WWE and FLL narration curricula is impossible

[lea1]

First, most people following TWTM start narration using Story of the World and in the later parts of First Language Lessons. The activity guide for SOTW contains questions to ask the kids. You help them put together a narration paragraph based upon their answers (and you write it down for them). The narration exercises in FLL work much the same way.

 

If you follow all of the recommendations in TWTM, then by the time kids start WWE in third grade (which is the grade TWTM recommends you begin a writing program) they have 2 years worth of experience with guided narration. You might be better off starting with First Language Lessons.

 

Actually WWE 1 - 4 is for grades 1st through 4th. TWTM recommends starting WWE 1 in first grade, if you are starting out using the WTM approach. (See page 63, section Writing, second paragraph, "Once he's writing well, your child should begin to do simple copying exercises. First Language Lessons provides copywork assignments that reinforce grammar learning. In addition, your child should copy sentences from good writers three or four times per week." She goes on to recommend The Complete Writer: Writing with Ease Levels 1 through 4 for grades 1st through 4th.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Lea in OK

[nmoira]

 

And if you keep on this path? You will *always* be doing this.

It's not something I mind, though we do limit interruptions during read alouds to both kids to essential questions only. I don't find either of them to be lazy listeners (or readers): they seem to take delight in discussing the more obscure points of the story with each other than with me. There are worse kinds of rebellion. :tongue_smilie:

[Mrs Mungo]

Actually WWE 1 - 4 is for grades 1st through 4th. TWTM recommends starting WWE 1 in first grade, if you are starting out using the WTM approach. (See page 63, section Writing, second paragraph, "Once he's writing well, your child should begin to do simple copying exercises. First Language Lessons provides copywork assignments that reinforce grammar learning. In addition, your child should copy sentences from good writers three or four times per week." She goes on to recommend The Complete Writer: Writing with Ease Levels 1 through 4 for grades 1st through 4th.

 

Ah, my kids were older when WWE came out. When I began on my TWTM journey, the recommendation was to start a writing program in third grade? Personally, fwiw? That is what *I* would still do. Copywork is not the same thing as narration, imo.

 

It's not something I mind, though we do limit interruptions during read alouds to both kids to essential questions only. I don't find either of them to be lazy listeners (or readers): they seem to take delight in discussing the more obscure points of the story with each other than with me. There are worse kinds of rebellion. :tongue_smilie:

 

Oh, I have one of those too; that is my middle dd. :lol: And none of mine were lazy listeners/readers when they were young. Everything begins anew in the teen years.

[Rivka]

Thanks again. Picking up lots of great suggestions. Most of these boil down to the WWE and FLL curriculum being either not well designed or just not right for my kids where they are at now.

 

I have been reading picture books and fun stuff with them. I have never read a classic book to them before.

 

In answer to other questions: mostly it is the unusual language and length of the passages which seem too difficult to follow. I don't think it is a learning disability, but it could be a public school "acquired disability." Still, I have to answer that yes, reading the passages in the WWE level 1, excepting the first couple of them, my "gifted" child cannot follow it. Nor, with an average length Aesop can she follow it. Her twin brother, the same. It does not seem strange to me that they cannot follow it, nor can I imagine any of their friends being able to either. I have trouble imagining that my situation here is terribly unique.

 

As others have said, I think that the difference between your kids and the kids who follow WWE passages comfortably is exposure, exposure, exposure.

 

It's funny to me that you commented that the copywork in WWE 1 is so much easier than the comprehension/narration sections, because in our house it was opposite. We had done a lot of classic read-alouds by the time we started WWE at 6 years old, so my daughter understood and enjoyed the WWE passages easily. In contrast, dragging herself through writing a sentence was torture! Of course, your kids have had plenty of writing experience in public school, so that part is easy for them. In both cases, it's the foreign territory that is so difficult.

 

I would not worry too much about their narration abilities for the moment, and instead I would curl up on the couch and read, read, read GOOD literature (it should be above their reading level, but it doesn't need to be "classic" in the sense of using old English). In about 3 months, try narration again.

 

:iagree: I'm sure people here could help you pull together a "literature training boot camp" that your kids would enjoy.

[nmoira]

And none of mine were lazy listeners/readers when they were young. Everything begins anew in the teen years.

My hands are firmly over my ears. My eldest is already... emotional... and it hit me this week past that it's entirely possible our household could simultaneously have two teenagers and a mom in menopause. I'm not sure at this point I can handle just the one. :tongue_smilie:

[Mrs Mungo]

My hands are firmly over my ears. My eldest is already... emotional... and it hit me this week past that it's entirely possible our household could simultaneously have two teenagers and a mom in menopause. I'm not sure at this point I can handle just the one. :tongue_smilie:

 

When I was 19 (living at home & commuting to college) my youngest sister turned 13. I have two sisters in between. It could be worse. :)

[brett_ashley]

Were I in your shoes, I'd back down on EVERYTHING else you're doing, and zero in on reading and math. For a month. For two months.

 

:iagree: Keep us posted!!

[KathyBC]

If you follow all of the recommendations in TWTM, then by the time kids start WWE in third grade (which is the grade TWTM recommends you begin a writing program) they have 2 years worth of experience with guided narration.

 

This makes so much sense.

[ladydusk]

I had two other thoughts while reading this thread. First, I wondered if it might help if you read first a simplified version of a fable or folk or fairy tale to them, and then followed up with a version Of the same story written in more elevated language. Then, they would already understand the basics of what was happening. I also wondered if using something more Charlotte Masonish like Primary Language Lessons would be a more gentle transition for them to begin with. Or Classical Writing Primer, which uses the Thornton Burgess animal stories. I believe Primary Language Lessons is available in the public domain.

 

Best wishes to you as you begin this journey!

 

:iagree:Or read a single paragraph, then have them tell back everything. Worse comes to worse, read a sentence and have them tell it back. Break it down into very small chunks.

 

Have you given them an example of what it is you want? Maybe you could have them read you the story, then you could narrate back to them. Turn the tables, let them hear what is expected.

 

I agree with those who suspect it is the open-endedness of narration ... the "what do you want me to tell you?" terror. You need to establish a freedom of expression between you and the children. Excitement when they remember even one thing, no matter what it is. Narration is a learned skill, particularly WTM narration, and you probably need to start way, way back at the beginning with focus and attention.

 

One of my favorite classical ed folks is Andrew Kern, he says that attention is the basis for learning. That what we pay attention to is what we can remember, contemplate, and express (in that order). You need to give them some forms to express their ideas in; they've been trained to meet expectations with no freedom. Classical Education is about making wise, virtuous, and free people.

 

And, with the others, read some good stuff. We started with the first Boxcar Children book with our after dinner read alouds. It is not quite classic, but it has some good stuff in it. We read after dinner, and we read stuff our kids aren't quite ready for in general ... then my husband and I model how to interact with a book. Pick up an idea and discuss it. It's loads of fun :)

 

Best wishes to you!

[Stacy in NJ]

You've probably read TWTM and know that SWB's version of classical education is all about language. Her assumption/goal is that children are exposed to sophisticated language from an early age - that they've had challenging material read to them early. I think her expectation are high and sometimes unrealistic.

 

Since your children are 8, I suggest as a goal you stretch their capacity to listen and read more advanced material. Moving beyond picture books should be your goal. Early chapter books read aloud over a period of time will stretch their capacity to listen quietly, understand, and respond appropriately via narrations.

[2squared]

If you are looking for fun and engaging beginning read alouds classics, my kids highly recommend My Father's Dragon, Mr. Popper's Penguins, and How to Eat Fried Worms. Charlotte's Web is great too, but not nearly as entertaining as the three my kids recommend.

[Mrs Mungo]

You've probably read TWTM and know that SWB's version of classical education is all about language. Her assumption/goal is that children are exposed to sophisticated language from an early age - that they've had challenging material read to them early. I think her expectation are high and sometimes unrealistic.

 

Since your children are 8, I suggest as a goal you stretch their capacity to listen and read more advanced material. Moving beyond picture books should be your goal. Early chapter books read aloud over a period of time will stretch their capacity to listen quietly, understand, and respond appropriately via narrations.

 

I actually think there are some great, engaging picture books with sophisticated language. IMO, there is no reason to go from great picture books to crappy chapter books (not saying that is what you are advocating).

 

Examples of great picture books:

St George and the Dragon

 

Eloise in Paris (Eloise books typically have more words than a beginning chapter book)

Alexander and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day

 

Nutshell Library

 

Frederick

 

They can move directly from books like these to slightly better chapter books.

[scrappyhappymama]

It took my son a full year of WWE to get comfortable with narration. His mind just doesn't work that way naturally. :001_smile: It was especially hard for him to get the idea of summarizing down, because he'd much prefer to tell me the whole story in great detail. :D So our first year of WWE involved a lot of handholding, rereading, restating, and patience. But I really believed in the methodology and knew that my son would never learn to write clearly and concisely if he couldn't think clearly and concisely. Now, we are nearly through WWE 2 and I am happy to report that he narrates beautifully and summarizes with much more ease. It was a long process, but very worth it in my opinion.

 

I read at some point that the narrations in FLL were not necessary if we were also doing the narrations in WWE, so since my son was already struggling in narrations, we've always skipped those. No harm done, and we enjoyed the discussions of grammar and the memorization portions of FLL.

 

A couple of other suggestions regarding WWE. My understanding is that SWB specifically split them into level 1-4 rather than grade 1-4, because it is intended that the younger elementary child start at level one, regardless of the grade level. In our family, we wait to start a formal writing program until we've completed phonics, which is the end of 1st grade, so we do WWE 1 beginning in 2nd grade and just continue on from there. I wouldn't get hung up on the idea that your 2nd or 3rd grade level children are struggling with 1st grade work. It is totally normal for them to be starting at this level and to be struggling to adjust their minds to this approach in the beginning.

 

Also, if you find the selections in WWE1 to be too challenging for your children, then I am guessing that you are using the workbooks which lay out the passages for each week? Another alternative is to just use the WWE manual and passages from the reading you are otherwise doing with your children. If they find some of the classical literature too abstract right now, you can still complete the WWE lessons using readings from science or history. There is no reason not to let your read aloud time do double duty, especially while your children are so young and going through the public school de-programming period. For one of my sons, listening to read alouds of fiction books was torture, but he could listen for hours to non-fiction books about animals or astronomy. So I'd be sure to have in mind the WWE lesson of the week and pause to comment on the pronouns or verbs or whatever the week's lesson emphasized, right in the middle of science. Then the next day, he'd get a copywork sheet of one of the sentences we narrated together (incidentally, in cursive, so writing also does double duty as penmanship). In the beginning, this was a much less painful way to get our writing fundamentals down.

 

So my suggestion is, don't ditch the curriculum just yet, especially if you are just getting started and if you buy in to the philosophy behind it. But don't be afraid to tweak it to fit your kids and their learning styles and with consideration of the way they've been learning for the last few years. It can take some time for that shift in thinking to occur.

Edited April 16, 2012 by scrappyhappymama

[warneral]

Wwe1 just asks details - there is no summary work. My dd sometimes gets NOTHING right with the questions but she is improving and think she'll do well next year summarizing with wwe2 next year. She is a visual learning (whereas my ds is audio) so she reads along while I read and that helps. SWB said in one of her utube Q&A that that is fine and had other suggestions as well (like trying smaller chunks at a time) to work at their level.

 

Just be patient and I bet you will see fruits over time

[Coffeetime]

The bolded above is probably the right place to start. Gently, I do think it is unusual for children of that age not to be able to follow Aesop's fables. Perhaps the passages that have been chosen for WWE1 are just too big of a leap for kids that haven't been read to at length. Personally, I didn't love the WWE workbooks (for different reasons), but I think the approach is solid. I was much happier putting the method into practice by using the book Writing With Ease (it encompasses all 4 years) and applying the principals to what we were already reading. Also, you might want to study up on the Charlotte Mason approach to narration. More than anything, it sounds like your kids need to be trained to listen to good literature. I would not worry too much about their narration abilities for the moment, and instead I would curl up on the couch and read, read, read GOOD literature (it should be above their reading level, but it doesn't need to be "classic" in the sense of using old English). In about 3 months, try narration again. If they still can't do it, then I would highly suggest seeking out information on auditory processing disorders. HTH!

 

:iagree: This. My son had no difficulties with WWE in first grade. But we read classic literature all. the. time. We read Pinnochio and Peter Pan aloud when he was five. It's what they're used to. If all your kids read in public school was "See Spot run", then of course they aren't going to be able to understand more difficult passages of literature.

 

Start by reading the classics aloud. Every day. Ask questions about what is happening in the story you're reading constantly. Stop and point things out if your child isn't "getting it". "Did you see what Peter Pan did here? How do you think Wendy is going to react to that? What would you say to Peter?" Read articles and books on narration. Search Karen Andreola on Amazon for suggestions. She's amazing.

 

Shelve WWE for now, or else spoon feed it to them. Eventually they'll catch up. If they haven't after several months, look into an auditory processing disorder.

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

:iagree: Yes, yes and yes to the above.

We did WWE2 in 1st grade with my dd. I actually found it to be a very well organized and effective curriculum and she had no problem at all following the passages. However, she's regularly been exposed to books above her own reading level through reading aloud as a family. Take some time from WWE, and just READ to them. :)

[Stacy in NJ]

I agree. Also, Rosemary Sutcliff and the D'aulaires have some wonderful picture books with advanced language:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Ships-Before-Troy-Story/dp/055349483X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334614416&sr=8-1

 

http://www.amazon.com/DAulaires-Greek-Myths-Ingri-dAulaire/dp/0440406943/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334614449&sr=1-1

[Writerdaddy]

My Father's Dragon, which was a free download, and suggested here in this thread, was today about as close to a hit as we have gotten so far. My boy said it was his favorite so far, even though he missed most of what was going on at a paragraph by paragraph level, and was quite happy when the 15 minutes were finally over. My daughter had almost perfect comprehension.

 

I am limited to downloads for the next few months as I am overseas without bookstores: but I can't wait for the fried worms book! I remember that one as a child, very much so.

 

Are there good books to use that are even a step down a level from my father's dragon, and just as likely to please?

 

Thanks again. Lots more great suggestions.

As for a few points made: I can tell very easily that it is a comprehension problem and not an expression problem, though by no means are my children exceptionally articulate at all. We are all very close and its easy to see what's going on.

 

I looked into Verbalizing and Visualizing and believe it could be of some help. I am asking them to describe and picture various things in the reading pauses as well as to imagine themselves in the place of the characters in various situations. Too soon to see if this approach works but it's my best estimation and imitation of the V/V approach based on what I can glean.

[Liz CA]

This may be a completely new skill to them. Having to listen and reproduce content is different than rote memorization which is often what schools require.

I'd break the sentences down and explain things they don't seem to understand. Instead of having them narrate a story or chapter, just have them narrate the content of one or two sentences until they become more skilled at listening, forming a picture in their minds and reproducing it.

Are your children listening to audiobooks? This helped a lot with my ds.

[Writerdaddy]

I cannot find an audiobook that holds their attention. Any recommendations?

Audiobooks seem harder to follow even than having me physically present reading.

If they were to get into audiobooks it would need to be far below their grade level, I would think. Something like Charlotte's Web read by the author, or even Stuart Little read by a professional, cannot hold their attention.

I have also tried something called Charlie's Moon or something like that, which also did not work.

 

Alan

[Soror]

You should check out the booklists on Ambleside Online- as you said you were a Charlotte Mason fan. I'd go back to the pre-K level and just start reading good books. Also, librivox has recordings of a lot of AO books as well as many, many others. I'd try to devote at least an hr a day to read aloud- breaking it up if you have to. Do short things like Nursery Rhymes, and then good picture books and some beginner good chapter books. I'd agree with the Read Aloud Handbook suggestion as well, lots of classic and new selections. Meet them where they are at and they will be where you want them in no time.

Edited April 17, 2012 by soror

[*Lulu*]

I cannot find an audiobook that holds their attention. Any recommendations?

Audiobooks seem harder to follow even than having me physically present reading.

If they were to get into audiobooks it would need to be far below their grade level, I would think. Something like Charlotte's Web read by the author, or even Stuart Little read by a professional, cannot hold their attention.

I have also tried something called Charlie's Moon or something like that, which also did not work.

 

Alan

 

When they are listening to the audiobooks, what are they doing? We listen to a ton of audiobooks around here and my DS5 (very kinesthetic learning style) can lay and listen to a passage and recall almost nothing. If I have him playing with play dough, legos, coloring, or in the sensory tub while he listens his recall is greatly improved.

[Stacy in NJ]

I think what I am taking away from this forum thread is maybe to just go on, make do, and read and read until something catches.

 

And to those who say there is nothing unusual about their 5-year-old being able to follow a long Aesop fable no problem, and an 8-year old who can't probably has a problem that needs checking into: I say you are living in a bubble. Great! You say your child is normal but I say you and your child are great! You are already getting spectacular results that do not at all compare with what's "normal" out in the rest of the world. I am sure of this. Keep going! We will get there too someday soon.:)

 

It sounds like you're already at this place, but I want to encourage you to NOT invest (either financially or philosophically) in ONE world-view with regards to homeschooling. Be flexible; do what works for your family.

 

As I mentioned up-thread, SWB's expectations are unrealistically high, imp. Read, discuss, assess, challenge, enjoy. Lather, rinse, repeat.:001_smile:

[Stacy in NJ]

A few suggestions:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Poppers-Penguins-Richard-Atwater/dp/0316058424/ref=pd_sim_b_22

 

http://www.amazon.com/Hoboken-Chicken-Emergency-Daniel-Pinkwater/dp/1416928103/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334663154&sr=1-6

 

http://www.amazon.com/Bunnicula-Rabbit-Tale-Mystery-Deborah-Howe/dp/1416928170/ref=pd_sim_b_9

 

http://www.amazon.com/Fantastic-Mr-Fox-Roald-Dahl/dp/0142410349/ref=pd_sim_b_5

 

http://www.amazon.com/Henry-Ribsy-Beverly-Cleary/dp/0380709171/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334663477&sr=1-2

 

 

My sons' really enjoyed almost all of the Daniel Pinkwater books.

 

ETA: in a year or so, when your dc are ready, don't miss: http://www.amazon.com/Cricket-Times-Square-Chester-Friends/dp/0312380038/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334663366&sr=1-1

 

and

http://www.amazon.com/The-Trumpet-Swan-full-color/dp/0064410943/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334663423&sr=1-1

Edited April 17, 2012 by Stacy in NJ

[ByGrace3]

I have not read all of the responses, but we too struggled through WWE 1 this year, not FLL though. With the narrations, dd could easily narrate "one thing she remembered" but found the comprehension questions very difficult at times. We stuck with it. The last few weeks have been better, and I am already beginning to see the benefits of how this method teaches writing. Even only a few weeks ago I was not convinced, but that has changed.

 

I will say I do hope Boscopup is correct and WWE 2 is easier. :lol:

[2squared]

My Father's Dragon, which was a free download, and suggested here in this thread, was today about as close to a hit as we have gotten so far. My boy said it was his favorite so far, even though he missed most of what was going on at a paragraph by paragraph level, and was quite happy when the 15 minutes were finally over. My daughter had almost perfect comprehension.

 

I am limited to downloads for the next few months as I am overseas without bookstores: but I can't wait for the fried worms book! I remember that one as a child, very much so.

 

Since you like the first books I suggested, I also suggest anything by Roald Dahl - like James and the Giant Peach. He's my 8yo's favorite author. I've read most of them outloud, and we've listened to the rest as audio books. After reading the books, it's fun to watch the movies. Dahl also has really at least one really good picture book.

 

ETA: Dahl's BFG is incredibly difficult to read out loud. I would save that one for when you have a lot of brain power. He made up so many words that are *almost* real words that my brain hurt everytime I read from it.

 

Your 5yo is still pretty young for chapter books. I definitely would focus on picture books for a 5yo. I read picture books to my 3yo & 5yo and my 8yo often joins us for his favorite ones. I read chapter books to everyone, but my 3yo & 5yo don't follow the stories very well. My 5yo can follow the easier ones, but more difficult ones are still above his head, and this is after years of being read to. They just don't have the same amount of general knowledge and understanding as my 8yo & 10yo.

[OrdinaryTime]

The first audiobooks I started my kids on were collections of short stories, not full chapter books: Frog and Toad, Little Bear, the Frances books. The kids would hold the books and follow along with the pictures while reading. The language is modern with uncomplicated sentence structure for early readers. After listening to these types of collections for awhile, my kids were able to move on to the Little House books, Mr. Popper's Penguins, Charlotte's Web, etc. with relative ease.

[brett_ashley]

If they liked My Father's Dragon, I would suggest Bobby Bramble Loses His Brain, Chicken Big, James and the Giant Peach, The Reluctant Dragon (Inga Moore edition) and Gooney Bird Greene. A couple are picture books.

 

Also, one tip for reading aloud: Always stop before you sense them getting tired. You want to leave them wanting more!!

[Writerdaddy]

Thanks! Just today I had the chance to get Dahl books (practically the only books around in my remote location for some reason) but passed because BFG was a bit difficult going. Should have looked into it closer!

BTW, my kids are 8 years old and a handful of days, but perhaps their ability to follow narrative is more like 5.

 

They can kick the daylights out of a standardized test, though! Just wish that meant anything helpful for their character.

 

To others: the problem with audiobooks is they have no interest at all. They just don't listen at all. It probably just sounds like chatter to them, at least at the speed it is read. Will have to go down many notches to get somewhere recorded audio-wise.

[happyhomemaker25]

Thanks! Just today I had the chance to get Dahl books (practically the only books around in my remote location for some reason) but passed because BFG was a bit difficult going. Should have looked into it closer!

BTW, my kids are 8 years old and a handful of days, but perhaps their ability to follow narrative is more like 5.

 

They can kick the daylights out of a standardized test, though! Just wish that meant anything helpful for their character.

 

To others: the problem with audiobooks is they have no interest at all. They just don't listen at all. It probably just sounds like chatter to them, at least at the speed it is read. Will have to go down many notches to get somewhere recorded audio-wise.

 

I think I would still play the audio books. I thought my boys weren't getting anything out of them either. One day out of nowhere my oldest son just starts talking about one. It took awhile for them to get used to the books, but when they did I saw a huge improvement in comprehension. We use them during rest time which is a hour most days.

[Mrs Mungo]

Thanks! Just today I had the chance to get Dahl books (practically the only books around in my remote location for some reason) but passed because BFG was a bit difficult going. Should have looked into it closer!

BTW, my kids are 8 years old and a handful of days, but perhaps their ability to follow narrative is more like 5.

 

They can kick the daylights out of a standardized test, though! Just wish that meant anything helpful for their character.

 

To others: the problem with audiobooks is they have no interest at all. They just don't listen at all. It probably just sounds like chatter to them, at least at the speed it is read. Will have to go down many notches to get somewhere recorded audio-wise.

 

If they are having trouble with audio books or listening to chapter books, then go back to great picture books. The St George and the Dragon book I mentioned above contains a snarling, growling dragon. Growl and snarl when you read it. Dramatize and emphasize. Make it exciting. Let them growl and snarl and be dragons. Become a *story-teller*, not just a reader.

[Catherine]

Play them in the car while you're driving somewhere they want to go. Ignore protests.

 

Make sure the early ones are high-interest and not too difficult-gradually increase the challenge level, and stop the audio to check comprehension and discuss frequently. One of my absolute favorites is EB White reading The Trumpet of the Swan. It is whimsical, sweet, inspiring...his humanity as a writer shines through this work.

 

Small doses at first until they get used to it and can tolerate more. Don't make them miserable, just challenge them a bit.

 

Some of our favorites:

 

D'Aulaire's Greek Myths

The BFG

The Witches-read by Vanessa Redgrave-it's priceless, but maybe not for the very sensitive.

Revolting Rhymes-another Dahl irreverent classic that my kids have literally memorized

The Trumpet of the Swan and Charlotte's Web, both read by the author

Five Children and It (make sure you're up on britishisms before you read so you can explain) and other Edith Nesbit books