Homeschoolshare and Five in a Row

[Jenny in GA]

We have also been disappointed in more than a few moms who have said, "We never bought the manuals- we do FIAR by just reading the books and downloading freebies online." That's a shame for them and their children.

 

Maybe it isn't a shame. Maybe those families have had a great experience doing that and it fit their needs perfectly.

 

Is it "a shame" that a family reads Make Way for Ducklings and enjoys it and discusses it but aren't FIAR users?

 

Sheesh.

 

Oh, and I must add that Ami deserves kudos for handling all this in such a kind and graceful manner.

[southernm]

Is it really down? I was looking today and had 1 show up...their stuff is nothing like FIAR...its her own little thing using the same books but very little is directly attached to items in the BFIAR book. Sadness if she did have to remove it all.

 

No I think she renamed everything to "literature units" of something like that. I don't use FIAR but her other printables. When she was told to pull the FIAR stuff off she seemed pretty upset through her fb posts. She posted something about if yesterday too. Sounds like to me this guy is being pretty abrasive to everyone who put up FIAR type materials.

[Scrub Jay]

We used FIAR when DD was 4 and really enjoyed it. But, honestly, I could have easily created my own curriculum built around using great children's literature. It would take more time but it would still be very doable.

 

I think what they offer is a nice resource and I definitely do not think it's OK for people to scan their books and offer them online. But to get out of shape because someone offers a resource to your resource seems like a good way to alienate customers.

[southernm]

I think they are eating their humble pie. I just checked the FIAR curriculum FB site (being completely nosey) and they are actually linking users to Homeschool Creations literature based units that happen to correspond with the FIAR books...

 

ETA: NM looks like that is not the "official" site. Wonder if he will have that one taken down?

Edited November 15, 2011 by southernm

[Murphy101]

This is their livelihood, not some just-for-fun hobby, though.

 

But that is not what he claims repeatedly. He insists they aren't a business, but rather that they are a Christian mission. :glare:

 

He objects to calling that "homeschooling". Does he feel FIAR as written is the only thing that should be called homeschooling?

 

Yes.

 

The second paragraph he has a point. That would be copyright infringement, wouldn't it? That is something he could, and should, address and try to stop. But, that has nothing to do with people writing supplemental materials for children's books that happen to appear on a certain curriculums list.

 

I agree. If someone is claiming they have a FIAR product, that is not right. However, I have never seen it written that way in many years on the net. (ETA: It might be somewhere. But I sure have not seen it and it isn't the first several pages on a google search.) It is written as additional FIAR supplements or lap books or whatever. And that is legal and okay. As someone else said, if I write or say that I found a lab kit or made a lab kit to go with glencoe science or whatever - that's not a copyright issue and I don't need permission from glencoe to share that on my blog or wherever.

 

The reality is Steve wants people to use only FIAR products and even further, to only use them as directed in the manuals. He repeatedly calls this his mission to avoid homeschool burnout and to foster gentle learning and to save those ignorant women from themselves.:glare:

 

It's a shame they have this attitude and perspective because the FIAR manuals are a great start to relaxed homeschooling with a unit study approach for gals like myself who don't naturally embrace such a philosophy.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Martha

[Mrs Mungo]

Who buys $200 dollar textbooks? This is a serious question. I buy lots of books, but I haven't seen any that expensive. Is that going to take me by surprise in Jr. High or High School?

 

It might.

 

I spent about $150-200/year until middle school. High school is when things became really expensive for us.

 

The Holt science curricula packages (student text, teacher text, cd with labs, worksheets, quizzes, tests and videos) we have used for high school were $270 each. The math we use is $185 per year. The current homeschool version of Rosetta Stone levels 1 & 2 is $279. If you choose to do some online classes? Those run around $500/year.

 

People can and do manage to do it for less and still provide a quality education. But, it requires more effort.

[Murphy101]

It might.

 

I spent about $150-200/year until middle school. High school is when things became really expensive for us.

 

The Holt science curricula packages (student text, teacher text, cd with labs, worksheets, quizzes, tests and videos) we have used for high school were $270 each. The math we use is $185 per year. The current homeschool version of Rosetta Stone levels 1 & 2 is $279. If you choose to do some online classes? Those run around $500/year.

 

People can and do manage to do it for less and still provide a quality education. But, it requires more effort.

 

Yes. Wss. A single text usually isn't $200, but all the materials for a single course might total that or more. Easily. Very easily if it is an outsourced course.

[Meriwether]

It might.

 

I spent about $150-200/year until middle school. High school is when things became really expensive for us.

 

The Holt science curricula packages (student text, teacher text, cd with labs, worksheets, quizzes, tests and videos) we have used for high school were $270 each. The math we use is $185 per year. The current homeschool version of Rosetta Stone levels 1 & 2 is $279. If you choose to do some online classes? Those run around $500/year.

 

People can and do manage to do it for less and still provide a quality education. But, it requires more effort.

 

 

Yes, I can see that. I knew the highschool texts would be more expensive, but $200 seemed like a lot. I was visualizing one textbook when I read that, not the student text plus everything else. I thought - well, I'm not sure what I thought - maybe he was using hyperbole. I bought the FIAR Vol. 1 and the books that went with it. That was over $200. If I had bought their add-ons it would have been over $300.

[CAMom]

I think there is going to be a difference in perspective between people who have personal experience with Steve and those who don't. Some know how it works behind the scenes and some don't.

 

At any rate, I'm glad that Ami is able to leave the resources up! Personally, I believe FIAR would be shooting themselves in the foot to have them taken down. Those products greatly enrich the FIAR experience. They certainly help those of us who are not creative enough to come up with extras on our own. And, yes, I'm well aware that FIAR doesn't need any extras but some kids want them and some moms are impaired in that department.;)

[Myeightkiddies]

As long as HSS directed people to the FIAR manuals, it just seems like free advertising. I don't doubt that some, who purchased FIAR manuals, discovered the curriculum on HSS.

 

Instead of threatening them with legal action, perhaps FIAR should give them a commission.

[elfgivas]

Yes, I can see that. I knew the highschool texts would be more expensive, but $200 seemed like a lot. I was visualizing one textbook when I read that, not the student text plus everything else. I thought - well, I'm not sure what I thought - maybe he was using hyperbole. I bought the FIAR Vol. 1 and the books that went with it. That was over $200. If I had bought their add-ons it would have been over $300.

 

an example for us of textbook cost was our attempt to find the teacher's addition of Ken Miller's biology. the cheapest i could find it was close to $300-, but some kind person listed it on ebay for less than 50, so we have it now. that was one book, and a lot of money..... but he is so worth it.

 

ann

[In the Rain]

This is what they sent out in email:

 

Here is what was posted concerning HSS--

'I want to say this carefully, but homeschool share and other "freebie" sites are NOT in ANY WAY related to FIAR. Some of the "freebies" there are better than nothing- and frankly some are worse than nothing. They are all derivative works that present themselves as "go alongs" with FIAR. They are not approved. They are not bona fide. And in many cases they seriously detract from FIAR's well-proven purpose, goals and educational achievements.

 

While we have not taken legal action against any of the well-intentioned posters there, there is a growing discussion among curriculum publishers about that very topic. Our concern (as publishers) is *NOT* that somebody might be taking away from our income (though that is one result) but rather that we've heard far too many people think that by using the many free derivative works and reading the stories selected by FIAR (or several other curricula) someone might actually *THINK* they're "doing the curriculum" and will likely be horrified at the results several years down the line.

 

Worse yet- they might BLAME us, saying "their curriculum didn't work at all" when in fact they never USED our curriculum; only one-offs, freebies and pirated derivatives.

 

Again- I don't want to sound ugly or ungrateful. We are flattered that so many people have wanted to "share" their activities and ideas about our beloved curriculum. On the other hand, I feel we have a responsibility to shepherd what the Lord has entrusted to us and constantly pointing people to homeschool share and other hosts for non-approved derivatives is a grave disservice to other FIAR users who may be getting mediocre or even BAD products which detract from their children's education.

With a concerned heart,

Steve

 

. . . FIAR FoldnLearns are SPECIFICALLY crafted to go along with the story, reinforce the educational objectives of the story and do so in a way that encourages your student to grow in important developmental skills and knowledge. Some freebies do the some of those same things. Others however, are nothing more than "babysitters"- educational "fluff" with absolutely no academic value and in some cases they may in fact teach information that is NOT appropriate for the age group we're aiming at, and may teach it in a way that either underutilizes your child's abilities, or worse still frustrates them by expecting too much of them at their developmental stage. Think of it as buying a new Mercedes Benz and then changing the tires for freebies found at the junk yard, a free used battery somebody set out on the curb for recycling, etc. It may work. It may not. But what would be the most frustrating would be for you to do that and then blame Mercedes for your woes 2 years later> "We paid top dollar for that automobile and it was totally unreliable: flat tires, dead battery, etc." We're all free to accessories our cars (and our curriculum) in any way we want- but just don't assume that if someone has hijacked the name "FIAR" that it's in any way related to the learning objectives of the curriculum you've purchased with good money and good intentions.'

 

The FIAR resources will be removed on Saturday, November 19th.

 

I started to bold all of the parts I found especially insulting, and then realized there wasn't much left unbolded. Steve slams his customer base of homeschool moms so hard, that an apology really isn't enough. :glare: He makes it clear that hs moms are unable to differentiate between quality curriculum and junk, they are unable to tell if their child is learning (until years later), and can't figure out how to choose and use materials appropriate for their children. He publicly apologized for his comments, but that doesn't erase the way he apparently feels about the competence of hs moms, KWIM? :confused:

 

I agree with others who stated this probably is about money being taken from his company. Over the years, the issue has come up several times. I recall a post he made about how people who buy used manuals, or give their manuals to friends are hurting the company.

 

ETA: We used and enjoyed FIAR. I have recommended it to new hs moms over the years because it teaches a wonderful way of educating children without textbooks. I find his recent comments so insulting though, that I don't know if I could continue to recommend it. I don't want to support someone who seems to find hs moms incompetent.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Julianna

[Lady Florida.]

ETA: We used and enjoyed FIAR. I have recommended it to new hs moms over the years because it teaches a wonderful way of educating children without textbooks. I find his recent comments so insulting though, that I don't know if I could continue to recommend it. I don't want to support someone who seems to find hs moms incompetent.

 

 

I tend to agree. I often recommend FIAR when someone is looking for a gentle way to do school with young children. Now I'm not sure I want to. I used it with ds, but Lambert would say I didn't. I bought the first manual (used, by the way) which taught me the basic premise. We never read the book 5 days in a row because ds would have hated that, but we always read the books more than once. After the first manual, I merely used the book list, or found other good picture books at the library to row, and came up with some wonderful fun and educational activities.

 

Ds is 14, and so far, I'm not horrified at the results. :001_rolleyes:

[LaxMom]

I started to bold all of the parts I found especially insulting, and then realized there wasn't much left unbolded. Steve slams his customer base of homeschool moms so hard, that an apology really isn't enough. :glare: He makes it clear that hs moms are unable to differentiate between quality curriculum and junk, they are unable to tell if their child is learning (until years later), and can't figure out how to choose and use materials appropriate for their children. He publicly apologized for his comments, but that doesn't erase the way he apparently feels about the competence of hs moms, KWIM? :confused:

 

I agree with others who stated this probably is about money being taken from his company. Over the years, the issue has come up several times. I recall a post he made about how people who buy used manuals, or give their manuals to friends are hurting the company.

 

ETA: We used and enjoyed FIAR. I have recommended it to new hs moms over the years because it teaches a wonderful way of educating children without textbooks. I find his recent comments so insulting though, that I don't know if I could continue to recommend it. I don't want to support someone who seems to find hs moms incompetent.

 

I agree. As someone whose children didn't enjoy FIAR, I generally say just that, not that the program is useless. As a homeschooling parent, I expect the same courtesy: not being labeled incompetent because some things are not a good fit for my children or need additional supplementation to make it an ideal fit.

 

Unfortunately, I see that attitude from a lot of resource vendors and others in the homeschooling circuits. And I always think, if I'm as incompetent as they appear to think I am, then I shouldn't be educating my children, with or without their astute guidance. :glare:

[Jean in Newcastle]

Unfortunately, I see that attitude from a lot of resource vendors and others in the homeschooling circuits. And I always think, if I'm as incompetent as they appear to think I am, then I shouldn't be educating my children, with or without their astute guidance. :glare:

 

Yes, I've seen that as well and have had the same thoughts! (Not that I've let them stop me.)

[2cents]

I used FIAR when we first started hsing many moons ago. I wasn't impressed with them then, for various reasons, and certainly not now. Personally I find it offensive that FIAR thinks that hsers would not know a quality resource without the guidance of FIAR. Seriously??!! Sounds like they need a reality check.

 

There is no way that they can prevent people from sharing resources to use along with a curriculum. I say "share away" and tell FIAR to get over themselves. If the curriculum was 'all that' then there wouldn't be so much demand for other resources.

[musicianmom]

I'm tempted to say that reading the same picture books over and over to kids as old as 8 (who should at least be LISTENING to more complex literature by that age), combined with random educational activities that bounce from topic to topic and don't provide a structured method of building academic skills from year to year, is not really homeschooling.

 

Kudos to those of you who have obviously made FIAR work for you and have children who are academically successful. I guess that proves that the teacher is more important than the curriculum after all.

 

I realize this sounds more like a bash FIAR post. I don't hate the curriculum, even though it totally didn't work for us. But if the authors of the program are going to be that condescending to homeschool parents, then the temptation to offer a counter-critique is more than I can resist.

[Kimber]

I bet he doesn't really believe that homeschooling moms are so incompetent. More than likely, he's just frustrated that some freebies, those which are poorly done, are giving his product a bad reputation.

 

I imagine it would be very frustrating to not have control over how your product is portrayed. It's probably that he's afraid that when others use the poorly done freebies (not the worthwhile ones obviously) that his product reputation will be damaged because the freebies are a derivative of his product. And legally, no one has the right to make derivative works off of his product without his consent.

 

I'm just guessing here because I have never used FIAR, and I don't know the authors behind it nor anything about them. And I don't claim to speak for him or his company. I'm just guessing.

 

Kim, who really needs to go back to lurking and chores

 

(I love reading these boards. They're always interesting, but I am swamped with trying to formally roll my younger son into the mix. He's 6 and he's willful and he's not rolling easily.)

[LidiyaDawn]

 

I imagine it would be very frustrating to not have control over how your product is portrayed. It's probably that he's afraid that when others use the poorly done freebies (not the worthwhile ones obviously) that his product reputation will be damaged because the freebies are a derivative of his product. And legally, no one has the right to make derivative works off of his product without his consent.

 

 

So….if someone makes their own colouring page, worksheet, science experiment, or whatever to go with X .. it's illegal?

 

That doesn't sound right...

[Jean in Newcastle]

So….if someone makes their own colouring page, worksheet, science experiment, or whatever to go with X .. it's illegal?

 

That doesn't sound right...

 

It isn't right because his product is simply lesson plans to go with certain books. All other people are doing is to make other lesson plans or activities to go with the same books. If anyone had a right to go after someone, it would be the original authors because their story and characters were original with them.

[Murphy101]

It isn't right because his product is simply lesson plans to go with certain books. All other people are doing is to make other lesson plans or activities to go with the same books. If anyone had a right to go after someone, it would be the original authors because their story and characters were original with them.

 

Yes. And even that isn't the case iirc? As long as the original source being referenced* is properly credited and sited, then I don't think there is any legal issue there.

 

* referenced. Not copied. Tho even copying to a minor level is acceptable legally. We do it all the time when we quote people or read reviews or discuss what we do or don't like about various materials.

 

Otherwise, it would be illegal for book critics to even mention the books they dislike?

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I think there is going to be a difference in perspective between people who have personal experience with Steve and those who don't. Some know how it works behind the scenes and some don't.

 

 

 

I met Steve and Jane over 7 years ago at a homeschooling convention. It was the first day I had ever heard of FIAR. Over the years I have come to know Steve as a fair and kind man.

 

That is NOT to say that we always agree. In fact, we rarely do! :lol:

 

But, in the wee hours of the night when my brother was dying, Steve and Jane were there for me, offering me advice (that I asked for!) and a shoulder when it felt like I had no one else. :crying:

 

I guess you could say that I'm biased. :grouphug:

[Murphy101]

I met Steve and Jane over 7 years ago at a homeschooling convention. It was the first day I had ever heard of FIAR. Over the years I have come to know Steve as a fair and kind man.

 

That is NOT to say that we always agree. In fact, we rarely do! :lol:

 

But, in the wee hours of the night when my brother was dying, Steve and Jane were there for me, offering me advice (that I asked for!) and a shoulder when it felt like I had no one else. :crying:

 

I guess you could say that I'm biased. :grouphug:

 

Yes, but rightly so. :grouphug::)