Hit a brick wall in math with 15yo dd

[CAMom]

Hi All~

 

I'm hoping for some advice here.

 

My 15yo dd is entering 10th grade. We are still trying to make it through Alg. 1 over the summer from last school year.

 

She is super frustrated! She says she hates math and never wants to do it again. She says she just doesn't understand it at all. She did fine math wise up until Saxon 8/7 which she did in 7th grade. Then she did pre-algebra with Chalkdust in 8th grade.

 

We've been using Chalkdust Algebra 1 for almost a year now and she's just not getting it. I switched from Saxon to Chalkdust because I used Chalkdust for her older brother. He loved it but I think anything would have worked for him. He's passionate about math (taken up through Calc 2 at the cc, got an 800 on the SAT2 Math 2, plans on minoring in math at UCLA in the fall, goes to math seminars for fun, etc.)

 

I don't expect her to love math. ;) She does want to go to college. She wants to be an author and is also contemplating becoming a marriage and family therapist.

 

Honestly, this is the first major struggle we've had subject wise in all 12 years of our homeschooling so far. Everything else has come relatively easy for both of them.

 

Do I switch curriculum? Do I get her an outside tutor? Do I ....what do I do?:)

 

I'd love some seasoned advice!

 

Thanks for anything you can offer!

[butterflymommy]

Can you pay her brother to tutor her?

[CAMom]

Can you pay her brother to tutor her?

 

She said she doesn't understand him. Plus, he's moving to college in less than two weeks so he won't be accessible to her.:bigear:

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that Chalkdust is the hardest Algebra 1 class out there. Video Text is a close second.

 

Saxon is a good, solid program. Algebra 1 is actually much more focussed than 87, and in some ways that makes it easier. Of course, by its nature algebra is more abstract than what goes before, but I think that Saxon would be worth looking at again.

[In The Great White North]

I would switch back to Saxon. It worked for her.

[Chris in PA]

My dd did great with Lial's Introductory Algebra. She is a writer and really dislikes math. It was the first program she truly understood. We are starting Intermediate Algebra in the fall.

[Teachin'Mine]

I would let her review Saxon 8/7 this summer just to become familiar again with their way of doing things, and then have her go into Saxon algebra 1. She could still graduate having completed through pre-calculus with algebra 2 in 11th and Advanced Math in 12th. Maybe she could do math year round so she'll get to what she needs for the SAT and all sooner. JMO.

[black_midori]

I also vote for changing math programs - I'd also add in the Life of Fred Algebra, as I hear that it is a "fun extra" that tells how to use the math in real life (and that may help her to grasp it better).

 

FWIW - I am totally with her on not wanting her bro as a tutor!! Both my brothers are extremely smart & work in computers - I don't even know what they do, really, because every time they tell me it goes WAY WAY over my head... <g>

[BlsdMama]

I completely understand.

 

I can tell you what we personally have decided to do...

 

We're planning on having her do TT Geometry at a comfortable pace this year and then start Algebra I all over again. We tried Jacob's, TT, and Saxon. Frankly she just was NOT grasping it and this is a child who did well with Pre-Algebra and all of her math prior to 8th grade. :( She just hit a wall, like you are saying. It was very frustrating to her as a young lady who normally excels academically.

 

YMMV but this is what we decided.

[Julie in MN]

I'm a fan of Math Relief. I've used it with a struggling 10th grader and a mathy 8th grader. I've looked at or used quite a few things and never been as happy as I am with MR.

 

That said, I can't imagine that she doesn't get *any* of algebra? Have you sat with her to decipher what she's not getting? By this coming year, it seems to me that at least some of it should start to sink in. Unless she's missing some basic piece that you could catch if you watch her work or go over her work for a while.

 

Julie

[My Three J's]

Oh my I could have so written this post for my ds a couple years ago. He did Singapore Math, but that only goes through 6th grade. In 7th he did pre-algebra with Math-u-see and did great. But in 8th grade I bought Teaching Textbooks Algebra because I had heard so many good

 

things about it. Well, it just did not work for ds and we had many tears and much frustration throughout that year. In 9th grade I decided that since we'd had so much success with Math-u-see that we'd go back to it and I'm so glad we did. He just finished geometry with them and will actually say now that he likes math and that he's good at it. Now this is not an ad for Math-u-See--I have a friend whose daughter is not enjoying the same algebra that my son loved, but maybe just a suggestion to go back to what she did like. If she was doing well in Saxon then I would consider going back to that as another poster suggested.

 

One thing I do appreciate about Math-u-see is that there is someone else explaining the math to them. That was helpful because I am not so math-inclined :001_smile: so maybe a program similar to that or TT or a tutor would work well.

 

Hope you find something!

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

Have you checked out Khan Academy? Maybe the different teacher will help. My dd hit a brick wall with CD Pre-Algebra. I don't know why but she did. We are finishing pre-algebra with a mix of Lials BCM, Key To, and Pre-Algebra DeMystified. Then we will go onto VideoText so I am going to ignore the post that said VideoText is a close 2nd for the hardest ;)

 

 

Sorry for the ramble, check out Khan Academy and if that does not work then I would look into Jacobs Algebra. I heard that has good, clear explanations

[readinmom]

Perhaps you can check out the Danica McKellar (Winnie Cooper/The Wonder Years) series "Math Doesn't Suck". Unfortunate title, but she has written several books directed specifically for girls. I know that there is a book for algebra. Maybe it would put the math in a different light for your dd. It is not a stand alone text, but it might help.

[Osmosis Mom]

I'd go back to Saxon Algebra 1 and let her work at her pace. Better to (re-)build confidence than totally flounder. One of my dd's totally gave up on math while for ds we spent 2 years on algebra and he is now doing just fine (or more than fine).

[CAMom]

I'd go back to Saxon Algebra 1 and let her work at her pace. Better to (re-)build confidence than totally flounder. One of my dd's totally gave up on math while for ds we spent 2 years on algebra and he is now doing just fine (or more than fine).

 

Thank you to everyone for the input so far!!:)

 

I see many of you recommend that we go back to Saxon. I mentioned that to her last night and she said, rather emphatically, "NO!!" I reminded her that she at least did B level work (if not A) through all her years of Saxon and she said she always hated Saxon. :confused:

 

Nadia, thanks for the encouragement! Rebuilding confidence is exactly what I want to do. I also appreciate you sharing that you did 2 years of algebra and then had success. I need to hold on to some hope.;)

 

The reason I had her do Chalkdust is because I already had it and, of course, had justified the cost of it when I bought it for my son since I'd be using it with her.:lol: I have Chalkdust geometry sitting waiting for us to finish algebra.:001_huh:

 

That said, I can't imagine that she doesn't get *any* of algebra? Have you sat with her to decipher what she's not getting? By this coming year, it seems to me that at least some of it should start to sink in. Unless she's missing some basic piece that you could catch if you watch her work or go over her work for a while.

 

You're right, Julie. It's not that she doesn't get any of it at all. I've tried to figure out what she's not getting but it usually ends up an exercise in futility. She gets so frustrated even talking about it.:o

 

Sometimes I think she's just decided that she can't do math and that's a big part of the wall she's hit. But, of course, she's going to have to get past this and I'm trying to help her without frustrating her.

 

I'll definitely look into the other programs mentioned here.

[Susan C.]

Sounds like us with geometry. Already owned Chalkdust. But dd could not do it. (Well she did, but it took several hours a day). I bailed about Oct. of that year and went back to BJU.

 

She thrived on BJU. You can save a little money doing the dvds online. Your dd is probably a little like mine, she needs the teacher and class every day. The BJU Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 classes are excellent. All instruction, tips, introduction, homework review, test review are on the dvds. All I had to do was correct, she did great with all classes and completed her lesson in a much more reasonable amount of time.

[Teachin'Mine]

She hasn't used Saxon since 7th grade. What she probably remembers is that it is time consuming. If you can borrow the Algebra 1 from someone, I'd just ask her to at least look through it. She may become less reluctant to try it if she finds that she's better able to understand what they're saying. Just a thought.

[Angel]

My dd plans not to go to college and she is my aspie, so take this for what it is worth ;) Her 9th grade year we tried VideoText Algebra. She had no retention nor understanding. 10th grade year we began with VT and ditched it quickly. We moved on to Life of Fred Algebra...another disaster. That's when I came here and asked what to do. Jann in TX (dear lady that she is) suggested Lial's Introductory Algebra and reassured me by letting me know that not every child will finish the "normal" college prep math courses in high school. For those children it is more about the progress they are making. We started Lial's at the very end of 10th grade and she will finish it by September and move on to Lial's Intermediate Algebra. I think my dd wasn't ready for Algebra in 9th AND didn't have the right program. Now dd has not flown through Lial's, but she is making it through and retaining most. She will graduate with Algebra I, Algebra II, and Stewardship (yes, I know that some of you don't count that as a math course, but we do).

 

Lial's was a big help. Dd needed me to be hands off and Lial's has great explanation and works her through it step by step on her own.

 

For the pp who said that they were having the dc do Geometry and then will return to Algebra I & II, I did that in school. HUGE help. I hated Geometry but Algebra I & II made much more sense in 10th and 11th grades back to back. So good luck with that!!

 

Sorry to be so wordy! Good luck!!

[AngieW in Texas]

Have you looked at Uncle Dan's Algebra? I'm trying that with my 13yo right now.

 

http://www.homespun4homeschoolers.com/

 

I really like Kinetic Books, but my youngest won't have anything to do with any math program that's on the computer. Lial's and Jacobs and Algebra I: A Fresh Approach all freaked her out.

 

Uncle Dan's is working out okay so far (just started it two weeks ago, but the others didn't last even that long). I'm just using his free worksheets right now.

[PollyOR]

Ronette, I had a very hard time when I was her age. I failed Geometry in 10th and had to retake it my senior year. I could not wrap my brain around it the first time. It was much easier my senior year. I have read that your brain needs to reach a certain developmental stage before you can understand Algebra and especially Geometry (Math people, feel free to correct me :)). Maybe time is what she needs?

 

My favorite resource for algebra is the Teaching Company's course with Dr. Sellers. I believe all high school courses are on sale right now.

 

$10 off coupon code: HSMG

Edited July 20, 2011 by PollyOR
coupon code

[rlugbill]

You might want to do a simpler algebra program first, then a more thorough one. For example, do the Key to Algebra workbooks first. Then, move to a standard Algebra book. She might enjoy Jacob's.

 

 

Don't worry so much about the end goal of where you think she should finish up in high school math. Just take her where she is. Some kids need longer to learn something than others.

[bettyandbob]

I'm going to second the suggestion to take a look at Danica McKellars books.

 

Whether you switch to another program or stay with Chalkdust, you can use Mckellar's books to reinforce and give an alternative explanation. Her explanations are clear and she provides multiple methods of solving each type of problem. For each topic in your main curriculum look it up in McKellar's books and review her explanations along with your main curriculums. She has practice problems in her books too. Her three titles cover basic math, prealgebra and algebra 1.

[Hope in God]

Maybe you could try a more hands on math curriculum like Math U See? We haven't gotten to the level that your daughter is at yet so I can't say how well it works for the high school level. At the lower levels it is great for kids who thrive with the hands-on approach.

 

Another thing that has helped us is Kumon. I don't know if you have a Kumon center where you live but Kumon really helped my daughter to relearn the basics so that she would have more confidence and would not be struggling with things that should be second nature. I also liked Kumon because my daughter had to report to them and thus was more contiencious about getting her work done and I was able to side step her math frustrations.

[EKS]

I would switch to the Lial text and go through each lesson with her to be sure she understands before letting her do the problem sets. I would also either allow her to look at the answer after she finishes every problem so that she can fix any mistakes prior to moving on to the next problem. If you don't like having her look at the answers herself, you can sit in the room with her check each one as she does it. The reason this is important is that if she gets confused about something, she is just reinforcing that misunderstanding by doing problem after problem incorrectly. It's much better to catch it in the beginning.

 

I switched to Lial's Intermediate Algebra (Alg II) when my son was halfway through Foerster's Algebra II. Since he had already learned much of what was covered, instead of presenting the lessons to him, I gave him the example problem in the text. If he could do it with no problems, then we would move on to the next example problem and I wouldn't assign problems about it (or very few). If he could do it with some reminding, then I would assign a few more problems, and if he didn't know it at all, we would go over all the example problems and I would have him do all the practice problems within the lesson and would assign all the odds on that particular topic. This approach worked very well with him. His math confidence soared and he finally started seeing connections between topics (his comment of "It's all the same!" made me so happy). This is a kid who has always tested well in math, but has always viewed math concepts and procedures as a jumble of disconnected stuff, a perception that was reinforced by years of Saxon use (IMO).

 

I hope something in here helps. The great thing about the Lial books is that you can get them used very cheaply.

[Brindee]

My dd hit a wall also. We recently got the Lial BCM book, and she worked through 3 of the chapters that she didn't understand the concepts in well. She then started the Introductory Algebra and has gotten through a couple of chapters of that now. So far this summer has been busy so she hasn't done ANY math for a month or so. :( But, she'll be able to get back to it soon, hopefully reviewing some concepts starting next week.

 

She said she really likes the way the books are set up, with the tips and problems on the side bar. We have the paperback books, NOT the hard cover ones. The hard cover books don't seem to have the side bars. She's understood the concepts with the Lial books WAY better than with TT or even Key To books! We went to Jann in TX's site and are using the exact Lial books that she suggests. I've tried other things, and she's taught math for years, so I decided to try what she recommended. I'm glad I did, it is working well!

 

I noticed someone suggested you go ahead and have her do Saxon anyway. Saxon did NOT go over well here at all! None of my kids liked it, in fact my oldest and youngest hated it! I'm thinking that if your dd said an emphatic NO!!! and told you she always hated Saxon..... then PLEASE listen to her! Sometimes they need to work through the math, because it's the math they're struggling with, not the Publisher/Curriculum. But she was so emphatic that I say Don't use Saxon again, as that would negate her strong feelings against using it! I would say the same thing about ANY curriculum a child has such a strong dislike for! That is JMHO, so you can take it or leave it as you see fit! :D

Edited July 20, 2011 by Brindee

[Tullia]

My son hit a wall with Jacobs Elementary Algebra after having used Saxon from the beginning--first at ps then at home. I still remember the sleepless nights! I'll add another vote for Lial's--the presentation is good, there are support materials available, and you can find used texts for a good price. We ended up using something else, but Lial's was definitely on my short list. Have you double-checked to be sure she's rock solid on her pre-algebra skills?

[Teachin'Mine]

Brindee I only suggested that she ask her daughter to look through the book. ;) Her daughter was doing Saxon pre-algebra in 7th grade and getting A's and B's. She's now going into 10th, has used different texts, and is lost in algebra. To me, it's worth a look see at the method which was obviously working - even though "hated." :) So I made the suggestion.

[LuvingLife]

I highly reccommend Lial's introductory algebra (algebra 1)! It has changed my life. I used to struggle in algebra until Lial's was recommended to me and once I made the switch everything clicked. I have used TT and while it is good, it was way too easy for me. I had the book finished in 4 months!

 

Now I am doing Lial's algebra 2 with Jann in Tx who is a fabulous math teacher! This saved my life!:001_smile:

[CAMom]

Thank you all so much!

 

I'm considering having her go through her current math book and just doing the "cumulative review" pages to maybe see what the extent of the problem is.

 

I looked at the Teaching Textbooks samples and I think that could be helpful for her. It seems to explain things in a more conversational way which is more her style.

 

If I went with Lial's, do I have to actually go through and teach her everything myself (or have a teacher teach it)? Is it written so the student goes through it herself?

 

My library has the Danika McKeller books so I'll check those out for her as well.

[EKS]

 

If I went with Lial's, do I have to actually go through and teach her everything myself (or have a teacher teach it)? Is it written so the student goes through it herself?

 

 

Lial's is written to the student, if that's what you mean. However, with a kid who is struggling, I think it is extremely important to go through it with her. When I did this with my son, it really only took at most a half hour of my time each day. Most of that time was spent with my son solving problems, not with me presenting stuff. Occasionally if something was completely new to me, I did the practice problems myself first to be sure I understood what was going on.

 

I actually think that having someone work with her (either you or a tutor and *not* a DVD) is more important that what text you actually use. A human will be able to catch and fix any misunderstandings that arise immediately.

[CAMom]

Lial's is written to the student, if that's what you mean. However, with a kid who is struggling, I think it is extremely important to go through it with her. When I did this with my son, it really only took at most a half hour of my time each day. Most of that time was spent with my son solving problems, not with me presenting stuff. Occasionally if something was completely new to me, I did the practice problems myself first to be sure I understood what was going on.

 

I actually think that having someone work with her (either you or a tutor and *not* a DVD) is more important that what text you actually use. A human will be able to catch and fix any misunderstandings that arise immediately.

 

Thank you! Does the Lial's text have the answers to the problems worked out step by step? Because sometimes I need that, too.;)

 

I agree that having someone work through it with her is important! We've done this all of her math life until mid this year or so when she said she wanted to do it herself. So, even though she's been using Chalkdust, we don't rely totally on the dvd.

 

In fact, when I grade her work, she and I work through the missed problems together. She tells me she understands it but then when she takes a test, she doesn't do well. She also just finally said this week (the day I posted), "I hate math! I don't understand it at all and I never want to do it again."

 

I know that she does understand some math. I know she even understands some algebra.;) But, she's obviously at a point of major discouragement and I'm trying to figure out how to help her past this while listening to how she feels about it. KWIM?

 

I'm so thankful for the help here! You all have helped me solve more than one high school problem! Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and wisdom!

[Carol in Cal.]

If you did Saxon before, did you use the DIVE CD's? Those were really helpful in our family, not because I couldn't teach the material, but because they gave other examples and explanations for it. So that way DD could read the book, watch the DIVE, and maybe get another explanation from me. It took some of the tension out of the situation (she doesn't like math) and our relationship, too. They are not that expensive if you buy a bundle from Sonlight.

[CAMom]

If you did Saxon before, did you use the DIVE CD's? Those were really helpful in our family, not because I couldn't teach the material, but because they gave other examples and explanations for it. So that way DD could read the book, watch the DIVE, and maybe get another explanation from me. It took some of the tension out of the situation (she doesn't like math) and our relationship, too. They are not that expensive if you buy a bundle from Sonlight.

 

No. We did not use the DIVE CD's. We went through 8/7 and she wasn't having any trouble with me being the teacher.

 

I'm so hesitant to go back to Saxon after her reaction to me even suggesting it. I almost think she would throw up an extra mental block just because she is already adamant that she hates Saxon.:tongue_smilie:

[kiana]

I really think that working through either with something computer-based like TT or with a tutor/you would help.

 

The reason is that you get immediate feedback so that you aren't reinforcing incorrectness. If you do 20 problems the wrong way, you're practicing your incorrectness. If, after the FIRST problem you do wrong, you know it's wrong and are told why, you aren't reinforcing.

 

ETA: I absolutely wouldn't go back to Saxon with someone who's convinced that she hates it AND that she's bad at math. You don't need to be trying to counter both of those at the same time.

[EKS]

Thank you! Does the Lial's text have the answers to the problems worked out step by step? Because sometimes I need that, too.;)

 

 

 

Lial's has the best solutions manuals I've ever come across.

 

The reasons I recommend Lial's for situations like this are:

 

It's easy to teach from in that the explanations and practice problems are right there together. The problem sets are generally divided into sections so that it is easy to assign more (or fewer) problems for a given concept. This is very helpful for kids who are switching from other programs and have holes in their understanding.

 

There is ample review for kids who need it, both end of chapter and cumulative.

 

The practice tests are very similar to the real tests.

 

You can get a test book that has something like six forms for each test, making retests less stressful.

 

As I mentioned above, the solutions manuals are amazing.

 

The concepts are sequenced so that they logically build on one another, more so than in other texts I've used.

[CAMom]

So, if I'm considering Lial's...which book am I looking at? It doesn't seem very self explanatory as to what, exactly, I would need.;)

[Carol in Cal.]

No. We did not use the DIVE CD's. We went through 8/7 and she wasn't having any trouble with me being the teacher.

 

I'm so hesitant to go back to Saxon after her reaction to me even suggesting it. I almost think she would throw up an extra mental block just because she is already adamant that she hates Saxon.:tongue_smilie:

 

Well, maybe it's not the best choice, but it is at least familiar in style. Also, for what it's worth, I thought that 87 was much harder than Algebra 1, because it is so scattered that it's hard to get your arms around the material. So FYI, Algebra 1 is a lot more focussed.

[EKS]

Assuming you're wanting the Algebra I book, this is what I'd get:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Introductory-Algebra-Developmental-Mathematics-Paperback/dp/0321279212/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1311279720&sr=8-2

 

Be sure to get one in "new" or "like new" condition as the format tends to invite people to write in the book.

 

Here's the student solutions manual (has the solutions to the odds as well as practice problems). I couldn't find a copy of the instructor solutions manual which has solutions to everything.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Student-Solutions-manual-Introductory-Algebra/dp/0321285808/ref=sr_1_19?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1311279926&sr=1-19

 

And here's a copy of the tests:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Printed-Instructors-Resource-Introductory-Algebra/dp/B000UWL2VO/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1311280027&sr=1-6

 

I don't know how many people use the tests though because there are practice tests in the book that could be used as tests. I liked having the test book because I was able to have my son use the practice test in the book for practice and the multiple test forms allowed him to retake a test if he didn't get something. But actually, he never needed to retake a test when we used Lial. Also, the test book only has answers, no solutions.

 

I hope this helps.

[blessed2five]

Hi, I just wanted to encourage you because I have been in almost the same place as you with my 15 y/o ds and algebra 1. We started last fall with Saxon and it just moved too quickly and my son also did not have the patience to sit and watch the teaching DVD's.

 

So about half way through the text I finally realized he just wasn't getting it, so we backed up to the beginning and started over. Well, by April same thing, he just wasn't understanding their teaching style and I also found their approach somewhat confusing.

 

After reading and reading the WTM posts I ordered Lial's and worked side by side him spending around an hour per day on going over problems he was not understanding. My son is the type who likes to figure things out for himself, but also tends to cut corners whenever possible. Well, during Section 4 (about 2 months into it) he hit another road block and really wasn't grasping the concepts well enough in my opinion. At that point we slowed down and did more problems together.

 

I was beginning to feel like I had failed him as a teacher because he had always done so well in Math using Saxon. I really think that some kids just take longer to grasp concepts and really get it.

 

We just finished Section 5 and he scored a 67% on his test. However, I didn't panic because when I looked carefully at the problems he misssed they were almost all careless mistakes. But just to be sure he met with an Algebra tutor who happens to be our neighbor and found him to be very helpful.

 

So hang in there and if you need to take it slowly that is okay :001_smile: That is the beauty of homeschooling, we can move at a pace that fits our child best. :001_smile:

[Katiebug_1976]

We've run into the same problem with our 15yo dd. She did just fine with math (and even really enjoyed it) up until Algebra 1. We've used LOF, Saxon & Teaching Textbooks and she just keeps getting more frustrated! So I was all set, after hearing the recommendations on this board, to use Lial's Introductory Algebra and give it a go until I ran across Kinetic Books Algebra. I had dd sit and look at the demo and she actuall got a little be excited about math again! (This is a HUGE thing for her!!). It seems to explain things in a more hands on kind of way, and I think that may just be what dd needs. So I don't have any experience with it yet (we start school on Monday), but thought I'd share with you what we found. We also have the Lial's Introductory Algebra so if Kinetic books, so somewhere between Kinetic books & Lials, we hope to get through Algebra! Good luck...I share you frustration.:grouphug:

Edited July 22, 2011 by Katiebug_1976

[SeekingHim77]

My son did the same thing. We used Math-U-See up until then and he did great with it until we hit Algebra. We started the book over again several times and he completed a book called Painless Algebra but still couldn't get more than 1/2 way through his algebra text!

 

Everything I'd ever heard about Saxon made me think that my son would hate it and he probably would have in the elementary years. Math-U-See was a perfect fit until Algebra. I finally decided to try Saxon with the Saxon Teacher CD ROMS after hearing them praised so often. Boy am I glad we did! My son is zooming through Algebra now with no problems and I am one happy momma! The Teacher CD ROMS teach the lesson and then work out every, single problem in the text while explaining the process step by step! I cannot recommend them enough! He simply clicks on the lesson, watches the tutorial and completes the assignment. After the assignment is corrected, he goes back and clicks on any individual problems he had trouble with, watches the instructor work them out and then tries again on his own. It has been the answer to prayer for us and I am so thankful we tried it!