Just the Messenger...You Can Drink Alchohol While Pregnant.

[Mom in High Heels]

You may be unsurprised to learn that I would expose neither babies nor developing fetuses to caffeine.

 

Bill

 

Since you can't be pregnant though, you don't really know what you would or wouldn't expose a fetus to.

[WishboneDawn]

 

I'm skeptical of the science here regarding alcohol not being absorbed into the blood-stream.

 

:confused:I think at this point you're the only one repeating that claim.

[WishboneDawn]

I have to chime in here. This is a subject that I am extremely passionate about. My youngest son has FASD. I wouldn't wish his disability on my worst enemy.

 

There is NO SAFE AMOUNT OF ALCOHOL during pregnancy. This one study doesn't prove anything. There are so many factors involved when a fetus is exposed to alcohol. It depends on the time of pregnancy (what is developing), the mother's metabolism, etc.

 

Would you give your newborn baby a glass of wine once in a while? Alcohol passes through the placenta...there is very little barrier. Why risk it? Especially when there is a possibility that your child could wind up PERMANENTLY brain damaged.

 

I will fight this issue to the death because my child was exposed to alcohol by his birth mother. We have no idea how much she drank....but whatever amount it was, was enough to damage his brain for life. Please please do NOT drink even one drink if you're pregnant.

 

The links to more then one study are posted in this thread. Those studies are not contradictory to what other studies have shown as the other studies have dealt with quantities of alcohol much larger then the 1-2 drinks per week we're talking about.

 

This thread needs to be read in it's entirety so people can look at the research and see that often, their points have been dealt with several times.

[Ginevra]

 

And I think a heavy burden falls to the protection of a dependent life from potential harm over the desire for a drink on the part of a mother.

 

Bill

 

:iagree: I never cared enough about alcohol to gamble with what was an "okay" amount. I am not a teetotaler in my everyday life, but while pregnant, I avoided anything that had no medical benefit but could have a harmful effect.

 

I have to chime in here. This is a subject that I am extremely passionate about. My youngest son has FASD. I wouldn't wish his disability on my worst enemy.

 

There is NO SAFE AMOUNT OF ALCOHOL during pregnancy. This one study doesn't prove anything. There are so many factors involved when a fetus is exposed to alcohol. It depends on the time of pregnancy (what is developing), the mother's metabolism, etc.

 

Would you give your newborn baby a glass of wine once in a while? Alcohol passes through the placenta...there is very little barrier. Why risk it? Especially when there is a possibility that your child could wind up PERMANENTLY brain damaged.

 

I will fight this issue to the death because my child was exposed to alcohol by his birth mother. We have no idea how much she drank....but whatever amount it was, was enough to damage his brain for life. Please please do NOT drink even one drink if you're pregnant.

 

This was always my take on it. And I am so sorry your child was damaged. :grouphug:

[WishboneDawn]

From the NOFAS website:

 

How much is too much?

FASD does not just occur in children of mothers who abuse alcohol or are heavy drinkers. The latest research shows that as little as two drinks in early pregnancy or four drinks all at once (a binge episode) can kill developing brain cells.

Many people believe an "occasional" drink during pregnancy is safe. However, the alcohol content in a 12 oz. beer equals that in a 5 oz. glass of wine or a 1.5 oz shot of liquor. An "occasional" drink such as a Long Island Ice Tea actually contains the alcohol equivalency of four to five drinks. For that reason, no amount of alcohol is considered safe for a pregnant woman.

Fathers, friends and family members all have important roles to play in promoting an alcohol-free pregnancy. They can:

 

• Encourage and support the woman's decision to avoid alcohol
  
• Avoid situations where alcohol is present
  
• Make sure non-alcoholic options are available
  
• Stop drinking as well
  
• Go to medical check-ups to find out more about FASD.
  

 

Study on low levels of alcohol:

 

http://www.come-over.to/FAS/LowDose.htm

 

Thank you for sharing that. THAT kind of info I can use.

 

It's an interesting study. It doesn't contradict the others I've posted. I also noted one I've seen mentioned (but could not find the actual study) that associated low levels with children being in a little lower range, but within the norm, of the growth charts. The long term study that I've mentioned several times here shows no effects on cognitive abilities measured and even a positive association, although the authors don't claim the alcohol is a cause for that piece of the result. The Australian studies show no effect.

 

I think the frustrating thing for me about the study you linked to is that I don't know how to translate the results. The bottom line for the authors is that there's a behavioural difference between kids who's mother abstained and those who's mother drank low levels of alcohol but they established this with a test. I'm not sure what that or what the margins of difference mean. I do know the test is generally used for screening children for diagnoses, but not for diagnostic purposes.

 

The sample of women used is a little troubling as there were a significant number of smokers and illicit drug users. No doubt that was considered and dealt with in the results by the researchers but it would be interesting to see more studies with a more representative sample of women.

 

What the study does show is that low levels may have an effect. What it does not show is that low levels carry any risk of FASD.

 

There's an issue here of personal comfort. If yours lies on a different side of the line then mine, I'm fine with that. If you wouldn't drink at all while pregnant, I respect that. But considering the evidence, I'm quite comfortable thinking that the amount of alcohol I've had while pregnant is not going to cause FASD in my child.

 

I also reject the notion that promoting the idea the even one drink is harmful is a good strategy. It relies on not letting women balance the science and the risks involved for themselves and often results in guilt that most certainly shape parenting and affect a kid adversely.

 

I'll be looking for more information on this issue. Thank you for the link.

 

BTW - I keep wondering if some folks think knowing this means I and the other pregnant ladies will be downing shots from now until the baby's birth? Honestly, I haven't even had that Bailey's I claimed I was going to have. Too tired to bother these days. :D

[WishboneDawn]

:iagree: I never cared enough about alcohol to gamble with what was an "okay" amount. I am not a teetotaler in my everyday life, but while pregnant, I avoided anything that had no medical benefit but could have a harmful effect.

 

I think that's fair.

 

I don't think the conclusion being reached by some women here though that an occasional drink is not a problem is unreasonable though.

 

ETA: I do have to say that I don't think we're honest with risk in on this side of the pond. We glare at pregnant women taking a drink of wine but, as has been pointed out, think nothing of the pregnant woman driving to the grocery store which is a MUCH riskier behavior. When I go up and down my stairs I'm engaging in riskier behavior.

Edited September 25, 2011 by WishboneDawn

[TravelingChris]

I have a totally different perspective on this. My youngest is nearing 15, so it has been a long time since I was pregnant and I won't be again. Posters are arguing over whether light drinking a few times a week is dangerous or not. Like the studies, I portend that it not only is not dangerous, but probably beneficial. Why and to who? The mother and in relation, the fetus. Blood clots are a known danger in pregnancy. Alcohol is a known blood thinner. I now know that I had at least one blood clot in my third pregnancy. How has it damaged my youngest? I am not really sure but she has had the worse history of getting sick of my three kids and also was my smallest baby. She got sick within two days of birth for the first time. I don't know what that blood clot of mine did but I think the thicker blood of mine wasn't providing as much nutrition to her. Oh and I didn't drink knowingly at all during any of my pregnancies- but still got two ADHD children (and the one with the worse adhd I know I didn't even drink in early pregnancy since I was sick at the time).

[twoforjoy]

I am not a teetotaler in my everyday life, but while pregnant, I avoided anything that had no medical benefit but could have a harmful effect.

 

Did you avoid driving? I tend to think that, unless you were locked in a padded room, you couldn't have avoided everything that could have harmed your fetus during a pregnancy.

 

I hate to harp on the driving thing, but driving is probably the most dangerous thing any of us do all day, and yet we think nothing of it. People who are terrified of the idea of letting their child walk one block alone have no problem driving their child all over creation. People who wouldn't so much as look at a diet soda during pregnancy don't limit their driving to avoid the possibility of an accident.

 

We all make choices, and we all weigh things differently. I very, very rarely drink when pregnant (I knowingly drank one time with my first, once with my second, and never with my third, and each time it was well into the second trimester and involved one small drink). But, I have no problem taking the occasional OTC pain reliever. I'm not going to throw stones at other women for doing things for which no risk has ever been demonstrated.

[pfamilygal]

When I had preterm labor, my perinatalogist recommended a glass of wine and a warm bath to see if the ctx would slow/stop. :001_smile:

[TXBeth]

Two, if I would not give a drink of alcohol or a caffeine-laden drink to a baby (and I would not) why would I support exposing them to these drugs in utero?

 

Bill

 

This doesn't really make sense. I wouldn't give an infant broccoli, juice, mashed potatoes, cow milk, or spaghettios either. Does that mean pregnant women should abstain from all these things...and everything else except formula or breastmilk?

 

Then again...I have no problem giving my 2-year-old a sip of my coffee or my 5-year-old a sip of wine (although I wouldn't do that one because DH wouldn't agree), so we may be coming from vastly different perspectives.

[deacongirl]

My MIL had my dh 7 weeks early, and yes, they did try to stop labor by giving her what she calls "basically Everclear." :001_huh: In her case it did not work, and she ended up laboring drunk (again, :001_huh:), but I had NEVER heard of this before or after hearing her labor story until tonight. Learn something new every day! :001_smile:

 

Yes. My mom (incompetent cervix and pre-term labor) was advised by her OB to have a glass of wine every night b/c it would relax her uterus, and he wanted to avoid having her in the hospital on an alcohol IV.

[simka2]

I have a totally different perspective on this. My youngest is nearing 15, so it has been a long time since I was pregnant and I won't be again. Posters are arguing over whether light drinking a few times a week is dangerous or not. Like the studies, I portend that it not only is not dangerous, but probably beneficial. Why and to who? The mother and in relation, the fetus. Blood clots are a known danger in pregnancy. Alcohol is a known blood thinner. I now know that I had at least one blood clot in my third pregnancy. How has it damaged my youngest? I am not really sure but she has had the worse history of getting sick of my three kids and also was my smallest baby. She got sick within two days of birth for the first time. I don't know what that blood clot of mine did but I think the thicker blood of mine wasn't providing as much nutrition to her. Oh and I didn't drink knowingly at all during any of my pregnancies- but still got two ADHD children (and the one with the worse adhd I know I didn't even drink in early pregnancy since I was sick at the time).

:iagree: I am a firm believer that we have forgotten the wonderful medicinal properties of wine in particular, and alcohol in general.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Did you avoid driving? I tend to think that, unless you were locked in a padded room, you couldn't have avoided everything that could have harmed your fetus during a pregnancy.

 

I hate to harp on the driving thing, but driving is probably the most dangerous thing any of us do all day, and yet we think nothing of it. People who are terrified of the idea of letting their child walk one block alone have no problem driving their child all over creation. People who wouldn't so much as look at a diet soda during pregnancy don't limit their driving to avoid the possibility of an accident.

 

We all make choices, and we all weigh things differently. I very, very rarely drink when pregnant (I knowingly drank one time with my first, once with my second, and never with my third, and each time it was well into the second trimester and involved one small drink). But, I have no problem taking the occasional OTC pain reliever. I'm not going to throw stones at other women for doing things for which no risk has ever been demonstrated.

 

I honestly don't understand why you care if SHE PERSONALLY doesn't want to take the risk of drinking. Her decision doesn't affect what you do, does it? If you are really comfortable drinking on occasion with your pregnancy, you should not have to prove that someone who doesn't want to is somehow illogical or is taking risk in other behaviors.

[Rivka]

That's part of Twoforjoy's larger point too. That when we're presented with messages about what to do during pregnancy, we're not presented with the actual science, we're given a managed message meant to sway the least trustworthy of us. In effect, we're all treated like the least trustworthy ones, like children to be scared into good behaviour.

 

:iagree: I obediently abstained from sushi all through my first pregnancy, even though I love it and it's incredibly healthy. Then I read the research more closely and found that virtually every case of illness from raw seafood comes from clams and oysters. Sushi that has been properly prepared by a sushi chef is completely safe from a food-borne illness perspective - and it's probably much, much less likely to cause food poisoning than a fast food hamburger.

 

I did research mercury levels in different kinds of fish. I abstained from high-mercury fish (tuna, yellowtail, and mackerel are the big three for sushi fish) from the time I started trying to conceive until I dropped down to only breastfeeding once or twice a day. But other than that, I ate sushi straight through pregnancy.

 

Japanese women are trusted to understand the difference between raw oysters and raw salmon, and proper vs. improper fish preparation. Why aren't American women?

 

And there are the women who have a child with ADD or some other disability and forever carry guilt, wondering if that drink of rum at Christmas caused it. And that guilt can have long term and damaging effects on both mom and child.

 

YES. My oldest sister was born with a severe gastroschesis (her stomach was outside her body), and I had multiple orthopedic birth defects. When I was a teenager, my mother said to me, "You know, when I was pregnant women weren't told to avoid caffeine, and I had a cup or two of tea every day." I was horrified to think that she was carrying around that burden of guilt, thinking that a cup or two of tea might have caused serious birth defects in her children. That's what the scare tactics do.

 

I chose not to drink alcohol or caffeine in the first trimester. After the first trimester, I had a cup of tea every day and a half-glass of wine on three or four occasions. I am confident that I didn't put my babies at risk at all.

[Jenny in Florida]

Does that mean that if a mother is having a cappuccino, the baby is having one, too? Even though research has found that moderate intake of caffeine is not harmful to the fetus, should pregnant women abstain from caffeine, since they wouldn't give their baby a latte?

 

I did.

 

I don't drink, anyway, meaning that the question of whether I could drink alcohol while pregnant wasn't an issue.

 

However, I do love my coffee and diet soda. Because it felt safest to me, I quit drinking both while I was pregnant with my daughter. I also stopped taking any over-the-counter medications with the exception of small doses of tylenol when I had especially awful headaches. And I got rid of all of the artificial sweeteners in the house.

 

By the time I was in my last trimester with my son, I began allowing myself one caffiene-free diet soda a day. But that was it.

 

Here's the thing: I'm sure everyone is right. I'm certain that very moderate alcohol intake during the third and maybe second trimesters does no significant harm to a baby. But I'm mindful of the fact that there are many things women have been assured were "safe" that turned out to be less than so. And my common sense tells me that imbibing substances I'm pretty sure aren't all that healthy for anyone is probably not a great idea when a tiny, new being is going through such an imporant developmental phase. For me, I felt that I took on the responsibility of doing my absolute level best for that child the second I chose to get pregnant. Giving up a few comforts and habits for the year or two it took to carry and nurse each one seemed like a really small sacrifice for me.

[Jenny in Florida]

Also, again--drugs used in labor are not without risk either. These include some very potent narcotics. I'm far more leery of being given a large dose of a drug that acts primarily upon the neurological system during labor, than I am a few small drinks of alcohol per week. Especially since the alcohol is taken by mouth, and isn't directly absorbed into the blood stream the way IV meds are.

 

Just so that I don't get accused of hypocrisy, here, I'll mention that I did labor without drugs, too.

 

Also, since the parallel with driving has been mentioned, I will say that wasn't an issue we had to face. At the time I was carrying both of my kids, we were living a car-free lifestyle. I don't think I would have put a ban on driving, even if had been otherwise, but I do think I would have made more careful choices about when it was really necessary to get in a car.

 

Interesting story: When I was pregnant with my daughter, I was having some health issues that resulted in me getting light-headed and fainting on a semi-regular basis. Finally, my OB insisted I go out on maternity leave early. His primary concern was that I was travelling an hour into work each day (public transportation), and he worried that I would put myself and the baby at risk if I fainted during the trip.

 

So, yes, even transportation was deemed to be an unsafe risk while I was pregant.

[Aelwydd]

Just so that I don't get accused of hypocrisy, here, I'll mention that I did labor without drugs, too.

 

 

 

Yeah, so did I. I did it without so much as an IV. I did it with an 8 lb baby, as a 5'3" woman.

 

Guess what? It doesn't matter. I still consider drugs during labor and delivery an acceptable choice, and "safe" for most women and their babies. Because that is what the evidence says right now.

 

In the same way, the body of evidence shows that drinking heavily in pregnancy poses a significant risk of FAS. It does not show the same for very limited drinking.

 

Once again, I am done with this judgmental, patronizing attitude towards pregnant women, that wags the finger and says, "Shame! Shame on you for daring to choose anything you enjoy, or makes you more comfortable, because it might harm your baby!"

[Ginevra]

I think that's fair.

 

I don't think the conclusion being reached by some women here though that an occasional drink is not a problem is unreasonable though.

 

ETA: I do have to say that I don't think we're honest with risk in on this side of the pond. We glare at pregnant women taking a drink of wine but, as has been pointed out, think nothing of the pregnant woman driving to the grocery store which is a MUCH riskier behavior. When I go up and down my stairs I'm engaging in riskier behavior.

 

I don't either. But I would never propose to urge someone to have a drink if it makes no difference to them anyhow.

 

Did you avoid driving? I tend to think that, unless you were locked in a padded room, you couldn't have avoided everything that could have harmed your fetus during a pregnancy.

 

I hate to harp on the driving thing, but driving is probably the most dangerous thing any of us do all day, and yet we think nothing of it. People who are terrified of the idea of letting their child walk one block alone have no problem driving their child all over creation. People who wouldn't so much as look at a diet soda during pregnancy don't limit their driving to avoid the possibility of an accident.

 

We all make choices, and we all weigh things differently. I very, very rarely drink when pregnant (I knowingly drank one time with my first, once with my second, and never with my third, and each time it was well into the second trimester and involved one small drink). But, I have no problem taking the occasional OTC pain reliever. I'm not going to throw stones at other women for doing things for which no risk has ever been demonstrated.

 

Naturally, we all make choices daily; there is a cost/benefit element to be weighed for practically anything we eat, breathe or do. For my last pregnancy, I took a drug every day because the benefit (reducing the likelihood of a placental abruption) outweighed the cost (potential harm from the drug), so really, whether or not to crack open the Reisling was far from my biggest concern. ;) But WRT drinking alcohol - here was something that I did not need to do that could have a negative effect on my baby. My kid already had a strike against him, dependent on my screwed-up blood supply; why ask for further trouble?

 

Of course I did not/do not abstain from driving. It is next to impossible to get anywhere from where I live without a car. This is a risk I clearly cannot avoid, unless we move or we live like hermits. Obviously, none of us can clear our lives of all risk. The question comes down to what risks will you be comfortable with in order to obtain the benefit? For me, drinking alcohol held no benefit that was worth the possibility that there could be damage. I didn't drink while nursing, either, not even to "pump and dump." It simply had no appeal to me to try and calculate when my milk would have returned to alcohol-free and I could see no point in the possibility of harm.

[ktgrok]

For those saying, but it is like giving a baby a glass of wine, no it isn't. It is diluted down in your adult body size. It means your baby is as drunk as you are. If a half glass or glass of wine doesn't leave you feeling tipsy, neither is your baby. It would be the equivalent of giving a baby a dropperful of wine, the amount an orthodox baby might get at communion. no biggie.

[Spy Car]

For those saying, but it is like giving a baby a glass of wine, no it isn't. It is diluted down in your adult body size. It means your baby is as drunk as you are. If a half glass or glass of wine doesn't leave you feeling tipsy, neither is your baby. It would be the equivalent of giving a baby a dropperful of wine, the amount an orthodox baby might get at communion. no biggie.

 

Which means if you are feeling a mild buzz, then your developing fetus is feeling a mild buzz too.

 

I'm sorry if anyone things it is judgmental but I think getting a fetus buzzed is a very poor idea.

 

Bill

[dirty ethel rackham]

But that's true of people, period, not just Americans.

 

I think the difference is that we have a very infantilizing medical system, and our doctors treat women like idiots rather than responsible adults

:iagree:

When I was pg with dd11, I was having lots of contractions at 35 weeks (like every 5 minutes.) My midwife told me to drink a liter of water, have some herbal tea, get in the tub and have a 2 oz. glass of wine. If the contractions did not abate, I would have to go to the hospital. When I was relating this to a friend, a doctor overheard me and read me the riot act about drinking during pregnancy (and getting in the tub ... Huh?) Of course, she saw nothing wrong with all the drugs they would have pumped in me had I gone to the hospital - drugs that have not been proven to be effective at stopping labor, nor the drugs for labor pain. Go figure.

 

 

... and so they think that, 'Oh, if we tell those stupid women they can have one or two drinks, they'll go out and get drunk every night, so let's just tell them it's not allowed at all.'

While I am okay with moderation in general, unfortunately, there are lots of stupid women (or those struggling with addiction) who would take that as permission to get hammered.

[ktgrok]

Which means if you are feeling a mild buzz, then your developing fetus is feeling a mild buzz too.

 

I'm sorry if anyone things it is judgmental but I think getting a fetus buzzed is a very poor idea.

 

Bill

 

Well, a half glass or so of wine, the amount i drink in pregnancy, doesn't give me a buzz.

 

And anecdotally, I accidentally took a xanax in pregnancy, a pretty darned high dose (I mistook it for another pill) and my mother swears my daughter's mellow personality if from that. :lol:

[Impish]

But I'm mindful of the fact that there are many things women have been assured were "safe" that turned out to be less than so.

Thalidomide, anyone?

[Jenny in Florida]

Yeah, so did I. I did it without so much as an IV. I did it with an 8 lb baby, as a 5'3" woman.

 

Guess what? It doesn't matter. I still consider drugs during labor and delivery an acceptable choice, and "safe" for most women and their babies. Because that is what the evidence says right now.

 

In the same way, the body of evidence shows that drinking heavily in pregnancy poses a significant risk of FAS. It does not show the same for very limited drinking.

 

Once again, I am done with this judgmental, patronizing attitude towards pregnant women, that wags the finger and says, "Shame! Shame on you for daring to choose anything you enjoy, or makes you more comfortable, because it might harm your baby!"

 

I honestly didn't intend to inflict either judgement or shame. I promise! And I apologize if it sounded that way at all.

 

I was just responding to the comments that seemed to suggest that women who choose not to drink during pregnancy are somehow hypocrites, because the assumption is that we do all of these other things. In reality, while I am not and have never claimed to be perfect in any way, in my case I did make conscious choices to avoid many of the things these comments seem to take for granted.

 

As I said at least once, I'm sure the folks who are arguing the other side are right, as far as current medical science can judge. If they, after doing research on the question, thoughtfully make a choice that aligns with the current research, more power to them. But there are those of us who make the opposite choices, not out of fear, but in exactly as reasoned and careful and thoughtful a way. And there are those of us who try very hard to be consistent in our choices and won't get "tripped up" in a discussion by generalizations and assumptions.

 

Again, I apologize if anything I said sounded like I was tsk-tsk-ing anyone. I was just sharing my feelings, thoughts and experiences.

[Aelwydd]

Obviously no one would argue there are no risks to drinking alcohol (in quantity) during pregnancy—as the results are well-proven to be harmful.

 

Yes, the results of too much alcohol are well-established to be harmful. I'm not debating that. I'm debating whether such evidence should be applied to very limited drinking. People argue that too much of anything is bad, so one must embrace complete abstinence. I find that attitude too extreme.

 

I am unconvinced that light drinking isn't harmful as well. And that is the chance I would not want to take.[/Quote]That's fine, and you're not alone in that opinion. However, there isn't enough evidence established to say such a belief is rooted in scientific study. So, all I ask is that others refrain from claiming science to support their judgment of my choices, when such scientific evidence does not exist.

 

 

I'm rather risk-averse when it comes to a life that is dependent on me (or my like-minded wife) for its future well-being.[/Quote]And that's fine, too. I have some friends who are likewise very risk-averse. It doesn't make me think any less of you or them for having that mindset. There are some risks I am not comfortable with at all, as well.

 

 

Yep. I would avoid mercury, lead and other toxic heavy-metals and hot tubs along with drugs.[/Quote]But a lot of pregnant women don't or can't. Especially in places like Japan, where a good part of their diet is based upon fish. I think that moderation is key.

 

 

I'm skeptical of the science here regarding alcohol not being absorbed into the blood-stream. I'm no authority on the drugs used in labor and delivery. But unlike alcohol and caffeine, these drugs have a medical purpose in suppressing pain, where if one is "suppressing pain" with alcohol one has a serious problem.[/Quote]I already shared that I used minute amounts of alcohol to settle my stomach in early pregnancy. Crackers and other remedies were useless. I started out pregnant at 123 lbs (at 5'3") and within 6 weeks had dropped 6 lbs. If the alcohol hadn't worked, I would have been on much stronger meds, and possibly hospitalization, since my sickness didn't abate completely abate until 26 weeks gestation. The wine I sipped took the edge off and kept my puking to once a day, rather than the 8 and 10 times I had been hurling.

 

Also, I would argue that just because I was pregnant, shouldn't mean that I should have to live a completely joyless, comfortless existence because I was gestating. Yes, I took caution. Yes, I didn't engage in high-risk behavior. Key word there is high-risk.

 

Alcohol has some risk to it. But so does eating high sugary foods (which many pregnant women do), and I'd argue that there's far more cases of gestational diabetes and pre-eclampsia out there, which are related to nutritional issues much of the time, than there are cases of FAS. Yet, I'm not going to deny myself a cupcake or two during pregnancy, just to satisfy the nervous folks who say, well, too much can harm the baby.

 

Yes, too much of many things can harm you or your unborn baby. That doesn't mean that I should be expected to completely abstain just to avoid being considered selfish or foolish. Frankly, I find many of these attitudes toward pregnant women to be paternalistic and misogynist.

 

I lack sufficient knowledge to comment. If a drug like pitocin is causing harm (and I don't know that it is, or is not) then it would be common sense to try to eliminate or reduce its use. Right?[/Quote]Bill, don't take this personal, but your statement made me laugh. ACOG is the parenting body for most of practicing obstetrics in the US. Trust me when I tell you, a significant portion of their recommended practices have caused and continue to cause, harm to women and their babies. Not all of them, not every doctor. But, if you want a starting point, you should google "cytotec" also known as "misoprostol" sometime, and see what you turn up.

 

Suffice it to say, pitocin can cause great harm, especially in too large amounts. It can lead to fetal distress, fetal hypoxia, fetal injury and demise, maternal hemorrhage, hysterectomy, and uterine rupture.

 

However, it also can be extremely useful. It can actually jump start a stalled labor, augment weak contractions, and help stop bleeding.

 

Again, the key here is how and when and in what amounts it is used. All drugs are potentially harmful. All of them. However, considered use of them, in moderation, can produce many benefits, while minimizing risk.

 

I agree that it makes no sense to target one harmful drug but give a free pass to another. That is my position.[/Quote]I agree. I don't believe that unlimited amounts of any chemical or drug are a good idea.

 

I support the right of those who don't think its right or well reasoned to unnecessarily expose developing embryo-fetuses in the womb to have a difference of opinion with those who do.

 

And I think a heavy burden falls to the protection of a dependent life from potential harm over the desire for a drink on the part of a mother.

 

Bill[/Quote]Yes, I understand. However, I hope you can understand that there are many of us who consider our emotional need for a way to relax, let go of stress, calm morning sickness, a not-insignificant matter of maternal health. But, I'm also ardently pro-choice, and so I don't consider that when a woman turns up pregnant, she automatically should cede any personal desires.

 

It may not seem like a big thing to you, Bill, but if you had experienced a pregnancy such as I had (a miserable affair), sometimes a "desire for a drink" is the only thing that keeps you feeling human, and not as some walking incubator for a fetus.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Aelwydd

[8circles]

Which means if you are feeling a mild buzz, then your developing fetus is feeling a mild buzz too.

 

I'm sorry if anyone things it is judgmental but I think getting a fetus buzzed is a very poor idea.

 

Bill

 

Not directly at you, Bill, it was just easy to quote you.

 

I just think this is one of those situations (most of them are, though) where each person's situation is different. I've had a drink while pregnant once or twice during each pregnancy. I haven't felt anything - no buzz, nothing. I don't consider that to have been risky behavior. I also continued with my daily caffienated coffee - all of my OB's said one cup a day was not risky at all.

 

But this fits how I live my life overall. I've let each one of my kids have a taste of my glass of wine (which I drink once or twice a year). The youngest who asked was about 3, I think. I also allow my kids to taste my coffee when they ask which happens a couple times a month. I don't see any of this as risky, selfish, irresponsible, or anything else that has been mentioned here. I'm comfortable with my assumed level of risk. Anyone is free to judge me or say negative things about me - it doesn't bother me because I'm OK with my choices.

[littleWMN]

I have to chime in here. This is a subject that I am extremely passionate about. My youngest son has FASD. I wouldn't wish his disability on my worst enemy.

 

There is NO SAFE AMOUNT OF ALCOHOL during pregnancy. This one study doesn't prove anything. There are so many factors involved when a fetus is exposed to alcohol. It depends on the time of pregnancy (what is developing), the mother's metabolism, etc.

 

Would you give your newborn baby a glass of wine once in a while? Alcohol passes through the placenta...there is very little barrier. Why risk it? Especially when there is a possibility that your child could wind up PERMANENTLY brain damaged.

 

I will fight this issue to the death because my child was exposed to alcohol by his birth mother. We have no idea how much she drank....but whatever amount it was, was enough to damage his brain for life. Please please do NOT drink even one drink if you're pregnant.

 

:iagree:

[Aelwydd]

I honestly didn't intend to inflict either judgement or shame. I promise! And I apologize if it sounded that way at all.

 

I was just responding to the comments that seemed to suggest that women who choose not to drink during pregnancy are somehow hypocrites, because the assumption is that we do all of these other things. In reality, while I am not and have never claimed to be perfect in any way, in my case I did make conscious choices to avoid many of the things these comments seem to take for granted.

 

 

 

Again, I apologize if anything I said sounded like I was tsk-tsk-ing anyone. I was just sharing my feelings, thoughts and experiences.

 

The way I took your post was, "Yes, it's true L&D drugs can have risks, but I didn't have those either." Implying that women who choose pain-relief during L&D are, again, on the losing side of this debate, because they aren't going with the least risky option.

 

I appreciate that you clarified, because this is a sensitive subject for me. I brought up the L&D drugs analogy earlier in the thread because the same logic that some used to condemn that choice, has been used against those women who choose to drink lightly in pregnancy.

 

I don't look down on you or think poorly of you, if you choose to abstain. It's not women who choose to abstain who are being judged on this thread though. It's those who do choose to drink lightly. The message that has been repeated over and over seems to me, to be "Well, you're gestating another human. And, so you shouldn't indulge any needs or desires of your own, that might have even the slightest risk."

 

I think of pregnant women's needs as being just as important, and even more important at times, than the fetus'. That's a terrible thing to some people ("how selfish!"). But, that's what I'm defending here.

[LucyStoner]

 

Translation: we cannot tell pregnant women that it is safe to have one drink, because someone might pour 5 shots into a single glass and call it "one drink."

 

:001_huh:

 

because pregnant women are too dumb to distinguish from a big mixed drink and a 1/2 glass of wine?

 

1/2 of pregnancies are unplanned. Many women drink before they know they are pregnant. Should all women who are not sterile and who are sexually active never drink anything? Talk about controlling women.

 

FAS is a big deal. We distract from the real risks and issues when we decide to chastise any woman who does not buy the a drop is too much line. The risk is concentrated in moderate to heavy regular drinking in the first trimester.

[littleWMN]

One, I'm not convinced that there is sufficient proof that exposure drugs such as alcohol and caffeine don't impact developing fetuses.

 

Two, if I would not give a drink of alcohol or a caffeine-laden drink to a baby (and I would not) why would I support exposing them to these drugs in utero?

 

I don't think this has anything to do with "superstition" so much as having common sense.

It is not a risk I would want to take.

 

Bill

 

Amen!

[mykdsmomy]

For the sake of my blood pressure, I need to bow out of this thread. There are no studies proving that any amount of alcohol is safe during pregnancy.

 

FASD is considered an "invisible" disability. There are many people walking around undiagnosed who are on the FASD spectrum. Our jails are filled with men and women who were prenatally exposed to alcohol (some stats show as much as 70%).

 

As far as these arguments:

 

*I wouldn't give my newborn mashed potatoes either- well, that is not going to cause life long brain damage to your child.

 

*Other drugs (prescription) can be harmful as well. - True, but alcohol has shown to be more damaging than most drugs (including non prescription like heroin and meth)

 

*The guidelines are put in place for women who wouldn't stop after one drink - No, there is just no known safe amount.

 

 

We are talking life long irreversible brain damage. Yes I realize I sound judgmental and no, I don't care. My son (and many of my friends children) suffer DAILY from their mother's choice. If you spent one day with my son, you would probably feel the same was as I do. Alcohol ruined my son's brain. If it can be avoided during pregnancy, then why not abstain?

[littleWMN]

The links to more then one study are posted in this thread. Those studies are not contradictory to what other studies have shown as the other studies have dealt with quantities of alcohol much larger then the 1-2 drinks per week we're talking about.

 

This thread needs to be read in it's entirety so people can look at the research and see that often, their points have been dealt with several times.

 

 

Surely you can recognize that to parents of kids with FASD, a thread titled "You Can Drink While Pregnant!" is going to hit a nerve and potentially be inflammatory. Studies may show 1-2 drinks a week are safe. So 3 drinks a week and your baby is doomed? Seriously, unless you've lived this and worry about your child's future and adulthood, I don't think you can understand why, yes, there IS fear. It's not about judgment or "science".... there's not enough "science" in the world to make me believe that any amount of alcohol duing pregnancy is not POTENTIALLY harmful to a developing fetus.

 

Alcohol damage to a fetus is PERMANENT. It does not go away ever. There are babies born that are pickled from alcohol. True story. Yes, maybe the birth mother drank a LOT LOT LOT during pregnancy, but it seemed to have passed the blood brain barrier. MRI's and CT scans show the brains are formed differently.

 

You can say "we're talking 1-2 drinks a week" all you want, but the tone in this thread is that people are paranoid and that FASD only happens very rarely and only to heavy drinkers. The TRUTH is that FASD is highly, highly underdiagnosed and takes many, many forms. The ADHD boy bouncing off the walls may have mild, undiagnosed FASD from alcohol that was consumed at the wrong time during pregnancy.

 

Everyone has to make their own decisions, yes. Drink what you are comfortable with. But perhaps instead of just throwing the "drink while pregnant" phrases around, you could make some disclaimers to be careful as well. It's very real and effects some people on a daily basis.

 

Alcohol and caffeine during pregnancy is not even comparable. When I was pregnant, I did consume a small amount of caffeine. I know many people don't. But I don't know of a single person who has lifelong mental retardation because their birth mother drank large amounts of caffeine. If that were the case, I would have abstained completely.

 

I'm honestly asking, do you know anyone diagnosed with FASD?

[Jenny in Florida]

I think of pregnant women's needs as being just as important, and even more important at times, than the fetus'. That's a terrible thing to some people ("how selfish!"). But, that's what I'm defending here.

 

Whereas I assume that, the minute I choose to take on responsibility for another being, I have an obligation to do my absolute best for him or her. I chose to become pregnant, and my needs took a backseat from that point on, as far as I'm concerned.

 

So, I suspect that's why we have such different feelings on this topic.

 

Let me clarify in advance that I am not implying that your view is "wrong." It's just so different from mine that I don't think we'll find common ground.

[LucyStoner]

Which means if you are feeling a mild buzz, then your developing fetus is feeling a mild buzz too.

 

I'm sorry if anyone things it is judgmental but I think getting a fetus buzzed is a very poor idea.

 

Do you get buzzed from a sip of wine or a small glass of wine? I sure don't. I am a light drinker at most ever (I have only ever been drunk 1 time in my entire life...after both pregnancies at the age of 29), but I generally drink things (small sampling of homemade beers, glass of fine wine) for the taste and not the buzz. Last night at the symphony the bell chimed during intermission and I realized I had been sitting there with my wine in my hand the whole time chatting with my 8 yo son and I emptied the whole glass on the spot. No buzz. It was 1 small glass of wine. I am not pregnant but as a married 31 year old woman, I could find out that I was. Not losing sleep over that if it turned out that way.

[Aelwydd]

While I am okay with moderation in general, unfortunately, there are lots of stupid women (or those struggling with addiction) who would take that as permission to get hammered.

 

Yes, that is an unfortunate side effect of protecting the autonomy of all pregnant women to live, and think, and make their own choices, based on their own judgment. You will get the irresponsible mothers making ill-considered choices.

 

But this issue is no different in this respect, from many others. How often on this home schooling board, have we discussed the unfortunate fact that insisting on our own legal right to make schooling choices, sometimes means that other children are harmed. Why? Because you get that mother who thinks that schooling means 8 hours a day in front of a T.V. and who ends up with a 13 year old who is illiterate.

 

I think most people would agree that such an example proves that a total lack of educational focus spells a poor outcome for children. But does it mean that all home schooling mamas, who occasionally have a "light week," are going to produce illiterate, uneducated children?

 

You know the answer to that, and so does everyone else. As I keep saying on this thread, moderation is key.

[Aelwydd]

Whereas I assume that, the minute I choose to take on responsibility for another being, I have an obligation to do my absolute best for him or her. I chose to become pregnant, and my needs took a backseat from that point on, as far as I'm concerned.

 

So, I suspect that's why we have such different feelings on this topic.

 

Let me clarify in advance that I am not implying that your view is "wrong." It's just so different from mine that I don't think we'll find common ground.

 

Yes, understood. But I hope you also get that while I also believed that most of the time my unborn baby's needs too precedence, sometimes, it was necessary to my health and well-being to take first place.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Aelwydd

[Jenny in Florida]

Do you get buzzed from a sip of wine or a small glass of wine?

 

I no longer drink, but in my case the answer is yes. In the old days when I thought I needed to drink in order to be cool and fit in with the crowd, I would occasionally have a glass of wine or something comparable. I could tell a difference very quickly, and I always woke up with a headache the next day.

[twoforjoy]

because pregnant women are too dumb to distinguish from a big mixed drink and a 1/2 glass of wine?

 

1/2 of pregnancies are unplanned. Many women drink before they know they are pregnant. Should all women who are not sterile and who are sexually active never drink anything? Talk about controlling women.

 

FAS is a big deal. We distract from the real risks and issues when we decide to chastise any woman who does not buy the a drop is too much line. The risk is concentrated in moderate to heavy regular drinking in the first trimester.

 

Maybe I'm being naive, but are there many cases of FAS in women who do not have some sort of pattern of problem drinking--either alcoholism or binge drinking? Are there any documented cases of FAS in women who drank in the way being discussed here (1-2 drinks per week)?

[LucyStoner]

 

Alcohol and caffeine during pregnancy is not even comparable. When I was pregnant, I did consume a small amount of caffeine. I know many people

don't. But I don't know of a single person who has lifelong mental retardation because their birth mother drank large amounts of caffeine. If that were the case, I would have abstained completely.

 

 

Regarding caffiene, its high consumption is linked to miscarriages. The evidence is pretty compelling. It was enough to make me stop consuming caffeine daily when we were TTC. I think potential loss of pregnancy is highly serious.

 

I do know children with FAS. Does anyone know someone with FAS whose mother drank very lightly? There are plenty of kids who have ADD and other health concerns whose mothers did not drink.

Edited September 25, 2011 by kijipt

[littleWMN]

For the sake of my blood pressure, I need to bow out of this thread. There are no studies proving that any amount of alcohol is safe during pregnancy.

 

FASD is considered an "invisible" disability. There are many people walking around undiagnosed who are on the FASD spectrum. Our jails are filled with men and women who were prenatally exposed to alcohol (some stats show as much as 70%).

 

As far as these arguments:

 

*I wouldn't give my newborn mashed potatoes either- well, that is not going to cause life long brain damage to your child.

 

*Other drugs (prescription) can be harmful as well. - True, but alcohol has shown to be more damaging than most drugs (including non prescription like heroin and meth)

 

*The guidelines are put in place for women who wouldn't stop after one drink - No, there is just no known safe amount.

 

 

We are talking life long irreversible brain damage. Yes I realize I sound judgmental and no, I don't care. My son (and many of my friends children) suffer DAILY from their mother's choice. If you spent one day with my son, you would probably feel the same was as I do. Alcohol ruined my son's brain. If it can be avoided during pregnancy, then why not abstain?

 

Forget it.

 

Suffice it to say I agree.

Edited September 25, 2011 by littleWMN

[twoforjoy]

Thalidomide, anyone?

 

I think the difference is that Thalidomide was a new, undertested drug. Alcohol has been around forever, and so have pregnant women. Pregnant women have been drinking for a very long time, and the kind of occasional light drinking we're discussing here is accepted in many parts of the world. If it were associated with problems, those problems would be very obvious.

 

I was trying to see if European rates of FAS were higher than rates in the United States, which is what we would expect if occasional light drinking during pregnancy increased the risk. I appears that the U.S. actually has higher rates. So the "not even a single drop" attitude doesn't seem to be reducing incidence.

[littleWMN]

Regarding caffiene, its high consumption is linked to miscarriages. The evidence is pretty compelling. It was enough to make me stop consuming caffeine daily when we were TTC. I think potential loss of pregnancy is highly serious, having had a number of losses myself.

 

I know this. I've had 5 miscarriages myself and take that seriously as well. I also did not drink caffeine during the first trimester and what I did drink was a small amount. I made that choice with caffeine. Everyone is welsome to make that choice with caffeine or alcohol. It's fair to point out the risks to both.

[LucyStoner]

Maybe I'm being naive, but are there many cases of FAS in women who do not have some sort of pattern of problem drinking--either alcoholism or binge drinking? Are there any documented cases of FAS in women who drank in the way being discussed here (1-2 drinks per week)?

 

Not that I am aware of, which is my point. Some people point to things like ADD and the like as being from FA exposure, but the evidence is not conclusive and there are certainly people with ADD and other health concerns whose mothers never drank a drop.

[Aelwydd]

.

 

I drank sips of wine during the first half of my pregnancy to help settle my upset stomach.

 

I don't even enjoy wine. I never got a buzz out drinking it. I normally hate it, because it can induce migraines. The only enjoyment I got out of it was relief from puking my guts out 10x a day, and having my esophagus scalded to hell from stomach acid.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Aelwydd
Too sensitive information

[ElizaG]

because pregnant women are too dumb to distinguish from a big mixed drink and a 1/2 glass of wine?

That's the argument that the NOFAS site seems to be using. I'm having trouble loading it, but the page is cached here.

 

Note that this page does not say that one standard drink, on occasion, is unsafe (even though more than one person has posted it in this thread, apparently in the belief that it supports that view). If anything, by pointing to people's potential confusion as the "reason" why they teach that no amount is safe, it appears to be implying the opposite.

[twoforjoy]

One, I'm not convinced that there is sufficient proof that exposure drugs such as alcohol and caffeine don't impact developing fetuses.

 

While I don't drink any caffeine, myself--I respond badly to it--I think the evidence is pretty clear that moderate consumption is okay. If I had a history of miscarriages, I might be extra cautious, but I don't think a woman choosing to have a cup of coffee in the morning or tea with lunch is doing anything risky, at all.

 

And I think there is more than sufficient evidence to indicate that occasional light drinking is not risky. I don't have 1-2 drinks per week when not pregnant, so I certainly wouldn't do it while pregnant, but I think we have both scientific and crosscultural evidence to indicate that doing so is perfectly fine.

 

Two, if I would not give a drink of alcohol or a caffeine-laden drink to a baby (and I would not) why would I support exposing them to these drugs in utero?

 

I wouldn't give two extra-strength Tylenol to my baby--I'd get him to the ER immediately if he somehow ingested them--but I had no problem taking that while pregnant or while nursing. I can't imagine anybody would give their newborn an adult dosage of Zofran, but many pregnant women take that. I take an SSRI for panic disorder that, on the advice of my OB after a horrible experience going off of it in my first pregnancy (I ended up having multiple severe panic attacks every day, my blood pressure shot up, and it was just a miserable, scary, and not-very-healthy experience). I most certainly would not give 25mg/day of Zoloft to my baby, but I am perfectly comfortable taking it while pregnant and nursing. Many women take prescription or OTC drugs while pregnant or nursing that they would never, ever give to their child--and that would make a child extremely ill if ingested directly--but that do not harm a fetus or nursing baby.

 

I don't think this has anything to do with "superstition" so much as having common sense.

 

It is not a risk I would want to take.

 

People take risks with their kids all the time that I wouldn't want to take. Unless there is clear evidence that what they are doing is causing demonstrable harm, I refuse to throw any stones and fully support their right to decide for themselves.

[Spy Car]

Yes, the results of too much alcohol are well-established to be harmful. I'm not debating that. I'm debating whether such evidence should be applied to very limited drinking. People argue that too much of anything is bad, so one must embrace complete abstinence. I find that attitude too extreme.

 

We obviously have a difference of opinion. When a drug like alcohol has been proven to have serious and permanent impacts on brain development in amounts that are not that all that high, I think common sense tells us that it is not good for developing fetuses. I would err on the side of caution.

 

That's fine, and you're not alone in that opinion. However, there isn't enough evidence established to say such a belief is rooted in scientific study. So, all I ask is that others refrain from claiming science to support their judgment of my choices, when such scientific evidence does not exist.

 

We don't (generally) conduct controlled experiments that could cause significant harm to developing life for ethical reasons (understanding that there are the Dr Mengeles and other monsters in history).

 

The cited study tested for some developmental markers in a limited sample. If that is enough to convince you, that is your judgment to make. I would require a much higher burden of proof given alcohol's proven capacity to cause serious and permanent harm to fetuses in the womb.

 

But so does eating high sugary foods (which many pregnant women do), and I'd argue that there's far more cases of gestational diabetes and preeclampsia out there, which are related to nutritional issues much of the time, than there are cases of FAS. Yet, I'm not going to deny myself a cupcake or two during pregnancy, just to satisfy the nervous folks who say, well, too much can harm the baby.

 

I'm sure it would not be difficult for you to intuit my position on a pre-natal diet of junk-food. As my mother always said, two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Yes, too much of many things can harm you or your unborn baby. That doesn't mean that I should be expected to completely abstain just to avoid being considered selfish or foolish. Frankly, I find many of these attitudes toward pregnant women to be paternalistic and misogynist.

 

It is unfortunate that you feel the need to testify to name-calling with those who have a legitimate and reasoned difference of opinion with your. It makes reasoned discussion difficult.

 

Bill, don't take this personal, but your statement made me laugh. ACOG is the parenting body for most of practicing obstetrics in the US. Trust me when I tell you, a significant portion of their recommended practices have caused and continue to cause, harm to women and their babies. Not all of them, not every doctor. But, if you want a starting point, you should google "cytotec" also known as "misoprostol" sometime, and see what you turn up.

 

I freely admitted that I have an almost complete lack of knowledge regarding pitocin, so I have no informed opinion. If it is a harmful I would not favor it's use. What is laughable about that?

 

However, I hope you can understand that there are many of us who consider our emotional need for a way to relax, let go of stress, calm morning sickness, a not-insignificant matter of maternal health. But, I'm also ardently pro-choice, and so I don't consider that when a woman turns up pregnant, she automatically should cede any personal desires.

 

And I think the potential risk of permanent harm to a developing fetus from a alcohol consumed in quantities sufficient to cause transitory "relaxation" or "stress reduction" on the part of the mother should give protection to the fetus that trumps the right to recreational drug consumption my the mother. So we profoundly disagree.

 

Bill

[Impish]

I think the difference is that Thalidomide was a new, undertested drug. Alcohol has been around forever, and so have pregnant women. Pregnant women have been drinking for a very long time, and the kind of occasional light drinking we're discussing here is accepted in many parts of the world. If it were associated with problems, those problems would be very obvious.

 

I was trying to see if European rates of FAS were higher than rates in the United States, which is what we would expect if occasional light drinking during pregnancy increased the risk. I appears that the U.S. actually has higher rates. So the "not even a single drop" attitude doesn't seem to be reducing incidence.

My point was, things have been deemed safe, only to discover, tragically, they weren't.

 

And, as has been pointed out, FASD is a sneaky, sneaky thing. There's such a huge, vast array of how it presents, that many believe its actually under diagnosed, that its misdiagnosed as other things, such as ADHD. There's honestly no way to tell for certain.

 

(And no, I'm not saying that all kids with ADHD have FASD instead)

 

So, since there really isn't a way to completely and accurately diagnose FASD, esp in mild cases, for myself, I don't trust anything that says its safe...b/c really, unless its a grave presentation, it can be missed.

 

Everyone has their own comfort levels.

[twoforjoy]

Not that I am aware of, which is my point. Some people point to things like ADD and the like as being from FA exposure, but the evidence is not conclusive and there are certainly people with ADD and other health concerns whose mothers never drank a drop.

 

If that were the case, I would assume we'd see higher rates of ADD in countries where the kind of light drinking we're talking about during pregnancy is accepted. AFAIK, that's not only not the case, but the opposite is the case.

[LucyStoner]

I think the difference is that Thalidomide was a new, undertested drug. Alcohol has been around forever, and so have pregnant women. Pregnant women have been drinking for a very long time, and the kind of occasional light drinking we're discussing here is accepted in many parts of the world. If it were associated with problems, those problems would be very obvious.

 

I was trying to see if European rates of FAS were higher than rates in the United States, which is what we would expect if occasional light drinking during pregnancy increased the risk. I appears that the U.S. actually has higher rates. So the "not even a single drop" attitude doesn't seem to be reducing incidence.

:iagree: