I have to say it

[justamouse]

On Pintrest, there is this pin of a gazillion things to say instead of *said* when writing. And it's getting pinned everywhere. It's making me crazy.

 

STOP IT.

 

Just, NO.

 

Said. It's a good word. Use it. If you absolutely *have* to.

 

All of those other words that people teach thier kids to add onto dialog, that they think *add* to the writing? It doesn't. It's the hallmark of an amateur. Stop it. An editor will redline every one of them, if it gets that far.

 

Dialog should have a subtext that is all the character. If it doesn't, if you are reading and you can't tell which character is speaking by how and what they are saying, then you use a beat-a little piece of action that shows who is speaking.

 

Until your little writer gets to that level -use said. It blends into the background and forces you to show, not tell.

[Kirch]

I hear you. I learned that a couple of years ago when I wrote a story for the local paper. They had put out an ad for writers, and after sending in a sample, the editor told me to find a story, write it, and send it in. Overall it went pretty well, but he corrected several things that didn't fit journalistic style requirements. One of the things he told me was to just use "said." So now I do. :D

[Annie Laurie]

It took me awhile to learn that, but yes, now I can see how artificial it sounds to have "replied", "whispered", "stated", etc. Good reminder.

[Guest submarines]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Tabula Rasa]

On Pintrest, there is this pin of a gazillion things to say instead of *said* when writing. And it's getting pinned everywhere. It's making me crazy.

 

STOP IT.

 

Just, NO.

 

Said. It's a good word. Use it. If you absolutely *have* to.

 

All of those other words that people teach thier kids to add onto dialog, that they think *add* to the writing? It doesn't. It's the hallmark of an amateur. Stop it. An editor will redline every one of them, if it gets that far.

 

Dialog should have a subtext that is all the character. If it doesn't, if you are reading and you can't tell which character is speaking by how and what they are saying, then you use a beat-a little piece of action that shows who is speaking.

 

Until your little writer gets to that level -use said. It blends into the background and forces you to show, not tell.

 

YES! YES! YES!

 

:iagree:

[Mergath]

*twitch*

 

Somebody needs to set those poor people straight. Although, in all fairness, using all those fancy said-replacement words was one of the many things I had to unlearn from my college writing classes. For some reason, college writing professors love it when their students have characters ejaculate words instead of just saying them.

[Word Nerd]

:iagree:

 

I started a Ranty pin board just so I could go off on that pin (and the pins that show word art posters and quotes that the creator never bothered to proofread; it's not just a typo—it's a fancy typo!).

 

I once read a book in which the characters didn't say anything—they only spat, simpered, whispered, shouted, blurted, or yawned things. It was so distracting it was comical.

[eaglei]

Can I be the odd-man-out? While I know using other words in place of "said" can (and often is) overdone - nonetheless, it is boring and repetitious to keep repeating "said". Quite a few years ago, we (meaning I) read the Kids Left Behind series out loud for family reading. All the dialog used "said". :glare: I got SO tired of reading it; my listeners got tired of hearing it - I started changing it . . .

 

ANY word that is repeated over and over and over . . . well, it's annoying. Even longer years ago, I read a novel by Catherine Marshall (Julie). To this day, I still remember the blatant overuse of the word "then".

 

By the way, I haven't read the item that the OP referred to - am not familiar with the site she mentioned (Pinterest???)

 

Okay, you-all can start tossing the tomatoes at me now!!!

[justamouse]

*twitch*

 

Somebody needs to set those poor people straight. Although, in all fairness, using all those fancy said-replacement words was one of the many things I had to unlearn from my college writing classes. For some reason, college writing professors love it when their students have characters ejaculate words instead of just saying them.

 

Heh. Then you won't be competition anymore.

 

And don't get me started on adverbs. ;)

[justamouse]

Can I be the odd-man-out? While I know using other words in place of "said" can (and often is) overdone - nonetheless, it is boring and repetitious to keep repeating "said". Quite a few years ago, we (meaning I) read the Kids Left Behind series out loud for family reading. All the dialog used "said". :glare: I got SO tired of reading it; my listeners got tired of hearing it - I started changing it . . .

 

ANY word that is repeated over and over and over . . . well, it's annoying. Even longer years ago, I read a novel by Catherine Marshall (Julie). To this day, I still remember the blatant overuse of the word "then".

 

By the way, I haven't read the item that the OP referred to - am not familiar with the site she mentioned (Pinterest???)

 

Okay, you-all can start tossing the tomatoes at me now!!!

 

Writing, like fashion, goes through stylistic changes. And, every editor will have certain peeves.

 

Said shouldn't be used a ton. You shouldn't see it all over the page. But when it is used, it should kind of fall off into white.

 

Forget about pintrest, it's crack. I've warned you. ;)

[DianeW88]

On Pintrest, there is this pin of a gazillion things to say instead of *said* when writing. And it's getting pinned everywhere. It's making me crazy.

 

STOP IT.

 

Just, NO.

 

Said. It's a good word. Use it. If you absolutely *have* to.

 

All of those other words that people teach thier kids to add onto dialog, that they think *add* to the writing? It doesn't. It's the hallmark of an amateur. Stop it. An editor will redline every one of them, if it gets that far.

 

Dialog should have a subtext that is all the character. If it doesn't, if you are reading and you can't tell which character is speaking by how and what they are saying, then you use a beat-a little piece of action that shows who is speaking.

 

Until your little writer gets to that level -use said. It blends into the background and forces you to show, not tell.

 

AMEN!!! *she said*

[LibraryLover]

Haven't seen it, but please tell me ejaculated isn't listed. That's still wrong, right? May the goddesses forgive the Brontes. ;)

Edited November 4, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Ginevra]

On Pintrest, there is this pin of a gazillion things to say instead of *said* when writing. And it's getting pinned everywhere. It's making me crazy.

 

STOP IT.

 

Just, NO.

 

Said. It's a good word. Use it. If you absolutely *have* to.

 

All of those other words that people teach thier kids to add onto dialog, that they think *add* to the writing? It doesn't. It's the hallmark of an amateur. Stop it. An editor will redline every one of them, if it gets that far.

 

Dialog should have a subtext that is all the character. If it doesn't, if you are reading and you can't tell which character is speaking by how and what they are saying, then you use a beat-a little piece of action that shows who is speaking.

 

Until your little writer gets to that level -use said. It blends into the background and forces you to show, not tell.

 

:iagree: What she said. ;)

 

P.S. "ejaculated" - :svengo: No character should ejaculate in any book of mine. :tongue_smilie:

[UnsinkableKristen]

This is how I feel about writers replacing the word "because" with "for".

 

As in "So-and-So jumped, for she had heard a very loud noise."

 

NO ONE talks like that. And in a casually written book that is talking about appletinis and club music, it sounds ridiculous.

[Tangerine]

There are several pinterest trends that make me crazy. Thanks for adding another. :D

[Coffeemama]

:confused:Should I not be instructing my IEW students that said is a banned word? My thinking is that if they get used to coming up with stronger vocabulary, later on when the word is no longer "banned" it won't get overused. Anyone agree with that?

 

ETA: This is now the second thing I'm reading that is causing me to rethink the benefits of IEW as a whole...

Edited November 4, 2011 by Coffeemama

[noashmam]

:confused:Should I not be instructing my IEW students that said is a banned word? My thinking is that if they get used to coming up with stronger vocabulary, later on when the word is no longer "banned" it won't get overused. Anyone agree with that?

 

I'm interested in this too. We use CW and beginning in Aesop one of the editing steps is to check for varied utterances. I guess "varied" is the point? I dunno.

[angela in ohio]

:confused:Should I not be instructing my IEW students that said is a banned word? My thinking is that if they get used to coming up with stronger vocabulary, later on when the word is no longer "banned" it won't get overused. Anyone agree with that?

 

 

That is absolutely correct. It is not banned forever; banning a word is a teaching technique that encourages them to at least think about language and word choice. It is unusual in this day of "just have them write a lot" to see actual instructional techniques, so it seems very different. My dc are now out the other end of years of IEW instruction and it worked brilliantly.

[Dana]

Stephen King's book On Writing is really good. He agrees with you on "said" and on adverbs.

 

For those of you looking for a book with some additional info on writing, this one is neat since at the end he includes a first draft of a chapter of his and his editing marks on it with an explanation of why he changed what he did.

[eaglei]

This is how I feel about writers replacing the word "because" with "for".

 

As in "So-and-So jumped, for she had heard a very loud noise."

 

NO ONE talks like that. And in a casually written book that is talking about appletinis and club music, it sounds ridiculous.

 

 

The highlighted part - may I beg to differ? I actually do know people who talk like this; it's part of who they are, not arrogance, not absurd, and not stilted language at all when flowing from their mouths - and it is a sheer joy to listen to them, and to carry on a conversation with them.:001_smile:

[nrg]

How does it hurt for a child to investigate all of the vocabulary that examines that way something can be said? I agree that there is usually no need to use "said" or any of its replacements in good dialogue writing, but how is a list a problem? It's lots of fun to try these words out by saying a sentence like, "Today is Friday," using the inflection and tone described by the "instead of said" word. Also, many of these words are used when adding the beat in the sentences following the quote.

Yes, I do use IEW. It opens little eyes. Then I stop using it and move on to better writing.

[Coffeemama]

That is absolutely correct. It is not banned forever; banning a word is a teaching technique that encourages them to at least think about language and word choice. It is unusual in this day of "just have them write a lot" to see actual instructional techniques, so it seems very different. My dc are now out the other end of years of IEW instruction and it worked brilliantly.

 

Thank you! May I ask how long your DC (or up to what age) they used IEW?

[angela in ohio]

Thank you! May I ask how long your DC (or up to what age) they used IEW?

 

I bought the TWSS and learned IEW when my girls were maybe 2nd and 4th graders (or a year earlier? -- it's a blur now.) I did 95% IEW from the TWSS (with some more education on my part by way of the 6+1 Traits and the Progym) up until two years ago. Somewhere in those years, they used the U.S. History I book, the Bible-based book, and the SWI-B because I taught them to others who wanted that and my dc sat in.

 

Then last year we did Elegant Essay (IEW) for the first half of the year and Elements of Syle and The Art of Styling Sentences for the last half of the year. At some point, we will use the high school materials, but right now they are taking a class I teach that is just "advanced high school writing" with no specific method other than an accumulation of what I have learned over the years and the Lively Art of Writing. I guess you could technically say they are still using IEW, because the methods influenced me.

 

And my little guy just started IEW with me this year. :001_smile:

[goldberry]

I'm voting with those who don't like "said" all the time. However...I only like other words used actually to contribute something, and not just because the author got tired of "said" or is trying to show off.

 

"Whispered" is valid to me, but "ejaculated" is not! I also hate words like "spat" that are really just impossible.

[Susan in TN]

:confused:Should I not be instructing my IEW students that said is a banned word? My thinking is that if they get used to coming up with stronger vocabulary, later on when the word is no longer "banned" it won't get overused. Anyone agree with that?

 

ETA: This is now the second thing I'm reading that is causing me to rethink the benefits of IEW as a whole...

 

I haven't used IEW myself, but if you read Stephen Lawhead's "Hood", you will totally believe that he has that stupid checklist in front of him and goes through it religiously for every sentence. I mean "steel tipped length of ash" is a pretty awkward way to restate "arrow" over and over again. :glare:

 

On the other hand, read Ivanhoe. For the life of me I couldn't tell you what makes the difference in their descriptive writing, but Sir Scott can do it - Lawhead can't.

Edited November 4, 2011 by Susan in TN

[Bluegoat]

I'm voting with those who don't like "said" all the time. However...I only like other words used actually to contribute something, and not just because the author got tired of "said" or is trying to show off.

 

"Whispered" is valid to me, but "ejaculated" is not! I also hate words like "spat" that are really just impossible.

 

I don't know. I hate reading stuff that sounds like the writer was trying to get his money's worth from his thesaurus (Harry Potter comes to mind), but I also think that thoughtful use of different words can make the scene being described richer.

 

Making rules like this absolute would mean saying all of the great Victorian literature is bad. It isn't - it is just stylistically different . Some is bad and that tends to be terribly dense, obscure, pompous, and wordy.

 

I'm sure in a hundred years people will look at our writing and appreciate the good stuff, but point out how the bad stuff seems flat, colourless, and linguistically impoverished.

[Bluegoat]

I haven't used IEW myself, but if you read Stephen Lawhead's "Hood", you will totally believe that he has that stupid checklist in front of him and goes through it religiously for every sentence. I mean "metal tipped length of ash" is a pretty awkward way to restate "arrow" over and over again. :glare:

 

One group who really likes to use these kinds of descriptors, to facinating but horrific effect, is romance novel writers.

[eaglei]

I'm voting with those who don't like "said" all the time. However...I only like other words used actually to contribute something, and not just because the author got tired of "said" or is trying to show off.

 

:iagree::iagree:

The choice of word should contribute to the writing, the character, the scene.

It should be the persons' *style* (the writers and the characters) and not *put-on* or show-offy.

[eaglei]

I also think that thoughtful use of different words can make the scene being described richer.

 

:iagree:

 

Making rules like this absolute would mean saying all of the great Victorian literature is bad. It isn't - it is just stylistically different . Some is bad and that tends to be terribly dense, obscure, pompous, and wordy.

 

Good point.

 

I'm sure in a hundred years people will look at our writing and appreciate the good stuff, but point out how the bad stuff seems flat, colourless, and linguistically impoverished.

 

"Linguistically impoverished" --- I like this description - it is spot-on.

[Runningmom80]

This is one reason that this forum bugs me. There is such a condescending tone to most of the posts.

 

 

Who cares? Seriously, it's a word. It's CREATIVE writing. Should we just use primary colors when we paint, because who needs magenta when you have red?

 

 

Love Amber, who has a BA in creative writing burried somewhere in her office, and who is probably now banned from the well trained mind forums. :lol:

[Dana]

One group who really likes to use these kinds of descriptors, to facinating but horrific effect, is romance novel writers.

 

:lol:

 

I think it has changed over the years though. Looking back at some romances from the early 90s to now (especially if you can read the same author) you can really see the style changes.

 

And the number of ways to avoid saying certain words is pretty amazing.

[LibraryLover]

One (main) reason I so detested reading aloud The Magic Treehouse books was because of the mind-numbing overuse of 'said'. :smash: Jack said, then Annie said, and they both said! Said Said Said. :sleep:

 

If a group of 3 is under an invisability cloak, say ;), whispering is of utmost importance.

Edited November 4, 2011 by LibraryLover

[eaglei]

It's CREATIVE writing. Should we just use primary colors when we paint, because who needs magenta when you have red?

 

:iagree:

Good analogy.

[Guest submarines]

One (main) reason I so detested reading aloud The Magic Treehouse books was because of the mind-numbing overuse of 'said'. :smash: Jack said, then Annie said, and they both said! Said Said Said. :sleep:

 

If a group of 3 is under an invisability cloak, say ;), whispering is of utmost importance.

 

Magic Treehouse books are designed to be first readers, not read alouds. One is supposed to almost skip over the dialogue tags when reading fluenty. They should be invisible. The intonation of the speakers should be inferred from what and how they are saying it, and other details. This all goes back to "show vs. tell." Dialogue tags other than "said" are "tell." Good writers will "show" instead.

 

That's the whole point.

 

But again, Magic Treehouse is a typical first reader, not an example of great literature to emulate.

[Bluegoat]

Magic Treehouse books are designed to be first readers, not read alouds. One is supposed to almost skip over the dialogue tags when reading fluenty. They should be invisible. The intonation of the speakers should be inferred from what and how they are saying it, and other details. This all goes back to "show vs. tell." Dialogue tags other than "said" are "tell." Good writers will "show" instead.

 

That's the whole point.

 

But again, Magic Treehouse is a typical first reader, not an example of great literature to emulate.

 

Insisting on that is cutting out a lot of great literature.

[Crissy]

This is how I feel about writers replacing the word "because" with "for".

 

As in "So-and-So jumped, for she had heard a very loud noise."

 

NO ONE talks like that. And in a casually written book that is talking about appletinis and club music, it sounds ridiculous.

 

My aunt spoke like that. Only she pronounced it 'fer'. :001_huh:

Edited November 4, 2011 by Crissy

[justamouse]

One group who really likes to use these kinds of descriptors, to facinating but horrific effect, is romance novel writers.

 

Nope. You won't find it in romances. Perhaps in the 80s, but nope, no more.

[justamouse]

Insisting on that is cutting out a lot of great literature.

 

If you applied today's rules to yesterday's classics, it'd be wretched.

 

But I firmly believe that descriptors are lazy writing. You should be showing that word, not telling it, and, it's probably re-emphasizing something you've already done/said, which makes it redundant.

 

Are there times when one is needed? Absolutely. But those times are far and few between.

Edited November 5, 2011 by justamouse

[cin]

:iagree: What she said. ;)

 

P.S. "ejaculated" - :svengo: No character should ejaculate in any book of mine. :tongue_smilie:

 

:smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:

 

And now to go clean the Dr. Pepper off the screen and keyboard....

 

 

And start searching pinterest to find out what the heck y'all are talking about!

Edited November 5, 2011 by cin

[Ginevra]

This is one reason that this forum bugs me. There is such a condescending tone to most of the posts.

 

 

Who cares? Seriously, it's a word. It's CREATIVE writing. Should we just use primary colors when we paint, because who needs magenta when you have red?

 

 

Love Amber, who has a BA in creative writing burried somewhere in her office, and who is probably now banned from the well trained mind forums. :lol:

 

:chillpill:

 

Maybe it's your filter.