Can you use "normal" schooling materials in an unschooling manner?

[SuperDad]

Preface: Just wanted to hear what the Hive has to say about this. I mean, I know you can do it. But you can do a lot of things. The question is- should you?

 

OK, here is the post: It is my understanding that the consensus is that it is possible to homeschool in a Charlotte Mason manner no matter what materials and curriculum you are using. The CM aspects shine through in the attitude and implementation. So, can you do something like that for unschooling? I realize that "forcing" schoolwork upon a child defies the core essence of unschooling (I think). But, what about the idea that the best learning is the learning that happens in real life (not a classroom/school environment)? Or that children should be encouraged to pursue and learn from their passions? Would you say that it is "possible" (again, I realize that it's technically possible, but I believe you understand what I mean) to do formal, organized schoolwork with an "unschooling attitude"?

 

I am just pondering these thoughts. Over the years, I've moved from being a neo-classical purist to favoring more of a Charlotte Mason approach (though CM was a classical educator, so I haven't abandoned the classical theology completely). I've also move from extremely rigid, formalized studying to a more relaxed, passion-driven, unschooling-inspired approach (but we still definitely do formal schoolwork, including some subjects that my kids don't enjoy but that they need to know). I don't support 100% of the unschooling theology, and don't think I ever will. I just feel sort of like the unschoolers in my neighborhood (and many of the unschoolers on these boards) treat unschooling like an all-or-nothing type of thing. Isn't it possible to embrace an unschooling attitude without throwing everything else out the window?

 

:bigear:

[SuperDad]

Bump :bigear:

[Susie in CA]

Okay, I'll try and give my perspective.

 

I have had unschooling friends who have thought that I am an unschooler. I am not! I do require my children do a certain amount of work daily. I require, of course, the basics but also history, science, german, art, piano etc. So why would I have friends who believe I am an unschooler?

 

The answer is really simple. I believe that it is possible to school and unschool. What I mean is that we look at our lives as active when we school as well as when we don't school. This means that we have always done a great variety of things unschoolers do. We go on fieldtrips, cook together, play games, have endless conversations about cancer or flowers, work in the yard, go on vacations, read aloud together, do projects etc. The time we spend with our children isn't limited to school work; it continues on throughout the entire day, week, month and year.

 

I hope this makes sense. :tongue_smilie:

 

Susie

[KathyBC]

One of my favourite blogs to read when we first started homeschooling was written by a women unschooling her children, using resources such as Singapore math and Suzuki violin.

 

Unschooling can be much more than just "not forcing schoolwork on a child". I found reading David Albert's book a bit intimidating - he put so much effort into unschooling his children.

 

Moderation in all things seems like a good approach to me. :thumbup: I think that's why so many homeschoolers avoid labelling their method, or go for more vague terms such as relaxed or eclectic.

[MidwesternMom]

I found reading David Albert's book a bit intimidating - he put so much effort into unschooling his children.

 

Moderation in all things seems like a good approach to me. :thumbup: I think that's why so many homeschoolers avoid labelling their method, or go for more vague terms such as relaxed or eclectic.

 

I agree. I never read Albert's book because I saw the anguish it caused other parents in our homeschooling group. When they tried unschooling and their kids never seemed to have any particular passion or even special interest, they felt like they must be doing it "wrong."

 

I do feel you can use a flexible, interest-inspired approach to homeschooling no matter what materials you use. I know what works for us is a combination of regular daily work in some areas and flights of fancy in others.

[Ellie]

Would you say that it is "possible" (again, I realize that it's technically possible, but I believe you understand what I mean) to do formal, organized schoolwork with an "unschooling attitude"?

No. :)

[Pen]

Preface: Just wanted to hear what the Hive has to say about this. I mean, I know you can do it. But you can do a lot of things. The question is- should you?

 

...I realize that "forcing" schoolwork upon a child defies the core essence of unschooling (I think). But, what about the idea that the best learning is the learning that happens in real life (not a classroom/school environment)? Or that children should be encouraged to pursue and learn from their passions? Would you say that it is "possible" (again, I realize that it's technically possible, but I believe you understand what I mean) to do formal, organized schoolwork with an "unschooling attitude"?

 

... I don't support 100% of the unschooling theology, and don't think I ever will. I just feel sort of like the unschoolers in my neighborhood (and many of the unschoolers on these boards) treat unschooling like an all-or-nothing type of thing. Isn't it possible to embrace an unschooling attitude without throwing everything else out the window?

 

:bigear:

 

Yes. But difficult.

 

 

In so far as some inspiration for unschooling may have come not only from figures like John Holt, but also from the Summerhill tradition, my understanding is that Summerhill had regular classes with teachers available in all regular subjects. The children were not required to attend them--but the classes and teachers were available. And I presume there were a variety of instructional materials available as well.

 

One problem I see with Unschooling is that children do not necessarily know what may be useful to learn, what may be available, nor even what subjects or fields of study exist unless someone is to some degree introducing that to them.

 

I went to a school myself for a couple of years that did not have required class attendence, much like Summerhill. It did have an extraordinary range of classes to take, however, and I know of no one who simply didn't go to classes at all. There were though, people who felt there needed to be more direction as to what to take, because sometimes students felt unprepared for university level study. So gradually the school got more adept at either adding actual requirements, or at least giving guidance to the students.

 

ETA: We tried a very brief Sudbury at home approach. It did not work in our circumstances--very bad fit. However, what we are doing uses, I think, some of the best of both. The basic skills areas have requirements, choices exist in what to read and what to write on, but both must be done. Math has the least flexibility, but is sometimes "unschoolish" in methods, in that it may happen during measuring for cooking or gardening. Other areas have a lot of flexibility. Today, for example, was a special raptors (birds) trip, reading, and art day... Sunday will be a special presentation on bees... that means science this week will be about birds and bees... Everything else lately seems to be about dogs. Dog books. Dog art. Dog writing. Dog science. Dog history. Choosing a dog, training a dog. ...

Edited March 16, 2012 by Pen

[Laughingmommy]

Isn't it possible to embrace an unschooling attitude without throwing everything else out the window?

 

You got it right there! I consider myself a radical unschooler. I have literally never forced my kids to learn anything, academic or otherwise. I have, on occasion, very loudly proclaimed my views on what I think ("Boy! I hate sugar bugs on MY teeth!" or "I think a great deal of reflection about language, i.e. grammar, greatly facilitates one's ability to use language as an artistic medium."). My kids and I naturally gravitate toward academics, so we use a lot of curricula. I require that they take charge of their own education, so we always work together to make homeschooling decisions. I think people get nervous with the unfamiliar, and pairing classical education with unschooling probably seems unfamiliar to most. My oldest attends school, and I consider that her most time-consuming unschooling project to date. I mean, to some extent, isn't great teaching just great teaching? I might be idealistic, but doesn't this always involve the teacher's openness to observing the student and helping to facilitate the student's journey?

 

Pei

[SuperDad]

No. :001_smile:

 

Ok, so would you consider unschooling to be an all or nothing type of endeavor? I guess that's the main point I'm pondering. The unschoolers in my neck of the woods do treat unschooling like an all or nothing choice, and I don't see why that's so. There are some very beautiful, valuable portions of unschooling that I do agree with. Why must I be an unschooling purist and agree with everything John Holt says (just as an example)? I feel like many unschoolers form a very exclusive club, and are highly critical of those who aren't purist unschoolers, whereas other philosophies are more open to people using "part" of it and not being a purist.

 

I don't mean this as a personal attack on you and I apologize if I'm coming across as such. I'm just thinking out loud. I am very interested in hearing you expound upon your statement.

[Laughingmommy]

I should add, though, that we may not be doing curricula in a "formal" and "organized" way. I don't enforce any sort of time frame, though everything seems to work out fine. I have lesson plans for 6 weeks at a time, and it gives us a good reminder of what we want to do. We pretty much finish everything each cycle, compelled by our group compulsion to accomplish. I need to emphasize, though, that my kids LOVE academics, and I do a lot of soul-searching to connect with that passion for academics within myself.

 

Pei

[Laughingmommy]

I feel like many unschoolers form a very exclusive club, and are highly critical of those who aren't purist unschoolers

 

I find this to be true as well. This is why I always loudly proclaim that I am not only an unschooler, but a RADICAL unschooler. I mean, come on. I find that the unschoolers who support the intellectual development (self-motivated) of their kids often don't have time to socialize, or perhaps it takes too much time to work their way to the center from the margins. Unschooling requires keen observation of the children's needs and passions. Surely we can agree that children naturally desire knowledge of themselves and the world around them. I would even go further to say that it is a need. I think there's a misconception in the unschooling world about curricula. That written curricula is evil. It is not. As with any institution, some gravitate toward laws, and some toward the ideals which express themselves into laws. Those who adhere to rigidity within the unschooling community maybe just haven't properly unschooled themselves yet. They still operate within a box.

 

Pei

[KathyBC]

No. :)

 

This written by a woman who self-identifies as an unschooler, and who used Spalding with her children. :)

[SuperDad]

One problem I see with Unschooling is that children do not necessarily know what may be useful to learn, what may be available, nor even what subjects or fields of study exist unless someone is to some degree introducing that to them.

 

:iagree:

 

You got it right there! I consider myself a radical unschooler. I have literally never forced my kids to learn anything, academic or otherwise. I have, on occasion, very loudly proclaimed my views on what I think ("Boy! I hate sugar bugs on MY teeth!" or "I think a great deal of reflection about language, i.e. grammar, greatly facilitates one's ability to use language as an artistic medium."). My kids and I naturally gravitate toward academics, so we use a lot of curricula. I require that they take charge of their own education, so we always work together to make homeschooling decisions. I think people get nervous with the unfamiliar, and pairing classical education with unschooling probably seems unfamiliar to most. My oldest attends school, and I consider that her most time-consuming unschooling project to date. I mean, to some extent, isn't great teaching just great teaching? I might be idealistic, but doesn't this always involve the teacher's openness to observing the student and helping to facilitate the student's journey?

 

Pei

This is fascinating. I would love to have that mindset. But, you're right, it is rather unfamiliar and scary.

[momtoamiracle]

Okay, I'll try and give my perspective.

 

I have had unschooling friends who have thought that I am an unschooler. I am not! I do require my children do a certain amount of work daily. I require, of course, the basics but also history, science, german, art, piano etc. So why would I have friends who believe I am an unschooler?

 

The answer is really simple. I believe that it is possible to school and unschool. What I mean is that we look at our lives as active when we school as well as when we don't school. This means that we have always done a great variety of things unschoolers do. We go on fieldtrips, cook together, play games, have endless conversations about cancer or flowers, work in the yard, go on vacations, read aloud together, do projects etc. The time we spend with our children isn't limited to school work; it continues on throughout the entire day, week, month and year.

 

I hope this makes sense. :tongue_smilie:

 

Susie

 

 

to me that seems like normal parenting...

[SuperDad]

I find this to be true as well. This is why I always loudly proclaim that I am not only an unschooler, but a RADICAL unschooler. I mean, come on. I find that the unschoolers who support the intellectual development (self-motivated) of their kids often don't have time to socialize, or perhaps it takes too much time to work their way to the center from the margins. Unschooling requires keen observation of the children's needs and passions. Surely we can agree that children naturally desire knowledge of themselves and the world around them. I would even go further to say that it is a need. I think there's a misconception in the unschooling world about curricula. That written curricula is evil. It is not. As with any institution, some gravitate toward laws, and some toward the ideals which express themselves into laws. Those who adhere to rigidity within the unschooling community maybe just haven't properly unschooled themselves yet. They still operate within a box.

 

Pei

This is beautiful. Just sayin'. :iagree::iagree::iagree:

[SuperDad]

to me that seems like normal parenting...

 

That's one of the points of unschooling. I mean, a vast portion of education really is "normal parenting".

[Pen]

I should add, though, that we may not be doing curricula in a "formal" and "organized" way. I don't enforce any sort of time frame, though everything seems to work out fine. I have lesson plans for 6 weeks at a time, and it gives us a good reminder of what we want to do. We pretty much finish everything each cycle, compelled by our group compulsion to accomplish. I need to emphasize, though, that my kids LOVE academics, and I do a lot of soul-searching to connect with that passion for academics within myself.

 

Pei

 

I did too, and that was probably why the open school I went to worked well for me. My son was an avoider because dyslexia-ish problems made anything academic very hard, so for him, it was unworkable. Though now that requirements got him through some of the worst parts, he is starting to much more love to learn. Interestingly I don't have lesson plans out 6 weeks as you do. While we are not Unschoolers, we are do the next thingers as to the 3Rs, and follow the rabbit trailers as to history, art, science, literature etc..

 

Just out of curiosity could you expound more on what you actually would have in your 6 week lesson plans?

[Ellie]

Well, yes. It's a life philosophy as much as an educational philosophy.

 

You could keept the kinds of texts or whatnot around the house, easily accessible to the dc so they could mess with them if they want; you could read aloud to them from good literature that touches on the kinds of things you'd like your dc to learn or experience; you could plan field trips or other outings that you think your dc would enjoy and that might lead them in the direction you'd like them to go in. But you cannot actually schedule or plan any sort of Official School Stuff and say that it's unschooling.

[SuperDad]

But you cannot actually schedule or plan any sort of Official School Stuff and say that it's unschooling.

 

Don't you think that that statement is just a tad elitist? I think I'm more with Pei on this one.

[stripe]

couldn't an unschooled kid pick up a textbook and work through it independently? Wouldn't that be schoolish stuff in an unschooly way? Because the child decided?

[Jayne J]

Just like A cannot be Not-A, I think that classical and unschooling (as I have seen it) cannot co-exist. They start from utterly different places. Unschooling (again, as I understand it) starts with the concept that the child is capable of deciding for him or herself what knowledge to pursue and pursues it best under his own steam/passion--the parent/teacher has no right to impose learning on the person of the child. Classical education starts from the position that the parent/teacher has not only a right but a duty to teach the child truth, beauty and goodness, and the child is not yet wise enough to perceive these things himself. If you believe one you cannot believe the other. (Quintilian vs. Rousseau) However, the discussion seems to be more about methods than philosophy and while I believe that the philosophy dictates the method, at higher levels/grades I think the two become similar looking enough to blur distinctions. Inspiring a child to a love of learning or a passion in a particular area is not the right solely of unschoolers.

Edited March 16, 2012 by urpedonmommy

[deerforest]

For me the distinction isn't with the tools (curricula, field trips, etc.), but rather who is driving the learning.

 

As soon as the parent has an agenda of what the kid(s) should learn, it isn't unschooling to me.

 

I embrace many unschooling "beliefs" and will help my child learn anything she is interested in (our entire K year was spent learning about birth with some handwriting tossed in...since I drove the handwriting agenda, I didn't even think we were unschoolers that year.)

 

We spend very little time on "school" here but I have goals for stuff. I choose curricula to help her learn things I want her to know and I choose it to help her learn things she wants to learn. But curricula are a tiny part of our tools.

 

Because I have expectations for math, reading, and writing, I do not consider myself an unschooler, but many here would be astonished by how little driving I actually do.

[Ellie]

For me the distinction isn't with the tools (curricula, field trips, etc.), but rather who is driving the learning.

 

As soon as the parent has an agenda of what the kid(s) should learn, it isn't unschooling to me.

:iagree:

[Ellie]

couldn't an unschooled kid pick up a textbook and work through it independently? Wouldn't that be schoolish stuff in an unschooly way? Because the child decided?

That's what I said. :)

[stripe]

That's what I said. :)

 

I wasn't trying to argue with you, I was just musing.

 

I wonder, are unschoolers really so strict or is this just the impression one gets online? I get that impression about most groups online -- there are always discussions like "Would you (do x, a compromise in your beliefs) or die a horrible death?" be it educational, dietary, religious, or fashion/diaper related, or one has to assess whether one is a sufficiently gungho follower, so, say, I let my child wear disposable diapers in the hospital or whatever, now I am suspect. It's an examination of one's loyalty to The Cause that seems less prevalent in real life, although I have, depressingly, been witness to it enough in real life and generally annoy people with my responses.

Edited March 16, 2012 by stripe

[Ellie]

This written by a woman who self-identifies as an unschooler, and who used Spalding with her children. :)

I know, right? :D

 

Even I had moments of backsliding. :lol:

 

Of course, with younger dd (older dd already knew how to read when we started hsing), I did Spalding for about 5 weeks when she was 5, 5 or 6 weeks when she was 6, 5 or 6 weeks when she was 7...she wasn't actually reading at her age level until she was 9½. We never finished a math book. I did require her to do Easy Grammar when she was 11. And the year she was 9 (and older dd was 12) we Did School Every Single Day, from September until Thanksgiving, when I put the books away for Thanksgiving. What was I thinking??? We were so burned out!! I didn't take the books out until the following fall. Around March, dds began looking at me out the corners of their eyes, and finally one of them asked if we were going to do School, and I said no. With great relief, they went back to doing their own thing.

 

That summer, older dd began doing Latin with Mary Harrington; the following January older dd enrolled in the community college. She had her 14th bday in class.

 

:)

[Laughingmommy]

Just out of curiosity could you expound more on what you actually would have in your 6 week lesson plans?

 

I started writing about my lesson plans, and I realized that my plans look just like everyone elses, though without as much stuff. For the upcoming weeks with my 4th grader, we have A Wrinkle in Time, Phantom Tollbooth, and Mara, Daughter of the Nile. We're going to make progress on MCT, LOF, SOTW, and BFSU. We're adding formal art (Artistic Pursuits and trying out a lesson of Harmony Fine Arts). We'll do piano (plan 9 sit-down sessions), recorder (12 sessions), and try to get our violin stuff set up. I'm working on Irashai with my oldest (6 lessons), French Fairy Tale thing with my babies (along with Signing Time and 4 rhymes to us to memorize), and looking into a Greek curriculum for my 4th grader. I also have math and logic puzzles assigned (a small handful per week), and two (and a half) writing games from Writer's Jungle. We have a set number of nature journal walks and tennis sessions to keep us on track, as well as things like drumming on pots with babies and sprouting various kinds of seeds and root vegetables in various ways and preparing two small garden boxes. I have "project: compare art supplies" (i.e. how are tempera, acrylic, and watercolor paints different) to support our new interest in formal art. I have "trip to art museum" and "2 trips to library."

 

None of this sounds very exciting, but it's exciting when we do the stuff. The list really does keep me organized, in terms of remembering to get to what the kids want to do. I mean, for literature, we're going to analyze the crap out of a paragraph from A Wrinkle in Time. Life just doesn't get any better than that!

[Laughingmommy]

Classical education starts from the position that the parent/teacher has not only a right but a duty to teach the child truth, beauty and goodness, and the child is not yet wise enough to perceive these things himself.

 

I guess I really am just an unschooler who uses a lot of curricula to help my kids learn.

 

Pei

[Laughingmommy]

Well, yes. It's a life philosophy as much as an educational philosophy.

 

You could keept the kinds of texts or whatnot around the house, easily accessible to the dc so they could mess with them if they want; you could read aloud to them from good literature that touches on the kinds of things you'd like your dc to learn or experience; you could plan field trips or other outings that you think your dc would enjoy and that might lead them in the direction you'd like them to go in. But you cannot actually schedule or plan any sort of Official School Stuff and say that it's unschooling.

 

Wait, but how is planning field trips okay but planning discussions or lessons not okay? I think this goes to what you consider a lesson. My kids can "mess around" with great resources which we have in abundance here, yet I could not engage with them using these resources if I don't plan it. I don't have time. They wanted me to read "Macbeth" with them a few months back, so we scheduled it. I even scheduled a gathering with their friends so we could have a bigger group chanting the "Fair is Foul" thing. Is that a lesson plan? You bet! Is that schooling or unschooling? Planning a field trip that YOU think is good for the kids, doesn't that sound more like schooling than unschooling (where ideally the CHILD asks you to help them locate a resource such as a field trip). I don't pretend to know what's best for my kids. I keep my focus on what my kids tell me they want out of life - verbally and non-verbally. This is where observation of the child is so important. And attached to that is a neutrality of position for the parent so that we're aware of our own agendas (then we have a shot at not mixing our agendas in with our kids').

 

Pei

[Laughingmommy]

It's an examination of one's loyalty to The Cause that seems less prevalent in real life, although I have, depressingly, been witness to it enough in real life and generally annoy people with my responses.

 

It's all so silly, isn't it? I mean, people are just people. For a long time I had no idea that I was championing the "Cause." I oppose pushing academics, extended tandem breastfeed, birth unassisted, eat organic, sew organic diapers, even better, elimination communicate (we were on TV for this!), and Non-Violent Communicate. Several times people told me they were relieved to be able to confess to me their "shameful" behaviors (like using disposable diapers and drinking soda) 'cause I'm so "attachment parent." It's so silly 'cause we're all just people. Does it make any kind of sense for me to show love and compassion to my kids and then have nothing but judgement and disdain for another mother who does the same for her kids in her own way?

 

I spent too much of my life trying to do things right. My current New Year's resolution is "to not try." Sorry for the split infinitive, but it really is "to not-try" as in actively not-trying. It's been wonderful. I am literally not allowed to try to teach my kids. Nor am I allowed to try to clean, or to sleep or to improve myself. It forces a focus on just being present and aware of where my gaze is. Apparently, when I'm this accepting of myself, I naturally gravitate toward all the things I'd been trying to do my whole life (the latest are doing science and art!). It's just not from a place of judgement (like being pulled by one's passions instead being pushed to one's goals). This is the feeling of being so glad to be alive that I hope my kids feel and hold within them their whole lives. I know they won't (at least not all the time), but I wish they would.

 

Pei

Edited March 17, 2012 by Laughingmommy
grammar

[Greenmama2]

You got it right there! I consider myself a radical unschooler. I have literally never forced my kids to learn anything, academic or otherwise. I have, on occasion, very loudly proclaimed my views on what I think ("Boy! I hate sugar bugs on MY teeth!" or "I think a great deal of reflection about language, i.e. grammar, greatly facilitates one's ability to use language as an artistic medium."). My kids and I naturally gravitate toward academics, so we use a lot of curricula. I require that they take charge of their own education, so we always work together to make homeschooling decisions. I think people get nervous with the unfamiliar, and pairing classical education with unschooling probably seems unfamiliar to most.

 

Pei

 

:iagree: We are radical unschoolers too and yet here I am on this board. To answer the question in your title rather than your post...we use Singapore Math, Miquon, BFSU, EPGY, SOTW amongst many others yet my children are never forced to do any of them. So yes, possible and actually rather fun!

[mytwomonkeys]

One of my favourite blogs to read when we first started homeschooling was written by a women unschooling her children, using resources such as Singapore math and Suzuki violin.

 

i rarely follow blogs, but one of my favorites is probably the same person you're referencing. i love her blog, and her children are off the charts brilliant!

 

OP, yes, sure i believe you can use whatever resources you want to help your children accomplish specific goals that they have. i am definitely not an unschooler, but my interpretation of unschooling is it's not what you use but how it is implemented that matters.

[Ellie]

I wasn't trying to argue with you, I was just musing.

I know. :)

 

I wonder, are unschoolers really so strict or is this just the impression one gets online?

If I were looking for a word to describe unschoolers in general, "strict" would not be it.

 

 

I get that impression about most groups online -- there are always discussions like "Would you (do x, a compromise in your beliefs) or die a horrible death?" be it educational, dietary, religious, or fashion/diaper related, or one has to assess whether one is a sufficiently gungho follower, so, say, I let my child wear disposable diapers in the hospital or whatever, now I am suspect. It's an examination of one's loyalty to The Cause that seems less prevalent in real life, although I have, depressingly, been witness to it enough in real life and generally annoy people with my responses.

IKWYM. :)

[Pen]

I started writing about my lesson plans, and I realized that my plans look just like everyone elses, though without as much stuff. For the upcoming weeks with my 4th grader, we have A Wrinkle in Time, Phantom Tollbooth, and Mara, Daughter of the Nile. We're going to make progress on MCT, LOF, SOTW, and BFSU. We're adding formal art (Artistic Pursuits and trying out a lesson of Harmony Fine Arts). We'll do piano (plan 9 sit-down sessions), recorder (12 sessions), and try to get our violin stuff set up. I'm working on Irashai with my oldest (6 lessons), French Fairy Tale thing with my babies (along with Signing Time and 4 rhymes to us to memorize), and looking into a Greek curriculum for my 4th grader. I also have math and logic puzzles assigned (a small handful per week), and two (and a half) writing games from Writer's Jungle. We have a set number of nature journal walks and tennis sessions to keep us on track, as well as things like drumming on pots with babies and sprouting various kinds of seeds and root vegetables in various ways and preparing two small garden boxes. I have "project: compare art supplies" (i.e. how are tempera, acrylic, and watercolor paints different) to support our new interest in formal art. I have "trip to art museum" and "2 trips to library."

 

None of this sounds very exciting, but it's exciting when we do the stuff. The list really does keep me organized, in terms of remembering to get to what the kids want to do. I mean, for literature, we're going to analyze the crap out of a paragraph from A Wrinkle in Time. Life just doesn't get any better than that!

 

 

Well, I'd like to ask you how they learn that say, LOF or MCT, even exist in the world as options in order to be able to ask you to put it on the 6 week plan. Or do they say something like, "Mom, we'd like to study grammar and math for these next 6 weeks, can you help us find programs?" (Wow! If that is so, that is pretty amazing! But my son would not have known that "grammar" even exists as a subject to ask for that.) Or maybe now the 4th grader wants to study Greek and you are doing just that, helping find a program? How did he or she come to want to study Greek?

 

Now, that said, while I was thinking the above, my son came and read your post, and of all the items in it, latched on to the 4 rhymes to memorize, and asked me to ask you for the rhymes, because he is interested in possibly memorizing some poetry (and possibly noticing book titles that he likes made him think that he'd like similar rhymes to someone who likes similar books as he does--but he is not here now as I write, so that is just a guess). Thus, I can see it is quite possible that a child with a parent perusing these threads could be reading over a shoulder and could indeed discover LOF or MCT in a similar fashion. But I am wondering how it actually does work for your children. And do they decide how long on each subject they will do? If one of your children were to decide that he or she wanted to do no basic academics and would prefer to hmmmm, watch TV all day, would that be okay with you? (If you don't even have a TV substitute in some similar idea.)

 

If Ellie is reading this, then I wonder the same for her idea of Unschooling. Would TV (or some equivalent to that) all day every day be okay if that was what the child gravitated to?

 

Anyway, please, for my son, what are the rhymes?

[Rosie_0801]

Well, I'd like to ask you how they learn that say, LOF or MCT, even exist in the world as options in order to be able to ask you to put it on the 6 week plan.

 

I went to a public school and wonder why they didn't let me know there was such thing as grammar beyond verbs, nouns and adjectives. I'd have asked if I'd known there was more to ask about. I don't think a lack of awareness of options is a problem limited to unschoolers!

 

Wouldn't an unschooling mum say "Hey, look at this! Shall I buy it?"

 

Rosie

[Laughingmommy]

Well, I'd like to ask you how they learn that say, LOF or MCT, even exist in the world as options in order to be able to ask you to put it on the 6 week plan. Or do they say something like, "Mom, we'd like to study grammar and math for these next 6 weeks, can you help us find programs?" (Wow! If that is so, that is pretty amazing! But my son would not have known that "grammar" even exists as a subject to ask for that.) Or maybe now the 4th grader wants to study Greek and you are doing just that, helping find a program? How did he or she come to want to study Greek?

 

Now, that said, while I was thinking the above, my son came and read your post, and of all the items in it, latched on to the 4 rhymes to memorize, and asked me to ask you for the rhymes, because he is interested in possibly memorizing some poetry (and possibly noticing book titles that he likes made him think that he'd like similar rhymes to someone who likes similar books as he does--but he is not here now as I write, so that is just a guess). Thus, I can see it is quite possible that a child with a parent perusing these threads could be reading over a shoulder and could indeed discover LOF or MCT in a similar fashion. But I am wondering how it actually does work for your children. And do they decide how long on each subject they will do? If one of your children were to decide that he or she wanted to do no basic academics and would prefer to hmmmm, watch TV all day, would that be okay with you? (If you don't even have a TV substitute in some similar idea.)

 

If Ellie is reading this, then I wonder the same for her idea of Unschooling. Would TV (or some equivalent to that) all day every day be okay if that was what the child gravitated to?

 

Anyway, please, for my son, what are the rhymes?

 

Well, the LOF thing was pretty amazing for us. My first child's best friend started school a few years back, and my daughter began struggling with "normal" experience since then. Her best friend would ask my daughter questions and then evaluate her performance. My daughter began talking about how she was good at this and bad at that. I talked to her about it and asked her if she'd like to learn. She was very eager to be "at grade level." I bought MUS and spent almost no time doing math with her for months 'cause it was new and she was pretty resistant, and so was I. Then one weekend, she'd had enough of not being "at grade level," and she did MUS Gamma in one day. I mean, in one day. A year's worth of work in one 24-hour day. But she was pretty much bored out of her mind with the structure by the end (I kept imploring her to stop and try something else), so I went on a quest to find something else. I got a ton of math stuff to try: Miquon, Saxon, SM, LOF, HOE (I taught the kids algebra casually and they kept asking me to "play algebra"), MM, and who knows what else. When she saw LOF, she needed to go through it right away. She didn't know division at the time, though, so she worked at it. It took a little longer, and the frustration level was higher, but she would swallow her sobs and persevere. Then when she finally felt somewhat confident with long division, a month later (incredible to me still!), she started LOF Fractions.

 

We've done the all day all night TV/video game thing. It always reflected a deep exhaustion and desire to disconnect. I'm not opposed to it, but we all agree that it's not the most fulfilling lifestyle, so we try to occupy ourselves with more meaningful activities. I mean, that's what grown-ups do too, right?

 

My kids actually asked me to add KISS grammar to our plan 'cause we tried a lesson a few weeks back, and they really enjoyed it. I've talked to them about NOT doing it, since it just seems like we're doing too much. Get this: we're compromising by my teaching them sentence diagramming with Analytical Grammar. My 4th grader was bored with FLL but still wanted to learn sentence-diagramming, but in a no-nonsense way (it was my fault, I should've helped her skip lessons more effectively). It totally makes sense, though, that they would be so into sentence-diagramming since they've loved Mad Libs forever. We have fun playing with words.

 

And another time, I was reading the boards and went to investigate AoPS. I loved it so much I actually let out verbal excitement upon viewing the samples. My #1 insisted I purchase. Of course, she's not quite advanced enough for Pre-algebra ('cause she's been doing no academics... going to school and all :glare:). She insists on moving forward, so come Spring Break, I'll help her work through it, and we'll fill in whatever gaps she finds. We also have BA coming in the mail. I didn't even need to go through the samples with the kids. #2 glanced over my shoulder when I was looking and just said, "you're buying that, right?" Um... yes?

 

My 4th grader was struggling with multiplication tables and was getting stuck in math a while back, so I just stopped all math. Luckily, LOF Elementary came out, so I got it and my 4th grader felt excited and confident about math again. I mean, sure, it was Apples, but she sometimes did a book a day, every single problem. And now she's in Ice-Cream. Last week, she wrote a long division problem for herself to solve and asked me to walk her through. And yes, she's the one who has wanted to learn Greek for the past couple of years. But, seriously, Greek? I speak a lot of languages, but not Greek. My #1 and #2 were really into Greek letters for a while because MUS uses Greek letters to designate levels. All this time, I haven't found a program she and I were both willing to do. But now that she's older and more courageous to tackle tedium, she has more options. I can meet her part way.

 

Honestly, though, I think what really helped my kids have such a comfortable attitude toward academics is my own comfort with it. I had to work through a lot of baggage. Kids are smart. They can feel when you're lying to them. I couldn't just pretend that math was fun. I had to have fun doing math, and all the other subjects too. My children's success in each subject area directly correlates to their parents' passion for it.

 

The four rhymes are for the babies.... for circle time. My #2 only memorizes jokes currently, though she's rather partial to the poems of Shel Silverstein. She also loves reading nursery rhymes to the babies (4 and 2). There's great variety there. They're reading "A Child's Garden of Verses" by Stevenson tonight. Has your son read Lemony Snickett? A Series of Unfortunate Events is a big hit with my crowd. And we also love Tintin and Avatar (both books and shows). We've also been watching "Candy, Candy" - it's the most awesome anime in the world ever! It was a childhood favorite of mine, and my #1 found mention of it on anime boards (she's into writing and reading anime fanfiction) and found it for me (after hearing me speak of it forever). We bought the DVD set, put it away (I didn't really have to watch it as an adult), the babies found it, insisted on watching it, so we watched it in Japanese (it was either Mandarin or Japanese, and my #1 is really into Japanese right now). Just today, dd9 was playing Go Animate with dd4, and dd4 had her type up gibberish dialogue that sounded like Japanese. It's like, this is how it happens. So I'll probably think about how to expose the babies to foreign languages and add my solution to the next cycle. They might not tell me verbally that they want to learn foreign languages, but they're making up their own language which is a sign of interest. My older two have lots of training in telling me what they want, and in figuring out what they like. We talk about stuff a lot. And I always present classes and curricula as an opportunity, rather than a requirement. Sometimes they've signed up for classes and have gone only once. I don't mind. For real, as if they would learn that much in a class even if they DID go. I'd rather they use the class as an opportunity to make powerful decisions about their lives. Learning to walk away from what doesn't work for you is worth at least the cost of the class! My kids really seem to be far more mindful and aware than I was at their age (or than I am now). I really believe unschooling can work, and work rather well sometimes.

 

They always have ultimate say in the homeschooling, but they have to negotiate with me. So, I get to say "no" when I'm too tired or just don't feel like doing stuff, but my kids seem to always have more appetite for academic study than I.

 

Woa, this is a seriously long reply. Sorry. I am obviously starved for conversation about what I've been doing lately, homeschooling-wise. I'm sort of in No Man's Land, now that I've gone hog-wild with academics, but still remain an unschooler.

 

Pei

Edited March 17, 2012 by Laughingmommy
grammar mistakes

[Pen]

A quicker reply since I have to get to bed! But thank you for your long one. I think that actually there is a lot similar in what we are actually doing in most areas. I instituted requirements, but as to the hows and whats, I give a lot of say to my child. My post in reply to the Book Whisperer would probably make this more clear.

 

My son will be disappointed to hear that it is not rhymes for the 4th grader.

 

Yes, we did the whole Series of Unfortunate Events, more than once as I recall. That was last year, and so was A Wrinkle in Time and others in that series. A couple of months ago the main interest was the U.S. Civil War. Currently it is dogs, dogs, dogs. Though sometimes hawks and falcons and bees and Shakespeare squeeze in. ...

 

It is an interesting adventure is it not?

[woolybear]

Or that children should be encouraged to pursue and learn from their passions? Would you say that it is "possible" (again, I realize that it's technically possible, but I believe you understand what I mean) to do formal, organized schoolwork with an "unschooling attitude"?

 

Yes. If that is what the child wants.

 

ETA: weird. That first part was a quote from the original post, but doesn't look like it.

Edited March 17, 2012 by woolybear

[quark]

It's all so silly, isn't it? I mean, people are just people. For a long time I had no idea that I was championing the "Cause." I oppose pushing academics, extended tandem breastfeed, birth unassisted, eat organic, sew organic diapers, even better, elimination communicate (we were on TV for this!), and Non-Violent Communicate. Several times people told me they were relieved to be able to confess to me their "shameful" behaviors (like using disposable diapers and drinking soda) 'cause I'm so "attachment parent." It's so silly 'cause we're all just people. Does it make any kind of sense for me to show love and compassion to my kids and then have nothing but judgement and disdain for another mother who does the same for her kids in her own way?

 

I spent too much of my life trying to do things right. My current New Year's resolution is "to not try." Sorry for the split infinitive, but it really is "to not-try" as in actively not-trying. It's been wonderful. I am literally not allowed to try to teach my kids. Nor am I allowed to try to clean, or to sleep or to improve myself. It forces a focus on just being present and aware of where my gaze is. Apparently, when I'm this accepting of myself, I naturally gravitate toward all the things I'd been trying to do my whole life (the latest are doing science and art!). It's just not from a place of judgement (like being pulled by one's passions instead being pushed to one's goals). This is the feeling of being so glad to be alive that I hope my kids feel and hold within them their whole lives. I know they won't (at least not all the time), but I wish they would.

 

Pei

 

I bigtime loved this post, Pei. Thank you for writing it!

[Halcyon]

 

 

If I were looking for a word to describe unschoolers in general, "strict" would not be it.

 

 

 

 

I disagree, strongly.

[Pen]

I think one thing this discussion has said to me is that part of this depends a lot on the parents and what the parents want to do--or how. But a lot also depends upon the particular child(ren). Some children may fit better with a more or less structured program. I think mine being in the 2E direction, his areas of difficulty need very much structure and pushing, else avoidance would be his mode, but in the areas of giftedness, he can more run with his interests in a style closer to unschooling.

[woolybear]

I disagree, strongly.

I think it depends......I've met loose unschoolers and unschoolers who believe there is one way to do unschooling and if you're not doing x,y, and z then you are not unschooling. That is strict in my book. Actually, maybe the word rigid is more apt. I went to a unschooling talk. Very low key, in a friend's house. There was about 10 people there. The key speaker was a rather well known radical unschooler. Whew. I left there so uptight. She was absolute about what was okay and what was not. Strict? I don't know. Rigid? Definitely.

[Pen]

I went to a public school and wonder why they didn't let me know there was such thing as grammar beyond verbs, nouns and adjectives. I'd have asked if I'd known there was more to ask about. I don't think a lack of awareness of options is a problem limited to unschoolers!

 

Wouldn't an unschooling mum say "Hey, look at this! Shall I buy it?"

 

Rosie

 

Well, I agree that lack of awareness of options is also a problem for others. And I am sure that for us, this forum is a big help for all the parents to learn of more options, which would have been much harder (and fewer too) just a few years ago.

 

But, I think a really die-hard unschooling mom would not say, "Hey, look at this! Shall I buy it?" but maybe I don't understand that part of unschooling... I think that is part of what this thread is trying to figure out. And also, does the unschooling parent say, "Hey, I heard some kids are learning Greek and Latin, would you like to do that too?" -- thereby having an unschooling yet also classics education? I don't know. I thought not.

[woolybear]

couldn't an unschooled kid pick up a textbook and work through it independently? Wouldn't that be schoolish stuff in an unschooly way? Because the child decided?

Yes and taking that a step further, one can have a child who wants schoolish stuff scheduled and planned for him. So, it can look exactly like a parent led schoolish curriculum, even be parent led if it is the child's choice.

[Pen]

...

... It forces a focus on just being present and aware of where my gaze is. Apparently, when I'm this accepting of myself, I naturally gravitate toward all the things I'd been trying to do my whole life (the latest are doing science and art!). It's just not from a place of judgement (like being pulled by one's passions instead being pushed to one's goals). This is the feeling of being so glad to be alive that I hope my kids feel and hold within them their whole lives. I know they won't (at least not all the time), but I wish they would.

 

Pei

 

Thank you for sharing that!

 

Lots of art and science and trying to get the garden going here too!

[SuperDad]

I disagree, strongly.

:iagree: The unschooling homeschoolers in my neck of the woods are almost as stubborn as the TJEd moms.

[stripe]

Yes and taking that a step further, one can have a child who wants schoolish stuff scheduled and planned for him. So, it can look exactly like a parent led schoolish curriculum, even be parent led if it is the child's choice.

 

And taking it a step further, isn't there an expectation that such kids will look /behave a certain way? Or for example all those threads about "allowing" a child to choose his/her own interests instead of "forcing" gender stereotypes, while all the while there are little girls who want to play with a doll and wear dresses, but somehow only the denim overalls and the messily handknit hat/legwarmers/socks/diaper cover (because there's no pressure when mom spent two momths making that wooly garment). I think the problem can be an expectation of conformity to one nonconformist ideal. I laughed once when driving past a pro-pot rally where everyone had long hair and wore tie dye. Couldn't just one guy have a crew cut and wear a suit??

[Trilliums]

My kids were curriculum phobic for much of their young lives; inquisitive

, smart and compliant little ones who balked at math worksheets. They definitely have learning issues (dyslexic, nonverbal ld). I struggled over the best way to provide for their education and ended up with our own unschooling plan. I did not fit the pattern of most of the unschoolers I had met up until then. Basically, I decided not to force, bribe or coerce my kids into doing school work. They continued to learn and think and process information at an alarming rate.

 

Here we homeschool through a home school assistance program which has a lending library. When my older son was starting 8th grade, he checked out Saxon Alg 1/2 from the assistance program library. In about 4 months he finished it and asked for Saxon algebra. He also checked out a high school chemistry text book and read most of it. In 9th grade he decided to attend the public school part time. So are we still unschoolers? My older son has made these choices on his own, although he does regularly ask me and DH for our opinions and advice. He definitely uses curriculum at home and in public school classes.

 

My younger son is not quite as self directed as my older son. Still though, younger son has said he would like to get ready for high school work (and he does have some gaps). He has asked me to help him stay on track with algebra and writing with skill (I did suggest these programs to him, but, if he doesn't do them I do not punish him, although that just is not a problem here).

 

Both kids would like to end up with something resembling a typical high school transcript. I am glad, and even relived, they have opted to take this route. But I do believe they cOuld have continued without curriculum and gone onto community college or our state university with few problems.

 

 

Oh, and my younger son did ask to learn Latin when he was younger and had a wonderful year long class. Also, when we talked about different ways to achieve a high school education, we discussed TWTM and the kids loved the idea of approaching high school that way, hence my presence on these boards.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Trilliums
Idevice problems!

[Laughingmommy]

I love reading all your stories!

 

I just recently embraced my 2E-ness with much emotion. My kids don't show much of their "disabilities" 'cause of the whole unschooling thing. For so long I was trying to do things in a linear, sensible way, and now that I don't care, my mind is active again. My latest idea is to analyze literature with the kids without having read it, relying on the idea that there are common themes, maybe universal themes, that one can engage with within the text merely with a short summary and an excerpt. The kids have already read the books (they seem to always have already read all the books in the universe). I'm not sure why their LDs and ADHD aren't stopping them from reading!

 

When my big girls were young, I was really crazy. I was so extreme, I wouldn't even tell them what things were. For instance, my daughter might point to a rake and ask, "What's that?" and I would reply, "What do YOU think that might be?" Or "what might that be for?" Literally, like, not as a Socratic method or anything, but just an open-ended interpret-the-world-on-your-own-terms-with-as-little-interference-as-possible thing. That was the opposite of what my intellectually-curious kids needed! I was trying to keep the world and its evil dictates away from them, but they were explicitly inviting the world into their lives. I looked like an unschooler then, but I was really sort of the opposite. In keeping structure and formality out, I was asserting my own agenda to keep my kids "pure." And I was strict about it.

 

Pei

[Laughingmommy]

I laughed once when driving past a pro-pot rally where everyone had long hair and wore tie dye. Couldn't just one guy have a crew cut and wear a suit??

 

That's TOO funny!!! Pro-pot rally? Are you sure it wasn't an unschooling park day?

 

Pei