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This is coming from someone who knows next to nothing about Lent, but is respectfully curious. The churches I have attended did not observe Lent.

 

I recently read a statement (for the life of me I can't remember where) that a true sacrifice has a goal. The goal is something (we hope) better than what was given up. So, we give up the lesser to gain the greater, like giving up sugar to become healthier.

 

My question is, when something is given up at Lent, what is the better thing that is hoped for? What is the goal? Is there a goal? What does your church teach along these lines? What do you personally believe?

 

That's more than one question isn't it. :D

 

Thanks.

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My question is, when something is given up at Lent, what is the better thing that is hoped for? What is the goal? Is there a goal? What does your church teach along these lines? What do you personally believe?

 

We give up things to get closer to God. I try to choose something that's getting in the way of my relationship (like replacing facebook hours with reading good stuff), or something that I may have been putting above Him (like turning to food for comfort instead of turning to prayer).

 

Our priest says every year that we shouldn't give up something that we're just going to pick up again after. It's also fine to start a good habit instead of giving something up, but again we have to not drop it once we get to Easter.

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I also think the sacrifice is supposed to help bring to mind the sacrifice of Christ. So, even though the "no meat" on Fridays during Lent for me as a Catholic isn't that big of a personal sacrifice - it does make me think about Jesus and WHY I am avoiding meat on that day, it makes me more conscious of the preparation of the Lenten season.

 

I do choose a personal sacrifice as well, but I don't think it all has to be about a long-term end goal, other than to get your heart and mind in a place of appreciation of Christ's sacrifice and leading a life in pursuit of being worthy of it.

 

Hope that makes sense!

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This is coming from someone who knows next to nothing about Lent, but is respectfully curious. The churches I have attended did not observe Lent.

 

I recently read a statement (for the life of me I can't remember where) that a true sacrifice has a goal. The goal is something (we hope) better than what was given up. So, we give up the lesser to gain the greater, like giving up sugar to become healthier.

 

My question is, when something is given up at Lent, what is the better thing that is hoped for? What is the goal? Is there a goal? What does your church teach along these lines? What do you personally believe?

 

That's more than one question isn't it. :D

 

Thanks.

 

I can only speak from my own tradition in the Eastern Orthodox church. We don't really look at it so much as giving up but rather as training. By fasting we are training our bodies that "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God." We are "dying to self", as it were. We also see fasting as a way to take us back to our original relationship. In the garden, sin entered the world because Adam basically disregarded the fast (do not eat from the tree...), so we fast to bring ourselves back into relationship with God. That is really the goal. Communion with God is the goal of our whole Christian life. Fasting is just one of the the tools the Orthodox church uses to gain this goal. Others, of course, would be prayer, acts of mercy, loving our neighbor, turning the other cheek, dying to self. Because of course, fasting isn't just about food...and it isn't the goal of Lent - it is the means to an end.

 

Andi, it is amazing. When I begin to fast... some of that ugliness and selfishness come right out. Fasting is like a little spotlight shining on all those areas God wants me to work on. It sounds crazy, I know. How can what we don't eat really affect us that way. But it does. Of course, we don't pick and choose what to fast and we all (Orthodox Christians) work through this together. We are a community. If I can't fast the way it is prescribed then I talk with my priest. He is my spiritual counsel. This is key in the discipline of fasting within the Orthodox tradition. No man is an island. We're all working through our salvation together. And, that makes an amazing difference. I've tried fasting when I wasn't Orthodox... and it was totally different.

 

Anyway, probably more than you asked for. But, that is my understanding of Fasting from an Orthodox perspective.

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This is coming from someone who knows next to nothing about Lent, but is respectfully curious. The churches I have attended did not observe Lent.

 

I recently read a statement (for the life of me I can't remember where) that a true sacrifice has a goal. The goal is something (we hope) better than what was given up. So, we give up the lesser to gain the greater, like giving up sugar to become healthier.

 

My question is, when something is given up at Lent, what is the better thing that is hoped for? What is the goal? Is there a goal? What does your church teach along these lines? What do you personally believe?

 

That's more than one question isn't it. :D

 

Thanks.

 

I'll be following this thread, I'm curious too. The girls and I couldn't figure out what the black marks were on everyones foreheads the other day. I finally stopped a woman in the parking lot to ask. She told us about Lent and that she was giving up shoes... So now I'm wondering what it's all about.

:lurk5:

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When I begin to fast... some of that ugliness and selfishness come right out. Fasting is like a little spotlight shining on all those areas God wants me to work on. It sounds crazy, I know. How can what we don't eat really affect us that way. But it does.

 

To the OP: I'm Eastern Orthodox as well, and really appreciate Debbie's post. She worded it so well. We don't fast to gain, but to die (as it were).

 

As for what I quoted, this is why my godmother wished me "good strength" as we approach the beginning of Lent on Monday! I will pray for you, Debbie, if you will include me in your prayers, my friend. May you have good strength this Lent.

Edited by milovaný
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I'll be following this thread, I'm curious too. The girls and I couldn't figure out what the black marks were on everyones foreheads the other day. I finally stopped a woman in the parking lot to ask. She told us about Lent and that she was giving up shoes... So now I'm wondering what it's all about.

:lurk5:

 

In the Eastern Church we do not do Ash Wednesday... although I think its a lovely tradition. We begin our Lenten season with forgiveness. Lent doesn't begin until Monday for us so on Sunday, directly after service, we begin what is called Forgiveness Vespers. It is when the music changes to the more mournful Lenten setting, the vestments are changed to the Lenten color, and we ask God to help us through the Lenten Season. Then we file up, beginning with the priest, and we stand before each person in our parish, bow before them, take their hand, and ask them to forgive us if we've ever wronged them this year. They do the same and then we kiss each other on the cheeks (3x in the Russian tradition). Because we cannot begin the Lenten season without love. "Love is the doorway to Lent" as one of my favorite authors said.

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I thought this article did a great job at looking at the practice of "giving things up" for Lent. On one hand, we do it to detach ourselves from the world so that we may better attach ourselves to God. On the other hand, by forgoing pleasures of the world, we are able to better appreciate their true goodness come Easter.

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So, we give up the lesser to gain the greater, like giving up sugar to become healthier.

 

Doug Wilson wrote a great post on Lenten sacrifices and threw out the idea that for some people, healthy eating has become an idol--so those might need to stop eating organic and healthy during Lent.

 

I only like every other thing he writes, but this post was excellent.

 

http://www.dougwils.com/Church-Year/on-being-a-lentendud.html

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Doug Wilson wrote a great post on Lenten sacrifices and threw out the idea that for some people, healthy eating has become an idol--so those might need to stop eating organic and healthy during Lent.

 

I only like every other thing he writes, but this post was excellent.

 

http://www.dougwils.com/Church-Year/on-being-a-lentendud.html

 

While he had some valid points, I would probably not advise taking advice on Lent from someone who doesn't practice it because he doesn't believe in it. ;)

 

ETA - I hope that came across as I meant it; just with a little humor as I typed. Not trying to state how someone should or shouldn't participate in Lent. I do find strength, as Princess Mommy said above, in the fact that in our church we all give up the same thing. I've heard that if someone is already vegan (and Orthodox), that their diet does not change during Lent. But no worries, there are others self-dying processes they will go through as they progress through Lent in the Church !

Edited by milovaný
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While he had some valid points, I would probably not advise taking advice on Lent from someone who doesn't practice it because he doesn't believe in it. ;)

 

ETA - I hope that came across as I meant it; just with a little humor as I typed. Not trying to state how someone should or shouldn't participate in Lent. I do find strength, as Princess Mommy said above, in the fact that in our church we all give up the same thing. I've heard that if someone is already vegan (and Orthodox), that their diet does not change during Lent. But no worries, there are others self-dying processes they will go through as they progress through Lent in the Church !

 

I have a vegan Orthodox friend - his priest told him he would have to find other ways of fasting - be it food or something else.

 

More generally - I would tend to be wary of the common practice of giving up things that are supposed to be unhealthy. Not totally - but I think it is important to separate their unhealthiness from the reasons we fast during Lent. because it is easy to make diet and health into a kind of object of worship, and I think it is actually somewhat common in our culture.

 

I see fasting as being primarily about making space in our lives - time, but also space from sensations and such. It is really hard to take on the self-examination of Lent if our feelings and thoughts and bodies are so stimulated and moving so fast that we cannot get a handle on them.

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when something is given up at Lent, what is the better thing that is hoped for?

Union with Christ, command over the body and it's desires and cravings (the spirit is in charge, not the body), greater understanding of the sufferings of others, increased spiritual sensitivity because we aren't constantly driven by impulses, etc..

 

Ultimately, love loves to suffer and Lent is a reminder of that for those of us who are sometimes too busy to reflect on it otherwise. Doesn't the mother love to rub the back of her child who is suffering with serious illness despite her own great fatigue, or the heroic bystanders who pull people out of a burning vehicle compelled by a love of the value of life. It is that kind of love that drives us to sacrifice or prompts us to do it if we are reluctant.

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Jesus died for us on Good Friday. Lent is a time to prepare for His sacrifice by giving up something for God. This is both an act of penance and an act of combining our suffering with Christ's suffering on the cross. It is also a time for us to pull back a little from the worldly pleasures and spend more time in prayer and growing closer to God. Lent isn't supposed to be a sad time. It is supposed to be a reflective time to renew our faith and prepare ourselves for Christ's sacrifice and his ressurection.

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I always say I'm giving up smoking for Lent (I don't smoke). The idea is preparing whether through giving something up (sacrifice) or actively doing something -prayers, stations of the cross, charitable works.

 

My mom always said that when she did something difficult for Lent, then it made Easter better. She once went to daily mass before going to work every weekday in Lent when she was single (that 7am Mass).

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In the Eastern Church we do not do Ash Wednesday... although I think its a lovely tradition. We begin our Lenten season with forgiveness. Lent doesn't begin until Monday for us so on Sunday, directly after service, we begin what is called Forgiveness Vespers. It is when the music changes to the more mournful Lenten setting, the vestments are changed to the Lenten color, and we ask God to help us through the Lenten Season. Then we file up, beginning with the priest, and we stand before each person in our parish, bow before them, take their hand, and ask them to forgive us if we've ever wronged them this year. They do the same and then we kiss each other on the cheeks (3x in the Russian tradition). Because we cannot begin the Lenten season without love. "Love is the doorway to Lent" as one of my favorite authors said.

 

This traditon does sound lovely.

 

I'm afraid this thread has really been exposing how ignorant I am on the subject. When I originally posted giving up sugar as an example of a sacrifice, I wasn't even connecting it to Lent. I appreciate everyone's responses. In the past, whenever I heard people talk about Lent, they seemed to be trying to give up what would cause them the most discomfort to be without, or even something that wouldn't cause too much hardship. It seemed almost like a kind of religious game. (This is just how it appeared to me, I totally understand that it is not meant to be that.)

 

I did not know about the Orthodox traditions at all. They seem to be more joyful than what I had seen before. I had wondered about people announcing their particular fast, like shoes or the internet. Doesn't the Bible say we should keep our fasting between ourselves and God so as not to parade our spirituality? Fasting as a community seems to eliminate the problem of spiritual pride.

 

Thank you for all the thoughtful replies.

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Lent is a penitential season.

It is solemn, though joyful.

We remember that it is our sinfulness that created the need for Christ's suffering on our behalf. And we also remember that Christ loves us so much that He took this on, willingly.

 

We prepare for the annual celebration of Holy Week--the focus and most important time of the entire history of the world.

 

Christ is our Prophet, Priest, and King. He is the Paschal Lamb.

 

During Lent we focus on His love and actions on our behalf, on our unworthiness and sinfulness, on penitence, and on His attributes and glory. "Giving up something for Lent" is part of this, but a fairly small part, and not something that everyone does.

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When I first read the op, I thought -- here comes a slew of replies with no one mentioning Eastern Orthodoxy. I'm so glad I was wrong.

 

I wanted to add that there can be a wonderful sense of community during Lent in the EO church. Everyone has given up (well, some to a greater extent, some to a lesser extent) the same things -- going back to the time of Adam, before the Noahide commandment to eat meat. In my experience in EO, people share recipes and often have a meal together, especially during the first week of Lent, when people try to observe rules not just about food, but about how it is prepared too. By contrast, in western churches, I often find people saying -- I am giving up coffee, I am giving up smoking, etc.

 

Another part of Lent is prayer/church. In EO, the services are different during Lent. There are special melodies heard only during Lent -- they draw you into the church on weekdays as well as Saturday/Sunday, because they are special. The western church does have Lenten hymns and some different liturgical practices, especially during Holy Week, but not quite as many as EO.

 

Oh, and one lovely result of fasting is eating again at Easter. That first hard boiled egg is the most delicious thing in the world! The cheese, the butter, the cream, and so on. If you have fasted, you eat these foods as if for the first time. Forty days (calculated according to slightly different formulas in east & west) of Lent are followed by forty days of Easter (Easter to Ascension).

 

Full disclosure -- almost became EO many, years ago, may still do so....

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This traditon does sound lovely.

 

I'm afraid this thread has really been exposing how ignorant I am on the subject. When I originally posted giving up sugar as an example of a sacrifice, I wasn't even connecting it to Lent. I appreciate everyone's responses. In the past, whenever I heard people talk about Lent, they seemed to be trying to give up what would cause them the most discomfort to be without, or even something that wouldn't cause too much hardship. It seemed almost like a kind of religious game. (This is just how it appeared to me, I totally understand that it is not meant to be that.)

 

I did not know about the Orthodox traditions at all. They seem to be more joyful than what I had seen before. I had wondered about people announcing their particular fast, like shoes or the internet. Doesn't the Bible say we should keep our fasting between ourselves and God so as not to parade our spirituality? Fasting as a community seems to eliminate the problem of spiritual pride.

 

Thank you for all the thoughtful replies.

 

I knew just about nothing about Lent too until I started attending a church that participated in it. I didn't grow up with any tradition of Advent or Lent, so I've been learning a lot myself over the years. We gotta start somewhere.

 

Lent is a joyful time yes, but it is also a struggle. Just like a mom anticipating a birth. She has to go through the struggle of labor, but always knowing that there is beautiful life at the end of all the sweat and tears. We Orthodox always have our eye on the Feast of Feasts: Pascha (Easter in the West). It is a glorious and wonderful celebration of Christ's resurrection. All things in Orthodox liturgical worship point towards His resurrection and to Pascha.

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Doug Wilson wrote a great post on Lenten sacrifices and threw out the idea that for some people, healthy eating has become an idol--so those might need to stop eating organic and healthy during Lent.

 

I only like every other thing he writes, but this post was excellent.

 

http://www.dougwils.com/Church-Year/on-being-a-lentendud.html

:lol: I knew someone that made her diabetes her God, but I certainly would not recommend that she do without her insulin or her testing kit. (I kid not...this was not a regular management of diabetes. I lived next door to this woman for years and lived with her for a few months after moving out of my mother's house...I would not have believed it if I hadn't seen it) Eating healthy may be an "idol" for some, but more likely it's a lifestyle/habit. And regardless of their issue with it, they can work on their pride without eating lesser things. Sorry, but in this case "consider the source" applies :glare:

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I actually totally disagree with the idea that a sacrifice should have a goal. Or, as someone else stated, the only goal should be to reflect on all the sacrifices Christ made for us.

 

If you give up sugar because you need to lose 10 lbs anyway and think that will help, are you then doing it for God or yourself? It seems to me that it makes it less of a pure sacrifice, kwim?

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Doug Wilson wrote a great post on Lenten sacrifices and threw out the idea that for some people, healthy eating has become an idol--so those might need to stop eating organic and healthy during Lent.

 

I only like every other thing he writes, but this post was excellent.

 

http://www.dougwils.com/Church-Year/on-being-a-lentendud.html

The irony of this is hilarious!!!! :lol:

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I actually totally disagree with the idea that a sacrifice should have a goal. Or, as someone else stated, the only goal should be to reflect on all the sacrifices Christ made for us.

 

If you give up sugar because you need to lose 10 lbs anyway and think that will help, are you then doing it for God or yourself? It seems to me that it makes it less of a pure sacrifice, kwim?

 

I agree love of God should be the motivation behind sacrifice, but I don't see how taking into account your particular circumstances and shaping sacrifices to those circumstances necessarily means it is less pure. I gave up sugar (and gluten) for Lent as part of a new approach to diet that I need to embrace, but a which I am finding incredibly difficult. I feel this change will help me tremendously in better living out my vocation, but I can't seem to do it on my own. Making these changes part of my Lenten penances seems to give me the grace to actual do it! In a way these sacrifices are very much "for me", but my motivation is to change so I can better serve and love God. If my motivation was sinful, like vanity, that would be different, but using penance to build self-disciple in areas of your life that need it doesn't seem less pure.

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Doug Wilson wrote a great post on Lenten sacrifices and threw out the idea that for some people, healthy eating has become an idol--so those might need to stop eating organic and healthy during Lent.

 

I totally agree. Fat and sugar are an important part of any balanced diet.

 

This message has been brought to you by American Sugar Lovers and Paczki Lovers United More Peacefully.

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I think he makes a greater point that is valid--whether or not he "practices" Lent. Unless a church community is trying to hear from God on a specific matter together or as an act of corporate repentance, submission, etc., making any show of fasting is not what God desires from us. He asks us to do it in secret and that is the main problem I have with how churches "practice" Lent. Look at the ashes on my forehead, listen to me jokingly complain about how I ate a burger on Friday, let me tell you what *I* am giving up...what are YOU giving up? That sort of thing. Matthew 6:16-18 says that those who are obvious about their fasting get their reward immediately--because what they want very well may be man's recognition (or even a prideful "sense of community or acceptance") for their fasting--rather than whatever it is God wants to speak to that individual person.

 

So maybe what some should give up for Lent is talking about what they're giving up for Lent. That's kind of what I took away from the article.

Edited by 6packofun
..m
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In the Eastern Church we do not do Ash Wednesday... although I think its a lovely tradition. We begin our Lenten season with forgiveness. Lent doesn't begin until Monday for us so on Sunday, directly after service, we begin what is called Forgiveness Vespers. It is when the music changes to the more mournful Lenten setting, the vestments are changed to the Lenten color, and we ask God to help us through the Lenten Season. Then we file up, beginning with the priest, and we stand before each person in our parish, bow before them, take their hand, and ask them to forgive us if we've ever wronged them this year. They do the same and then we kiss each other on the cheeks (3x in the Russian tradition). Because we cannot begin the Lenten season without love. "Love is the doorway to Lent" as one of my favorite authors said.

 

I read this with my husband and kids, we think this sounds like a beautiful tradition.

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making any show of fasting is not what God desires from us. He asks us to do it in secret and that is the main problem I have with how churches "practice" Lent. Look at the ashes on my forehead,

The ashes are not for "making a show". It is merely a religious practice. Sometimes it's seen (if people happen to be out and about) and sometimes it's not seen (if they go back home). It's much like when we (EO) are anointed with oil; we are not to go out of our way to wash it off immediately. It has nothing to do with those who see us or don't see us. If nothing else, it's a bit humbling to be seen with such. I know of no one that takes pride in it. If they do, then that is between them and God. To automatically judge that the point is to make a show of something is to show that you may not understand that actual practice.

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I can only speak from my own tradition in the Eastern Orthodox church. We don't really look at it so much as giving up but rather as training. By fasting we are training our bodies that "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God." We are "dying to self", as it were. We also see fasting as a way to take us back to our original relationship. In the garden, sin entered the world because Adam basically disregarded the fast (do not eat from the tree...), so we fast to bring ourselves back into relationship with God. That is really the goal. Communion with God is the goal of our whole Christian life. Fasting is just one of the the tools the Orthodox church uses to gain this goal. Others, of course, would be prayer, acts of mercy, loving our neighbor, turning the other cheek, dying to self. Because of course, fasting isn't just about food...and it isn't the goal of Lent - it is the means to an end.

 

Andi, it is amazing. When I begin to fast... some of that ugliness and selfishness come right out. Fasting is like a little spotlight shining on all those areas God wants me to work on. It sounds crazy, I know. How can what we don't eat really affect us that way. But it does. Of course, we don't pick and choose what to fast and we all (Orthodox Christians) work through this together. We are a community. If I can't fast the way it is prescribed then I talk with my priest. He is my spiritual counsel. This is key in the discipline of fasting within the Orthodox tradition. No man is an island. We're all working through our salvation together. And, that makes an amazing difference. I've tried fasting when I wasn't Orthodox... and it was totally different.

 

Anyway, probably more than you asked for. But, that is my understanding of Fasting from an Orthodox perspective.

 

As an Othodox Christian, I wish to echo PrincessMommy. But even before I was Orthodox, I observed Lent with a fast of my choosing. The obvious candidates? Wine and coffee. The BETTER candidate? The WTM boards, for many years. The reason this was the better candidate was spoken by my Presbyterian pastor: "We fast from those things that we use to anesthetize ourselves from the pain of our sin.". When I was in disharmony with my family, I would run for solace to the Boards, for anesthesia from the pain. In fasting from it, I used my desire for anesthesia as a reminder to pray, to run to God. I heard the call for forgiveness and repentance.

 

Lenten fasting without prayer and charity is nothing more than a diet, however. Fasting is not punishment--it is like spring cleaning for the soul. As an Orthodox, I no longer choose my own fast, nor do I "spring clean" alone...and this is a joy. But fasting is a rich and deep practice when done in humility.

 

Princess Mommy and Patty Joanna, It seems like Lent is also a type of communion with the Church as a whole, though I haven't read this. Would that be true? Being that the whole EO Church is participating in the same things, with some variation due to economia, but basically the same things are abstained from and the same things are added, would this be a type of communion with the whole Body of Christ?

 

I also read recently that historically Lent was a time of prayer & preparation for the catechumenate. I will become a catechumen tomorrow, so this is a special meaning for me, the added prayers for me and my family as we prepare to enter the Church.

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The ashes are not for "making a show". It is merely a religious practice. Sometimes it's seen (if people happen to be out and about) and sometimes it's not seen (if they go back home). It's much like when we (EO) are anointed with oil; we are not to go out of our way to wash it off immediately. It has nothing to do with those who see us or don't see us. If nothing else, it's a bit humbling to be seen with such. I know of no one that takes pride in it. If they do, then that is between them and God. To automatically judge that the point is to make a show of something is to show that you may not understand that actual practice.

 

:iagree: There is a benefit to understand the 2000 year practice of Lent.

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I read this with my husband and kids, we think this sounds like a beautiful tradition.

 

Thank you very much. Just writing it out made me so excited for tomorrow. I've been in my church long enough to see little things annoy people, probably hand out a few myself, seen friendships frayed, and basically see how Satan tries to sever relationships. Tomorrow is a fresh start for all of us... I can't wait! There will be tears... but lots of joy too.

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Princess Mommy and Patty Joanna, It seems like Lent is also a type of communion with the Church as a whole, though I haven't read this. Would that be true? Being that the whole EO Church is participating in the same things, with some variation due to economia, but basically the same things are abstained from and the same things are added, would this be a type of communion with the whole Body of Christ?

 

I also read recently that historically Lent was a time of prayer & preparation for the catechumenate. I will become a catechumen tomorrow, so this is a special meaning for me, the added prayers for me and my family as we prepare to enter the Church.

 

Yes, as with just about everything in the Church - we journey together.

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Princess Mommy and Patty Joanna, It seems like Lent is also a type of communion with the Church as a whole, though I haven't read this. Would that be true? Being that the whole EO Church is participating in the same things, with some variation due to economia, but basically the same things are abstained from and the same things are added, would this be a type of communion with the whole Body of Christ?

 

this is exactly right. Since the Church itself is the body of Christ, we are united in everything that we do.

 

I also read recently that historically Lent was a time of prayer & preparation for the catechumenate. I will become a catechumen tomorrow, so this is a special meaning for me, the added prayers for me and my family as we prepare to enter the Church.

 

Glory to God! You'll be in my prayers. :)

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