How to Stop the Drop in SAT Verbal Scores

[Brenda in MA]

The College Board recently released the average SAT scores for the nation, and the results are not good. Average verbal scores continue to drop. In one article I read, the College Board claimed that the drop was due to the fact that a larger spectrum of children are taking the SAT. A friend just sent me a link to the following NY Times article on the subject. I think I agree with Mr. Hirsch's reasons more.

 

What says the hive?

 

Brenda

 

E. D. Hirsch, Jr. Article

[regentrude]

I think both effects are likely at play. The one mentioned in the article probably plays a role - but I would assume that would be particularly pronounced in the demographic that traditionally has not been encouraged to take the test.

Also, more students are taking the test whose native language is something other than English, which will probably influence English scores.

[curlylocks]

The College Board recently released the average SAT scores for the nation, and the results are not good. Average verbal scores continue to drop. In one article I read, the College Board claimed that the drop was due to the fact that a larger spectrum of children are taking the SAT. A friend just sent me a link to the following NY Times article on the subject. I think I agree with Mr. Hirsch's reasons more.

 

What says the hive?

 

Brenda

 

E. D. Hirsch, Jr. Article

 

I disagree with the College Board's reasoning...

 

I agree with E.D. Hirsch, Jr. -- my brother was a product of the "Great Verbal Decline" of the 1970s. He was pushed through school -- he "got by" but could have learned so much more if he had basic phonics/reading skills down.

[Teachin'Mine]

I think a change in curricula and lowered standards are two of the reasons, but I think another major reason is due to the lost art of reading and writing. Technology has taken over in the form of texting where grammar and spelling have taken a new form. JMO :)

[In The Great White North]

Looking at the averages, I can't tell when they re-normed the test. Does anyone know?

 

I suspect the lower reading level of popular childrens/teens bookstore/library/assigned selections might also have something to do with it.

[mjbucks1]

I agree with the article. But I would be interested to know how many ESL (English as a second language) students are taking the tests (we have a HUGE oOmali population in Columbus and it definately affects the state tests scores in the school districts that contain a large ESL population). Also, I had my 8th grade son take the SAT last year, and while his critical reading score was very good, his writing was not :D. I don't know if more younger kids are taking the test, or if this would be enough to skew results :confused:. Just wondering. Also, I read an article this past summer about the dumbing down of textbooks across the curriclum and how this has affected reading comprehension. Just another reason why I homeschool :).

[In The Great White North]

Also, I had my 8th grade son take the SAT last year, and while his critical reading score was very good, his writing was not :D. I don't know if more younger kids are taking the test, or if this would be enough to skew results

 

No, this is just college bound seniors (self-reported.)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Looking at the averages, I can't tell when they re-normed the test. Does anyone know?

 

I suspect the lower reading level of popular childrens/teens bookstore/library/assigned selections might also have something to do with it.

 

:iagree: with the bolded. I just finished reading The Legend of Sleepy Hollow to my kids. Wonderful language. Did a lot of it go over their heads. Sure. But they also had a week of some wonderful phrasing and word choice that is no longer typical in the literature that kids read.

 

Not saying that Sleepy Hollow was written as kids' lit. But there was a day when books of its ilk with much more advanced and nuanced writing were common.

[Julie in MN]

Michael Clay Thompson is the solution to all this :) He has dug into the vocab that is most used in the classics, made vocab books, literature editions, and even just a little book called Classic Words http://www.rfwp.com/book/classic-words . It's so fun for a word-lover like me!

 

Julie

[regentrude]

I agree with the article. But I would be interested to know how many ESL (English as a second language) students are taking the tests

 

The college board states that 27% of test takes have learned a first language other than English in their homes.

http://press.collegeboard.org/releases/2011/43-percent-2011-college-bound-seniors-met-sat-college-and-career-readiness-benchmark

 

"27 percent do not speak exclusively English

 

• 431,319 of SAT takers in the class of 2011 report that English was not the only language first learned at home."
  

It is not possible to tell from this number how many of the students are truly bilingual, and how many have deficits in English because their family language is their dominant language - either scenarios would fall under those 27%.

[Janice in NJ]

This is great.

 

Scores drop. National averages go down. My kid's score automatically looks better; she moves into a higher percentile. And we don't have to DO anything.

 

Cool beans.... now I just need to find a way to persuade the college scholarship committee to see things through my lens, eh?

 

Obviously kidding here. :tongue_smilie: I'm bummin'. My answer?

 

Read aloud books in the afternoon and books on tape at bedtime for little one. Read aloud time and Teaching Company lectures for the not-so-little ones. I swear hanging out with those guys and gals for thirty minutes a day adds a dependent clause to every third sentence spoken around here. ;)

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[Shelly in VA]

Looking at the averages, I can't tell when they re-normed the test. Does anyone know?

 

The SAT was renormed in the spring of 1995. I know this b/c occasionally a debate still surfaces between my parents (of all people!) as to whether it is my youngest brother or me who is the "smartest" on paper, based on our similar SAT scores. I took the test in the mid-80s, he took the renormed test in the late-90s. I'm saying I win. ;) He and I actually have never debated the topic, either with each other or with our parents. We both manage to get dressed in the morning, pay our bills, and raise kids, so I don't suppose it really matters at this point who got what score! (Please don't take this to mean that I am diminishing the importance of the test results and/or the declining scores at all. My oldest child is a junior this year, so I am perpetually knee deep in the worry and research over SAT scores, SAT II tests, have-I-ruined-my-kids-by-homeschooling concerns, and so on these days!)

 

Shelly

[Shelly in VA]

This is great.

 

Scores drop. National averages go down. My kid's score automatically looks better; she moves into a higher percentile. And we don't have to DO anything.

 

Cool beans.... now I just need to find a way to persuade the college scholarship committee to see things through my lens, eh?

 

Obviously kidding here. :tongue_smilie: I'm bummin'. My answer?

 

Read aloud books in the afternoon and books on tape at bedtime for little one. Read aloud time and Teaching Company lectures for the not-so-little ones. I swear hanging out with those guys and gals for thirty minutes a day adds a dependent clause to every third sentence spoken around here. ;)

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

What she said! :D

[Barb_]

The College Board recently released the average SAT scores for the nation, and the results are not good. Average verbal scores continue to drop. In one article I read, the College Board claimed that the drop was due to the fact that a larger spectrum of children are taking the SAT. A friend just sent me a link to the following NY Times article on the subject. I think I agree with Mr. Hirsch's reasons more.

 

What says the hive?

 

Brenda

 

E. D. Hirsch, Jr. Article

 

That was the reason they gave when they recentered it. Then it made sense. To explain the continued drop? Unlikely.

[readinmom]

Although it is not the norm everywhere, I am saddened by the lack of "real" reading at the high school level. When ds was a freshman, it was Great Expectations, Catcher in the Rye, etc.

 

Now it is "excerpts" from the novel. Just enough to teach the "concepts" without enjoying the whole reading experience. I blame high stakes testing for part of it.

 

I always carried a book with me in high school. Now it's the cell phone or iPod.

[Gwen in VA]

Read "The Dumbest Generation" for further exploration of why the generation that has greater access to more thought-provoking things than ever before continues to fall further and further behind intellectually.

 

It's an interesting though depressing read.

 

The author explores the effects of technology (cell phones, iPods as well as computers and video games), family structure, mode of education, school expectations, etc.

 

The short of it all -- things are looking grim unless we as parents and as a society start doing some major investing of time and effort in the next generation. Sounds like homeschooling to me! :001_smile:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

The college board states that 27% of test takes have learned a first language other than English in their homes.

http://press.collegeboard.org/releases/2011/43-percent-2011-college-bound-seniors-met-sat-college-and-career-readiness-benchmark

 

"27 percent do not speak exclusively English

 

• 431,319 of SAT takers in the class of 2011 report that English was not the only language first learned at home."
  

It is not possible to tell from this number how many of the students are truly bilingual, and how many have deficits in English because their family language is their dominant language - either scenarios would fall under those 27%.

 

As would the scenario of students who are mostly monolingual English speakers, who have picked up a few phrases of another language by listening to their parents or grandparents.

 

 

But I think this is one of the issues that we get into when we start to think of a test like SAT as an intelligence test rather than as a test of preparedness for college level math (and the science based on applying math) and literacy (and the writing and discussions based on the understanding of college level vocabulary).

 

When I took my German language exams, everyone in the room was a German language learner. They might have collected data on our nation of origin or other languages. They probably asked how long we'd studied German. But the grading was still based on an ability to use German correctly. And if I'd wanted to attend a German uni, that is something I would have had to master to a higher degree.

[mamato4]

I suspect the lower reading level of popular childrens/teens bookstore/library/assigned selections might also have something to do with it.

 

 

I heartily agree with this statement. DS went to ps this year for 9th grade. He is still not the great writer or thinker but we read A LOT using Sonlight and TOG! So when I looked at the summer reading choices for 9th graders who are not in the honors class, I was appalled! The reasoning was it is very difficult to get the kids to read so they assign more contemporary books (read: werewolves and foul language) to get them to read at least ONE book over the summer. The honors class was told to read Animal Farm and Watership Down, both of which we've already read and discussed in our homeschool.

 

I wrote a long letter to the school board and so did a few moms. Last I heard, the Board will review the summer reading list before it is approved.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I suspect the lower reading level of popular childrens/teens bookstore/library/assigned selections might also have something to do with it.

 

 

I heartily agree with this statement. DS went to ps this year for 9th grade. He is still not the great writer or thinker but we read A LOT using Sonlight and TOG! So when I looked at the summer reading choices for 9th graders who are not in the honors class, I was appalled! The reasoning was it is very difficult to get the kids to read so they assign more contemporary books (read: werewolves and foul language) to get them to read at least ONE book over the summer. The honors class was told to read Animal Farm and Watership Down, both of which we've already read and discussed in our homeschool.

 

I wrote a long letter to the school board and so did a few moms. Last I heard, the Board will review the summer reading list before it is approved.

 

And I think that both Animal Farm and Watership Down are going to go well over the heads of many readers, because they don't have the reading background for that type of book. They don't have stamina to read something that doesn't come easily (Harry Potter and Twilight are lengthy but they aren't challenging in the same way as older books written on a higher reading level both in language and in imagery).

 

I was also surprised when I looked at the local 7th and 8th grade reading list. Many titles were books my kids had read for fun in the last couple of years (ie, when they were in 4th-6th grade).

 

One of our friends was recently venting about the massive load that her son has in his AP US history class. The comments from the other school parents was interesting. His school has no honors history class. You either take the standard history offering or AP. And it sounds like the AP course load is quite heavy. Certainly the demands have gone from 0-60 with not enough prep. (FWIW, both of the parents graduated from demanding colleges, so it's not like they are unaware of college demands or unfamiliar with college prep courses.)

 

One of the saddest observations was from a couple moms who mentioned that their older kids had gone from loving history to disliking it in the process of taking the AP class. (Which is a good lesson for our house. Don't kill the passion.)

I'm not sure I agree with this quote from the article:

the best single measure of the overall quality of our primary and secondary schools is the average verbal score of 17-year-olds.

 

Of course, I don't know another single best measure for any given 17 year old, but it seems like we're just perpetuating the myth of the value of testing. We're also overly fond of reducing the achievements and abilities of 17 year olds down to one single number.

 

Scoring very high on the SAT verbal section is like going to the national spelling bee: you need to know a lot of words which you should never use -- like the on-line vocab test that someone published here a while back. I happen to know the SAT word "terpsichorean", I also happen to know that if I ever used it in oral or written conversation, I would sound like a twit.

[Nan in Mass]

I think you have to start with things like Peter Rabbit with toddlers.

[mjbucks1]

Also, at least from what I hear from parents who have children in ps in our area, the schools are so concerned with meeting the minimum state standard that ALL the attention goes to those who struggling. There is virtually no encouragement or incentive for the bright kids to be challenged by their teachers. So if a 4th grader is reading at grade level, they will not be advanced beyond that.

I do think we need to have accountability in our schools, but it seems that the bright children are suffering and the aim is just for everyone to be mediocre.

I think lots of "good" book reading is the key. I also think Latin has been a wonderful addition to our curriculum over the years. I often wonder why it was removed from public education (when my mom was in high school, everyone took Latin). Also, my children have really studied and know their grammar. My ds scored a 35 on the ACT English section, and was in the 75th percentile for the SAT (I can't remember the exact number). And this was at the end of his 8th grade year. He is not a genius. We have concentrated on the basics.

[Guest Barb B]

Dummying down in the schools. Really, they have very little required in English classes. It is amazing and pathetic how little kids are required to read, analyze and write about literature. . . really sad. . . The assignments I here ds friends and some parents speak of - well they are back in upper elementary and middle school level. Really, read a book and complete a small packet on it - requiring not even complete sentences? And parents like to rave how good these school are.

 

Also, kids can't think for themselves anymore - can't reason things out.

 

Barb

[Nscribe]

The buzz acronym for a over a decade has been STEM. I have to wonder if the focus on math and the sciences by parents and schools has been to the detriment of verbal skills and at best maintenance of math results.

 

Please don't think I am suggesting the maths and sciences should be less a focus. I am just a bit cynical on the ability of the educational system to walk and chew gum at the same time. It seems trends take hold and the rest falls by the wayside till the next alarm rings.

[justamouse]

This is great.

 

Scores drop. National averages go down. My kid's score automatically looks better; she moves into a higher percentile. And we don't have to DO anything.

 

Cool beans.... now I just need to find a way to persuade the college scholarship committee to see things through my lens, eh?

 

Obviously kidding here. :tongue_smilie: I'm bummin'. My answer?

 

Read aloud books in the afternoon and books on tape at bedtime for little one. Read aloud time and Teaching Company lectures for the not-so-little ones. I swear hanging out with those guys and gals for thirty minutes a day adds a dependent clause to every third sentence spoken around here. ;)

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

I think you have to start with things like Peter Rabbit with toddlers.

 

 

:iagree:

 

It's so broken that they can't fix it at the high school level. It has to be fixed in grammar school.

[creekland]

I finally had a chance to read this thread (been busy at school, so have only had little bits and pieces of time on here).

 

In our school scores have been dropping as well and our school has been trying to combat it. This year all high school teachers have ended up teaching extra reading/vocab/grammar on Monday and Wednesday in what used to be an extra section of time to use for whatever class they normally teach. The last time I was in this "class" (with normal level juniors), they were doing a section on synonyms and antonyms. First we did a short explanation of what synonyms and antonyms were (they ALL knew already), then they did a 10 question quiz similar to SAT questions. In order to "pass" the day they needed to get at least 8 correct. Only 2 students did (of 12). Why? They didn't know the words being tested and NONE of the words were words parents on here wouldn't recognize if I were to type them (eg, benevolence, explicit, etc). This wasn't just a phenomena of my class. Everyone said the same thing when we got together to compare.

 

Why don't they know the words? I was curious (being math/science I simply don't see English that much). I talked with an 8th grade English teacher... she told me she had to use two 4th grade novels in her class. Why? Because the school wants all kids on the same curriculum and some kids need the 4th grade level. She argued that she had kids who DIDN'T need the 4th grade level, but it didn't matter... Fortunately, on the side, she gave some of her better kids who had a work ethic other books, but most teachers don't and not all capable students have such a work ethic. Kids aren't going to learn the vocabulary without books that use these words. Studying them for vocab merely means they learn them for a test, then forget them.

 

Back to the "extra" class we have. My own guy (and others) test advanced on our state tests. With that extra time they have "Reading Enrichment." They use the time getting a book of their [individual] choice - reading it - and eventually writing a book report of sorts on it. While that's better than endlessly drilling when they don't need it, I personally think a reading club or something similar using challenging books would be a better use of their time. Kids tell me they are bored. With a discussion based class I think it would be far more interesting, but essentially, the school isn't worried about these kids and has just filed them away for the time period in a study hall of sorts.

 

Another thing I've noticed is that kids/teachers use class time to read books, research, and write papers. In my day all of those things were completed outside of class - not in it. Class time was used for teaching or discussion. There's a finite amount of time in class and some of that is used for testing, movies, special days, and snow delay issues. Taking even more out to read/research/write means a lot less is left for actual teaching.

 

In math we have similar problems though not with reading/researching/writing. All classes with a similar name have to be doing the EXACT SAME THING. This means an Alg 2 class with kids who struggle covers the same material as an Alg 2 class with kids who could go on and do more. They dumb it down to [almost] the lowest common denominator. This really robs the kids who could do more IMO.

 

And our scores are below average for the state and our state is below average (now) for the country. We've dropped AP as kids simply weren't scoring well. Now we have "College in the High School" as that way kids can get college credits (transferable to some colleges) based on their teacher's recommendation without having to take a standardized test. We've had kids get this credit, then need remedial courses when they take college placement tests (courses BELOW that for which they received credit). Monday I asked if we could get AP back or have it as an option and was firmly told, "No, College in the High School has replaced it and is better." It isn't for our needs. The majority of colleges my guys are considering won't give credit (understandably) for College in the High School classes. They will give credit for a 4 or 5 on the AP test. Not having AP hurts our top kids when they apply to colleges as they are competing with students who have oodles of them. Ours have none.

 

But back to verbal scores... Trying to do remedial "catch up" isn't going to work nearly as well as just getting kids up to pace at an earlier age and letting those who can grasp academics well FLY!

 

Off my soapbox...

[Janice in NJ]

Yes, a possible explanation. If this is the case, then we should see a rise in math scores. That's not happening either.

 

Circling back,

Janice

[justamouse]

 

Off my soapbox...

 

Just reading that infuriated me. I don't know how you do it. I would be screaming at people.

[Janice in NJ]

Average GRE Scores:

http://testprep.about.com/od/thegretest/f/GRE_FAQ_Score.htm

 

Mean GRE Scores for Education Majors:

http://testprep.about.com/od/thegretest/a/GRE_Education.htm

 

Percentile Ranks:

http://www.testmasters.net/GreAbout/Scoring-Scale

 

OK, none of these are official sites. But this jumps out:

 

The average elementary school teacher scores 46th percentile for verbal skills, 31st percentile for quantitative, and 50th percentile for writing.

 

The average secondary school teacher hits the 58th percentile for verbal, 43rd percentile for quantitative, and 63rd percentile for writing.

 

The folks in charge of choosing the materials are the Curriculum/Instruction Majors. Correct? If so, then the ones who pick through the garbage and dish up the "good stuff" weigh in with a 52nd percentile for verbal, 36th percentile for quantitative, and 54th percentile for writing.

 

Viola! Certainly the data speaks. Yes, these are averages. There are great teachers. And there are smart teachers. Again, these are averages. But if we are going to talk about kids as a population, then I think we need to start looking at teachers as a population. It wouldn't hurt to cast an eye toward the materials they are using. In either case, I'm not seeing a stunning set of collective wisdom.

 

Certainly the numbers indicate that Education is not attracting our brightest minds.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

P.S. My little guy practices the pipe organ every morning; I attempt to generate some sort of interesting conversation while we are commuting. This morning's conversation was about argumentative essays and geometric proofs. How are they the same and how are they different? A great writing teacher has more knowledge, time, and attention to give to composition than I have. A great geometry teacher also has more resources than I. However, we homeschool because ds is not likely to get a writing teacher who owns and adores a copy of Heath's edition of Euclid's Elements. It sits at my side in the bin with a copy of The Bones at the ready. You just can't do 9th grade without it.

 

So we struggle on. I'm re-reading Strunk & White again. Again. And yes, you just can't do 9th grade without it. (I need a bigger bin!)

Edited September 21, 2011 by Janice in NJ

[creekland]

Just reading that infuriated me. I don't know how you do it. I would be screaming at people.

 

I handled it with my guys by pulling them out to homeschool them at 9th, 7th, and 5th grades respectively. In hindsight, I'd have pulled my oldest out at 7th grade as my middle son did much better than oldest (and oldest did well).

 

Youngest is back in ps because his personality is such that he needs to be there (was literally suicidal without it and is doing much, much better now). I feel like I'm walking a tightrope trying to get him a good education while remaining employed there favorably. Fortunately, his homeschooling years (5th - 8th) gave him a good background and a love of learning in general. By bringing him along as we visited colleges with middle son he's seen what colleges need/want and had some upper academia discussions with profs in the field he wants to go in. Now, he's self motivated to do as well as he can and isn't falling into the "common denominator" mode at school. I'm just figuring out how to supplement. I'm thinking he will do AP Bio on his own and I've pulled him from our school's English to take a school approved cyber course that will lead to AP for the next two years. The cyber course isn't my favorite, but he's doing far more than he'd be doing at our school - and getting As. Getting him a 4 or 5 on the AP will be far better than getting a "College in the High School" credit.

 

What does make me feel bad is that my kids are considered geniuses by their peers at this point. However, back when they were all in school they were merely typical high achieving kids among their peers (meaning their peers are equally as capable). Middle son even commented to me that he can't believe how much higher he scored than ______ as ______ was always "smarter" than him back in school. It's not the capability that has differed. It's what they were allowed to learn. _____ is still a really intelligent student who could do as well as my guy, but he doesn't have the scores to get as much in scholarship $$ or even to assure acceptance into some schools he'd like to go to. And that's just one example. We have many capable kids - just like anywhere else. They aren't being allowed to fly IMO.

 

In regards to the standards for teachers... yesterday I overheard one of the middle school teachers telling their class that a 100lb person would weigh 60lbs on the moon because the moon has 1/6th the gravity of earth. I'm hoping it was the speaking equivalent of a typo. I like to think that's all it was. I am not in a position to say anything about it there, but, when/if I'm in a class I might make it more clear what the correct conversion would be if it came up.

[abacus2]

My ds scored a 35 on the ACT English section, and was in the 75th percentile for the SAT (I can't remember the exact number). And this was at the end of his 8th grade year. He is not a genius. We have concentrated on the basics.

 

Has he been tested? I would suggest that someone who scores a 35 on any portion of the ACT at the end of 8th grade is very, very likely to have a genius level IQ regardless of his educational background. While geniuses comprise a small percentage of the population, 1% of everyone is still a very large number of people. Most geniuses are normal people doing everyday things with brains that work more quickly/efficiently.

 

Based on the quality of writing, problem solving, and thought processes I see demonstrated on these boards, I would guess that as much as 50% of the regular posters here have a genius level (or very close to it) IQ and are likely to have similarly intelligent children.

[FaithManor]

Creekland has hit the nail on the head! Everyone has to do the exact same thing at the same time and the classes are geared to the lowest achiever in that class.

 

That is the official policy of our school district. Additionally, the previous superintendent eliminated all AP and honors classes, plus all gifted enrichment classes for the younger students because (and I quote this from a school board meeting), "The kids in this district aren't too bright." He then accosted me after the meeting and asked when I planned to stop sheltering my kids and enroll them in school. My response, "I have bright children. You just assured me, via your comments in this session, that there is no room for them in your system. I don't know where you went to school or what college you attended, but clearly logical thinking was not a part of your education. Essentially, you have asked me to proclaim, through school enrollment in this district, that my children are not very smart. I beg to differ."

 

My kids "appear" to be geniuses compared to their peers in this area and yet, I know they aren't. I hate it when people use that term around them because I do not want them to begin to have an overinflated view of themselves and their academic achievements. Yet, I can see why people say this. What has become the acceptable norm for the bulk of the student population is so significantly dumbed down from my generation which was significantly dumbed down from parents generation.....well, it stands to reason that definitions of hyper-intelligence are then dumbed down and used flippantly.

 

Undergirding all of this, is that high school teachers are getting many students into their classes that only read at a 4th grade level. So, the ultimate failure in the system is in the younger years. My best guess is that educational experimentation with unproven methods of teaching reading and math have been used for so long, that we cannot expect scores to improve significantly until some good, old fashioned, no-nonsense teaching is reinstituted and parents decide to get involved in their kids' educations and demand meaningful change. Unfortunately, many are quite blissfully unaware and just hope everything will turn out okay. Like our neighbor with a little boy in third grade who has been tested for learning disabilities and none have been found but still cannot read a simple sentence. I offered to tutor him for free....his mother didn't want to punish him by using up any play-time after school on reading. GRRRRRRRR......

 

Faith

[mjbucks1]

Has he been tested? I would suggest that someone who scores a 35 on any portion of the ACT at the end of 8th grade is very, very likely to have a genius level IQ regardless of his educational background.

 

 

No, I have never had his IQ tested. I really don't think he is a genius, but he is very bright. He did learn to read very early (3 1/2) and has devoured books ever since. He does find memorizing VERY easy (I keep telling him how blessed he is), but he also studies hard. I would not do anything different even if he were a genius. I am already giving him challenging material.

I do wonder how test scores for the overall population would improve if schools would challenge those that are bright (reading the latest posts are so discouraging. The bright kids are almost completely ignored).

Janice in NJ, your post about GRE score averages was very interesting. My sister is an 8th grade special ed teacher. She is very good and spends a great deal of time to ensure she is an excellent teacher. However, she also tells me the horror stories of other teachers at her school, especially those in the English department, who assign a book for class and all the kids do during class is read!! Then every six weeks a book report is due....no teaching, NOTHING!! My sister actually encouraged me to homeschool :).

[creekland]

I do wonder how test scores for the overall population would improve if schools would challenge those that are bright (reading the latest posts are so discouraging. The bright kids are almost completely ignored).

 

 

This is my opinion of why test scores are so low - esp at our school. Not everyone can be a track star, football champ, or academic top of their class. Our schools don't try to slow down the track stars to match everyone else. They don't keep the football champ from practice since he's already good enough. But somehow it's ok to assume "the top academic kids will do well no matter what you do" (a quote we were told by the middle school principal at the time). If we took our top kids and challenged them appropriately, our scores would go up since theirs would.

 

AND, just maybe, they'd come back from their freshman year of college telling us they were well-prepared instead of being full of stories about how tough it is.

 

I, myself, went to a good high school, then went on to college very well prepared. I know it can happen. But at this "average school" it sure doesn't happen often. Some kids succeed, but they tell stories of having to learn to work/study, etc at college. Many others return to go to cc to step up their skills. And we're rarely talking about them starting at top tier schools to begin with.

[regentrude]

creekland,

I admire you for working in a school. It must be extremely frustrating dealing with this stuff.

And thanks for reminding me why I chose to homeschool my children.

[FaithManor]

This is my opinion of why test scores are so low - esp at our school. Not everyone can be a track star, football champ, or academic top of their class. Our schools don't try to slow down the track stars to match everyone else. They don't keep the football champ from practice since he's already good enough. But somehow it's ok to assume "the top academic kids will do well no matter what you do" (a quote we were told by the middle school principal at the time). If we took our top kids and challenged them appropriately, our scores would go up since theirs would.

 

 

This is so very true. The outliers greatly affect the statistic. If one could throw out the extreme highs and lows, it might be more telling in terms of how the majority is doing.

 

The herd mentality, one size fits all educational process serves very, very few well. The "top academic kids will do well no matter what you do" philosophy is common in a huge number of our area schools. 4 yrs. of stagnation does not prepare one for a rigorous college program.

 

Faith

[justamouse]

creekland,

I admire you for working in a school. It must be extremely frustrating dealing with this stuff.

And thanks for reminding me why I chose to homeschool my children.

:iagree:

 

Every year I fiddle with the thought of going back to school so I can get my teaching certs. Then I spend time with the local teachers and re-realize that I would never be able to deal with the system as it is. I would have to go open my own school. Which I Do seriously think about.

[creekland]

creekland,

I admire you for working in a school. It must be extremely frustrating dealing with this stuff.

And thanks for reminding me why I chose to homeschool my children.

 

I actually like what I do, so I can't complain too much. By going in as a sub I can get away with doing my own thing more than a real teacher can. I can teach a different style (say, FOIL, for instance). I can go over different problems (since I don't "know" which ones we're supposed to do and which ones we're supposed to skip - usually). I can warm up with SAT Questions of the Day that I have saved on my e-mail. I can get off track. I can ask them to think. I can, for a short period of time, influence kids. Most love it when I'm in - partially because it's a break in their routine, of course, but I enjoy it when the "aha" moments come too.

 

If I were a real teacher (and I think about it from time to time), I'd have to tow the line and much of my freedom would be lost. Besides, to be a real teacher I'd have to get my teaching certification. I came from industry. I never took the "how to teach" classes. Maybe that was a plus? ;) I have a Physics major and Math/Psychology minors... that's not good enough for public school except to sub. I'd need to get a Masters in Education.

 

This is so very true. The outliers greatly affect the statistic. If one could throw out the extreme highs and lows, it might be more telling in terms of how the majority is doing.

 

Faith

 

Those stats would be quite interesting to see. However, it's not just the outliers we're missing. It's the upper quartile of the bell curve. Those we have in the upper quartile are our outliers. We need our percentages to match the bell curve - and they could IMO.

 

:iagree:

 

Every year I fiddle with the thought of going back to school so I can get my teaching certs. Then I spend time with the local teachers and re-realize that I would never be able to deal with the system as it is. I would have to go open my own school. Which I Do seriously think about.

 

Public schools need good teachers, but right now there are so many layoffs that it could be tough finding a job. And, you're right. The system is a bear to deal with. It both coddles the ineffective teachers and stifles the potentially good ones.

[regentrude]

Besides, to be a real teacher I'd have to get my teaching certification. I came from industry. I never took the "how to teach" classes. Maybe that was a plus? ;) I have a Physics major and Math/Psychology minors... that's not good enough for public school except to sub. I'd need to get a Masters in Education.

 

That's another ridiculous thing. I had a student last year whose high school physics class was taught by the biology teacher who skipped topics because she admittedly did not understand them herself... but I bet she had an education degree...

[Robbin]

Thanks for the link!

[Tullia]

 

If I were a real teacher (and I think about it from time to time), I'd have to tow the line and much of my freedom would be lost. Besides, to be a real teacher I'd have to get my teaching certification. I came from industry. I never took the "how to teach" classes. Maybe that was a plus? ;) I have a Physics major and Math/Psychology minors... that's not good enough for public school except to sub. I'd need to get a Masters in Education.

 

 

 

I think this is a big part of the problem--too many states make it difficult for qualified people who don't have an education degree to go into the classroom. I'm a little less pessimistic than just a week ago, though. The NM Public Education Commission gave final approval to a classical charter school last Friday. I predict there will be more applicants than spaces available. It's not much, but it's encouraging.

[creekland]

That's another ridiculous thing. I had a student last year whose high school physics class was taught by the biology teacher who skipped topics because she admittedly did not understand them herself... but I bet she had an education degree...

 

I seriously think teachers should have to have a degree in the subject they are teaching (Bio/Phyics/English/whatever) and then, if they want to require it, a teaching degree. There are many teachers who don't really understand as much as I would find ideal. Of course, there are also many who do have a passion for their subject and learn as much as they can beyond their textbook. We need more of the latter.

 

As far as the actual teaching degree... over the years I've come to believe that people are gifted/talented with the ability to teach (or not). Classes might help, but they can't put the talent in when it isn't naturally there.

 

I think this is a big part of the problem--too many states make it difficult for qualified people who don't have an education degree to go into the classroom. I'm a little less pessimistic than just a week ago, though. The NM Public Education Commission gave final approval to a classical charter school last Friday. I predict there will be more applicants than spaces available. It's not much, but it's encouraging.

 

Unfortunately, so far charter schools in PA haven't come through with any better stats than ps. I haven't looked into it more than the headlines though, so I don't know if they are classical or not. I know I occasionally read about great charter schools, but then again, in some places there are great public schools too. I do hope it succeeds in NM. I'm all for a higher level of education across our nation from any source.

[Tullia]

I seriously think teachers should have to have a degree in the subject they are teaching (Bio/Phyics/English/whatever) and then, if they want to require it, a teaching degree. There are many teachers who don't really understand as much as I would find ideal. Of course, there are also many who do have a passion for their subject and learn as much as they can beyond their textbook. We need more of the latter.

 

As far as the actual teaching degree... over the years I've come to believe that people are gifted/talented with the ability to teach (or not). Classes might help, but they can't put the talent in when it isn't naturally there.

 

ITA with all of the above.

Unfortunately, so far charter schools in PA haven't come through with any better stats than ps. I haven't looked into it more than the headlines though, so I don't know if they are classical or not. I know I occasionally read about great charter schools, but then again, in some places there are great public schools too. I do hope it succeeds in NM. I'm all for a higher level of education across our nation from any source.

 

I do know that in NM the stats are not consistent; many of our charters are written with at-risk students or under served areas in mind which probably has a significant effect on the aggregate numbers. We have some successes, but some spectacular failures as well. One of the biggest questions being asked of charter school applicants these days is for some assurance that their methods can be expected to produce results. The state's education budget is a nightmare and so the PEC is more averse to risk than in the past.

 

I have two friends who serve on the boards of existing charters and know some of the people who worked on the classical charter app. I'll ask what they have heard about classical charters in other states. This will be NM's first, so the application cited stats from schools in other states. I think one was in Colorado but don't remember about the others.