I feel a need to get this off my chest. Re: Whining Moms

[clwcain]

Hurt feelings I just don't get. But maybe it's just me.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

Hi Kay,

I'm the OP, and I've apologized already about using the name "whiners", but I'll reiterate my apology here, in case it got buried.

 

I didn't start this thread to sling insults, nor to hurt feelings. It just seemed that only one voice was being heard, and it was assumed that all homeschoolers felt the same way. I'd been inundated with e-mails from local groups, and I was surprised that the HSLDA jumped on the bandwagon. I wanted to find out if anyone else agreed with me. It doesn't bother when people voice their opinions. It does bother me when hundreds of people regurgitate other people's opinions, over and over and over again. I really was wondering if I was alone in my disagreement.

 

I could have used a weaker word than "whiner", but after days and days of listening to the outcry, it really did start sound like whining to me. It was blown all out of proportion. It was just an obscure little contest (IMO). I was at Subway this weekend, and didn't even see it posted anywhere in the store. Hardly anyone seems to even know about it. I couldn't figure out what people were so upset about.

 

Now, it seems, some have jumped on the anti-whiner bandwagon. And, others are building an anti-anti-whiner bandwagon. I certainly didn't mean to start anything like this!

 

I apologize if I hurt your feelings.

[Kanga]

Even if I had tomatoes, which do to inclement weather I do not, I would not throw them at you. I agree with your original post.

[swellmomma]

I have not read all 11 pages of replies but have to say I agree 100% with you. I know I do not tolerate whining of "It's no fair!" from my children and expect adults to follow the same

[Kay in Cal]

Think about it this way:

 

Someone you know walks up to you in a public place and says loudly (so that all your mutual friends hear), "You are such a whiner!"

 

I would feel hurt.

Someone else might just be angry (another way of expressing hurt, really).

Someone else might not react at all.

 

Still, these reactions would be well within the realm of psychologically normal.

[Jackie in AR]

Hurt feelings I just don't get. But maybe it's just me.

 

You've posted this under me, but I don't understand to what you are referring.

 

Do you think my feelings are hurt? They aren't. In fact, I'm not passionate about this issue one way or another. I think Subway / Scholastic can choose to run whatever contest they wish, and that the general public can choose to respond in any way they wish. And then others can voice their opinions of those opinions.

 

What I find to be inappropriate is the use of name-calling and comparison of adults to preschoolers that is included in the OP of this thread. Discussions that include those tactics quickly move out of the civilized category in my mind.

[clwcain]

You've posted this under me, but I don't understand to what you are referring.

 

Do you think my feelings are hurt? They aren't. In fact, I'm not passionate about this issue one way or another. I think Subway / Scholastic can choose to run whatever contest they wish, and that the general public can choose to respond in any way they wish. And then others can voice their opinions of those opinions.

 

What I find to be inappropriate is the use of name-calling and comparison of adults to preschoolers that is included in the OP of this thread. Discussions that include those tactics quickly move out of the civilized category in my mind.

 

I failed to quote Kay and I was responding to her. She's since responded to me. Mea culpa.

[Kay in Cal]

Thank you for the apology. Agreeing to disagree is fine, it was just the name calling I was upset about.

 

All is well.

[Robin in Tx]

Kay, I can honestly say, cross my heart and hope to die, that I haven't read one single post in either that thread or any other thread about this topic on this message board. I see how it appears differently to people like you who were involved in the other thread. But believe me, when I jumped into this conversation, I was agreeing with the general idea that there's been a lot of whining about this elsewhere (and my definition of whining about this is simple: anyone who thinks that a homeschooler should have the right to earn that equipment for their backyard and is going to protest loudly and boycott because of it). I'm not backing off or being disingenuous. I've been a little surprised by the ugliness I've seen elsewhere over this issue, and HSLDA's involvement did touch a nerve with me.

 

But anyhow, thanks for bringing this all up. I didn't know about the other thread. Now I understand some of the comments I've seen in *this* thread a little better. Since I've obviously hopped on a hot and moving train, maybe I need to bow out of this before I cause any further damage :).

 

Robin

[Kay in Cal]

Been there and done that... there's a lot of trains around here, ya know?

 

I will retire to my corner quickly before someone starts remembering "Kay's terrible posts of years gone by..." Search engines are the enemies of forgiveness. :tongue_smilie:

[Mrs Mungo]

*makes a circle with bandwagons, starts a campfire, takes more cold medicine and lies down*

[Suzanne in ABQ]

I'm the OP, and I feel the need, now, to apologize for hurting people's feelings. I used poor judgment in my choice of words. Kay was right for calling me on the carpet (is that the right expression?) for treating you all differently in cyberspace than I would have in real life. I most likely would never have started this discussion in someone's living room. I apologized to her already, and she has graciously accepted my apology. I'll re-post my apology here, so that everyone can see it. After this, I will bow out of the above discussion.

 

 

From my post to Kay:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I didn't start this thread to sling insults, nor to hurt feelings. It just seemed that only one voice was being heard, and it was assumed that all homeschoolers felt the same way. I'd been inundated with e-mails from local groups, and I was surprised that the HSLDA jumped on the bandwagon. I wanted to find out if anyone else agreed with me. It doesn't bother me when people voice their opinions. It does bother me when hundreds of people regurgitate other people's opinions, over and over and over again. I really was wondering if I was alone in my disagreement.

 

I could have used a weaker word than "whiner", but after days and days of listening to the outcry, it really did start sound like whining to me. It was blown all out of proportion. It was just an obscure little contest (IMO). I was at Subway this weekend, and didn't even see it posted anywhere in the store. Hardly anyone seems to even know about it. I couldn't figure out what people were so upset about.

 

Now, it seems, some have jumped on the anti-whiner bandwagon. And, others are building an anti-anti-whiner bandwagon. I certainly didn't mean to start anything like this!

 

I apologize if I hurt your feelings.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

I'll be leaving now. I have a tile making class in an hour, and I need to get dinner on the stove. Thanks for a great discussion, and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

 

Blessings,

Suzanne

 

 

 

:grouphug: Friends?

[Leah]

I think my point has been pretty clear.

 

A company can create a contest of any kind that does not violate state or federal laws.

 

And the buying public can respond as they see fit.

 

It makes sense to me that homeschoolers (who read lots of books and eat lots of sandwiches) would react to being excluded from a writing contest designed by companies they give their money to. Sure, those companies CAN design their contests any (legal) way they want. And they can ALSO expect people to react as they see fit.

 

:iagree: What she said! I agree that Subway can hold this type of contest, just like I could run contest that was only open to homeschoolers. Now depending on my market, this might be a good idea and it might not. Clearly Subway did not think through the customer implications of this contest and that is there problem. So I think people can write letters and should if they care. I do not see the need for AFA and HSLDA to step in though...

[PrairieAir]

Individuals and groups absolutely have the right to "vote with their feet" or to refuse patronage to a place of business whose practices they do not agree with. However, I think the bigger problem here is the lack of thought that is sometimes put into these little campaigns. I know I get around 10 emails a week--always from the same individuals, many of them repeats--calling for me to write my congressman or some business or to boycott this or that business. Some of them are based on urban legends that continue to get passed around without anyone ever doing a quick fact check. Some of them, like the one I received about Subway, are legitimate.

 

Even the legitimate appeals for activism are generally poorly thought out, though. Someone in this thread said that they wrote Subway without really considering the issue because they saw it as a homeschool pride and support thing. I'll admit that when I got the email my first thought was, "How dare they exclude homeschoolers?!?" Then I read the details of the contest and the prize being awarded and thought, "Well now, I guess that makes sense." How many people who responded stopped to think it through? How many just shot off a quick email or letter in the heat of the moment? I really don't believe this was about excluding homeschoolers because they don't like them, but about whether or not the prize was appropriate for a small family group versus a larger school where many children could benefit.

 

I can probably count on one hand the calls for activism I've received which made sense and had a logical plan. Most of these emails come from homeschoolers in the name of preserving our homeschooling rights. The rest come from my mom and her crazy sister and a few from my MIL.:D Most of them are just deleted, but occasionally I feel the need to tell people to slow down and think through what they're upset about or suggesting doing. They usually aren't very happy about it, but I have that same freedom of speech they want to exercise;) That's my biggest beef. I think people need to Stop. And. Think. Then go ahead with your email and letter writing and boycotting campaigns.

 

And, yeah, the sense of entitlement that some homeschoolers (not necessarily all who wrote to Subway) have bothers me. Some of the people who would complain about this contest or claim they should be able to purchase gifts and books for their own entertainment on a teacher's discount or whose children participate in Book It but never actually read the books would also complain about people who feel they are entitled to things the government has to offer. (Yes, I know some who fit in every one of those categories mentioned. I know it's not everyone, too.)

 

As for the question of whether I would call any group of people I care about whiners to their faces? Well, yes, I would. And I have. I say it to my children all the time. I've said it to a few choice others who are closer to me and I've said it lightly in a homeschool group setting. Perhaps this is another case of tone not being discernible through written communication?

[ticklbee]

I've come into this discussion very late and after having read all 12 pages I've come to this conclusion:

 

Homeschoolers are very passionate people! :)

[I talk to the trees]

Um, didn't someone promise me some ice cream? ;):biggrinjester:

I heard rumors of Jamocha Almond Fudge a few pages back...

-Robin

[TravelingChris]

I wrote a letter to the company and gave them my stance. I was very disappointed with their exclusion of homeschoolers. I wrote early and have gotten a different response from the company than was published. Mine was directly related to what I had said (namely they could structure the contest so homeschoolers give the 5000 prize to a local school, community center, park, or some such group.)

 

Will I go back to Subway? Probably sometime since they wrote a nice letter to me with regrets about not thinking through the contest rules more fully. I will, however, try Quizno's first which I have never tried yet.

[unsinkable]

If you'll look at the post just above yours, you'll see that the OP confirms that my interpretation of her post was correct.

 

You're right.

 

I must have been typing my post to you as Suzanne was posting hers.

[unsinkable]

This is a general question to anyone who cares to answer it:

 

If the homeschoolers who are writing to Subway to complain aren't complaining about missing a chance to win prizes, what are they complaining about?

 

I mean this in all sincerity. Please don't take offense and write back that it is obvious or clear or any other such synonym.

[I talk to the trees]

This is a general question to anyone who cares to answer it:

 

If the homeschoolers who are writing to Subway to complain aren't complaining about missing a chance to win prizes, what are they complaining about?

 

I mean this in all sincerity. Please don't take offense and write back that it is obvious or clear or any other such synonym.

 

A very good question! My real issue with HS kids being excluded from any competition (not sweepstakes, mind you, but a contest involving the judging of someone's work) is the attitude that "Oh, the homeschoolers are too smart, and of course they would be, having the advantage of one-on-one tutoring. Let's make sure the poor little ps kids (who aren't getting the education they deserve) don't have to compete with that." That's the attitude that gets under my skin. And yeah, I know. I need thicker skin.

 

Does that make sense? And even having said that, I still think a company should be able to determine the rules for giving things away without fear of legal action.

 

-Robin

[Phred]

I got a notice from HSLDA that Subway has now apologized for offending homeschoolers in their recent promotion. They're going to have another promotion soon that will include homeschoolers. That's nice.

 

But, I feel that it shouldn't have been necessary for them to apologize. I don't believe that they had anything to apologize for. I feel that all the hullabulloo over this little contest has given homeschoolers a bad rep. It's reminded me of the time my daughter got invited to a girl's birthday party, and my little boy whined because he wasn't invited, too. He didn't understand that it was a private party, and the hosts could invite, or exclude, anyone they chose. I was able to explain to him that it was a girls' party, and eventually he got it. I gave him some leeway for his outburst, and some ice cream. He was only 4 years old, after all.

 

But, I don't understand why the adults in this most recent scenario couldn't "get it". This was a contest put on by private companies. It was designed for school children to be able to do something nice for their friends at school. It wasn't designed to be the writing competition to end all writing competitions. It wasn't meant to prove once and for all who was the best writer in the country. It was a promotion for fitness, and a reason for parents to get involved in their kids' education. And, if it got people to buy a few more sandwiches or a couple more books, then all the better.

 

If anything, excluding homeschoolers was a compliment! It meant that somewhere, in some conference room, someone probably said, "You know, a homeschooler may just win this thing, and then what are we going to do?"

So, they made a quick decision to just exclude homeschoolers.

 

They didn't realize that many homeschoolers were a bunch of whiners. I imagine that, if they had originally set up the contest to include homeschoolers, but made the contingency that the winners had to give their prizes away, there would have been an uproar! What? My kid is the best writer in the country, and you want him to give his well-deserved prize to the local public school!?!?! Outrageous! Well, I never!

 

Okay, I'm donning my tomato-proof suit.

Anyone dare to join me?

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

[swellmomma]

I don't care that subway excluded hsers, heck as a Canadian I am excluded from contests like this all the time. I don't even care that people wrote letters to Subway etc. What I do care about are the "victim" type letters that circulated all of my email lists(and I am on close to a dozen or more of them), crying "Subway HATES hsers", "Boycott subway", I even got one eluding that Subway was like Nazi germany only allowing certain types of people. It's those types of messages that irked me. They are absolute rubbish, and yes those posters are whiners.

[Robin in Tx]

A very good question! My real issue with HS kids being excluded from any competition (not sweepstakes, mind you, but a contest involving the judging of someone's work) is the attitude that "Oh, the homeschoolers are too smart, and of course they would be, having the advantage of one-on-one tutoring. Let's make sure the poor little ps kids (who aren't getting the education they deserve) don't have to compete with that." That's the attitude that gets under my skin. And yeah, I know. I need thicker skin.

 

Does that make sense? And even having said that, I still think a company should be able to determine the rules for giving things away without fear of legal action.

 

-Robin

 

But are we sure that was the motivation behind excluding homeschoolers in this case? I thought the reason why is because they wanted to make it a contest for winning equipment for the student's school.

 

The contest was open for private schools, too, and they generally have an academic advantage of public school kids. That's actually the reason why homeschoolers in my area thought they deserved the chance to win the equipment... in Tx, homeschools are legally recognized as private schools, and since the contest was open to private schools, they felt they had every right to participate in the contest and win the equipment, and some have said they won't buy from Subway again until Subway offers homeschoolers a similar contest with similar prizes. For those people it was definitely about the prize.

 

My question would be, how could Subway have done this differently. If they want to make a small donation of athletic equipment to an elementary school, and they want students to compete academically for their school to win the award, how else could they have structured the contest?

 

And I said I was bowing out of this :)

[ShelzNH]

And can I just add that it really bothers me to see homeschoolers use their teacher discounts at Borders or Barnes and Noble for purchases which clearly are not for *school*? Ugh.:glare:

 

I know teachers who do this too. It certainly isn't just homeschoolers...

[Sebastian (a lady)]

You are aware that there are homeschoolers who are very upset and writing letters and boycotting Subway because they have been denied the opportunity to win $5000 worth of athletic equipment for their personal use in their own back yard, right? Because after all, they are a school too, right? Yes, they have a right to that reaction and I'd fight for that right any time any day, as I would my own right to say what I think about it :).

 

Maybe some of the differing reactions stem from how this played out on different forums and email lists. For example, I saw many people react to the No homeschoolers allowed rule but always tempered by the suggestion that this or that group could benefit from the equipment. I personally didn't see anyone suggest that they should get the $5000 value award for their own individual use. Now the $100 gift basket would have most welcome at our house. And my kids would have loved just being recognized, in the same way that they love the bookmarks from Zoobooks for submitting contributions that were good enough for their website.

I never felt discriminated against. I did feel insulted in a "No Irish Need Apply" sort of way. And my reaction was to get a real craving for a Quizno's sandwich (we will probably have a random act of fitness and walk over to the one at the mall tomorrow for lunch). As an occasional Subway customer, I did feel inclined to communicate my sense that I'd been insulted. Not in order to demand restitution, but to help them see that they had in fact offended part of their customer base.

 

*BTW, I realize that No Irish Need Apply signs are in fact discrimination. That is simply the phrase that kept coming to mind when I thought of No homeschoolers allowed.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I just jumped on my proud to be a homeschooler bandwagon and forgot that as a conservative, who beliefs in capitalism and free trade, that signing this was sort of against my beliefs. After all it's subway's content, subway's money, and subway's rules.

 

So this was great for me. Next time I'll think a little more about petitions I sign, even if they are supposedly pro-homeschooling.

 

While it is always good to think twice before hitting send, I think that sending a comment to the company fits perfectly in a market economy. Company A holds a promotion to foster a good image for its brand. Said promotion offends a portion of the customer base. Company B profits from the mistake of Company B. Possibly Company A learns to word its contests more delicately.

The invisible hand at work.

 

A non-market response would have been to try to get a law passed that all contests must include homeschoolers (especially red-headed, left-handed homeschoolers) or to retain a lawyer to sue the company.

[Parrothead]

If you're not sorry, don't pretend to be. Stand by what you did or said and don't back down just to please others.:rant:

:iagree:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This is a general question to anyone who cares to answer it:

 

If the homeschoolers who are writing to Subway to complain aren't complaining about missing a chance to win prizes, what are they complaining about?

 

I mean this in all sincerity. Please don't take offense and write back that it is obvious or clear or any other such synonym.

 

No this is a pretty good question in my mind. It never occured to me that we should get $5000 worth of exercise equipment (although I would have loved to donate it to the local scout council or to the Boys and Girls Club whose camps we enjoy).

I was complaining about what appeared to be a knee jerk exclusion of homeschoolers. About the lack of thought that went into writing the contest rules (ie, excluding a group on the main page, vs. a qualification of the awardees in the fine print).

I was bothered by the exclusion because it reminded me of the exclusion of homeschoolers from science fairs in Texas a few years back. Because it smacked of a sense of disdain for homeschoolers - a sense that they didn't want to be bothered with entries from homeschoolers(I didn't think that it was because they thought homeschoolers would win all the prizes).

I was bothered because I follow the situation for homeschoolers in Germany closely and it concerns me when I see something that marginalizes homeschoolers here.

 

And I've responded on this thread entirely too often for one day.