All of Language Arts done in 60 minutes a day?

[5LittleMonkeys]

The link everyone is posting in the Circe thread for the daily schedule at Great Books Academy shows doing LA daily for 60 minutes. Really? I'm doing something wrong apparently. LA to me includes: writing\composition, grammar, spelling, vocabulary, penmanship, literature, poetry, comprehension in the early years and analysis later on. Did I leave anything out? Okay, so they have literature reading separated out, but that still leaves 6 other components. So, let's even leave penmanship out since I have my dd practice that during other subjects. I still don't know how to get writing, grammar, vocab, spelling and poetry done in 60 minutes a day.

 

I'm not trying to adhere exclusively to the methods prescribed by Great Books Academy or by Circe, but the idea of LA only taking 60 minutes a day would sure make life nicer. Is that really reasonable though? In a classical education can Language Arts really be done effectively in such a short period of time? The schedule I saw was for 6th grade...I can't even get all those subjects done in 60 minutes with a 3rd grader. Grammar and a daily writing assignment alone take about 60 minutes here. Is it that each component is only done a couple times a week instead of daily? If so, what does that look like...which subjects can be done only 2 or 3 days a week?

 

Enlighten me please.

[momto2Cs]

Just my 2 cents here...

 

I do think that some of those subjects can be rotated, such as grammar and vocabulary. I tend not to do vocab as a separate program anyhow because my kids seem to pick up a lot simply from literature, and yes, I do stop and explain words when they ask.

 

Comprehension and analysis to me goes along with literature, as does poetry. So I'd lump those under "Literature"

 

For my ds10 (fifth grade), we do...

 

Daily copywork for handwriting (10 minutes)

Daily spelling work (maybe 15 minutes)

And a writing project of some type (3x/week) OR grammar (2x/week) (30'ish minutes)

 

In the fall, I will be adding in Getting Started with Latin. That might add another 15 minutes. I'm not sure he'll need to continue with copywork at that point, but we'll see.

[Laura Corin]

I didn't do everything every day. We used an all-in-one English programme that cycled through all the subjects you mention chapter by chapter. I'm pretty sure we used to get English done in an hour.

 

Laura

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

No, IMHO 1 hour a day for LA for 3rd grade is inadequate. We easily spent at least 2-3 hours a day on LA and still do:001_huh:

[5LittleMonkeys]

Just my 2 cents here...

 

I do think that some of those subjects can be rotated, such as grammar and vocabulary. I tend not to do vocab as a separate program anyhow because my kids seem to pick up a lot simply from literature, and yes, I do stop and explain words when they ask.Yes, I can see an increase in her vocab this year as we've been reading a lot of classics.

 

Comprehension and analysis to me goes along with literature, as does poetry. So I'd lump those under "Literature"Okay, so would you drop your lit. reading one day a week for a lesson in poetry? I'm not talking about just memorization; I mean more like studying elements\genres\authors.

 

For my ds10 (fifth grade), we do...

 

Daily copywork for handwriting (10 minutes)

Daily spelling work (maybe 15 minutes)

And a writing project of some type (3x/week) OR grammar (2x/week) (30'ish minutes)This is where I'm getting stumped. I was thinking grammar needed to be done daily, as this is how it is scheduled in most programs. Right now we are going through Grammar-Land and doing a chapter each day. I should probably back off on that. Also, I'm scheduling a writing assignment everyday...that probably is too much.

 

In the fall, I will be adding in Getting Started with Latin. That might add another 15 minutes. I'm not sure he'll need to continue with copywork at that point, but we'll see.

 

So, with the grammar... I'm assuming you double up lessons on the days you do grammar so you can get through the whole program in one year?

 

Thanks!

[TracyP]

To me LA's would include writing, grammar, penmanship, spelling and vocab. The other components fall under the literature heading. I am not doing a formal vocab or penmanship program, but we easily get done in under an hour (with an 8yo, ymmv).

 

Writing 30 min: copywork or dictation(10 min), "real" writing(20 min - max it is often less)

Grammar 10 min

Spelling 10 min: this is 3 x's per week, write letter or in journal on other days

 

I still have 10 min to spare, but I don't know how this works out with older kids.

[Marie131]

We get all our LA done in 30 min, but then we are just gr 1 so that may be the difference. I also don't include independent reading or read alouds in that time. If we included those, then yeah, it would be an hour easy. Honestly, I don't know how peeps do it spending an hour or more per kid on just LA not too mention everything else. :001_huh:

[MerryAtHope]

In grades 1-8 I aim for an hour a day plus reading time, plus literature read-alouds when we also discuss vocabulary and literary elements etc...

 

Poetry I usually do in a Tuesday Tea format, so not daily.

 

Writing and grammar I alternate (daily, weekly, by units, or even yearly, depending on the program). I aim to spend 30-40 minutes per day on one of these. In the early years, this would be phonics/reading instruction instead.

 

penmanship I cover in grades K-5 (my son also did in 6th), and across the curriculum, about 10 minutes direct instruction.

 

spelling 15-20 minutes per day.

 

So...if they aren't counting reading and lit. discussions and read-alouds, then an hour a day could work.

 

Merry :-)

[MrsBear]

DS7 is a second grader and we do more than an hour a day, just break it up.

 

Phonics 30 min daily

Reading 30 min x 2 times in a day daily

Handwriting 15 min daily

 

Spelling 30 min 2x a week

Grammar 30 min 3x a week

 

Reading/Listening Comprehension 15 min 2x a week

Writing 15 min 3x a week

 

Basically 2 hours a day!

[5LittleMonkeys]

I didn't do everything every day. We used an all-in-one English programme that cycled through all the subjects you mention chapter by chapter. I'm pretty sure we used to get English done in an hour.

 

Laura

 

What did you use?

 

No, IMHO 1 hour a day for LA for 3rd grade is inadequate. We easily spent at least 2-3 hours a day on LA and still do:001_huh:

 

How does it break down for you? How much do you spend on grammar, then spelling, etc. Are all of your LA components separate, or are some of them included in other areas? Such as writing across the curricula or vocab included in your lit and Latin studies. Do you do each component daily?

 

Thanks!

[Chelli]

My dd8 (2nd grader) does the following for LA:

 

Grammar: The Sentence Family/Galore Park (10 minutes) two days a week.

 

Writing: WWE2 without dictation/WWW2 (15 minutes) three days a week. We use our WWE copywork and narrations to review and find the parts of speech we've already learned about with The Sentence Family and Galore Park, so this is really more of a grammar/writing integrated approach.

 

Spelling: Apples and Pears (20 minutes) four days a week.

 

Vocabulary: included in our history program (15 minutes) 1 day a week

 

Handwriting: New American Cursive (10 minutes) 4 days a week

 

It averages out to about 40-45 minutes a day. I don't see this changing much, except I will begin to require writing assignments next year (only a paragraph), but that will be done on one day by itself when we aren't doing any other LA except focusing on writing skills.

 

As we expand on our writing skills and need handwriting less, then I can see us maxing out around 1 hour, but I will continue to stagger and integrate grammar and writing instruction.

[2squared]

The link everyone is posting in the Circe thread for the daily schedule at Great Books Academy shows doing LA daily for 60 minutes. Really? I'm doing something wrong apparently. LA to me includes: writing\composition, grammar, spelling, vocabulary, penmanship, literature, poetry, comprehension in the early years and analysis later on. Did I leave anything out? Okay, so they have literature reading separated out, but that still leaves 6 other components. So, let's even leave penmanship out since I have my dd practice that during other subjects. I still don't know how to get writing, grammar, vocab, spelling and poetry done in 60 minutes a day.

 

I'm looking at about 60 minutes for LA for my 5th grader next year. Here are my thoughts of how to break it down:

 

30 min - writing

10 min - copywork/penmanship

20 min - dictation (grammar and spelling)

 

I would think vocab, literature, poetry, and comprehension fall under literature. Vocab and comprehension would be via literature discussion, and poetry analysis would be a separate unit at some time during the year.

[Bluegoat]

I don't find it that odd as a rough guess for 6th grade. I think LCC in the second ed. has a similar suggested time. They would include literature and poetry separately, which is usual for all curricula I have seen. Vocab and grammar are mostly done through Latin. And they suggest about an hour a day for CW for other needs. Younger kids do copywork and phonics until they add in Latin and CW in grade two or three.

 

A lot more than an hour doesn't seem like it would leave enough time for other things at that age.

[Laura Corin]

What did you use?

 

 

Assigned reading was on top of that.

 

Laura

[Chrysalis Academy]

We do about an hour a day, not counting reading/literature or assigned reading. Thats ~30 min of writing daily, then cycling through the MCT components, about another 30 min ea day (vocab, Paragraph Town, Practice Town, KISS Grammar, and Poetry).

 

Reading/literature discussion is on top of that, and is an additional hour plus per day.

[5LittleMonkeys]

20 min - dictation (grammar and spelling)You don't use a formal grammar program? I've heard of doing spelling with dictation, but how does that look with grammar? I'm intrigued now because I'm on the hunt for something other than traditional formal grammar.

 

I would think vocab, literature, poetry, and comprehension fall under literature. Vocab and comprehension would be via literature discussion, and poetry analysis would be a separate unit at some time during the year.

We've done poetry memorization and just reading but haven't done analysis yet. What type of time period would you allow for a 4th grader for this type of unit, and could you recommend something you've used?

[Ellie]

We do about an hour a day, not counting reading/literature or assigned reading. Thats ~30 min of writing daily, then cycling through the MCT components, about another 30 min ea day (vocab, Paragraph Town, Practice Town, KISS Grammar, and Poetry).

 

Reading/literature discussion is on top of that, and is an additional hour plus per day.

So that's actually, according to the OP's analysis of what "language arts" is, two hours a day, not one.

 

Not that it matters, but ITA with the OP about what makes up "language arts." :-)

[Chrysalis Academy]

The link everyone is posting in the Circe thread for the daily schedule at Great Books Academy shows doing LA daily for 60 minutes. Really? I'm doing something wrong apparently. LA to me includes: writing\composition, grammar, spelling, vocabulary, penmanship, literature, poetry, comprehension in the early years and analysis later on. Did I leave anything out? Okay, so they have literature reading separated out, but that still leaves 6 other components. So, let's even leave penmanship out since I have my dd practice that during other subjects. I still don't know how to get writing, grammar, vocab, spelling and poetry done in 60 minutes a day.

 

I'm not trying to adhere exclusively to the methods prescribed by Great Books Academy or by Circe, but the idea of LA only taking 60 minutes a day would sure make life nicer. Is that really reasonable though? In a classical education can Language Arts really be done effectively in such a short period of time? The schedule I saw was for 6th grade...I can't even get all those subjects done in 60 minutes with a 3rd grader. Grammar and a daily writing assignment alone take about 60 minutes here. Is it that each component is only done a couple times a week instead of daily? If so, what does that look like...which subjects can be done only 2 or 3 days a week?

 

Enlighten me please.

 

This is the question I was trying to address - *if* you separate out literature reading, *and* you do several of the components only once or twice a week, it works.

[Mommamia]

No, IMHO 1 hour a day for LA for 3rd grade is inadequate. We easily spent at least 2-3 hours a day on LA and still do:001_huh:

 

May I ask what you are using for LA? 3 hours a day?

[5LittleMonkeys]

I can see three hours if you include all the elements I mentioned and did them each day.

 

Writing 30 min

grammar 30 min.

Spelling and vocabulary 30 min.

Poetry 20 min.

Penmanship 15 min. (before we used other subjects for practice)

Literature 45 - 60 min.

 

I know because I've done this before. It's overwhelming and didn't leave much time for other things.

[2squared]

A lot more than an hour doesn't seem like it would leave enough time for other things at that age.

 

:iagree: It wouldn't leave enough time for other things or enough time for me to spend with my other kids.

 

 

You don't use a formal grammar program? I've heard of doing spelling with dictation, but how does that look with grammar? I'm intrigued now because I'm on the hunt for something other than traditional formal grammar.

 

I don't use a formal grammar program. If I did, though, I wouldn't use one every day for an entire year. I would probably pick something like AG.

 

For us, grammar and spelling look very similar via dictation. I absolutely love the Dictation-Day-by-Day free from Google books. My kids do four dictations/week from their respective levels. Depending on the day's passage, we cover spelling, punctuation, homophones, contractions, compound words, plurals, grammar, etc. Each passage seems to lend itself to a particular topic(s) or a particular spelling pattern.

 

I am writing lessons for my oldest for next year so she can do more of the work independently. I have typed each passage and given her instructions to complete before she comes to me for the dictation. The instructions are simple like "underline each noun in blue once and each pronoun in blue twice" or "using the words in the passage, identify which words have homonyms and write the homonym pairs" or "write the past tense of each verb." Each week I included a new grammar topic which I blatantly stole from the table of contents from CHC's Language of God. I don't particularly like LoG, but the topics covered seem to be solid, so I am determined to use the information in a format that I prefer.

 

We've done poetry memorization and just reading but haven't done analysis yet. What type of time period would you allow for a 4th grader for this type of unit, and could you recommend something you've used?

 

Ah...I can't answer this question because I wouldn't do poetry analysis with a 4th grader. Analysis just doesn't hit high enough on the priority list for my 4th graders given the rest of my family's needs. I am eyeing CW's Poetry for Beginners for 5th or 6th grades.

 

Did I mention that Dictation-Day-by-Day includes a poetry selection every week? Well, at least has been in the fourth year. They aren't necessarily well-known poems, but I like that they are right there without any extra effort expending by me.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

Dictation-Day-by-Day

 

Off to check this out. Thanks!

[SilverMoon]

If you separate literature, my third grader can easily do his in an hour, but my sixth grader would have a harder time squishing it that much.

 

Here's a breakdown from the OP, for my third grader. Even if you add his memory block it won't go over an hour.

Writing\composition: WTM style that blends seamlessly into science and history, 10 minutes if we do a dictation (He starts CW Aesop next week. I expect 20-30 minutes a day, max, using the one lesson across two weeks schedule.)

Grammar: 15 minutes in FLL

Spelling: 10-15 minutes doing a worksheet from R&S or practicing words

Vocabulary: n/a (he gets plenty between spelling, reading and Latin)

Penmanship: n/a (he is fluent in cursive and gets plenty in writing and spelling)

 

Literature: I think he logged about 40-50 minutes today, between Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Childhood of George Washington. (That's not counting read alouds.)

Poetry: memory block or free reading

Comprehension in the early years and analysis later on: I asked him what happened in his story and he filled in the details, ad nauseum. It took ten minutes before I could get him to talk about anything else. He comprehended!

 

 

My sixth grader.

Writing\composition: CW Homer, analysis portion 20-30, writing project 30-ish (Not counting history/science outlines/summaries, as they have become automatic and don't need taught anymore.)

Grammar: 15-25, R&S (usually scheduled for CW's lighter days)

Spelling: 10-20, R&S

Vocabulary: n/a, between spelling, CW and Latin anything else would be overkill

Penmanship: n/a (not since she learned cursive)

 

Literature: one hour minimum for assigned literature, she reads c.o.n.s.t.a.n.t.l.y

Poetry: free reading, memory block (next year she'll do Art of Poetry 2x/week)

Comprehension in the early years and analysis later on: CW teaches analysis, and we talk about what she reads as we go about our day (often over dishes)

Edited April 4, 2012 by SilverMoon

[Joyofsixreboot]

My 5th grader's looks something like this

CLE LA-grammar, spelling, penmanship/copy work -30 min

IEW - 20 min /day. avg

Studied dictation-10 min

 

We just do vocab as we come across it. In Latin I point out the roots of English words and he notes anything he doesn't get from his reading. I don't count his reading as LA time as it's usually part of history or science and he reads aloud the history selection with 2nd grader.

[boscopup]

We do that in 60 minutes. Let's see...

 

Grammar: 10-15 minutes, 3x/week

Writing: 10-15 minutes, 3x/week (we do 4 WWE days in 3)

Spelling: 15 minutes, 4x/week

Vocab: n/a

Poetry: n/a

Penmanship: usually combined with Writing, but right now we are doing it separately, 10 minutes, 5x/week.

 

Next year, I'm planning to do MCT, which would take care of Vocab, Poetry, and Grammar in about 30 minutes a day, 4x/week. So that leaves 15 minutes for spelling and 15 minutes for writing (including penmanship). That will still be about an hour a day for 3rd grade, and I think that's appropriate when not counting literature.

 

Assigned literature here takes probably 10 minutes (he's a fast reader). I do a read-aloud for another 15 minutes probably. And of course, DS reads a ton on his own anyway. I'm always having to take books away from him so he can do his schoolwork. :tongue_smilie:

[5LittleMonkeys]

Thanks everyone. I definitely want to get LA down to 1 hour, not including literature or poetry. How does this sound for a 4th grade line-up:

 

Mon, Wed and Fri. \ IEW - 30 min. (writing, some grammar, and penmanship)

Visual Latin - 30 min. (grammar and vocab)

 

Tue, and Thur. \ Killgallon - 30 min. (writing and some grammar)

Fix It - 15 min. (grammar)

Spelling - 15 min. (this dd seems to be a natural speller and we discuss spelling as we come across it so I think 2 more focused sessions a week on our spelling journal should be fine.)

 

Then we will do literature on Mon, Tue, Wed, and Thur leaving Fri for poetry (no analysis but maybe talking about the different types of poetry). I will keep the literature down to an hour of read aloud and discussion, but the poetry would only be about 30 min.

 

Getting rid of a separate traditional grammar and folding vocab and spelling into our other subjects frees up a lot of time.

 

Thank you all for helping me think through this.

[2squared]

Thanks everyone. I definitely want to get LA down to 1 hour, not including literature or poetry. How does this sound for a 4th grade line-up:

 

Mon, Wed and Fri. \ IEW - 30 min. (writing, some grammar, and penmanship)

Visual Latin - 30 min. (grammar and vocab)

 

Tue, and Thur. \ Killgallon - 30 min. (writing and some grammar)

Fix It - 15 min. (grammar)

Spelling - 15 min. (this dd seems to be a natural speller and we discuss spelling as we come across it so I think 2 more focused sessions a week on our spelling journal should be fine.)

 

Then we will do literature on Mon, Tue, Wed, and Thur leaving Fri for poetry (no analysis but maybe talking about the different types of poetry). I will keep the literature down to an hour of read aloud and discussion, but the poetry would only be about 30 min.

 

Getting rid of a separate traditional grammar and folding vocab and spelling into our other subjects frees up a lot of time.

 

It seems very reasonable, balanced, and effective. :hurray:

[ByGrace3]

We are around an hour for LA, but the first half of the year it was more when we had more phonics and hw. We will add hw again next year and that will bump it up again.

 

 

LA for us:

Grammar 10 minutes 3X/ week

Writing 10-15 minutes 3Xs/ week

Spelling 15 minutes / 4 Xs/week

Phonics etc 10-15 minutes every day/ was 30 first semester

Handwriting n/a right now but was 5-10 minutes first half of year

Reading 15 minutes aloud, 30 minutes+ on her own

poetry and vocab are parts of other subjects

 

 

Read alouds/lit 30 minutes to 1 hour

 

This is for first, I cannot imagine it getting any less. For K we do 1 hour. 30 minutes of phonics, 5-10 minutes for handwriting, and 10-15 minutes of reading, plus read alouds.

[momtoamiracle]

free Dictation Day by Day!

 

http://archive.org/details/dictationdaybyd02wagegoog

 

 

 

looks great for younger years, I think will work well with FLL.

[momto2Cs]

So, with the grammar... I'm assuming you double up lessons on the days you do grammar so you can get through the whole program in one year?

 

Thanks!

 

I don't actually use a grammar program at this point. We've been loosely studying by reading books by Brian P. Cleary once a week. My plans for next year are simple... grammar once a week by alternating chapters in Grammar Land with the worksheets and The Sentence Family. Throw in some of the beautiful Ruth Heller books.

 

I think your plans in the post you wrote above look really good!

[brill123]

free Dictation Day by Day!

 

http://archive.org/details/dictationdaybyd02wagegoog

 

 

 

 

looks great for younger years, I think will work well with FLL.

thanx for posting!

for which grades we could use these grades 1,2,3 and 4?

[2squared]

thanx for posting!

for which grades we could use these grades 1,2,3 and 4?

 

This particular link looks the the 2nd level which I use for 2nd grade. I've used the third and fourth levels for 3rd and 4th grades, respectively. Next year I plan on using the fifth level for 5th grade, and I hope there's a sixth level. :001_smile:

[brill123]

Could u also give me links for grade 3,4 and 5?

Are these meant for spelling?

[momtoamiracle]

try this and see if you can find more levels.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=-s4AAAAAYAAJ&source=gbs_book_similarbooks

[brill123]

I am not able to download it if you send me direct links of grade 3,4 and

5 I will be grateful....

[stripe]

Could u also give me links for grade 3,4 and 5?

Are these meant for spelling?

I tracked them down once on Google Books

Yeah, it took me forever to find them. I meant to post that it was hard to find them. I regularly have this problem with Google Books. Sometimes I have to search in regular google or use archive.org instead.

 

Here they are:

 

Dictation Day by Day

Year 2

Year 3

Year 4

Year 5

Year 6

 

Modern Speller - very similar, published later, seems mostly just reformatted to me but I haven't looked at all pages

Book 1 (years 2, 3, and 4)

Book 2 (years 5, 6, 7, 8)

 

Here is the link for Archive.org

http://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Kate+Van+Wagenen%22

[brill123]

Thanx Stripe.....

Aren't the lessons very short for each day?

How do u manage it to cover in a year?

Did you use only this book for spelling?

[stripe]

I only used it for a while, and I often covered two lessons a day.

[2squared]

Thanx Stripe.....

Aren't the lessons very short for each day?

How do u manage it to cover in a year?

Did you use only this book for spelling?

 

:D I am sure that I think differently than most on these boards, but when I look at materials, my goal is maximum effectiveness in the shortest amount of time. For us, a small piece of dictation every day is perfect for my goals.

 

My 2nd grader does one lesson via cold dictation every day. I teach spelling as he writes the passage. He spends less than 10 min/day. That's 30 min/week on spelling for a 2nd grader.

 

My 4th grader does one lesson via studied dictation every day. We review the passage, discuss spelling strategies, punctuation, word choice, grammar, etc before she studies it. Then I dictate it to her. She spends about 15 min/day. That's 1.25 hours of spelling and grammar every week for a 4th grader.

[brill123]

what is cold dictation and studied dictation?

Are you using only dictation day by day for spelling and grammer?no other books for spelling n grammer?????????

[stripe]

what is cold dictation and studied dictation?

Are you using only dictation day by day for spelling and grammer?no other books for spelling n grammer?????????

 

In cold dictation, the child has never heard he passage before. In studied dictation, the child has.

 

Dictation Day by Day has no grammar in it, only dictation, which some use for a variety of purposes, including spelling.

 

It certainly is not my only language arts resource.

[2squared]

In cold dictation, the child has never heard he passage before. In studied dictation, the child has.

 

Dictation Day by Day has no grammar in it, only dictation, which some use for a variety of purposes, including spelling.

 

It certainly is not my only language arts resource.

 

We use Dictation Day by Day for spelling and grammar. I do NOT use any other resources for either through 4th grade. For us, this has been very effective and efficient. The process is more of an organic nature.

[stripe]

We use Dictation Day by Day for spelling and grammar. I do NOT use any other resources for either through 4th grade. For us, this has been very effective and efficient. The process is more of an organic nature.

 

But I am guessing you read books and talk about them! So they're not your (or my) only language arts activity even if they are your/my only spelling program.

 

I haven't seen the grammar, except the modeling of grammatical sentences, but I have only gone into 3, not 4, and I prefer literature for this.

 

I'm very excited to see someone using Mater Amabilis. I find their site very helpful.

Edited April 5, 2012 by stripe