year - we read from a different source first, then we read aloud & discuss the Zinn chapter. Besides offering different perspectives on history, it has led to really interesting meta-discussions about what history is, how it is done, what it is for, how stories are different depending on who is telling them, how telling a story and power are related. These are all really excellent logic-stage discussions!