An open invitation to parents of learning-challenged kids (xposted on Curricula Board

[Susan Wise Bauer]

We are gathering material for an update of The Well-Trained Mind (as some of you mentioned in the curriculum-discovery thread). A number of you on that thread--and many parents over the last ten years--have asked for specific advice on following the classical program with learning-challenged kids.

 

I have my own opinions on this subject :001_smile:, and I'm not sure we can get an extra chapter into any later edition of the book, but I'll pitch the idea at my editor and see what he says.

 

In the meantime: would those of you who deal with this challenge be willing to post your own thoughts? If I were to include a chapter in TWTM, I'd want the voices of experienced parents to be heard. I will, of course, ask your permission before including anything written on this board.

 

So let me know what you think.

 

SWB

[CactusPair]

Susan, I don't have anything enlightening to add. I just want to say

 

I love you for considering adding this info to the book! That is so great!

 

Thanks for seeking the board's input! And for everything you do!

[happygrrl]

SWB- Thank you so much for asking this! I have been pondering what classical ed. might look like for my aspie son. In my opinion, he will benefit from a classical ed as much as or more than his neurotypical sister will, though the results will look different. I use a theory from my yoga class: regardless of how your posture looks, 100% of correct effort reaps 100% benefit. Someone who does a posture picture perfect will be getting less *benefit* than someone who looks worse, but is giving more effort. The key for us is reminding my son that our work is not performance oriented, rather it is process oriented. If I can keep him proud of his effort, then he can stop comparing himself with others (which causes his frustration level to skyrocket and his self-esteem to plummet).

 

Some things that help:

-Grouping like tasks into manageable chunks. my son has difficulty transitioning between subjects, so we do better with less frequent changes. A posted schedule helps him see what changes are coming up, so they are not a surprise.

 

- Pace is child-driven, not curriculum-driven (I stole this phrase form Andrew Campbell's Latin-Centered Curriculum). I would rather have the material mastered than be able to say we finished a book on 'time'.

 

-Allow work to be done orally. We still work on composition and handwriting, but oral work allows my son to answer literature comprehension questions without getting bogged down in mechanics. Working with a marker on a whiteboard or even writing paper in page protectors helps with sensory issues.

 

-Utilizing other teachers. Our day is quite teacher intensive, so dad, or even instructors on DVD's give a welcome change.

 

There are many other ideas gathered from books like "The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome" by Tony Attwood and "The Out of Sync Child" by Kranowitz and Miller (like how having ds jump on a mini-tramp or sit on an exercise ball while listening to read-alouds dramatically improves his comprehension! Who knew?)

 

I will try to distill my other various and random thoughts on the subject and post them. There are so many knowledgeable folks on this board; I am looking forward to reading their replies!

[JennW in SoCal]

After reading all the posts on the K-8 board and here, I want to chime in with the idea of not suggesting specific curricula but instead reassuring parents that it is alright to modify things to fit their own child. It seems to me parents so often think that a classical education is more about the specific methods of instruction rather than the end result, so they make themselves and their kids miserable in trying to implement something exactly as you've described it in your book.

 

I'm thinking specifically of all the writing that is asked of grammar stage kids. I want your readers to know that is ok for their kids to learn how to type, that it is ok for narrations to be oral, that mom can act as a scribe. I also want them to know that reading aloud and books on tape are quite acceptable for even high schoolers. That lessons can be done while sprawled out on the living room floor with mom using a white board and colorful markers while the child dictates.

 

My oldest son is an "Aspie" with very impaired executive functions who has one last year of high school. This year we did Jacobs geometry the same way we did Singapore math in 3rd grade -- on the living room floor with a big white board and colorful markers. He has typed everything since he learned how in 2nd grade, though he has used workbooks over the years to be sure he has legible handwriting. He didn't write narrations until 7th grade, but now can write a decent essay. His passion is theater, so in 9th grade his literature studies focused on modern plays. Very little of his school work looks like what you've recommended in the WTM for high school, and he is not headed for a small liberal arts college. But he has those qualities which I wanted from a classical education: he thinks about what he reads or hears, analyzes the information, forms his own opinions and clearly articulates his opinions in writing or in discussions. He's a bit too articulate and persistent about sharing his opinions sometimes, but that's another issue!

 

By the way, what are your opinions about modifications for learning challenged kids?

[happygrrl]

After reading all the posts on the K-8 board and here, I want to chime in with the idea of not suggesting specific curricula but instead reassuring parents that it is alright to modify things to fit their own child. It seems to me parents so often think that a classical education is more about the specific methods of instruction rather than the end result, so they make themselves and their kids miserable in trying to implement something exactly as you've described it in your book.

 

I'm thinking specifically of all the writing that is asked of grammar stage kids. I want your readers to know that is ok for their kids to learn how to type, that it is ok for narrations to be oral, that mom can act as a scribe. I also want them to know that reading aloud and books on tape are quite acceptable for even high schoolers. That lessons can be done while sprawled out on the living room floor with mom using a white board and colorful markers while the child dictates.

 

My oldest son is an "Aspie" with very impaired executive functions who has one last year of high school. This year we did Jacobs geometry the same way we did Singapore math in 3rd grade -- on the living room floor with a big white board and colorful markers. He has typed everything since he learned how in 2nd grade, though he has used workbooks over the years to be sure he has legible handwriting. He didn't write narrations until 7th grade, but now can write a decent essay. His passion is theater, so in 9th grade his literature studies focused on modern plays. Very little of his school work looks like what you've recommended in the WTM for high school, and he is not headed for a small liberal arts college. But he has those qualities which I wanted from a classical education: he thinks about what he reads or hears, analyzes the information, forms his own opinions and clearly articulates his opinions in writing or in discussions. He's a bit too articulate and persistent about sharing his opinions sometimes, but that's another issue!

 

By the way, what are your opinions about modifications for learning challenged kids?

 

This gives me a great deal of encouragement, Jennifer. Thank you.

[Kathy in MD]

If all you could add was a paragraph on when to look for outside help with reading problems in young children and some version of Laurie4B's open letter to homeschool parents, it would be a great leap forward.

 

For reading, my ds's developmental optometrist recommended that if there is no or minimal progress made with one year of consistent reading instruction, it would be wise to check for physical problems. Those problems could be visual and/or auditory. A simple auditory problem could be that the child does not understand the precursor to phonics --phonemes. Or it could be more severe. But more severe language problems are usually caught fairly early. The tricky problem to catch is developmental eye problems because *sustained* convergence, tracking, and several other problems that aren't tested in a normal eye exam. Vision therapy is still controversial, partially because of turf wars, but research is starting to come in.

 

One other thing, if someone tries to teach a 4 or 5 year old to read and struggles, the child may still be physically too immature to do it, but by the age of 6 or 7 there are likely problems if the child isn't reading. But if a parent still tries to teach a 4 year old to read and the child continually fails, the parent will probably have developed a hater of reading. So I'd test a young struggler just in case. I didn't and I'm still dealing with the aftermath with my 14 yo.

 

 

 

But you were asking for curriculum suggestions! :) So here are mine:

 

Spelling: Sequential Spelling (I use)

Apple's and Pears (others like)

Laurie4B's spelling method (others like)

 

Reading: Multi-syllabic words - REWARDS

: Comprehension - I Read It, but I Don’t Get It: Comprehension Strategies for Adolescent Readers - this is a teacher's guide that can be applied across the curriculum.

 

Math Facts: Addition & Multiplication the Fun Way by City Creek Press. Take 4-8 weeks to learn (or longer) and follow with a minimum of one year drill.

 

General memorization technics: Modify Laurie's spelling method

 

Writing: Sentence Composing - It teaches very little about paragraphs, but you can't write a good paragragh with poor sentences. My ds's writing has blossomed this year with this program.

 

Latin: Latin for Children. He's just started primer A this year, but he's been doing well.

 

Typing: Keyboarding Skills by Dana Hanbury King - children with language and/or handwriting LD's benefit from learning to type early.

 

I will use regular programs, but I often use the level several years below my ds's age if it isn't childish or insulting. I also use BBC and PBS DVD's as well as curriculums with instructional DVD's.

 

One problem my ds had was that he thought that all good students could read and instantly master the material. He finally learned better when we read some Plato together and he saw me struggle with meaning, reread sections, and discuss it with him when I didn't comprehend. He tackled his reading better after that.

[Quiver0f10]

If all you could add was a paragraph on when to look for outside help with reading problems in young children and some version of Laurie4B's open letter to homeschool parents, it would be a great leap forward.

 

Yes! Laurie4B's letter would be wonderful if you could include it!

[happygrrl]

Yes! Laurie4B's letter would be wonderful if you could include it!

 

Could you clue me in on this? Do you have a link? Thanks!

[Laurie4b]

Thank you for thinking to include a chapter on homeschooling kids with special needs. Your publisher may be interested in the fact that about 20% of the population has some degree of dyslexia. That's just one of many possibilities. A book that addresses the special needs population will have a niche market that others do not.

 

I probably can't type all that I'd like to input right now. (Family is departing shortly. I'm the ride.)

 

First, it would be a true service to moms to counter the prevalent homeschool myth of the "late bloomer". True late bloomers exist, but they are statistically rare. Contrast that with 20% dyslexia. If your kiddo is having problems learning to read, which is the more likely cause? Additionally, I'd want to reinforce a mother's sense that there is something wrong. Often mother's intuit that, but other people don't see it. Most pediatricians are not tuned in to more subtle problems, either. What I would tell a mom now is, "If you think there is a problem, keep searching until someone has an explanation that fits what your gut senses." If a child has any behavioral or social problems, I'd recommend that the first stop be an occupational therapist for an evaluation. They actually do the treatment. After they do their eval, ask if they recommend further eval and from whom.

 

Parents should know that difficulty with speech often is an early symptom of reading difficulties. That way, they can be on the lookout and jump on things earlier rather than later. Reversals are not symptomatic of dyslexia; difficulty with rhyming is.

 

The importance of "fluency" in the development of reading is often overlooked. Repeated oral readings are the research-based way to best develop fluency.

 

Ok. Family is out the door. Back later!

[Laurie4b]

hmm. Kids' criterion for "It's not raining" and mine apparently differ. I prefer to let it blow over, LOL!

 

I'd want to tell moms that if there is something different about their child that labels cannot be avoided. You get to choose from either list A (thought up by the child or his peers or his peers' mothers): stupid, lazy, bad, weird, poorly disciplined or List B : dyslexia, Asperger's, dysgraphia, ADHD, autism spectrum, sensory processing disorder, etc. My ds, on completing OT, wrote his therapist a note which said, "I used to think I was a bad boy; now I'm joy boy."

 

For specifics: With reading, parents need to know that by far the most common cause of dyslexia is difficulty with phonemic awareness. Phonemic awareness is the brain's ability to "get" that words are made up of individual sounds. Some people's brains don't process words that way. If your brain isn't distinguishing individual sounds, and you start with phonics, it's going to be a wash: "Here sweetie, this symbol stands for this sound." "Whatever you say, mom". Phonemic awareness is the foundation of phonics. You can't associate sounds and symbols without getting the bit about sounds.

 

There are two streams of reading approaches that seem to work well with kids with phonemic awareness issues: the Phonographix family and the Orton-Gillingham family. The Phonographix family includes Reading Reflex, ABCDarian, and later on , REWARDS . Members of the Orton Gillingham family are Wilson and Barton. People can also hire Orton-Gillingham tutors. Phonographix works with sounds only, not names of letters. (That comes later). It doesn't work with any rules, but rather with probabilities. So, you would be taught that when you see the vowel combination ow, you try the two possibilities and see which makes a real word. OG is more rules based. They both work.

 

Handwriting: No question that Handwriting without Tears is recommended by more OT's than any other method.

 

Writing: Copywork will yield some interesting information. If a child's handwriting is neater when they are copying than when they are self-generating writing, then it's likely dyslexic dysgraphia. This means that the overload on a dyslexic kid's brain of generating the thought, trying to figure out the spelling, remembering (or not remembering) capitalization, punctuation,etc. ends up on overload and she simply can't also keep the "how to make a neat "a" " in the mix. If a child has fine motor problems (diagnosed by an OT), then keep copywork short and start on keyboarding early in elementary school. You don't want written expression to lag because of lack of ability to produce handwriting.

 

I think dictation and narrations are excellent for most kids with reading/written language issues. The dictation may need to toss the literary quality in favor of repetition of spelling, and language mechanics until the student "gets it" but I think keeping dictation in this form is invaluable. Narration done orally with mom as the scribe is an excellent precursor to written language. Just gradually have the student TYPE more and more of it himself.

 

Though I gag on the style part of IEW, the structure part is broken down into sufficiently bite-sized chunks to help a child with written language issues begin to be successful in writing. That "3 key word thing" is very helpful. Also, if you can sit through the whole video, A.P. has some excellent writing instruction suggestions. I think the very best one is about success. Teaching so that a child is successful is the key to any remediation. They need to experience success after success after success because the whole thing is so problematic for them. His best advice is about feedback to the child: 1) Grade on a very specific set of criteria 2) Do not grade down for stuff that is not on that set 3) Look for all the ways you can tell a child their work is good 4) Be a silent editor and don't to "teach" when you give back the student's work. (File it away mentally and teach later.) (Just please don't teach ly sentence openers for every paragraph--or even every paper! jmoo)

 

For classical education, you can work around some things by audio CD. Latina Christiana is a good choice. The child can do it in the car for Latin with a TX accent! Your SOTW on CD is excellent. My kids love that series and ds with all the problems can tell you anything about history that is in one of your books. His struggles with reading didn't hold him back in history. We also like the ones by Nest called Living Principles of America. They are American history through dramatic dialog. Dh and I couldn't help listening and being drawn in the first time we played them while traveling in the car. Lyrical Life Science CD's are good for science. For kids who have trouble reading/writing, choosing a hands on series of science, and letting them dictate lab reports works well.

 

Sun's back out!

[Mama Bear]

I wanted to say that I also love you for even asking! :D

 

I'm going to think about this and will likely come back with more. The first couple of things that come to mind for parents -- in foundational terms, before one even gets to curriculum issues -- are:

 

1.) Ask lots of questions, even of seemingly unlikely people. The best resources for information (and commiseration) are often those who at first sight have no good reason to be in the possession of anything applicable to your kid. Take notes of the answers given.

 

2.) Be not afraid. Whether it be a (potential) diagnosis, an unknown therapy, or something (like psych help) that seems enormous, daunting, and rife with society's presumptive labels, be brave. Suspend your paranoia. Get over it right now and first thing every morning hereafter, if need be. Your child needs you to be willing to deal with what is, not what you wish you had. Your child does not have time for you to get comfortable with their issues before you act. Take your blinders off, set aside your preconceived notions. You can do this. Be of good courage. Create in yourself unflagging courage, optimism, resourcefulness. If you find this catastrophic and need counseling or meds in order to make this happen, do. not. hesitate. Again, you and your child, indeed your whole famly, do not have time to sit around while you reassemble your marbles into a complete set. Part of "handling things well" will mean that when you need to fall apart, you do so. Thoroughly. Temporarily. Then you will choose to carry on rather than wallow or be thumped into inaction by fear.

 

3.) The best advice I've ever received is: a.) to trust my (informed) gut. Parents will know their children best and will strive to provide what's best for those children. b.) Modify everything as needed, shedding guilt as you go for not completing things as set out -- by guides, authors, etc. c.) Ignore naysayers. They'll waste your time and suck away energy that you already don't have.

 

I have wondered if there might be a way to create a compendium of useful classical ed "things" for particular disabilities, learning styles, or special needs. In Q's case, his needs will be so huge (in part because he's likely to remain mostly non-verbal), that thinking about types of curriculum becomes a walk in the Twilight Zone. There remains no doubt that he's a bright little guy -- relationships/people are his thing, he loves to turn pages when read to, he's trying to make the "b" sound (unprompted) when eating blueberries, he obviously gets a kick out of the kids' memory work and Latin chants, even trying to join in with OPGTTR vowel and consonant rhymes ;) . It's just that he has little of the usual methods of communication at his disposal. And how does one teach when one can't be sure (at least in a typical fashion) how much is making an impact?

 

I think it would be lovely if you could include a list of resources as obscure (?) even as Assistive/Augmentative Communication devices (Prentice-Romisch is one company, Dynavox is another), or Ablenet.com, for example. Support groups' websites would also be useful. Suggestions from parents might be good -- for example, I have one child who memorized multiplication tables while walking up and down the stairs, the Gettysburg address while circling a chair in the middle of the family room. (Of course, an exhaustive list wouldn't be appropriate.) There are two purposes I can think of in including something like this. First, a list of such things would likely be useful for those who are just beginning to face an overwhelming situation with a child, but who wish to use classical ed (the more tools the better). Second, it is all too easy for people to get lost in the particulars of their own lives. Seeing a list of such resources, which most parents will never have to contemplate using (thank God), would, I think, have the effect of reminding us all to be grateful for our own problems. This principle is quite useful for me every day :D and such a list may well be appreciated by all sorts of people, even those who wouldn't anticipate it.

 

I hope some of the above is useful. I'm going to ask a friend who has special needs teenagers to weigh in here as well.

 

Thank you again, madame. (And for signing my book at WHO last week. It means a lot. The poor thing has now been carefully placed on a high shelf. :) )

 

MB

[Kathy in MD]

Something else to consider is that teaching a child with LD's has 3 different stages.

 

The 1st stage is where physical problems are cured or remediated as far as possible. Some teaching does go on, but the focus is on remediating the physical problems. Teaching methods must be most highly modified at this stage. However focusing on the physical will allow academic learning to move swiftly later. A few things included in this stage is vision therapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy, medication, etc.

 

The 2nd stage is cognitive therapy, training the brain to interpret the improved imput from the body. General cognitive programs are Learning Rx and PACE. Cognitive Calisthenics is a new home based program that we're waiting reviews on. Programs that deal more with certain auditory problems are Earobics and Fast For Word. Once again, some academics can be going on.

 

The 3rd stage is academics. With a firm foundation in the physical and cognitive arenas, academics can move much faster. However some children will still struggle because some underlying stage 1 & 2 problems still exist.

 

Of course, some children will not need any stage 1 therapies. Other children will have only minor problems so academics can move rather swiftly even while stage 1 issues are being addressed.

 

Are you sure you wanted to become immersed in the world of LD's? ;)

[Kathy in MD]

Could you clue me in on this? Do you have a link? Thanks!

 

Scroll down the post and you'll find it, in three posts.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22834&highlight=open+letter+homeschool

[Michelle T]

but just wanted to ask SWB when she plans on coming here to Southern CA for a conference.

Michelle T

[Michelle T]

Laurie, maybe you could write a book on homeschooling LD kids? I'd buy it right off the press!

Michelle T

[happygrrl]

Scroll down the post and you'll find it, in three posts.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22834&highlight=open+letter+homeschool

 

 

 

Thanks!!

[Laurie4b]

OK. Back from the activity!

 

Some more thoughts:

 

Grammar: Mild dyslexic son did fine with Rod and Staff. Ds with more problems did well with FLL done orally. We did through 2nd grade and laid off though, because of need for more time for therapies. We'll get back to grammar later next year. Knowing parts of speech is one of the things that can be put off till other stuff is remediated. I wouldn't put off capitalization, punctuation, and usage, though. Those need to be practiced, preferably via dictation at the child's level.

 

Foreign language: Rosettastone is good at an elementary level for getting in some foreign language pretty painlessly. Really any video, audio, or computer based program should work for most kids with LD's. What you don't want to do is have them reading or writing in a foreign language before they can read and write reliably in English.

 

Typing: We did Type-It with me hanging over ds's shoulder making sure the correct fingers were being used. It's good for a kiddo with dyslexia because it reinforces word families. We then moved on to Timberdoodle's version of Typing Instructor.

 

Math: I think math depends on the individual kid. Some will need manipulatives. Some will like the black and white of Saxon. Some will look at Saxon and cry for lack of visual cues. Most kids with dyslexia will need drill in the basic math facts. Kathy in MD used a program --Kathy what was it: Times Tales or something like that? that uses little memorable stories to help kids learn facts. Teach them to do their 9's on their fingers. Teach them any tricks you want. When they have a brain blip, they need alternate ways to get an answer.

 

I wish I could draw a graph in this post! At the beginning, remediating therapies are going to take up a huge chunk of school time. You simply can't do all the OT exercises, etc. you're supposed to do at home AND do a full school day. (Still another reason to get an evaluation early in the process, before you feel so compelled to do a lot of school!) It is okay not to do everything. In fact, it is detrimental to TRY to do everything. You have to triage. So at the beginning, it's therapies and 3 R's. Anything else is extra. It's okay to just listen to SOTW CD's and call it history without all the living books, maps, activities, etc. It's important to triage so that your child (not to mention mom) is not stressed. Stress is the enemy of progress. Success, not stress, is what you're after.

 

If you child has issues with social skills, those are the most important thing to get in the mix. THE most important. People with great academic skills and poor social skills will have a lot more difficulty in life than people with mediocre academic skills and good social skills. So making social skills part of the "curriculum" in some way is a must for those kids. Many OT practices and some pediatric psychology practices offer social skills groups. These are good. But moms need to make sure that with all the focus on academics that social skills stay a top priority. Mom may need to cultivate relationships with other moms who would be willing to coach their kids to include a child with some differences. Some gentle guidance from either mother can be so helpful. This can't take a back seat.

 

Once the therapies are beginning to wind down, still focus on those 3 R's, but you can begin to add in additional stuff. Content areas are the last to focus on. It is not hard to catch up in content areas once you can read and write. It is hard to do anything if you can't read and write. At this point, there may still be some time spent in therapies, but it's lower. (Also, it's not unusual to need to reboot some therapies when puberty hits.)

 

At some point, you'll need to consider whether to focus your efforts at remediation (the process of "fixing" the problem) or accomodation (the process of designing a "work-around" that gets you where you need to be even though the problem is still there.) With some kids, remediation for dyslexia, particularly if started late, or if there is a double-dyslexia with both phonemic awareness and rapid naming issues, you may need to look at accomodations such as extra time on tests, electronic texts (the computer can read to the student, either all of the text, or selected parts), the ability to write in a text (not a problem in college--but a kid needs to be taught how to do this). For a child who cannot write, you may decide to bag handwriting instruction altogether in favor of typing. In extreme cases, you may need to use voice-recognition software, which is getting both cheaper and more user friendly. Sometimes, there is a mix. My goal for spelling, for instance, is to get the 300 most frequent words engraved in my ds's brains, as well as basic patterns of words (cvc, --tion, etc.) This then puts them in range of spellcheck as an accomodation. (Franklin speller is another option that is "smarter" than spellcheck for dyslexic kids.)

 

Whew.

 

Another thing I deeply believe in is in all the therapies, remediation, accomodation that you don't lose sight of your child's strengths. This also is a "must include" from early on, even if it seems less critical than, say, Latin, history, or science. A child who is good at drama and struggles with everything else, should be able to be in drama clubs, etc. A child who is athletic should play sports even if science isn't yet covered. A child who loves animals should have time with them. A child who is good with people should be caring for younger siblings, being a mother's helper (maybe with her own mother's help,etc.) A kid who loves to help dad fix things and who struggles to read and write should have part of his "curriculum" be building kits, projects, etc. A kid who is good in math but awful in reading should be advanced in math. Never hold a child back in one subject because another is weak. We all work in our areas of strengths as adults. Kids need to develop those strengths because that is where their niche will be.

 

Finally, this is an attitude thing, but I believe that God has gifted every child in some way. Each human being has something unique to offer the world. The child's purpose and contribution to this world may not involve college. That is important to keep in mind if you are drawn to classical education. The ability to use fine rhetoric, understand advanced mathematics, etc. is meaningless if a person does not fulfill the role that God created them for. The simplest ones often lead the wise in the upside down Kingdom of God. We who are academically inclined can lose sight of this quickly.

 

Susan, again, thanks for thinking of this!

[Twinmom]

At the moment I'm too tired to think of anything profound to say (put in a fence ourselves today...whew!), but I just wanted to tell you that I am completely impressed and so very grateful to you for including information on learning challenges in your book! It will be helpful to so many people who otherwise might just give up on classical education for their LD child. It can be done, and IMO there is no reason it can't be done, but it is definitely more difficult and requires flexibility and creativity. Encouragement from you will go a long ways towards helping those of us who want to educate our LD child classically to stay the course.

 

I'm going to ponder this overnight and come back at it again after I've had some sleep. Again, THANK YOU, thank you, thank you for considering this! Once again, you are awesome.

[Laurie4b]

The mindset about outlining is another thing that I've thought of that typically needs to be different when teaching classically to kids with LD's or other special needs versus teaching kids without those challenges. Good alternatives for kids with LD's or ADD or whatever are: 1) Those graphic organizers with bubbles in them and 2) The 3 word outline technique in IEW. The graphic organizers let kids write down ideas without first organizing those ideas. Since this is the way their brains function (kinda random), it's really helpful for them to get the thoughts on paper randomly first. I've often let mine go from the graphic organizer to writing by just having them number the order of the ideas and crossing out ones they'll leave out. 2) IEW's method is helpful because the 3 key words are the ones that make sense to the kid. Three words can be kinda random as well, but fits the child's brain's way of doing things.

 

With either of these methods, you also eliminate the process of indentation (a lot of kids struggle to line things up who have dysgraphia, for instance, or visual processing deficits. ) You eliminate the number, letter, number thing and what kind of number and letter, which is also challenging for kids with LD's. With the 3 key word approach, you also eliminate a lot of actual "words". Since many of these kids need accomodations that require writing less, this is a natural way to go.

 

I know this goes against the classical approach to outlining before writing, but I also know that approach is fraught with unnecessary pitfalls for kids who have LD's.

[JFSinIL]

 

For specifics: With reading, parents need to know that by far the most common cause of dyslexia is difficulty with phonemic awareness. Phonemic awareness is the brain's ability to "get" that words are made up of individual sounds. Some people's brains don't process words that way. If your brain isn't distinguishing individual sounds, and you start with phonics, it's going to be a wash: "Here sweetie, this symbol stands for this sound." "Whatever you say, mom". Phonemic awareness is the foundation of phonics. You can't associate sounds and symbols without getting the bit about sounds.

 

There are two streams of reading approaches that seem to work well with kids with phonemic awareness issues: the Phonographix family and the Orton-Gillingham family. The Phonographix family includes Reading Reflex, ABCDarian, and later on , REWARDS . Members of the Orton Gillingham family are Wilson and Barton. People can also hire Orton-Gillingham tutors. Phonographix works with sounds only, not names of letters. (That comes later). It doesn't work with any rules, but rather with probabilities. So, you would be taught that when you see the vowel combination ow, you try the two possibilities and see which makes a real word. OG is more rules based. They both work.

 

 

Please use this info in any chapter on special needs...even in a chapter on teaching neurotypical ("regular") kids to read! Best concise explanation I have yet read.

I used Reading Reflex (just the $12 book from Amazon) to get three of mine to read - had to zerox pages and cut up phonograms and use a lot of envelopes, etc. but was a cheap and effective program. Teaching reading does not have to be expensive.

[Ms. Riding Hood]

First, it would be a true service to moms to counter the prevalent homeschool myth of the "late bloomer". True late bloomers exist, but they are statistically rare. Contrast that with 20% dyslexia. If your kiddo is having problems learning to read, which is the more likely cause?

 

Laurie said so many great things in her several posts, but I think the above quote is very important. Reading should not be hard for kids at the K/1 age. Many parents have never taught reading before and are insecure about their own abilities/methods/qualifications, etc. They need to know what to look for--things that are normal, and things that are not.

 

I'm not well versed in things LD, and so do not understand the range of possibilities that exist as far as diagnoses and the learning/behavioral problems that they entail. Dyslexia (the problem in our home) is only one of many things which require very different diagnostics and remediation. Obviously a single chapter can only address things in a general way; I see your role as encouraging parents to be aware of warning signs (lists of these would be helpful), pointing to other resources, and also reassuring parents that in many (if not most) cases, they can be the best source of help for their children. Public schools are rarely able to provide the kind of help that kids need in an effective way. Homeschooling is often an ideal situation for both children who have learning difficulties and for their parents (you could find research to support that, or at least to illustrate the ineffectiveness of traditional special education classes, or to show how drop-outs are almost always suffering from some type of LD). I think it's important for parents to realize that it is not necessary, nor even wise, to hand their kids over to the special ed. system in order to get the kind of help they need and deserve.

 

If you (SWB) share this philosophy, then I think it is an invaluable thing to communicate to parents. This reminds me of the Ruth Beechick title You CAN Teach Your Child Successfully--emphasis on CAN! In my opinion, parents of LD kids need to hear that more than anybody. The Well-Trained Mind does much to empower parents to take on the task of home education, and a chapter that extends that mission to include kids with special learning issues would be most welcome. There is a real need!

 

As far as specific programs we've used, the only one that really comes to mind as being a great help for my dyslexic ds is IEW. This program really helped his writing take off to a new level--very systematic and concrete, simple examples and reading for practicing outlining, step-by-step instruction and checklists. It is a rather formulaic approach, but really helped him develop a great base that he could then build upon.

[Suzybearybake]

A section on LD in your next book would be wonderful. We are in the process of trying to get my son diagnosed for dyslexia and are still attempting to figure out what works for him. I have been to every site and book that I can find looking for curriculum recommendations. Most books come across well in explaining the specifics of the condition but are severely lacking in any form of instruction on how to re mediate at home. They assume that you will be sending the child to public school and list resources based on that assumption. This site is where I have found most of the recommendations that have been specific enough to be useful.

The materials that we are finding that work are as follows:

-Math- Math-U-See, Teaching Textbooks

-Reading- Abecedarian, Toe BY Toe ( Wilson and Barton were just too expensive.)

-Spelling- All ABout Spelling (K-4), Megawords(5-8), Sequencial Spelling (5-12)

-Vocabulary- Wordsmart

-Grammar- First Language Lessons, Growing with Grammar, Analytical Grammar

-Science- not sure

-History- Story of the World CD's , books, and activity books (book 1 and 2)( Books 3 and 4 required too much outlining and he could not do it.)I am still looking for upper level history.

-Handwriting- Handwriting Without Tears

-Writing- IEW

Thank you so much for taking the time to research this topic and address it in your book. We really are an under-served market. Your guidance has been instrumental in allowing me to navigate through a sea of options. Without The Well Trained Mind, I do not believe that I would have had the confidence to tackle homeschooling. If you could lend that same direction in this area , we would we extremely grateful.

[Suzybearybake]

A section on LD in your next book would be wonderful. We are in the process of trying to get my son diagnosed for dyslexia and are still attempting to figure out what works for him. I have been to every site and book that I can find looking for curriculum recommendations. Most books come across well in explaining the specifics of the condition but are severely lacking in any form of instruction on how to re mediate at home. They assume that you will be sending the child to public school and list resources based on that assumption. This site is where I have found most of the recommendations that have been specific enough to be useful.

The materials that we are finding that work are as follows:

-Math- Math-U-See, Teaching Textbooks

-Reading- Abecedarian, Toe BY Toe ( Wilson and Barton were just too expensive.)

-Spelling- All ABout Spelling (K-4), Megawords(5-8), Sequencial Spelling (5-12)

-Vocabulary- Wordsmart

-Grammar- First Language Lessons, Growing with Grammar, Analytical Grammar

-Science- not sure

-History- Story of the World CD's , books, and activity books (book 1 and 2)( Books 3 and 4 required too much outlining and he could not do it.)I am still looking for upper level history.

-Handwriting- Handwriting Without Tears

-Writing- IEW

Thank you so much for taking the time to research this topic and address it in your book. We really are an under-served market. Your guidance has been instrumental in allowing me to navigate through a sea of options. Without The Well Trained Mind, I do not believe that I would have had the confidence to tackle homeschooling. If you could lend that same direction in this area , we would we extremely grateful.

[rafiki]

nt

Edited November 21, 2012 by one l michele
adding link

[Pen]

bumping another great thread for the newbies

 

link to the cross post as well

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showthread.php?t=36603&highlight=An+open+invitation+to+parents+of+learning-challenged+kids

 

Thank you!!! I wish they could be made to stay tacked at the top and maybe continued with more up to date on same subject!

[Elizabeth in MN]

*makes a pot of tea and thinks*

 

I speak for me, so this may not be applicable to ant other SNs families.

 

I agree that parents need to be encouraged to follow their gut if they think something is wrong. With my dd, I had a feeling something was off when she was four and got her evaluated. The specialists said she was a "normally developing Gifted child". It wasn't until she was twelve that a specialist was able to see what I saw - Asperger's. But long before that I had been adapting the suggestions in TWTM for my dd. Generally speaking I followed the suggestions from the first edition of TWTM. Everything was very relaxed in my home.

 

My dd picked up letters quickly, sounds almost instantly but took a while before she wanted to be able to read. She is not and never has been a bookworm. I thought it was genetically predetermined, but no.

 

She HATED the dot to dot book, coloring books, and anything really pre-formed. It was a blank page or nothing at all. Art she loved, proper pencil grip could reduce her to tears. Learning handwriting took a long time and that pushed a lot of TWTM suggestions back a bit. However, I did put on my evil mother hat and made her learn to do neat handwriting. Now I let her type up what needs to be written. She still does handwriting in workbooks, though. Another huge issue was that my dd is a lefty. It took us a while to find something that worked. We did well with "Beautiful Handwriting for Children" for printing and then used "Cursive Writing Skills for Left-Handed Students" by Educators Publishing Service. Why cursive? Well, for one it's been used historically on documents for centuries. Another is that my mom lives with us and she only writes in cursive.

 

Math was always fun. We did real world math and she is good at counting and skip counting. Everything came easily to her until we hit multiplication. We're still working on having her memorize her times tables. It's not something that comes naturally to her, and it even seems contrary to her nature. But like handwriting, she needs to know it.

 

Science is hit or miss. If we could afford it we'd do experiments every day. We can't, so I went with the Janice Vancleave "Every Kid" series. We try and follow the subjects as suggested in TWTM.

 

History - I'm not sure if it's my disability, my being a single mom, or my daughter's issues but we went with the CD versions of SOTW. These have been a life saver. One thing that has been very positive with the learning issues is that my dd has issues with male authority figures. Hearing Jim Weiss do the readings has helped her overcome her aversion.

 

Art was hard. If it's her creating something she wants then she loves it. If it's an assignment she'll try it but if it becomes too frustrating for her she'll come to hate it. This subject has come into the category of what I call "tasting bite education". We will try something out and if she doesn't like it we'll chuck it and move on. Drawing she didn't like. so we chucked it and moved on to Watercolors. She liked Watercolor painting until it came to landscapes. We chucked it and are moving on to sculpting. For biographies she has loved the Mike Venzia books. I should do the music ones with her but... someday.

 

Music has been the same as art. She HATES listening to music while doing school work. It's too distracting for her. We live in a rural town that is pretty quiet and even the rare car driving by is distracting for her.

 

Geography has been another hard subject. I really like the Evan-Moore continent series, but she doesn't. Well, she likes some of it. I'll make her do the work of finding counties on the map, labeling the capitol city and the like. The work of finding the GNP of a select country or reporting on natural resources we skip.

 

Latin - Oh my lord in heaven, that subject makes me want to drink a glass of water. Or even something a little bit more stiff. She would cry when we got out Prima Latina. Hate is not a strong enough word for how she felt about Latin. This is where some of her Aspie tendencies came out - she didn't see the point in it, it frustrated her, and she totally rejected it.

 

Logic - she loves, loves, LOVES logic. If I'm ever found dead of unnatural causes know it's because I stopped the Logic classes (LOL). She loves verbal logic puzzles and could finish them before I stopped reading them!

 

The last subject is religion. Because of her love of Logic, combined with Aspie tendencies and a prayer gone wrong my dd has rejected all ideas of a higher power. I can not use any religion based education materials, like Rod and Staff, because she can't get past the religious aspects of the teachings.

 

If I could boil this all down to a sentence or two I would. For me, in home educating a special needs it all boils down to respect and strength. I need to be respectful of what my child needs, wants and her abilities. I need to play up her strengths and shore-up her weaknesses. I need to respect my intuition and follow it. Lastly, I need to be strong enough to take my child to the places she may not want to go be *needs* to in order to be a self-sufficient adult.

[Whereneverever]

I'd love to see stuff on working with doctors and professionals and homeschooling a special needs child. That can be dizzying and frustrating.

[KathyBC]

A section on LD in your next book would be wonderful. We are in the process of trying to get my son diagnosed for dyslexia and are still attempting to figure out what works for him. I have been to every site and book that I can find looking for curriculum recommendations. Most books come across well in explaining the specifics of the condition but are severely lacking in any form of instruction on how to re mediate at home. They assume that you will be sending the child to public school and list resources based on that assumption. This site is where I have found most of the recommendations that have been specific enough to be useful.

The materials that we are finding that work are as follows:

-Math- Math-U-See, Teaching Textbooks

-Reading- Abecedarian, Toe BY Toe ( Wilson and Barton were just too expensive.)

-Spelling- All ABout Spelling (K-4), Megawords(5-8), Sequencial Spelling (5-12)

-Vocabulary- Wordsmart

-Grammar- First Language Lessons, Growing with Grammar, Analytical Grammar

-Science- not sure

-History- Story of the World CD's , books, and activity books (book 1 and 2)( Books 3 and 4 required too much outlining and he could not do it.)I am still looking for upper level history.

-Handwriting- Handwriting Without Tears

-Writing- IEW

Thank you so much for taking the time to research this topic and address it in your book. We really are an under-served market. Your guidance has been instrumental in allowing me to navigate through a sea of options. Without The Well Trained Mind, I do not believe that I would have had the confidence to tackle homeschooling. If you could lend that same direction in this area , we would we extremely grateful.

 

This list is great. I would add:

Reading - Scaredy Cat Reading System (Joyce Herzog), REWARDS Reading (Sopris West)

Grammar - Abeka Oral Language Lessons, Winston Grammar (the hands-on method with cards can be helpful)

Science - Rainbow Science

[KathyBC]

Parents should know that difficulty with speech often is an early symptom of reading difficulties. That way, they can be on the lookout and jump on things earlier rather than later. Reversals are not symptomatic of dyslexia; difficulty with rhyming is.

 

The importance of "fluency" in the development of reading is often overlooked. Repeated oral readings are the research-based way to best develop fluency.

 

 

Yup, the difference between auditory and visual dyslexia could be clarified to the general public. Reversals are symptomatic of visual dyslexia; difficulty with rhyming is symptomatic of auditory dyslexia.

[Kim in Appalachia]

After reading all the posts on the K-8 board and here, I want to chime in with the idea of not suggesting specific curricula but instead reassuring parents that it is alright to modify things to fit their own child. It seems to me parents so often think that a classical education is more about the specific methods of instruction rather than the end result, so they make themselves and their kids miserable in trying to implement something exactly as you've described it in your book.

 

I'm thinking specifically of all the writing that is asked of grammar stage kids. I want your readers to know that is ok for their kids to learn how to type, that it is ok for narrations to be oral, that mom can act as a scribe. I also want them to know that reading aloud and books on tape are quite acceptable for even high schoolers. That lessons can be done while sprawled out on the living room floor with mom using a white board and colorful markers while the child dictates.

 

My oldest son is an "Aspie" with very impaired executive functions who has one last year of high school. This year we did Jacobs geometry the same way we did Singapore math in 3rd grade -- on the living room floor with a big white board and colorful markers. He has typed everything since he learned how in 2nd grade, though he has used workbooks over the years to be sure he has legible handwriting. He didn't write narrations until 7th grade, but now can write a decent essay. His passion is theater, so in 9th grade his literature studies focused on modern plays. Very little of his school work looks like what you've recommended in the WTM for high school, and he is not headed for a small liberal arts college. But he has those qualities which I wanted from a classical education: he thinks about what he reads or hears, analyzes the information, forms his own opinions and clearly articulates his opinions in writing or in discussions. He's a bit too articulate and persistent about sharing his opinions sometimes, but that's another issue!

 

By the way, what are your opinions about modifications for learning challenged kids?

 

:iagree:

 

This is what I was thinking when I first read your question. To know that, yes, when your child is dyslexic and struggling to read and spell, it's OK to drop Latin and work on the basics. When your child has dysgraphia, it's OK to skip all of the copy work and do narrations orally. And it's even ok to move over to more traditional curriculum (text-books) for the struggling learner, and supplement that. For instance, I am now using a traditional SS program, but we still listen to SOTW. My kids know all of the stories because we listen to it over and over. We listen to good books and talk about them, but use a traditional reading program for my kids who seemed to not be able to pick up the details.

 

I think the most important thing you can tell a parent with a LD child is to do what works. Keep the end-goal in mind and do whatever you need to do to reach it.

[AmyontheFarm]

I think the most important thing you can tell a parent with a LD child is to do what works. Keep the end-goal in mind and do whatever you need to do to reach it.

 

:iagree:When I first started to consider homeschooling as an option for my ds, a girlfriend handed me her copy of TWTM. I read it through in two days. Then, I sat down and made a chart of the areas of study and curriculum suggested for a child my son's age. Then, I worked systematically through each subject and list of suggested curriculum to figure out what would be the best for my child. I spent hours and hours on this website gleaning from parents who have gone before me, to learn what worked and didn't work for their kids. I prayed a lot and since I had already learned to trust my gut with other area's of my son physical and medical therapies, I knew to trust it when it came time to select curriculum.

 

What we do in this house to learn, would look completely different than at my best friend's house. But, the final goal is the same. That's the point. Every child is different, their trip to Rome will look different then another child's trip to Rome. But that is ok, many roads lead to Rome, the road trip is part of the fun!

[jenL]

I have nothing brilliant to add because we are at the beginning of this road, and ds1 is currently in the process of all the neuropsych testing. However, I must say a HUGE thank you to you SWB, for your willingness to broach this topic in TWTM. Making moms like me feel like it's "safe" to step off the exact WTM path will be such a blessing! If it weren't for those in this sub-forum who have gone before me, I'd be more stressed than I am about my son's issues. It takes courage to make the "out-of-the-box" curriculum changes vs. the typical classical education curriculum suggestions, and these moms have so lovingly provided it.

[NittanyJen]

Susan,

 

Thank you for considering including a chapter on this topic!

 

I would toss out some of these thoughts:

 

Kids with executive function disorders may still struggle even with a planner, though it is a good start. One goal of schooling is to prepare them for life, so think long-term; it may seem easier to just hand them small chunks of information at a time, and when they are young, this is a very good idea. Over time, however, even beginning toward the end of grammar stage, it is time to begin involving the child in planning. Give them a longer piece of the list at a time, and sit with them and help them number items in the order they are to be done. After a suitable time, give the student practice in choosing the order for himself. The goal is that by graduation time, the student is capable of organizing and prioritizing for himself.

 

When there are specific challenges, sometimes breaking them out of the academics and treating them separately for a time helps, until the roadblock is sufficiently mastered to reintegrate it back into the schoolwork. Example: For a child with dysgraphia or another handwriting-related difficulty, treat handwriting (and/or typing) as a standalone subject, and for academic pursuits, provide solutions such as scribing for the child, allow them to type (or provide typing lessons), having them record themselves narrating, providing alternate writing surfaces, or whatever else works. Don't tie the child's academic advancement to their ability to write. Consider the value of activities such as copywork and dictation in the development of integrating the skills of writing and coping with later academic work. As with the ability to learn how to prioritize, the long-term goal is once again independence for the student, but until the ability to function, in one way or another (improved handwriting ability, recording and transcribing, or typing in some workable combination) arrangements should be made to not permit the child's writing struggles, no matter what the basis, to hold him back academically.

 

Please remember: we all get frustrated. There are days when we all get tired, grumpy, and frazzled. Your child is, in all likelihood, working his hardest and doing his best. The vast majority of children wish to please, and his inability to follow directions, remember what you discussed yesterday, learn to make his 3's forward, or whatever is making you nuts, is NOT deliberate. Give him the benefit of the doubt and remember, he is probably trying very, very hard. Believe in him.

 

Support forums such as The Well Trained Mind Forum are fantastic resources and a source of terrific ideas. They are also a source of anxiety and suggestions that must be taken with a grain of salt. There is NO magic bullet curriculum that you should force you kid to try to like, no matter how many parents seem to be chattering about it. You are not failing your kid if you don't use Singapore Math or AoPS if CLE or Rod and Staff is working for him and makes sense. If Teaching Textbooks is making math happen, ignore posts that insist that it is "behind." Behind what? Your child is exactly where he is, no matter what curriculum he is using. If he was ready to accelerate and do higher math, he would just move more quickly through any curriculum you were using, would he not? Use what works for your child. Don't worry about the poster who says her kid is taking AP Calculus in second grade. The kid might be a genius, or might be on a fast course toward crash and burn because the Mom has no clue what she is doing. Not your problem in either case; you are parenting YOUR child, and nobody is standing at a finish line handing out medals for "first to finish all math in the universe." (Here is a clue: the kid could prove Fermat's Last Theorem, and still have more math to do. People who got their PhD's 40 years ago still haven't done that). Your kid does not need to measure up to that of a stranger on a message board. Take inspiration where you can find it, and ignore the rest. You have a huge community of other parents here on TWTM who know that a great day means noticing that at age 9, your kid finally learned how to use the swings properly, or is showing signs of potty training, too.

 

Homeschooling can address one terrific weakness of school: In bricks and mortar school, a child can get a 75% on a math test, then move on to new material that requires him to use math of which he has failed to master 25%. In homeschooling, we have the luxury of avoiding that problem because we are not managing a class of 30. Go back, review, and master foundational material before moving on. This is three times as important with an exceptional child.

 

Classical education can be fantastically successful for the exceptional child. Learning Latin can help the child with language difficulties master "exception" spelling words that don't seem to follow the rules-- they do follow rules, it just happens to be the rules of Latin, not English. Those Latin vocabulary words and stems also help build vocabulary very effectively. Children with memory issues can benefit from the logical progression of information from grammar to logic to rhetoric stage, in which much information is encountered multiple times but in different contexts, and skills are built sequentially. Critical thinking skills are acquired through the study of logic. Music has been shown to aid in mathematical reasoning, and much music and art history is tied to human history. The organized structure of classical education is often more sensible than the hodgepodge approach for exceptional children, who may have difficulty organizing information in memory.

 

I am sure I will have more, but the dinner bell beckons . . .

[Oakblossoms]

My oldest and third son have learning delays. My best piece of advice is to look at the suggested materials as learning levels instead of age levels. I don't try to do Grade 3 materials just because he is 8. I would do Level 1 materials till he can master those and then move on to the next level. My High Schooler is working with Writing with Skill because that is the level he is at. And, that is something you just have to accept.

 

We school year round and include Saturday. I just found trying to fit everything into a perfect school year is not enough time for us.