View of Sin in the Early Church

[simka2]

A friend directed to me to this article today. I read it this evening and LOVED it.

My faith walk has been turbulent and painful. I have seen much that I could no longer stomach. The only problem is that I had had a very real encounter with Jesus at one point in my life. I couldn't just walk away from all things Christian, but I sure wanted to. On top of that there was more and more that just wasn't making sense to me.

 

Yesterday, I found myself wondering what sin is? Granted, my thoughts were running deeper than that simple question implies, but that is the simple version. Questions about the Fall, it's consequences, why Jesus really came?, and so forth.

You guys probably think I am strange for writing this all out. Truthfully, I just wanted to share this article that answered quite a few of my questions.

 

Cheers!

http://www.antiochian.org/assets/asset_manager/da42e6049df1d08bff1865c1ac19e759.pdf

[Denise in Florida]

Thanks for the link. I tagged it to read later. It sounds like the article will address some questions I have had lately. In fact, I have been praying lately to understand 'sin'.

[kamom]

This interests me but I'm lazy and don't want to think to hard. I wish someone would simplify the article for me.

[Denise in Florida]

This interests me but I'm lazy and don't want to think to hard. I wish someone would simplify the article for me.

:lol::lol: you crack me up. Hey if someone simplifies it for you would you ask them to share with me also.

[simka2]

 

This was one of my favorite parts:

 

 

 

 

"The juridical view of justice generates two problems for Augustine. One: how can

one say that the attitude of the immutable God’s toward His creation changes from love

to wrath? Two: how can God, who is good, be the author of such an evil as death

(Romanides, 1992)? The only way to answer this is to say, as Augustine did to the young

Bishop, Julian of Eclanum (d. 454), that God’s justice is inscrutable (Cahill, 1995, p. 65).

Logically, then, justice provides proof of inherited guilt for Augustine, because since all

humanity suffers the punishment of death and since God who is just cannot punish the

innocent, then all must be guilty in Adam. Also, by similar reasoning, justice appears as a

standard to which even God must adhere (Kalomiris, 1980). Can God change or be

subject to any kind of standard or necessity? By contrast the Orthodox father, Basil the

Great, attributes the change in attitude to humanity rather than to God (Migne, 1857-

1866b). Because of the theological foundation laid by Augustine and taken up by his

heirs, the conclusion seems unavoidable that a significant change occurs in the West

making the wrath of God and not death the problem facing humanity (Romanides, 1992,

p. 155-156).

How then could God’s anger be assuaged? The position of the ancient Church had

 

 

no answer because its proponents did not see wrath as the problem."

[simka2]

This interests me but I'm lazy and don't want to think to hard. I wish someone would simplify the article for me.

 

:lol::lol: you crack me up. Hey if someone simplifies it for you would you ask them to share with me also.

 

 

There. I posted a teaser! :D If you start reading at the Augustine part in the article you get some very interesting info. ;)

 

The last part is about how the ECF view is more congruent with modern counseling practices and the emphasis being taken off of shaming.

[Little Nyssa]

Well, I just read the article. It's great! Thanks!

The books he cites by Yannaras and Romanides are also worth reading.

[LaxMom]

Excellent article! Thanks for sharing. :001_smile:

[Orthodox6]

I'm not going to comment much, because the thread stands a superb chance of becoming overheated to the point of fireworks.

 

Nonetheless, the book by the late Fr. John Romanides correctly and almost brilliantly sets forth the Orthodox teachings on salvation. (These beliefs were not confined to the early Church, but remain the teachings.) Those teachings are extremely different from, and incompatible with, the teachings of Catholicism and Protestantism. I treasure my copy of the book.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Orthodox6

[Onceuponatime]

Wow.

 

Thank you for posting this.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I'm not going to comment much, because the thread stands a superb chance of becoming overheated to the point of fireworks.

 

Nonetheless, the book by the late Fr. John Romanides correctly and almost brilliantly sets forth the Orthodox teachings on salvation. (These beliefs were not confined to the early Church, but remain the teachings.) Those teachings are extremely different from, and incompatible with, the teachings of Catholicism and Protestantism. I treasure my copy of the book.

 

I would love to hear the jist of this since it is intriguing to me:001_smile: Can you give me your take on the teaching of the Orthodox Church on salvation?

[justamouse]

I've not found the Catholic Church's teaching on sin to be bound by Augustine. He is one man, and though in ways amazing, not all right in all things. If anything, I've found the excellent Catholic Father's to be understanding that Augustine needs balance.

Edited July 6, 2011 by justamouse

[8circles]

I'm not going to comment much, because the thread stands a superb chance of becoming overheated to the point of fireworks.

 

Nonetheless, the book by the late Fr. John Romanides correctly and almost brilliantly sets forth the Orthodox teachings on salvation. (These beliefs were not confined to the early Church, but remain the teachings.) Those teachings are extremely different from, and incompatible with, the teachings of Catholicism and Protestantism. I treasure my copy of the book.

 

I would love to know how to the bolded.

 

There is nothing about the Orthodox view of OS as described in the attached article which is any different from what I have been taught in my Protestant denomination my entire life in several churches across the country.

[simka2]

I would love to know how to the bolded.

 

There is nothing about the Orthodox view of OS as described in the attached article which is any different from what I have been taught in my Protestant denomination my entire life in several churches across the country.

 

I found this to be true for myself as well. In part because I had only been in Charismatic and non-denomination churches. Dh on the other hand had a ver different experience growing up Christian Reformed.

 

I do think there is a backswing occuring in many of the non-denom/postmodernistic churches towards the ECF. What finally pushed dh to make the move towards EO was the combination of already held beliefs and wanting a church that would be stable enough for our children...in the future. We loved our post-modern church, but when that pastor retired there is a chance his vision would pass with him.

 

Dh and I were talking about it last night. He mentioned that although there is more grace being preached, there is a foundation of OS that is ultimately at crosspoints with EO. We have definetly been fortunate to serve under one pastor who eptiomized that article, but we didn't have the path (sacraments) that helped us grow towards deification. It is a 2 part equation. The difference in OS combined with an established path to walk out the salvation process. :D

[simka2]

I've not found the Catholic Church's teaching on sin to be bound by Augustine. He is one man, and though in ways amazing, not all right in all things. If anything, I've found the excellent Catholic Father's to be understanding that Augustine needs balance.

 

 

:DMouse, we both know there are exceptions in every branch! Sometimes more than just exceptions, but entire movements. Much has changed in our generation and as we walk in love with one another the future is bright.

 

Also, just because EO holds and has always held a certain view in no way means there aren't individuals who hold a more Augustinian view of sin. You and your jouney continue to be an inspiriation to me!

[Carol in Cal.]

Bumping this so others can see it and discuss...

[albeto]

Those teachings are extremely different from, and incompatible with, the teachings of Catholicism and Protestantism. I treasure my copy of the book.

 

Add me to the list of the curious. I know that OS isn't a dogma (or really a concept) in Orthodoxy so I'm curious about the sacrament of baptism. What is its function? What are its effects?

[simka2]

Add me to the list of the curious. I know that OS isn't a dogma (or really a concept) in Orthodoxy so I'm curious about the sacrament of baptism. What is its function? What are its effects?

 

 

Here is another article. http://www.antiochian.org/node/16904

 

First of all, children are baptized into a story. Christians are the people of a story. The Lord did not appear from nowhere with a message and language of His own inven-tion. He came as the fulfillment of a promise made in the beginning to Abraham, in conformity to the prophecies concerning Him. The subsequent promises and prophecies, the peoples and the sins, the punishments and the mercies, these are our story. It is the story of Christ, and it is the duty and joy of every Christian to know and teach this story. When children are baptized into this narrative, they become part of it...

 

Second, children are baptized into a people. From the beginning God’s covenant was made with a people, not with a person...

 

Third, a child is baptized into life in Christ. “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus,†says St. Paul, “were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.†(Romans 6:3–4) This newness of life is what we all participate in through baptism, adult and child alike. Certainly children participate differently than adults, but no less authentically.

[Sweet Charlotte]

what is the Orthodox teaching on suffering? What does it teach regarding the book of Job? What role does God play in this?

 

My Bible study today is on this subject, and how suffering produces character, etc, and how God uses it to discipline etc. This is not anything new to me, but I am uncertain on what my beliefs are concerning this. I know that it rains on the just and the unjust, but...And what about healing? What is the Orthodox position on this?

 

My sister just miscarried her first pregnancy, and she is really having a crisis of faith over it. She texted me today wondering why God would allow someone like Casey Anthony to become a mother, but not her...that God could have healed her baby, but chose not to.

 

The older I get and the more I experience, and grow in my faith, I realize that sin is just in the world. We are all broken people in need of God's grace and mercy. What I haven't figured out yet is how God works in that. When does He intervene, or does He, and why?

 

Big questions, I know, and greater ones than I have struggled to find answers. Just wondering what the Orthodox perspective is on it all...

[Lovedtodeath]

Thanks for the link. I tagged it to read later.

:iagree:Thanks Simka

[milovany]

Add me to the list of the curious. I know that OS isn't a dogma (or really a concept) in Orthodoxy so I'm curious about the sacrament of baptism. What is its function? What are its effects?

 

This won't cover everything, but baptism is the entry into the Church, it's the washing of sin (which includes forgiveness but that's not the all of it), it's the being "born again." But it's not becoming once-and-for-all-saved. It's the start of the journey of salvation. To become a follower of Christ, one enters His church through baptism. Then baptism is followed by chrismation, or the receiving and sealing of the Holy Spirit.

[8circles]

:DMouse, we both know there are exceptions in every branch! Sometimes more than just exceptions, but entire movements. Much has changed in our generation and as we walk in love with one another the future is bright.

 

 

Then why would anyone feel the need to make sweeping generalizations that aren't true? I can't even express just how hurtful some of the comments have been coming from the Orthodox perspective. I don't feel any "walking in love" whatsoever.

 

I found this to be true for myself as well. In part because I had only been in Charismatic and non-denomination churches. Dh on the other hand had a ver different experience growing up Christian Reformed. Are Protestants only seen as being Reformed? I don't get how one comes to that conclusion.

 

I do think there is a backswing occuring in many of the non-denom/postmodernistic churches towards the ECF. What finally pushed dh to make the move towards EO was the combination of already held beliefs and wanting a church that would be stable enough for our children...in the future. We loved our post-modern church, but when that pastor retired there is a chance his vision would pass with him.

 

Dh and I were talking about it last night. He mentioned that although there is more grace being preached, there is a foundation of OS that is ultimately at crosspoints with EO. We have definetly been fortunate to serve under one pastor who eptiomized that article, but we didn't have the path (sacraments) that helped us grow towards deification. It is a 2 part equation. The difference in OS combined with an established path to walk out the salvation process. :D

 

I'm still curious how EO salvation is "incompatible with Protestantism". Actually, maybe people who aren't Protestant should just stop using the term.

 

I shouldn't have googled Protestant vs. Orthodox. :crying: I've never personally felt such religious condescension. That hurts. :leaving:

[albeto]

Here is another article. http://www.antiochian.org/node/16904

 

First of all, children are baptized into a story.

 

Thanks for the summary. :)

 

Am I mistaken to understand this story is the story of sin/separation from God and [ultimately] reconciliation/justification? If so, then it seems to me the details of the mechanics are not similar to Catholicism and Protestantism, but the general belief is. Do I misunderstand this?

[milovany]

Then why would anyone feel the need to make sweeping generalizations that aren't true? I can't even express just how hurtful some of the comments have been coming from the Orthodox perspective. I don't feel any "walking in love" whatsoever.

 

 

 

I'm still curious how EO salvation is "incompatible with Protestantism". Actually, maybe people who aren't Protestant should just stop using the term.

 

I shouldn't have googled Protestant vs. Orthodox. :crying: I've never personally felt such religious condescension. That hurts. :leaving:

 

I'm feeling :crying: now. Please forgive me if I've said anything that has felt condescending or judgmental. May the Lord have mercy on me. This is a really good reason though (a good example) of why it is said that Orthodoxy can't be learned/known/understood solely by reading about it (and especially by reading about it on the Internet). I know what you mean about what you may have found on the Internet -- I've seen hurtful things, too, from Orthodox people in regard to Protestantism. To be fair to both sides, there are Protestants who think the Orthodox are not true Christians, and are on the road to hell.

 

Orthodoxy is a life, and can only be truly known/experienced in the context of the organic church. It's a conversation, a story, a people, a faith. It's not limited to words on a page, or words on the Internet. Again, please forgive any offense I may have given.

[simka2]

Then why would anyone feel the need to make sweeping generalizations that aren't true? I can't even express just how hurtful some of the comments have been coming from the Orthodox perspective. I don't feel any "walking in love" whatsoever.

 

 

 

I'm still curious how EO salvation is "incompatible with Protestantism". Actually, maybe people who aren't Protestant should just stop using the term.

 

I shouldn't have googled Protestant vs. Orthodox. :crying: I've never personally felt such religious condescension. That hurts. :leaving:

 

:001_huh: I am not sure where this is coming from. If I said something to offend you I apologize.

 

I am unsure what "sweeping generalizations" you are refering to. I do know that it is common practice to lump post-reformation christianity under the heading Protestant. Does every Protestant believe the same exact way...well of course not...especially in the last 20-30 years as we have seen a surge in the non-denominational movement.

 

But, as someone mention on the recent non-denom thread, the theology of these churches are often very Protestant, they are just out of the jurisdiction of a particular denomination. For example, a non-denom church can agree with everything a SBC church does without being affiliated with the SBC.

 

I guess, I would answer "Yes," everything after The Reformation (with the exception of some pretty specific seperate branches, LDS for example) is Protestant. In 100 years we may have the added branch of the Post-Modern Church. Unfortunately for those of us who have walked with a different understanding don't quite have a branch to fit into, so we get lumped with the one nearset in time frame.

[8circles]

:001_huh: I am not sure where this is coming from. If I said something to offend you I apologize.

 

I am unsure what "sweeping generalizations" you are refering to. I do know that it is common practice to lump post-reformation christianity under the heading Protestant. Does every Protestant believe the same exact way...well of course not...especially in the last 20-30 years as we have seen a surge in the non-denominational movement.

 

But, as someone mention on the recent non-denom thread, the theology of these churches are often very Protestant, they are just out of the jurisdiction of a particular denomination. For example, a non-denom church can agree with everything a SBC church does without being affiliated with the SBC.

 

I guess, I would answer "Yes," everything after The Reformation (with the exception of some pretty specific seperate branches, LDS for example) is Protestant. In 100 years we may have the added branch of the Post-Modern Church. Unfortunately for those of us who have walked with a different understanding don't quite have a branch to fit into, so we get lumped with the one nearset in time frame.

You are misunderstanding me. I wasn't referring to anything you said except where I directly responded to your comments. I'm not non-denom but I don't fit any of the Protestant generalizations that seem to come-up in all these RC/EO threads. It would help greatly if posters would identify which belief held by some Protestants was being referred to instead of lumping them all together. For example, if one is referring to Reformed doctrine then that should be identified because Reformed = Protestant but Protestant does not = Reformed.

 

There have been many threads recently that attempt to clear-up misunderstandings that non-RC/EO may have about their beliefs & I've appreciated them. IMO there are at least as many misconceptions about "Protestantism" & its quite frustrating. I know many EO people IRL. I come from a culture where it is the dominant religion. I've never heard such exclusionary comments about what "Protestants" believe.

 

Whatevs. Nobody can believe anything the EO's do unless they are EO. Got it.

[OnTheBrink]

You are misunderstanding me. I wasn't referring to anything you said except where I directly responded to your comments. I'm not non-denom but I don't fit any of the Protestant generalizations that seem to come-up in all these RC/EO threads. It would help greatly if posters would identify which belief held by some Protestants was being referred to instead of lumping them all together. For example, if one is referring to Reformed doctrine then that should be identified because Reformed = Protestant but Protestant does not = Reformed.

 

There have been many threads recently that attempt to clear-up misunderstandings that non-RC/EO may have about their beliefs & I've appreciated them. IMO there are at least as many misconceptions about "Protestantism" & its quite frustrating. I know many EO people IRL. I come from a culture where it is the dominant religion. I've never heard such exclusionary comments about what "Protestants" believe.

 

Whatevs. Nobody can believe anything the EO's do unless they are EO. Got it.

 

You know, I can relate to a lot of what you're saying regarding the generalizations about Protestants. I've read an EO message board and most of those people's perceptions about Protestants is so far removed from what my church is that I can't even identify with the Protestants that are being described. So, I've sort of rejected the term "protestant" as it relates to my own faith. At this point, I don't even know what I am, other than I am a follower of Christ. Not a good one most of the time, but my faith has been stripped down to that one singular thing: faith in Christ. That's my golden nugget. IMO, everything else is gravy. That's not to imply that doctrines are inconsequential or unimportant, or that all theology is "right" theology, but the one thing I "know" is that I have faith in Christ. I'm still working on the rest.

[TracyP]

So, I've sort of rejected the term "protestant" as it relates to my own faith. At this point, I don't even know what I am, other than I am a follower of Christ. Not a good one most of the time, but my faith has been stripped down to that one singular thing: faith in Christ. That's my golden nugget. IMO, everything else is gravy. That's not to imply that doctrines are inconsequential or unimportant, or that all theology is "right" theology, but the one thing I "know" is that I have faith in Christ. I'm still working on the rest.

 

Oh my, this is me.

 

 

 

I had a long convo with my bf yesterday and discussing what sin is is one of the topics that stuck with me. I have to run but I wanted to post so I remember to come back to read the article. Thanks, Simka.

[simka2]

You know, I can relate to a lot of what you're saying regarding the generalizations about Protestants. I've read an EO message board and most of those people's perceptions about Protestants is so far removed from what my church is that I can't even identify with the Protestants that are being described. So, I've sort of rejected the term "protestant" as it relates to my own faith. At this point, I don't even know what I am, other than I am a follower of Christ. Not a good one most of the time, but my faith has been stripped down to that one singular thing: faith in Christ. That's my golden nugget. IMO, everything else is gravy. That's not to imply that doctrines are inconsequential or unimportant, or that all theology is "right" theology, but the one thing I "know" is that I have faith in Christ. I'm still working on the rest.

 

 

:D The last church we were on staff at would have fallen under this catergory. It was very grace-based, holistic, restorative and non-legalistic. Sometimes I think communication would be so much easier if there was a different term in common usage for these types of churches and christians.

 

Until then I will probably be sticking my foot in my mouth as I attempt to explain how EO is different from RC and Protestant theology. I can't possibly speak for every christian sub-set, so in an attempt to simplfy, things get messy. Hopeful, my heart is pretty evident ;).

 

(Spoken as someone who isn't even EO yet and so falls into that akward non-protestant catergory!)

[love2read]

To clarify a few things that might be misleading. The Roman Catholic church claims St. Basil as one of their saints and great father too, so he to refer to him as "orthodox" is a bit misleading. There are other fathers of the church who have a different take on sin, those living before and after Basil, some who might be in agreement or disagreement with Augustine. There is a spectrum of acceptable views within the Catholic Church on many things (e.g., predestination) so please, don't take one article or post as definitive. Do your own research by googling "church fathers" and read the original writings.

[simka2]

To clarify a few things that might be misleading. The Roman Catholic church claims St. Basil as one of their saints and great father too, so he to refer to him as "orthodox" is a bit misleading. There are other fathers of the church who have a different take on sin, those living before and after Basil, some who might be in agreement or disagreement with Augustine. There is a spectrum of acceptable views within the Catholic Church on many things (e.g., predestination) so please, don't take one article or post as definitive. Do your own research by googling "church fathers" and read the original writings.

 

That is a very interesting point and I appreciate you bringing it up. Can I ask a question? Does the Catholic Church have a dogma regarding Original Sin? I want to hear that you are saying there is allowable variety within the RC.

[I.Dup.]

Interesting article.

 

However, I do not know how one could read the OT and come away with the impression that God is not angry or full of wrath toward sin (and when we choose it).

[Caitilin]

Simka, the CCC (catechism, therefore the definitive teaching of the RCC) says the following about original sin [sourced here (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm)]:

 

Original sin - an essential truth of the faith

 

388 With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also illuminated. Although to some extent the People of God in the Old Testament had tried to understand the pathos of the human condition in the light of the history of the fall narrated in Genesis, they could not grasp this story's ultimate meaning, which is revealed only in the light of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.261 We must know Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of sin. The Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Christ, came to "convict the world concerning sin",262 by revealing him who is its Redeemer.

 

389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the "reverse side" of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ,263 knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

[justamouse]

To clarify a few things that might be misleading. The Roman Catholic church claims St. Basil as one of their saints and great father too, so he to refer to him as "orthodox" is a bit misleading. There are other fathers of the church who have a different take on sin, those living before and after Basil, some who might be in agreement or disagreement with Augustine. There is a spectrum of acceptable views within the Catholic Church on many things (e.g., predestination) so please, don't take one article or post as definitive. Do your own research by googling "church fathers" and read the original writings.

 

Exactly.

 

Simka, the CCC (catechism, therefore the definitive teaching of the RCC) says the following about original sin [sourced here (:]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm)]:

 

Original sin - an essential truth of the faith

 

388 With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also illuminated. Although to some extent the People of God in the Old Testament had tried to understand the pathos of the human condition in the light of the history of the fall narrated in Genesis, they could not grasp this story's ultimate meaning, which is revealed only in the light of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.261 We must know Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of sin. The Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Christ, came to "convict the world concerning sin",262 by revealing him who is its Redeemer.

 

389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the "reverse side" of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ,263 knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

 

That leaves a lot of room. That is a very broad and generous explanation. At least in my opinion.

 

Father Barron explains it as not choosing God's way (God being love).

[love2read]

That is a very interesting point and I appreciate you bringing it up. Can I ask a question? Does the Catholic Church have a dogma regarding Original Sin? I want to hear that you are saying there is allowable variety within the RC.

I see this has already been answered, but I want to share something with you that it took me years to realize. Like you, I spent my childhood in pentecostal and some mainstream protestant churches. In my late 20s I went searching for more and, over a period of several years, talked with priests from EO and RC churches. I also read the church fathers which, surprisingly enough, were on the office shelves of an evangelical minister that I had also been talking to about my EO and RC journey. I doubt he read them. Obviously I came to the conclusion that RC had the fullness of the faith and an unbroken chain from the apostles, but I realized that much of the separation between EO and RC is semantics. I'm sharing this with you because I sense some defensiveness that I also had after my conversion. I recognized it in myself as a carry over from having to "prove" my beliefs as a Protestant. I don't know about EO, but in the RC church we pray for our "separated brothers and sisters in Christ." I've tried to get over my need to prove the Truth about my choice by thinking and praying in that same spirit and it has helped in my spiritual growth. Our family stayed quite close with one of the EO priests and his family and we continue to discuss differences. If you have questions about the RC church, you should call a church and ask to meet with a priest. I spoke with a few different EO priests during my conversion before finding one that I thought was really knowledgeable and who had the time to talk, so don't be surprised if you have to search around a bit to find an RC priest that answers your questions too.

[Rene']

what is the Orthodox teaching on suffering? What does it teach regarding the book of Job? What role does God play in this?

 

My Bible study today is on this subject, and how suffering produces character, etc, and how God uses it to discipline etc. This is not anything new to me, but I am uncertain on what my beliefs are concerning this. I know that it rains on the just and the unjust, but...And what about healing

 

The rain that God causes to fall is a blessing - not something bad. The text isn't saying that God causes bad things to happen to good people, but that God causes GOOD things to happen even to bad people - because He is good and perfect.

 

We are told to LOVE our enemies, BLESS those who curse us, do GOOD to those that hate us, and PRAY for those who despitefully use us, which is how God operates, causing the sun to rise, even on evil, and the rain (a blessing) to fall, even on the unjust.

[Sweet Charlotte]

The rain that God causes to fall is a blessing - not something bad. The text isn't saying that God causes bad things to happen to good people' date=' but that God causes GOOD things to happen even to bad people - because He is good and perfect.

 

We are told to LOVE our enemies, BLESS those who curse us, do GOOD to those that hate us, and PRAY for those who despitefully use us, which is how God operates, causing the sun to rise, even on evil, and the rain (a blessing) to fall, even on the unjust.[/quote']

 

 

That is a good point. I know that this is true, but it helps to see it juxtaposed plainly...

 

I guess the issue I am pondering, then, is that of healing or physical "interventions" by God, and what our place is in that by participating through prayer.

 

I pray because I can't help it, but sometimes I don't know...

 

I was raised Assembly of God, with a slight hint of "prosperity" theology...this did not work for me, and I think it has caused confusion regarding prayer and how God works in the world.

 

I am so intrigued by and drawn to EO, but it is so foreign to me...

 

Thanks.

Kim

[Lovedtodeath]

Interesting article.

 

However, I do not know how one could read the OT and come away with the impression that God is not angry or full of wrath toward sin (and when we choose it).

For balance:

"As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us." "Their sin I shall remember no more." Psalm 103:12; Jeremiah 31:34

 

"Do return, O renegade Israel... I shall not have my face drop angrily upon you people, for I am loyal." Jeremiah 3:12

 

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekial 33:11

 

"For there is indignation against you from the person of Jehovah. Nevertheless, there are good things that have been found in you." 2 Chronicles 19:1-3

 

1 Kings 14:13 "Something good toward Jehovah the God of Israel has been found in him."

[milovany]

That is a good point. I know that this is true, but it helps to see it juxtaposed plainly...

 

I guess the issue I am pondering, then, is that of healing or physical "interventions" by God, and what our place is in that by participating through prayer.

 

I pray because I can't help it, but sometimes I don't know...

 

I was raised Assembly of God, with a slight hint of "prosperity" theology...this did not work for me, and I think it has caused confusion regarding prayer and how God works in the world.

 

I am so intrigued by and drawn to EO, but it is so foreign to me...

 

Thanks.

Kim

 

Kim, please PM me, would you? We used to be very into the pentecostal/charismatic movement, one with not just a "slight hint" of prosperity but a full-on no-holds-barred dousing of it. I have struggled as we've become Orthodox (and still have much paradigm shifting going on), but have to say that I am much more content and peaceful inside since converting -- and my faith in God has grown tremendously. I know and trust Him more as a real living entity than I ever did in the word of faith movement. I don't want to go into that more, publicly, but would be happy to dialogue with you privately, if you're interested.

 

:grouphug:

[simka2]

That is a good point. I know that this is true, but it helps to see it juxtaposed plainly...

 

I guess the issue I am pondering, then, is that of healing or physical "interventions" by God, and what our place is in that by participating through prayer.

 

I pray because I can't help it, but sometimes I don't know...

 

I was raised Assembly of God, with a slight hint of "prosperity" theology...this did not work for me, and I think it has caused confusion regarding prayer and how God works in the world.

 

I am so intrigued by and drawn to EO, but it is so foreign to me...

 

Thanks.

Kim

 

Kim, dh was an ordained AG pastor for many years. You can read some of my journey on my blog link below. I too have wrestled with your questions. Feel free to pm if you like.

 

:grouphug:Sometimes there are not words to describe the pain we go thru. Sometimes, simply surviving until we catch another glimpse of the Divine is all we have. In time faith can deepen, but right now is a time for grief. It's okay to grieve and go thru all the cycles that entails.

 

Your sister is in my thoughts!

[milovany]

I thought of posting this yesterday, but didn't get around to it (see lyrics below). It's the rough translation of the Russian music on this video, which was posted on Fr. Stephen's Glory to God for All Things blog Monday. Someone translated it, in the comment section. Beautiful.

 

- - - - -

Val says: "In Russia (even today) when pilgrims set out on their pilgrimages to various monasteries or other holy places they often walk a portion of the way. It is when walking that such songs are commonly sung on their journey." It’s a little long, but here’s a rough translation of the song, into English:

 

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for sorrow and joy!

 

Somewhere far away, and once long ago

Lived a wise and experienced elder.

He so often said, and continually repeated:

Glory to God for sorrow and joy.

 

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for sorrow and joy!

 

If someone has said to you something mean ,

Or treated you harshly,

Know this my friend,

God’s will it is here,

We must reconcile ourselves with this.

 

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for sorrow and joy!

 

If you have become ill, and are seriously ailing,

And you cannot arise from your bed,

Then, so it is destined, for our sins it is given,

And we must not murmur and fear.

 

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for sorrow and joy!

 

If someone has slandered and complained about you,

Then do not be embarrassed by this.

Know that the Lord has sent this to you,

You must love all and be humbled.

 

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for sorrow and joy!

 

If someone has insulted you with something,

Do not try to justify yourself.

But rather before this, humble yourself and know

That the Lord is helping to save you.

 

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for sorrow and joy!

 

If perhaps your cross seems a bit too heavy,

And it seems that it is more than you can bear,

Know that the Lord would not send that which is beyond your strength,

Do not complain, but love and be humbled.

 

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for sorrow and joy!

 

Learn how to do, God’s will at all times

Perhaps we will someday be persecuted ourselves.

And with a pack on our back, with tears in our eyes

Our loved ones may even despise us.

 

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for sorrow and joy!

 

Should there be sadness and sickness and sorrows,

Should we have to suffer because of something,

Do not place blame on anyone, but always say,

All is sent to us sinners by God.

 

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for sorrow and joy!

 

Our years they will pass, all our friends will move on,

Unnoticingly old age will come upon us.

But always stand firm and always just say,

Glory to God for sorrows and joy.

 

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for all things.

Glory to God for sorrow and joy!

[mamatohaleybug]

Beautiful song. Thank you for sharing it.

 

 

What does EO mean? I can't figure it out. :001_huh: Thanks!

[Caitilin]

EO=Eastern Orthodox. :)

[mamatohaleybug]

Eastern Orthodox! Duh!! I was complicating things. LOL

 

Thanks!

[Rene']

I guess the issue I am pondering, then, is that of healing or physical "interventions" by God, and what our place is in that by participating through prayer.

 

I pray because I can't help it, but sometimes I don't know...

 

I was raised Assembly of God, with a slight hint of "prosperity" theology...this did not work for me, and I think it has caused confusion regarding prayer and how God works in the world.

 

I am so intrigued by and drawn to EO, but it is so foreign to me...

 

Thanks.

Kim

 

Being also raised in charismatic/word of faith churches (some stronger in it than others), I struggled with these thoughts as well. I knew ladies who flushed their contacts down the toilet as a sign to God that they had faith so He would heal them. My Dad died of cancer when I was 13, my mom was told she did not have enough faith or he would have been healed. My brother died of a drug overdose when I was 23. Again my mom was told she didn't have enough faith.

 

For a long time I rejected everything I was taught in church growing up (trying to blot it out and learn the truth of the bible from the beginning) and clung to "Jesus is God and He died for me."

 

I am not EO, to be honest I don't identify myself as anything other than a bible believer. I wish I could offer some words to comfort but to be honest, after studying the bible, looking at the world around me, and my own experiences, I still don't really know what is the truth on this issue.

 

Some of my thoughts on this though are that even when Jesus was here on the earth he didn't heal everyone. At Bethesda Jesus just healed the one man. Paul is not healed of his "thorn in the flesh" - which many think was an eye problem because he acknowledged that the Galatians would have given him their eyes if that was possible. Paul tells Timothy to drink wine for his "often" infirmities.

 

I don't believe faith is something we stir up and offer to God to get him to act. This is what I was taught that it was growing up. Now I believe that it's simply believing in what God has said and what he has promised. I believe in his goodness, his justness, his love. Yes, I believe that he hates sin and will punish the wicked, but I am less inclined to believe that all Christians are being punished by God when they are sick, or when a child dies, because Jesus bore our punishment on the Cross and said "It is finished."

 

I don't think it is God's intention to heal/fix everything that is wrong down here. God wants us to have faith and he has placed mankind in an environment where faith can happen. Not faith that he will heal, but simply faith in Him.

 

My heart goes out to your sister. I have never had a miscarriage but I thought I did during my first pregnancy and it was a horrible time. I am more inclined to think that a miscarriage is the result of living in a world that is not Heaven, and we don't have the tree of life. People get sick and bodies don't work like they should. The foods we eat, the lifestyle we live, the toxins we are exposed to daily, all play a role, imo.

 

Many people who have infertility trouble can get pregnant through scientific means. Did the couple who chose that route thwart God's plan to not bless them? When a man rapes a young teen and she gets pregnant, was God directing the sperm toward her egg, or did it just happen because all the elements for pregnancy were present?

 

When a baby is conceived, was it always God's direct doing? When an unborn baby dies, is it always God's plan and desire? I really don't believe so.

 

And I've gone on and on and probably made no sense at all. But again, these are just the jumbled thoughts and questions that run through my head on this matter.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Rene'

[Lovedtodeath]

For a long time I rejected everything I was taught in church growing up (trying to blot it out and learn the truth of the bible from the beginning) and clung to "Jesus is God and He died for me."

:grouphug:I just wanted to say that I understand. When attending church would draw me away from God instead of toward him I started to realize that I shouldn't be there.

[justamouse]

The rain that God causes to fall is a blessing - not something bad. The text isn't saying that God causes bad things to happen to good people' date=' but that God causes GOOD things to happen even to bad people - because He is good and perfect.

 

We are told to LOVE our enemies, BLESS those who curse us, do GOOD to those that hate us, and PRAY for those who despitefully use us, which is how God operates, causing the sun to rise, even on evil, and the rain (a blessing) to fall, even on the unjust.[/quote']

 

beautiful. so perfectly worded.

[sbgrace]

I wanted to thank you for posting that article. My husband and I have come to those conclusions and it's good to see it written by someone else.

 

At the risk of looking like I just don't get it...

 

We don't have the advantage of an EO church near so my husband and I are on our own. Do you have ideas about teaching kids these things? The idea of God's love for all men, our cooperation with that love in response, our growth in grace, etc. aren't the issue particularly since my own upbringing (Wesleyan influence) held those concepts solidly but rather things like how to teach the "broader than substitutionary" nature of Christ's sacrifice in terms understandable to kids?

[Sweet Charlotte]

And I've gone on and on and probably made no sense at all. But again' date=' these are just the jumbled thoughts and questions that run through my head on this matter.[/quote']

 

 

Thank you for your words.

 

Sometimes this board is like group therapy...