War of 1812

[kathymuggle]

DD is creating a poster for a contest and the theme is the War of 1812. I am Canadian. I have always heard the Canadians won the War of 1812. Imagine my surprise when I went online to hunt for images from kids sites and learned that Americans think the United States won the war. History sure is an interesting thing. :tongue_smilie:

[usetoschool]

I was under the impression that the War of 1812 was pretty much a wash for everyone but Native Americans. Lots of soldiers killed, money spent, boundaries moved and then a treaty signed that moved it all back where it was to begin with, basically. As an American I never really thought of our side as winning. We did get a national anthem out of it...if you call that winning. If you have every tried to sing the Star Spangled Banner (all verses) I am not sure you would agree*

 

 

 

 

*though I do love it and it makes me tear up

[Guest submarines]

DD is creating a poster for a contest and the theme is the War of 1812. I am Canadian. I have always heard the Canadians won the War of 1812. Imagine my surprise when I went online to hunt for images from kids sites and learned that Americans think the United States won the war. History sure is an interesting thing. :tongue_smilie:

 

And I've always thought it was the Russians ;).

[kathymuggle]

And I've always thought it was the Russians ;).

 

 

This is going right over my head. Must have coffee. Explain please. :bigear:

[Guest submarines]

This is going right over my head. Must have coffee. Explain please. :bigear:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_invasion_of_Russia :D

[kathymuggle]

got it - thanks :001_smile:

[Guest submarines]

got it - thanks :001_smile:

 

It all depends on where one grows up. :tongue_smilie:

[MtnTeaching]

My Dd studied that time period this year and her history stated that it was pretty much a wash. Neither side really got a lot out of it other than the US seemed to get a bit of respect. It was portrayed as a turning point in the British attitude toward us and that we could actually be a force that would not be pushed around.

 

I am sure the British and Canada will have a bit of a different version.

[DianeW88]

Americans feel victorious in this war because we remained an independent nation.

[HLDoll]

Here's a little War of 1812 humor that I came across earlier this year when we were studying it. I think a lot of people are muddled about why we fought and who won. Enjoy.

 

 

[creekland]

I grew up right along the border where the War of 1812 was quite local. We took a few field trips on both sides of the border as part of our schooling when learning about history. At that time, both sides called it a draw since everything went back to where it was before the war... this is the first I've ever heard otherwise.

 

Yes, there were battles that were won by one side or the other, but in the end, it was just a draw.

[kathymuggle]

At that time, both sides called it a draw since everything went back to where it was before the war... this is the first I've ever heard otherwise.

 

 

 

I am pretty sure many Canadian children were taught Canada (Britain) won the war. I just asked my husband who won and without missing a beat he said "Britain."

 

Here is a blurb from a war of 1812 website http://www.warof1812.ca/summary.html

 

"If any one could claim victory it was Canada. The United States declared war on Great Britain and set out to make Canada states in the union. Ten American armies crossed into Canada and all were driven out."

 

Here is another one (by Stephen Harper, prime Minister, no less, on a government webpage: http://www.1812.gc.ca/eng/1305654894724/1305655293741

 

"The War of 1812 was a seminal event in the making of our great country. On the occasion of its 200th anniversary, I invite all Canadians to share in our history and commemorate our proud and brave ancestors who fought and won against enormous odds"

 

Edited to add: I am not trying to argue Canada won the war. My knowledge of that time period is lacking for that. I do think it is interesting 2 countries have a very different take on it , however, and hope more Canadians come on this thread and let me know what they were taught.

Edited February 4, 2012 by kathymuggle

[elfgivas]

we noticed this when we moved from canada to the usa.

 

fwiw,

in a war, everyone loses....

 

the cbc had a great treatment of the war of 1812 in its history of canada series. i am still haunted by the two sides having dinner the night before together, and the scene of the death of general brock...

 

we're thinking of heading north this summer to take part in some of the activities....

 

ann

[Farrar]

It was our most pointless war... and that's saying something.

[ElizaG]

Hi, Kathy. :) We're a US/Canadian family, and I'm planning to teach both countries' histories together. I recently spent a week or two trying to figure out how to present this issue.

 

I am pretty sure many Canadian children were taught Canada (Britain) won the war.

NB though, Americans don't think of the war as having been between the US and Canada. This is key to understanding our different attitudes. It's not just that the territory in question wasn't called "Canada" at that point, but that they view Britain itself -- as in, the country way over in Europe -- as the major player. Though I was loath to concede this at first, they do have a point when you step back a bit.

 

For one thing, even in the battles that took place on what's now Canadian soil, the vast majority of the soldiers were imported British professionals called in from other assignments. Even General Brock wasn't exactly happy to be stuck in the colonial boondocks for so long, and he saw his role as a career move. If he hadn't been killed, it seems likely that he would have moved on after the war. That was an eye-opener (and kind of a disappointment) when I read parts of his journals. :001_huh:

 

More importantly, from an American perspective, there were very significant battles and issues that had nothing to do with Canada. For example, the issue of impressment was HUGE for the US... an ongoing thorn in their side. In some Canadian books, it's barely mentioned, and treated as if it were some sort of smokescreen for Manifest Destiny. I think this must be because we tend to think of the US as huge and powerful, whereas they saw themselves, at that stage in history, as struggling to keep their independence.

 

Anyway, I don't remember exactly what we were taught in school about the outcome. But looking at it now, as someone with Canadian, US, and British family ties, I think the whole thing stank and nobody won. [ETA: And it's depressing to think that if only they had had better communication, the whole war with its destruction, loss of life, and bitterness might have been avoided. This could be the making of a Smartphone advertisement. "Hey, look at Yahoo news -- they've repealed the laws. Battle's off! Let's search for a place to go for pizza instead."]

 

To me, the low point was the trashing and burning of the White House. What a pointless, loser-ish thing to do. (Which makes it doubly embarrassing that some Canadians are so gleeful about this "achievement." If anything, they should be relieved that it wasn't done by us.)

Edited February 4, 2012 by Eleanor

[creekland]

I am pretty sure many Canadian children were taught Canada (Britain) won the war. I just asked my husband who won and without missing a beat he said "Britain."

 

 

This may be true. However, with our field trips on both sides of the border (forts, battle sites, etc), the powers that be who were there all told us that the war was essentially a draw overall as well as talking about what specifically happened at their location (those generally did have winners/losers).

 

I distinctly remember one fort visit where the guide didn't realize we were American children until toward the end of our visit when he non-nonchalantly asked us who the first prime minister was - and none of us knew. I've remembered ever since... ;) (Someone finally clued him in that we were from the US. He was getting a little frustrated - and may have continued with that afterward, but...)

[Aelwydd]

My favorite bit of the entire War was the torching of the White House. When the British/Canadian forces broke into the legislative houses, they held a mock congress and voted unanimously to burn down the White House.

 

Never let it be said that they don't have a keen sense of irony. :D

 

 

(Here's

of a documentary by The History Channel on it. See 6:35 for the bit I mentioned.)

[swellmomma]

I am Canadian, we were taught that the most important thing to remember about the war of 1812 is that Canadians burned down the white house and showed the Americans that we were not going to be converted into another state. We kept our allegiance to Britian but still proved to be a force to be reckoned with. Who won or lost was not really discussed outside of that 1 battle. This was by the same teacher would would somehow managed to make some comment about the Cuban missle crisis into every social studies discussion no matter what we were studying, We would be learning about the TUdors and suddenly he would be spouting off about the cuban missile crisis.

[swellmomma]

My favorite bit of the entire War was the torching of the White House. When the British/Canadian forces broke into the legislative houses, they held a mock congress and voted unanimously to burn down the White House.

 

Never let it be said that they don't have a keen sense of irony. :D

 

 

(Here's

of a documentary by The History Channel on it. See 6:35 for the bit I mentioned.)

 

 

In my attempt to be funny in the thread killer thread, I posted a song about this. It did not go over well, apparently to find humor in a song about burning the white house and making americans cry like babies you have to be Canadian. ;)

[Mama Lynx]

Americans feel victorious in this war because we remained an independent nation.

 

Right. It was an important war for us because we were able to assert our status as an independent nation, especially against Britain. That's why it was a "win" for us.

[Aelwydd]

In my attempt to be funny in the thread killer thread, I posted a song about this. It did not go over well, apparently to find humor in a song about burning the white house and making americans cry like babies you have to be Canadian. ;)

 

 

If I'd seen it, I promise I'd have laughed. Americans take themselves too seriously.

 

(Of course, I probably don't count, since it's sort of dh's and my dream to move to the True North and become Canuckians ourselves. ;) )

[Aelwydd]

This was by the same teacher would would somehow managed to make some comment about the Cuban missle crisis into every social studies discussion no matter what we were studying, We would be learning about the TUdors and suddenly he would be spouting off about the cuban missile crisis.

 

LOL. Obviously, the man loves his cigars.

[swellmomma]

If I'd seen it, I promise I'd have laughed. Americans take themselves too seriously.

 

(Of course, I probably don't count, since it's sort of dh's and my dream to move to the True North and become Canuckians ourselves. ;) )

 

you go

 

ETA Arrogant worms sing this song. If you know their mousic they make songs about everything including tim horton's coffee etc. and one of my favorite's the last saskatchewan pirate

Edited February 4, 2012 by swellmomma

[Aelwydd]

you go

 

ETA Arrogant worms sing this song. If you know their mousic they make songs about everything including tim horton's coffee etc. and one of my favorite's the last saskatchewan pirate

 

 

LOL!!! :lol::lol::lol:

 

 

We did cry like babies, too, very emotionally. :D

[kathymuggle]

This may be true. However, with our field trips on both sides of the border (forts, battle sites, etc), the powers that be who were there all told us that the war was essentially a draw overall as well as talking about what specifically happened at their location (those generally did have winners/losers).

 

Hmmmm.

 

This makes me wonder if time has changed our perception of who won/lost?

 

I am 40 and Dh is 43 - we were in school a while ago.

 

I think I will ask random people I run into this week what they think.

 

I might even be able to turn into some sort of research/graphing project I half foist on the kids, lol

[LizzyBee]

I didn't even know Canada was involved. I thought the war was between Britain and the US. I can't remember the details we learned in school, but my lasting impression was that the reasons for fighting it were unclear (to me) and neither side really won. I graduated in 1981.

Edited February 5, 2012 by LizzyBee

[creekland]

Hmmmm.

 

This makes me wonder if time has changed our perception of who won/lost?

 

I am 40 and Dh is 43 - we were in school a while ago.

 

I think I will ask random people I run into this week what they think.

 

I might even be able to turn into some sort of research/graphing project I half foist on the kids, lol

 

I'm a little older than each of you. ;)

 

Now that I'm curious I'm going to TRY to remember to ask the history teacher here in PA. It may very well be different once one gets away from the border. Who knows? They may not even teach it much here considering our proximity to Gettysburg.

 

I grew up - literally - in a border town. Many people had relatives on both sides of the border. We often went to Canada for dinner or entertainment or even playing softball or showing horses. I never actually considered Canada a foreign country and neither do my boys (even though they haven't grown up on the border). I guess inside I just feel like I belong to both countries even though that isn't technically true. Being on the border they may not have wanted to "take sides?"

[kathymuggle]

Being on the border they may not have wanted to "take sides?"

 

interesting!

 

I asked DS (15) and my sister (30) who won and they both said Canada/Britain. I asked my son where he learned that, and he said he learned it in history (in high school) this year.

 

My mother, though, who is 71 said it was a tie. She has good general knowledge, but is not a history buff, and alluded to the fact she learned it was a tie in school (in the 1940's or 50's!)

 

Her argument is that the invasion of Upper and Lower Canada was only part of the war, and while they failed in that initiative, in other areas it was a wash.

[KatA]

Here's a little War of 1812 humor that I came across earlier this year when we were studying it. I think a lot of people are muddled about why we fought and who won. Enjoy.

 

 

 

"Wikipedia has nothing!" :lol::lol:

 

That was awesome. Thank you.

[Ibbygirl]

"Wikipedia has nothing!" :lol::lol:

 

That was awesome. Thank you.

 

:iagree::lol::lol::lol:

[kathymuggle]

http://www.pbs.org/wned/war-of-1812/essays/

 

I thought this was an interesting read from US/Canada/British perspective.

[bettyandbob]

this thread was way more interesting than I thought it would be.

 

I was taught that Britain invaded and we (US) maintained our sovereignty and did not become British subjects again.

 

If they invaded and did not get to reclaim the US as colonies, how could it be portrayed as them winning or even a draw? Who cares if the White House burned--they didn't get to keep it. And Dolly Madison saved George Washington's portrait when she cleared out of the White House.

 

OK, maybe I need to study this again.

[ravinlunachick]

this thread was way more interesting than I thought it would be.

 

I was taught that Britain invaded and we (US) maintained our sovereignty and did not become British subjects again.

 

If they invaded and did not get to reclaim the US as colonies, how could it be portrayed as them winning or even a draw? Who cares if the White House burned--they didn't get to keep it. And Dolly Madison saved George Washington's portrait when she cleared out of the White House.

 

OK, maybe I need to study this again.

 

Yep. That's what I was taught as well. I was told Dolly Madison saved the Constitution (or was it the DOI?) by rolling it up and taking it with her as she escaped, disguised as a servant.

 

I believe I actually gasped while reading the OP. I'm continually shocked at what I was "taught" as a student.

[kathymuggle]

Here is what I was taught north of the border:

 

The USA invaded Canada (Upper and Lower - what is now Quebec and Ontario) and were not successful in taking it. Hence the Americans lost the war, as they were not successful in invading Canada.

 

My education at the hands of Google today seem to indicate it was not as clear cut as that in terms of who lost or win the war. It seems to be one confusing war. My next step will be looking up the reasons or goals of the war - that might help me determine who won it.

[KathyBC]

To me, the low point was the trashing and burning of the White House. What a pointless, loser-ish thing to do. (Which makes it doubly embarrassing that some Canadians are so gleeful about this "achievement." If anything, they should be relieved that it wasn't done by us.)

 

Apparently this was in retaliataion for similar actions by the Americans at York.

[KathyBC]

I was taught Canada won, too. When ds and I covered this last year, it was great to learn more of the policital complexities of the time. What we took away from our studies was that America lost the battle but won in the sense of affirming their independence from Britain; Canada won the battle but didn't really gain anything; and the First Nations lost everything. It seems ironic as we might not have won without the crippling fear they inspired in battle.

[KathyBC]

the cbc had a great treatment of the war of 1812 in its history of canada series.

 

We really enjoyed this series. What sticks in my memory is the American politician who claimed victory would be "a mere matter of marching".

[Linda in NE]

Most of the US claim to "winning" the War of 1812 stems from the fact that Andrew Jackson, leading a hodge podge bunch of Kentucky and Tennessee riflemen and some soldiers operating heavy artillery, scored a decisive victory against the British at New Orleans in 1814. Anybody heard the Johnny Horton recording -- "In 1814, we took a little trip; Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississip. We took a little bacon, and we took a little beans, and we caught the bloody British at the town of New Orleans?"

 

Here's a link to the song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxB42cjHTGg

 

Anyway, word of this victory reached D.C. about the same time the peace treaty was being signed. As a result, even though the treaty resulted in no real net change in territory, the U.S. ended up with bragging rights to the "win" by virtue of being the last to prevail in a major battle between the two antagonists.

 

Essentially, the war was a draw on the whole. But, again, Britain was the world power of the time and, as in the Revolutionary War period, the United States was the underdog. An underdog fighting a world power to a draw is, arguably, a win of sorts as well.

[kathymuggle]

I think the Battle of New Orleans took place after the treaty ending the war had been signed. The Americans were certainly victorious there, but I question whether a battle after a treaty is signed can be used in deciding who was victorious.

 

Interesting question - how is it determined who wins a war?

[Caroline]

I think the Battle of New Orleans took place after the treaty ending the war had been signed. The Americans were certainly victorious there, but I question whether a battle after a treaty is signed can be used in deciding who was victorious.

 

Interesting question - how is it determined who wins a war?

 

That might make a cool poster- Who won the war?

[Matryoshka]

Essentially, the war was a draw on the whole. But, again, Britain was the world power of the time and, as in the Revolutionary War period, the United States was the underdog. An underdog fighting a world power to a draw is, arguably, a win of sorts as well.

 

Yeah, Britain was a world power very busy fighting Napoleon.

 

As soon as the UK signed for peace with the French and could turn their full attention toward us, the US made up with them pretty darn fast! The treaty with France was in April, and the treaty to end the US war with the UK was in December.

 

I like how the treaty to end the war was the "status quo ante bellum". That pretty much says "never mind, it's a draw".

 

I don't think the US would ever have tried to pick a fight with the UK if they hadn't been very busy on another front. (Even in US-written books I read with the kids when we were studying this, they said the US invaded Canada - maybe they're getting more honest?) Of course, the impressment of US sailors to serve on ships in the British navy against France was part of the reason the US gave for the war.

 

The only losers in the war, as a PP said, were the Native Americans. Tecumseh and a coalition of Native Americans sided with the Brits, who then deserted them on the battlefield, where they were wiped out, opening the "northwest territories" to settlement. The Cherokee fought on the US side, which of course didn't stop them from being deported to Oklahoma 15 years later.

 

From the wiki on the Napoleonic wars:

 

Coinciding with the War of the Sixth Coalition but not considered part of the Napoleonic Wars by most Americans, the otherwise neutral United States, owing to various transgressions (such as impressment), by the British Royal Navy, declared war on the United Kingdom and attempted to invade British North America. The war ended in the status quo ante bellum under the Treaty of Ghent, signed on 24 December 1814, though sporadic fighting continued for several months (most notably, the Battle of New Orleans). Apart from the seizing of then-Spanish Mobile by the United States, there was negligible involvement from other participants of the broader Napoleonic War. Notably, a series of British raids, later called the Burning of Washington, would result in the burning of the White House, the Capitol, the Navy Yard, and other public buildings. The main effect of the War of 1812 on the wider Napoleonic Wars was to force Britain to divert troops, supplies and funds to defend Canada.

[bettyandbob]

Of course, the impressment of US sailors to serve on ships in the British navy against France was part of the reason the US gave for the war.

 

 

Don't you think most countries would find a way to respond to such behavior?

[ElizaG]

Apparently this was in retaliataion for similar actions by the Americans at York.

True, but at least Americans these days don't write novelty pop songs boasting about how great they were for doing it. :tongue_smilie:

 

Which they didn't, anyway. The troops who burned the White House, and the leaders who told them to do it, were not Canadian. Nor were they British subjects living in Canadian territory. They were plain old British. Marmite eaters. Eastenders-watchers. Well, not in those days, but you get the drift. ;) (*)

 

So that's why I said it was especially loser-ish. The British had already lost control of the United States in the Revolutionary War. They knew (or should have known) that they weren't going to get it back. But then they decided to burn the US Capitol, Library of Congress, etc. in an act of gratuitous and wanton destruction.

 

--------------

 

(*) Smug indie bands and myopic geography teachers take note: The troops and their leaders were from the British Isles, and were fresh from the Napoleonic Wars in Europe. Under orders from England, they were dispatched from places like France and Spain, gathered in Bermuda, sailed to the east coast of the US, fought in DC, Baltimore, and New Orleans, then went back to Europe.

 

At what point they are supposed to have morphed into "Canadians" is beyond me. :confused:

 

Wikipedia does note that the general -- who died in Baltimore -- ended up being buried in Halifax, his body having been shipped there in a huge barrel of Jamaican rum. Eh mon! But I'm not sure that qualifies him as a Canadian. Though in dim light, he might pass for a Newfoundlander. :D

[KathyBC]

Seriously? You don't like the Arrogant Worms? No sense of humour at all. :svengo:

 

As for the Brits, they were a little tied up fighting the French. They didn't attack the U.S.; the U.S. attacked British North America. Although as someone else mentioned, issues like impressment would certainly have made good motivation. Still, I don't think the British own the patent on looting and burning during wartime... as proved at York, when the Americans burned down the assembly buildings and made off with the parliamentary mace.

 

Re: Robert Ross, I'm not even sure who that was. Our famous general from 1812 is Sir Isaac Brock.

 

ETA: Just followed your link. According to that,

"The public buildings of the city, including the United States Capitol and the White House were burned as retaliation for the destructive American raids into Canada, most notably the Americans' Burning of York (modern Toronto) in 1813. Controversy still surrounds Ross's decision to destroy public property, but spare private property during the burning." So unless your point is that the American choice in York to burn both private and public property was somehow less wanton and destructive, I don't think the link helps your anti-British stance any.

Edited February 5, 2012 by KathyBC

[KathyBC]

Essentially, the war was a draw on the whole. But, again, Britain was the world power of the time and, as in the Revolutionary War period, the United States was the underdog. An underdog fighting a world power to a draw is, arguably, a win of sorts as well.

 

At the time, America's population was 7.5 million, while Upper Canada had <80,000. We were outnumbered, although I would agree that militias versus professional military men might even the odds a bit.

[gardenmom5]

this thread was way more interesting than I thought it would be.

 

I was taught that Britain invaded and we (US) maintained our sovereignty and did not become British subjects again.

 

If they invaded and did not get to reclaim the US as colonies, how could it be portrayed as them winning or even a draw? Who cares if the White House burned--they didn't get to keep it. And Dolly Madison saved George Washington's portrait when she cleared out of the White House.

 

OK, maybe I need to study this again.

 

This is what I was taught back in the 70's.

 

and I live in WA -where in the San Juan's we had the "almost" pig-war between the US and British troops (as in: from britain, stationed in canada). THAT would have been the stupidest excuse for a war ever.

Edited February 5, 2012 by gardenmom5

[LibraryLover]

This thread is totally cracking me up. :)

[Audrey]

I had always learned (growing up in the US) that the Americans fought the British in the War of 1812 and won.

 

Then, I moved to Canada and learned not only is Laura Secord more than a candy store, she also won the war for Canada.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf-nZZg3iBw

 

Thank you Heritage Minutes!

[KathyBC]

oops, double post

Edited February 5, 2012 by KathyBC

[KathyBC]

This is what I was taught back in the 70's.

 

and I live in WA -where in the San Juan's we had the "almost" pig-war between the US and British troops (as in: from britain, stationed in canada). THAT would have been the stupidest excuse for a war ever.

 

Wasn't that something, eh? From the Canadian perspective, this is considered an American - Hudson's Bay Company dispute and the fact that Canada was still a British Colony (i.e. British troops) isn't considered relevant to that rather ridiculous showdown. But seeing it from the American perspective is enlightening.