I feel a need to get this off my chest. Re: Whining Moms

[unsinkable]

My goodness, yes they have the right to choose who to have a contest open to but how many times do you want to see, "no home schools allowed/accepted"??? I have a right to voice my opinion, to write letters or call whomever I please, no matter what my reasoning.

 

To berate or judge others for speaking up is not doing anyone any favors. See, I would never give just one or two children a treat without treating all those present but that's just me. As far as appeasement, they addressed the issue and their follow-up will be the end result. Complaining on a homeschool board is not proactive, it doesn't DO anything. Who's really wanting the pat on the head here?

 

Just because you have a "right" to do something doesn't mean that you are doing the correct thing.

[Trivium Academy]

Suzanne,

I wasn't personally offended, but the comments I kept reading about how others are whining or going to make other homeschooler look bad, etc. I searched the news websites for this story and it's just a little blimp and only about the apology- this is more of an internet story than on tv. I did hear it on Neal Boortz (Talk Radio show) this weekend and he was miffed about it too.

 

Subway has had another PR plunder before, read http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/05/subway_bans_homeschooled_kids.html

 

My point is that we each have a voice, we can use it or not- it shouldn't be ridiculed or judged when others don't agree.

[clwcain]

My point is that we each have a voice, we can use it or not- it shouldn't be ridiculed or judged when others don't agree.

 

Do you not find this statement to contradict itself?

[Trivium Academy]

Lol, having a right to do something and exercising that right is up to the individual- it shouldn't matter if another feels it is correct or incorrect.

[GreenKitty]

Thanks for that link Jessica, it was a good read. :)

[j.griff]

Thus morality is relative, :lol:

[Trivium Academy]

"Shouldn't be" is not to imply that it doesn't happen, only that if we were to mind our own p's and q's, there wouldn't be the need to critique others' personal decisions.

[unsinkable]

Some guy is on Rush Limbaugh talking about this right now!

[unsinkable]

The caller say Subway let itself be bullied by a special interest group (homeschoolers.)

 

Rush thinks it's absurb that Subway has to give money to public schools.

[Trivium Academy]

Now this did hurt my feelings. Thanks.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

I agree. We each have a voice; we can use it or not, and we shouldn't be ridiculed for having a differing opinion.

 

I never answered your original question, though. To me, whining is different than voicing an opinion. Whining carries a "poor me; I'm so abused; I don't deserve this mistreatment" kind of tone. I don't really feel that I've been mistreated by others' whining, so I don't think I'm whining about the whining. Good question, though. I had to think about that one. :)

 

 

Edited to add: Thanks for the link for the article. I wasn't aware that this story was known outside homeschooling circles. Interesting.

[j.griff]

Wow. That was not my intent at all. I'm a bit shocked. You said that it "shouldn't matter" if someone else thinks something is right or not, and so I see that as saying morality is relative. I think that it was morally "wrong" for people to protest this contest. You seem to think it is "wrong" to protest such protest. :D

No offense intended.

[*anj*]

Maybe, but I'm not comfortable telling a donor that their donation is just not great enough, kwim? I'm sure there are plenty of schools that would love to have the equipment that $5000 could buy.

Well, that's true. I did a very preliminary search and found a couple of sites that specialize in that kind of thing and depending on their needs, a school could indeed get something decent for that $5000.

Here's one.

And another.

 

Oh, I agree with that, but those are deserved images.

Well yeah, but that's not what I meant. I'm not arguing at all the extent to which they deserve their images. I'm just saying that protection of "the brand" is a high motivator for companies. And that's not even a criticism, because that's how marketing works.

 

 

The majority of the public probably doesn't know about this... but I believe it's gotten more press than you realize. Yes, it does bother me when a group like HSLDA gets a hold of an issue like this and acts as though they represent most, if not all, homeschoolers.

As for public knowledge, you may be right. It's just that I haven't heard it discussed by anyone but homeschoolers. But yes, it's quite possible that it's gotten more press than I realize.

As for HSLDA: they are starting to bug me more and more. And I don't want to go off on a tangent about them, but they're turning into the Al Sharpton of the homeschooling movement. Yikes! Mention homeschooling and they're getting whiplash trying to run over and hear what you're saying so they can go after you. I want to like them. I do think they do some good work, but yeesh!

 

And yeah, I agree that it would be unreasonable for an individual homeschooling family to win the whole enchilada and keep it in their back yard. :001_smile:

[Robin in Tx]

Technically, though, if you're going to argue that someone has the right to voice their opinion, then you have to argue that others' opinions about those opinions have the right to be voiced as well.

[clwcain]

As for HSLDA: they are starting to bug me more and more. And I don't want to go off on a tangent about them, but they're turning into the Al Sharpton of the homeschooling movement.

 

Or what "Shoutin'" Bill Donahue has done for Catholics. *grumble*

 

I have a very vulgar expression I use when faced with such reflexive hysteria.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

Yes! Jamocha Almond Fudge for everyone!

 

Or, vanilla. Whatever floats your boat! :D

[*anj*]

Or what "Shoutin'" Bill Donahue has done for Catholics. *grumble*

 

I have a very vulgar expression I use when faced with such reflexive hysteria.

 

Umm, yeah. Don't get me started on him either.

I have a dear friend who knew and worked with him personally and well, yeah. 'Nuff said.

[Jami]

 

And yeah, I agree that it would be unreasonable for an individual homeschooling family to win the whole enchilada and keep it in their back yard. :001_smile:

 

 

Here's one thought I had...Would it also be unreasonable for a child in a very wealthy, well-equipped school district to win? I mean, from what I know of schools in lower-income areas, the ones most likely to need gifts of equipment or books, there are also less-involved parents to encourage participation in such a contest. Sad but true. Though there may be fantastic teachers promoting it to students. It also seems that certain areas would have families less able to buy Subway or Scholastic to hear about the contest, if the schools didn't promote. It seems to me that if Scholastic and Subway really wanted to promote literacy or physical fitness in the places where it's less likely to be encouraged in the home or schools with the greatest need...then general donations are the best route. Not that better-funded schools shouldn't be able to participate in contests.... ;)

[Surfside Academy]

I personally didn't pay much attention to the entire thing but I do agree that if some people felt they were being excluded, they had every right to voice their opinion to Subway. My only caveat would be that if they did choose to write Subway (or anyone else in the future), they voice the opinions of their family only and not the "homeschooling population at large."

 

Just my humble opinion FWIW...:blush:

[Trivium Academy]

It is morally wrong to voice my opinion when I feel I should?

Who am I to report to in order to make sure I'm behaving the proper way?

 

I can respect those that say, "this doesn't bother me" or "I don't wish to participate in this debate" but for others to voice their opinion about other's personal decisions in a mean-spirited, non-productive way- I feel THAT is morally wrong. Sitting back and making comments is easy, being proactive and doing something requires effort. Who among those that wrote how horrible it was that homeschoolers protested this actually went a step further and wrote Subway saying that they support their decision to exclude home schools?

 

 

Jenn, if you were to say, "I dislike the color black", would I have any right to tell you how wrong you are for disliking black? No. I exercised my First Amendment right and did nothing wrong by contacting Subway to tell them how I felt about their exclusion of homeschool students.

 

If it were against the law to contact a corporation in which I patron and comment, yes, I'd be in the wrong. Am I doing something wrong because you say so? No.

[Caroline]

Here's one thought I had...Would it also be unreasonable for a child in a very wealthy, well-equipped school district to win? I mean, from what I know of schools in lower-income areas, the ones most likely to need gifts of equipment or books, their are also less-involved parents to encourage participation in such a contest. Sad but true. Though there may be fantastic teachers promoting it to students. It also seems that certain areas would have families less able to buy Subway or Scholastic to hear about the contest, if the schools didn't promote. It seems to me that if Scholastic and Subway really wanted to promote literacy or physical fitness in the places where it's less likely to be encouraged in the home or schools with the greatest need...then general donations are the best route. Not that better-funded schools shouldn't be able to participate in contests.... ;)

 

My children attend better funded schools, so to speak. I cannot say for certain, but I imagine if our school were to win, the equipment would be donated to our sister school, which is not so well funded. I base this on the fact that we have a line item in our PTA budget which is 20% of our income that is donated to the sister school. Even when my kids attended only a moderately funded school, we donated part of our PTA budget to another not so well funded school.

[*anj*]

Here's one thought I had...Would it also be unreasonable for a child in a very wealthy, well-equipped school district to win?

 

Oh yes. And I said as much in my original post way back when this first started. I have an elementary school just down the street from my home, and they have very nice equipment. I don't think that a school in my town has the need for that money. Which is not to say that I'm delighted to fund (with my tax dollars) every little building addition and turf laying project that they put on the ballot. I live in a truly middle class town. There are wealthier towns nearby, there are poorer towns nearby. I would love to see that money be awarded to a child from a poorer town. But as you've said the odds are stacked in the favor of the kid from the richer town, the better school system.

[Robin in Tx]

They could also install basketball nets and completely outfit a baseball program.

 

I guess the point I was trying to make is that at least they have chosen this (fitness, particularly children's fitness) to promote. Unlike another store I was in last week that tried to get me to buy expensive bottled water so that $0.10 could go towards building a well in an undeveloped country. Not that that isn't a noble cause, but still...

 

I agree with you completely on the HSLDA thing. We've got an alternative organization in Texas, thankfully. They present themselves with much more respect and civility, imo.

[Jami]

Oh yes. And I said as much in my original post way back when this first started. I have an elementary school just down the street from my home, and they have very nice equipment. I don't think that a school in my town has the need for that money. Which is not to say that I'm delighted to fund (with my tax dollars) every little building addition and turf laying project that they put on the ballot. I live in a truly middle class town. There are wealthier towns nearby, there are poorer towns nearby. I would love to see that money be awarded to a child from a poorer town. But as you've said the odds are stacked in the favor of the kid from the richer town, the better school system.

 

I lived in St. Louis, where the city schools are pretty awful, and the board incompetent enough to lose control to the state dept. of ed. And I never minded the thought that my tax dollars might improve those schools for the children unfortunate enough to not have other options. Though the money there was so mismanaged...probably better to just buy books myself and hand them out to neighbor kids.

[Robin in Tx]

Jami, this is a good point, but this is probably why the donation is so modest ($5,000). It's not about doing a complete makeover of an athletic program... it's about encouraging a child to write an essay and enter it in a contest and trying hard at something that will potentially benefit the greater good in their immediate community. Which I think is a good thing.

 

OF course, as anj said, it's about corporate image as well.

[j.griff]

I'm really not trying to be a pain here, and I think I'll just bow out of this conversation, because it appears that many are taking my words here a bit too personally. I have not intended to be offensive to anyone in this thread. I was just sharing MY opinion. And to clarify, *I* think it was wrong for a group of people to publicly bully (that is JMHO, I can agree to disagree) a company into giving them what they want, and in the meantime cause a label to be applied to the broader group. And yes, as a matter of fact LOTS of us who disagreed with this whole fiasco DID write Subway and let them know how absurd we thought it was. I've seen "letters" where people were fighting for 'all homeschoolers'. I don't think THAT is morally right.

I'm done.

[Mrs Mungo]

I agree with whomever said we have bigger fish to fry.

 

And to Trivium Academy (I am committing the cardinal sin here of only reading the first and last page, please forgive me) I disagree where you say:

Jenn, if you were to say, "I dislike the color black", would I have any right to tell you how wrong you are for disliking black? No. I exercised my First Amendment right and did nothing wrong by contacting Subway to tell them how I felt about their exclusion of homeschool students.

 

If it were against the law to contact a corporation in which I patron and comment, yes, I'd be in the wrong. Am I doing something wrong because you say so? No.

 

I understand the intent of your post. However, the First Amendment works both ways. Yes, if she says she doesn't like black then you also have the right to tell her she's wrong. Maybe you'll both learn a little something from the discussion, maybe you won't but that doesn't mean anyone on either side is wrong for expressing their opinion.

[Trivium Academy]

You're right. :)

[Robin in Tx]

Who among those that wrote how horrible it was that homeschoolers protested this actually went a step further and wrote Subway saying that they support their decision to exclude home schools?

 

I guess that would be me, although I didn't word it like that. I said what I felt... that I understood what their original intent was, and that I supported their right to promote a contest amongst children who attend a school to win equipment for said school. I also suggested that if they wanted to do a contest like this again in the future and include homeschoolers somehow, to make the grand prize go to the local school (or park) where the homeschooler lives. The student would still get the basket of goodies. Sounds reasonable to me!

[at the beach]

Just something interesting I came across about Subway when I did an internet search of Subway and homeschoolers. In 2004, Subway had an obese Lady Liberty in German Franchise stores mocking Americans as being fat with the movie Super Size Me coming out. An uproar came about over that, too, evidently. Americans were offended that Subway was mocking them and portraying them as fat in Europe. Apparently, Subway got rid of the overweight Statue of Liberty pretty quickly.

 

Anita

[Joanne]

Again, though, if someone is offering to give their money away, even for a scholarship, they should have the freedom to give it to whomever they choose. If they choose to exclude homeschoolers, for whatever reason, then they have that right. And, if they want to offer a merit scholarship, they are free to offer it based on merit alone, irrespective of need.

 

This is what I don't understand. Yes, the publically held company, motivated by profit and the necessary PR has the right to design the contest as they see fit. And the buying public, including excluded homeschoolers have every right to take a verbal, written and money stand by responding to the perceived exclusion based on how their children are formally educated.

 

I understand not being upset by the design of the contest. I don't understand the expectation that those who *are* upset be passive or that we, as consumers with specific values, opinions and quirks, not follow up with appropriate action to communicate our displeasure. :confused:

[Trivium Academy]

Thank you Joanne, much better said than I did! But technically, I'm only in 3rd grade in my re-education so I should be better at articulating after my logic stage, lol.

[Kelli in TN]

I agree with whomever said we have bigger fish to fry.

.

 

 

Dat was me!! From down here in little ol' Tennessee where your homeschool diploma precludes you from working in daycare centers or serving as a police officer!!! We definitely have bigger fish to fry.

[Felicia]

Then why are you complaining about people complaining about people complaining about contest rules? ;)

 

Completely off the subject....but I just busted out laughing when I read it and saw your avatar...... :smilielol5:

[Mrs Mungo]

Dat was me!! From down here in little ol' Tennessee where your homeschool diploma precludes you from working in daycare centers or serving as a police officer!!! We definitely have bigger fish to fry.

 

I think I said in the other thread that I felt pretty meh about them excluding homeschoolers. There are issues I'm passionate about. I write letters, contact my members of Congress, all sorts of things.

 

I guess I just don't feel invested in this one way or the other. I would never say Jessica, Joanne or others who feel differently are wrong for their feelings or their own brand of activism, it's just not what *I* feel strongly about.

 

I think maybe my cold is making me incoherent. Is this making sense to anyone or is it just gobbledygook?

[Joanne]

I would never say Jessica, Joanne or others who feel differently are wrong for their feelings or their own brand of activism, it's just not what *I* feel strongly about.

 

FTR, I'm dispassionate about this issue and this exclusion. I'm indifferent. I get those who are upset; but I'm not one of them.

 

I *am*, however, in support of those who do feel it was an unwise to exclude paying customers (of books and sandwiches) and definitely in support of disgruntled consumers of any kind (including homeschoolers) from participating in exercising their right to express themselves in print and dollars.

[unsinkable]

FTR, I'm dispassionate about this issue and this exclusion. I'm indifferent. I get those who are upset; but I'm not one of them.

 

I *am*, however, in support of those who do feel it was an unwise to exclude paying customers (of books and sandwiches) and definitely in support of disgruntled consumers of any kind (including homeschoolers) from participating in exercising their right to express themselves in print and dollars.

 

 

Help me understand your point. Is it that any business that holds a contest should open it to anyone?

[Felicia]

This is what I don't understand. Yes, the publically held company, motivated by profit and the necessary PR has the right to design the contest as they see fit. And the buying public, including excluded homeschoolers have every right to take a verbal, written and money stand by responding to the perceived exclusion based on how their children are formally educated.

 

I understand not being upset by the design of the contest. I don't understand the expectation that those who *are* upset be passive or that we, as consumers with specific values, opinions and quirks, not follow up with appropriate action to communicate our displeasure. :confused:

 

 

I completely agree here. I personally also agree with Jessica. I will say that I did contact Subway. However, I did not berate them. I politely told them my position and that I was disappointed my children would be excluded. There are many who protest many different things. I don't agree with them all. But everyone is certainly, imo, entitled to their own opinions. If the protest, no matter what the subject or issue, is done in a polite and respectful tone, then I say what harm is done. It is when people get mad and name calling starts is when productive communication falls apart.

[Joanne]

Is it that any business that holds a contest should open it to anyone?

 

I think my point has been pretty clear.

 

A company can create a contest of any kind that does not violate state or federal laws.

 

And the buying public can respond as they see fit.

 

It makes sense to me that homeschoolers (who read lots of books and eat lots of sandwiches) would react to being excluded from a writing contest designed by companies they give their money to. Sure, those companies CAN design their contests any (legal) way they want. And they can ALSO expect people to react as they see fit.

[Night Elf]

Okay. The implication here is that people who disagree and voice their negative opinions are whiners. I guess that means our Founding Fathers (of America) were big ole whiners! And I'm happy they were. :)

[Robin in Tx]

But Joanne, your position is really not much different from mine. Yet, I still feel that some of the reactions were completely over the top. Not all. Just some. We're commenting on the ones who were over the top, that's all.

 

You are aware that there are homeschoolers who are very upset and writing letters and boycotting Subway because they have been denied the opportunity to win $5000 worth of athletic equipment for their personal use in their own back yard, right? Because after all, they are a school too, right? Yes, they have a right to that reaction and I'd fight for that right any time any day, as I would my own right to say what I think about it :).

[Sheila in OK]

I don't have time to read all the replies (dialup here, ugh), but the OP's comments pretty much reflected my 10yo dd's opinion. Too funny!

 

Sheila (who is being chatty today as I have a few things I need to post on the sale/swap board and need to get my posts up!)

[...................]

further up before it became a debate, but this was very interesting and I'm glad the OP posted!

 

I sent an email...:blush:

 

I didn't even consider the other side of it, or that it would give us a bad rap. I just jumped on my proud to be a homeschooler bandwagon and forgot that as a conservative, who beliefs in capitalism and free trade, that signing this was sort of against my beliefs. After all it's subway's content, subway's money, and subway's rules.

 

So this was great for me. Next time I'll think a little more about petitions I sign, even if they are supposedly pro-homeschooling.

[Kay in Cal]

"you better give me a chance to win that equipment or I'm never buying a sandwich from you again" types.

 

In fact, many homeschoolers are quite willing to complain about others of us being "whiners", or imply that the issue was wanting to "win that equipment", even though those who did respond have repeatedly said that wasn't the issue.

 

There are lots of "types" of people I might find annoying, and many people I find annoying on this board... but I hope that in general I have the maturity to refrain from calling names or posting threads just to sling an insult. See how diverse we are? Score one for you--you hurt some feelings! :hurray:

[Robin in Tx]

But Kay, there really are those out there who are making those demands. Obviously my comments don't apply to you!

 

I've said this in so many places in this thread that I am not certain saying it again will make any difference at all, but I like you so much I think another try is worth it: I, personally, am not at all put off by anyone who is slighted by Subway's exclusion or who has written them to expression their disapproval. I *am* put off by those who want the opportunity to win the equipment for their back yard and are mad that they've been denied that and are boycotting Subway because of it. Just because you are not one of those doesn't mean they don't exist! You think we're talking about all protestors, including you, when in fact we are talking about a small group that obviously *doesn't* include you.

 

I hope it's clearer now...

Robin

[Robin in Tx]

And let me clarify something else, Kay... I have not read ONE single post about this on these boards. I've managed to either miss them or overlook them, which I don't know, but all my exposure to this has been through email stuff I've received. When I read Suzanne's post, which referred to an email she received, I responded based on what I've seen elsewhere... never once were my comments intended as stabs against anyone here. If I had seen threads or posts about this here, I probably would have commented and made my opinions known then and there, instead of here. But as it was, I was just like Suzanne... commenting on a bunch of stuff I've been getting in emails, yahoo groups, etc. I think most everyone here knows me well enough by now to know that if I disagreed with someone enough to actually post my disagreement with them, I would do it directly in response to them, not somewhere else, talking about them in third person, as though they weren't even in the room. I guess you can say that's the "type" I am :).

 

Peace?

[Kay in Cal]

OP says that:

 

"I feel that all the hullabaloo over this little contest has given homeschoolers a bad rep. It's reminded me of the time my daughter got invited to a girl's birthday party, and my little boy whined because he wasn't invited, too..."

 

"But, I don't understand why the adults in this most recent scenario couldn't "get it"."

 

"They didn't realize that many homeschoolers were a bunch of whiners. I imagine that, if they had originally set up the contest to include homeschoolers, but made the contingency that the winners had to give their prizes away, there would have been an uproar! What? My kid is the best writer in the country, and you want him to give his well-deserved prize to the local public school!?!?! Outrageous! Well, I never!"

 

That pretty clearly is aimed at everyone who responded to Subway as "whiners". Even if they included homeschoolers, we (those who wrote letters) would want prizes, she speculates.

 

You've said repeatedly that you agree with OP, then tried to back away from that statement when people got hurt. I suspect you and OP are using some hyperbole, but to sling arrows and then say "I wasn't insulting YOU" is either disingenuous or tremendously self-unaware.

 

Words are real, in person or on the internet. I would never get up in front of a group of people that I cared about IRL (church, say) and characterize them as a bunch of whiners--or even complain about "others" who just happened to share the same beliefs and behaviors, "but I don't mean YOU, of course". Or sit quietly aside and clap as someone else said such a thing. I believe that true community is fostered only when we hold ourselves to same standards of behavior.

 

I'm not mad, I don't give neg rep, nor will I for any reason. I just feel hurt to be called a "whiner" in public here in my internet home away from home. I'm sure I"ll recover soon, but I felt that it was important to speak out because I suspect there are others with hurt feelings who won't respond, they'll just slink off and feel bad.

[Kay in Cal]

Ok.. I'll buy that. I was involved in other threads, and the OP was aimed straight at them. She even posted an announcement in one that she was staring a new thread about the "whining".

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=261640#poststop

 

Of course I think everyone has a right to thier own opinion, I just don't like threads being started just to be mean. Peace would be great.

[Jackie in AR]

Please. The OP used an example of how her 4 year old couldn't understand why he wasn't included in a party until she explained the situation to him in a way he could understand. Then she gave him some ice cream. She didn't call anyone a 4 year old.

 

 

If you'll look at the post just above yours, you'll see that the OP confirms that my interpretation of her post was correct.

[Danestress]

Duh. I was being stupid about this coming into the middle. Sorry to anyone who wasted their time reading that:) I thought Trivium was saying it shouldn't matter to individuals what Subway does. Doh. I'm having a really hard day today, so please excuse my divided, distracted brain!