Teacher Says Not All "Sex With Student" Stories Should Be Treated Equally

[justamouse]

And therein is the difference. He has consensual sex with a grown woman who happened to be a student in a completely different school district.

 

she knew that, that's why she winked.

[Haiku]

she knew that, that's why she winked.

 

I thought she winked because she's a married woman who is not in the habit of sleeping with men who aren't her husband.

 

Tara

[justamouse]

I disagree knowing that viewpoint will be an unpopular one here. :)

 

But clearly this would feel threatening to a lot of Mothers who could have 18 year old daughters in his care and under his tutelage... allowing him the ability to have authority over an area of personal weakness for him would be irresponsible.

 

No, I wouldn't feel threatened, because my daughter wouldn't seduce a 50 yo man.

 

He wasn't a predator. He didn't prey on her. She admitted to seducing him (offering him sex) and he accepted.

[justamouse]

I thought she winked because she's a married woman who is not in the habit of sleeping with men who aren't her husband.

 

Tara

 

I assumed that part. :D

[Joanne]

And therein is the difference. He has consensual sex with a grown woman who happened to be a student in a completely different school district.

 

As a high school teacher, knowing (or supposed to have known) the laws.

[AmyTompkins]

:lol:

 

I ask in all sincerity, do you know many teen age girls? Seriously, a great many do this sort of thing for fun. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that there was some kind of wager on the stamina of the 50+ year old teacher. You really can't be sure who the predator was in this situation.

 

Well, I was a teenaged girl not so long ago (and I fancied older men, actually... always have). And I have a teenaged daughter and a pre-teen one as well. I don't doubt that what you state could have been a reality, but he did not have to take the bait. You do not get to claim victim just because someone dangled a carrot in front of you.

 

Is it my fault that I ate all of the ice cream bars in the freezer (@ 20g of fat per!!!)? Perhaps it was my man's fault... he knows I am crazy for them... but he bought them anyway. And then he went out of town leaving them here with me.... I shall gaze upon my thunder thighs and scream "victim"! He probbly owes me some lipo, at the very least, right? :tongue_smilie:

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't disagree with you (he should have, but apparently lost circulation to his frontal lobe), but the outrage should go both ways. Especially in the age of sexting where girls are sending nude pictures and boys go to jail and get records for it. So he looses his liscence, and she skips off to the next guy.

 

But the girls *can* get in trouble. Underage girls who send nude pics of themselves can be arrested for transmitting them over the Internet.

 

With anyone's clients, or just your own?

 

Military officers are not supposed to have relationships with any lower enlisted soldiers, even those not under their direct command. This is because those in authority must avoid any *appearance* or partiality, use of rank for personal gain, exploitation and so forth. I think that is similar to this.

[Joanne]

I thought she winked because she's a married woman who is not in the habit of sleeping with men who aren't her husband.

 

Tara

 

Not habitually. Not even other people's husbands. :auto:

[Parrothead]

Well, I was a teenaged girl not so long ago (and I fancied older men, actually... always have). And I have a teenaged daughter and a pre-teen one as well. I don't doubt that what you state could have been a reality, but he did not have to take the bait. You do not get to claim victim just because someone dangled a carrot in front of you.

 

Is it my fault that I ate all of the ice cream bars in the freezer (@ 20g of fat per!!!)? Perhaps it was my man's fault... he knows I am crazy for them... but he bought them anyway. And then he went out of town leaving them here with me.... I shall gaze upon my thunder thighs and scream "victim"! He probbly owes me some lipo, at the very least, right? :tongue_smilie:

Well, I've agreed all along that he can't cry victim. He wasn't even smart enough to lie and say that the young lady told him she had graduated. Or that the young lady told him she was 21. Not the brightest bulb in the box there.

 

As for your dh and the ice cream... if you haven't trained him by now to know that it is always the husband's fault, don't come crying to me about your ice cream thighs. If you want it, yes, he should pay for the lipo, and another box of fudgie-buddies.:lol::lol:

 

I'm going to bed.

 

Welcome to the boards.

[Geo]

Originally Posted by tntgoodwin

And therein is the difference. He has consensual sex with a grown woman who happened to be a student in a completely different school district.

 

Mrs Mungo;2863219][/color]Texas Educator Code of Ethics says, "the educator shall not solicit or engage in sexual conduct or a romantic relationship with a student." If you want to have sex with 18 year old high school students, then don't be a teacher. It seems pretty cut and dry to me.[/QUOTE]

 

Just because she went to school in another district doesn't matter! Look above! This isn't about state therapist/client code.

It's a state code for Texs educators, not a district code. Was she a student in Texas? Is he an educator in Texas? It's open and shut. If he thought she was cheap, he was wrong. She cost him a whole lot more than he obviously ever considered.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Geo
self edit

[AmyTompkins]

Well, I've agreed all along that he can't cry victim. He wasn't even smart enough to lie and say that the young lady told him she had graduated. Or that the young lady told him she was 21. Not the brightest bulb in the box there.

 

As for your dh and the ice cream... if you haven't trained him by now to know that it is always the husband's fault, don't come crying to me about your ice cream thighs. If you want it, yes, he should pay for the lipo, and another box of fudgie-buddies.:lol::lol:

 

I'm going to bed.

 

Welcome to the boards.

 

Thanks for the welcome! I have been here for years but don't post a lot. I had to stop due to high blood pressure! ;)

 

G'nite!

[Joker]

I find it a bit sickening that it could all be blamed on the teenage high schooler. I don't care that she was 18. He was in his 50's and should be able to say no. He was a trusted teacher and ruined it to have fun with a young lady. I don't care if she seduced him ~ he should have been able to say no. I met my dh when I was 20 but I look much younger. He asked to see my ID before dating me. He was able to say no and make sure I was old enough to consent and he was only 24 and not an educator.

[Parrothead]

Thanks for the welcome! I have been here for years but don't post a lot. I had to stop due to high blood pressure! ;)

 

G'nite!

:smilielol5:Maybe you'd better hang out at the curriculum board.

 

Then again there have been some doozies over there too.;)

[Mrs Mungo]

:smilielol5:Maybe you'd better hang out at the curriculum board.

 

Then again there have been some doozies over there too.;)

 

Don't get the plowing the damp field thing going here too!!!

:tongue_smilie:

[Parrothead]

I find it a bit sickening that it could all be blamed on the teenage high schooler. I don't care that she was 18. He was in his 50's and should be able to say no. He was a trusted teacher and ruined it to have fun with a young lady. I don't care if she seduced him ~ he should have been able to say no. I met my dh when I was 20 but I look much younger. He asked to see my ID before dating me. He was able to say no and make sure I was old enough to consent and he was only 24 and not an educator.

I don't think anyone is blaming it all on the young lady. But she did blithely admit to being the chaser not the chasee. I'd be more outraged on her behalf if she said he had to wear her down and hounded her day and night.

[Parrothead]

Don't get the plowing the damp field thing going here too!!!

:tongue_smilie:

I'm taking my itchy body off to bed. I have no idea what you are talking about. :tongue_smilie::D:lol:

[AmyTompkins]

No, I wouldn't feel threatened, because my daughter wouldn't seduce a 50 yo man.

 

He wasn't a predator. He didn't prey on her. She admitted to seducing him (offering him sex) and he accepted.

 

Well good for her, you have done a nice job! Perhaps this girl wasn't lucky enough to have a Mom who gave a hoot... in fact, all indications point to exactly that. 18 year old young women who have had the blessing of a Mom who taught them values and gave them a sense of self-worth are probably not seducing men old enough to be their grandfathers. But the ones who are behaving that way are looking for something they are missing emotionally even if it plays out physically. They need their elders to make the right call and be mature when they can't do it for themselves.

 

I have helped out at the local hs many times... I would not call *any* of those wonderful ladies grown women. Because they aren't. And I don't volunteer at a hs specializing in immaturity... high schoolers *are* immature, even the mature seeming ones are naive to life's realities. Many, many kiddos these days are growing up without real parents who actually parent them (gasp!) so today's sex-wise/street-wise kids have less maturity than ever... and that makes them prone to poor decisions. As mature adults, we need to be better examples. That man exploited her vulnerabilities, plain and simple.

[cathmom]

18 year old young women who have had the blessing of a Mom who taught them values and gave them a sense of self-worth are probably not seducing men old enough to be their grandfathers.

 

 

"Grandfather" - while technically possible - is, IMO, pushing it a bit. Although it would show a family history of sex in high school... :D

 

I guess this guy never heard "Just Say No." Oh, wait, that's about drugs... Well, hopefully they didn't smoke a joint after. :lol:

[Mrs Mungo]

"Grandfather" - while technically possible - is, IMO, pushing it a bit. Although it would show a family history of sex in high school... :D

 

He got his teaching certificate in 1979. I was 7. I have a dd who is almost 16. I was 23 when she was born. So, I don't think it is pushing it by much.

 

I guess this guy never heard "Just Say No." Oh, wait, that's about drugs... Well, hopefully they didn't smoke a joint after. :lol:

 

:tongue_smilie::lol:

[Parrothead]

He got his teaching certificate in 1979. I was 7. I have a dd who is almost 16. I was 23 when she was born. So, I don't think it is pushing it by much.

 

 

 

:tongue_smilie::lol:

Oh, this brings back a memory. I've lived a lot of places and have met a lot of people.

 

I knew a guy that was 34 when we met. Aw, he made the best chicken and dumplins I've ever had. Anyway, he was a grandfather! He had his kid when he was in his teens and the kid had his/her (I don't remember if it was his son or daughter) baby as a teen.

 

This was a good 23 or so years ago. Could be there are a couple more generations by now.

[greenvneck]

I am fascinated by this story, mostly because I LIVE in Plano. Honestly, I don't see an issue where two consenting adults hook up, in an off-campus location, when they are not even in a teacher-student relationship. I am willing to admit that I am wrong, but if you click here you can see that Texas law precludes said teacher-student sexual relationship "at which the employee works," which was not the case in this situation. Different school districts, different counties.

 

Like I said, I'm willing to be proved wrong! But I just really don't see what the big deal is for two adults to engage in a sexual relationship, especially when it is just now coming to light 2+ years later. That is ridiculous!

[Mrs Mungo]

Texas law says when he will go to jail. The code of conduct is a different matter. Your freedom may not be at risk, even when your job is at risk. I quoted the bit where it says "a student" earlier. Student is defined as:

Student--A person enrolled in a primary or secondary school, whether public, private, or charter, regardless of the person's age, or aperson 18 years of age or younger who is eligible to be enrolled in a primary or secondary school, whether public, private, or charter.

 

He went against the ethical code. If a doctor signs an ethics code that says he won't have sex with nurses, then he can be fired if he does so. That's the bottom line. It doesn't matter if they are consenting adults. What matters is that he is in violation of the terms of his employment.

[twoforjoy]

By your line of thinking it should be fine for me to have consentual sex with my friend's attractive 18 year old son who is quite flirtatious and certainly capable of initiating an encounter. There should be no consideration for the fact that, as a 36 year old woman with a bit more life experience under my belt I should probably exercise some restraint and be the adult in the situation because my maturity allows me to see aspects of the situation and potential repercussions that his immature, but legal, brain cannot fathom at this time. The legality of an issue need not be the same as the morality of an issue.

 

You used the term "predator." That is a VERY loaded term, and one we apply to pedophiles. Would I think you were doing a good or right thing if you slept with your friend's son? No. Would I think you were a sexual predator? Absolutely not.

[FaithManor]

Texas law says when he will go to jail. The code of conduct is a different matter. Your freedom may not be at risk, even when your job is at risk. I quoted the bit where it says "a student" earlier. Student is defined as:

 

 

He went against the ethical code. If a doctor signs an ethics code that says he won't have sex with nurses, then he can be fired if he does so. That's the bottom line. It doesn't matter if they are consenting adults. What matters is that he is in violation of the terms of his employment.

 

I agree with Mrs. Mungo. He violated the terms of his work contract. That's end of story in my book. It's hard on the school in particular because parents want to trust the teachers. One that seems to be pursuing intimate relationships with high school students, even if in this particular case the student was at another school, is one many parents will have a difficult time allowing to exercise authority over their own daughters. So, the school did what it needed to do. He signed the code of conduct and if he didn't agree with it, he should never have taken the job in the first place.

 

Faith

[twoforjoy]

I disagree knowing that viewpoint will be an unpopular one here. :)

 

But clearly this would feel threatening to a lot of Mothers who could have 18 year old daughters in his care and under his tutelage... allowing him the ability to have authority over an area of personal weakness for him would be irresponsible.

 

Does this man have a history of sleeping with 18-year-old women? Are you sure that this is an "area of personal weakness"?

 

Or should any man who might have sex with a woman be barred from teaching, lest their "area of weakness" cause them to sleep with a woman who is 18?

 

And how far should this be taken? I teach college. Should I lose my job if I was found to be having sex with any college student from anywhere? Because my authority over them would be exactly the same as the authority this teacher had over this student.

 

I just had new neighbors move in. The husband is a theater professor, the wife is a nursing student. Is he a "creepy predator" for having a relationship with a woman who he has authority over in the same sense (perhaps more, since he works at the school she attends) this man had authority over this woman?

 

If we don't think that, then it's the age thing. And, if we want to talk about universal morality, the universal part is not on the side of those who would want to argue that older men dating much younger women is wrong. That's been a relatively common practice in most cultures and societies. I can't think of a single religious text that condemns the practice. The idea that it's morally wrong for an older man to have consensual sexual relationships with a younger woman because of their age difference is a very modern idea, and not one we'd be able to find universal support for by a long shot. We can certainly think it's wrong, but we have to accept that our opinion is based on contemporary society and contemporary ideas, not on some universal moral mandate.

 

Again, we can personally find the relationships distasteful. We can question the judgment of both parties. We can say that he violated the terms of his contract and so has no right to complain about being fired. But I don't see any basis for talking about this man as if he has committed some heinous crime against innocent children, which is what it's being made out to sound like.

Edited June 24, 2011 by twoforjoy

[elegantlion]

I don't have a problem with an 18yo and a 50yo choosing to have sex, and according to what I've read it is not illegal in his state - BUT it did violate the terms of his contract. And he was fired based on that violation.

 

I wonder, though, since she was from another district and he met her during the break, did he know she had not yet graduated? I would think an 18yo had graduated unless told otherwise. Also, how did this become common knowledge?

 

Yes, I'm curious how the details came to light.

 

FTR, I totally agree with this; from a purely contractual standpoint, it seems quite clear that he was in breach of hs contract. The other, moral issues are a bit more muddled.

 

Lisa

 

:iagree:

 

Probably the most offensive thing in this thread is the assumption that 50 is some ancient age. :tongue_smilie::lol: My dh is 50, I'm way younger, and he doesn't look it. :D

 

In high school we had one student that was sleeping with her teacher. It was well known by the student body. Twenty-Five years later she comes to class reunion with her dh, the teacher, yup they were in it for the long haul.

[Haiku]

high schoolers *are* immature, even the mature seeming ones are naive to life's realities.

 

I think this is because we treat them like children, confine them to children's culture, and expect them to act childishly. As I have mentioned probably more than several times on this board, my great grandmother got married at 13 (to a man who was 24!), had babies at 14 and 16, took care of her children, ran the home, AND ran her husband's store while he was at his other job of postmaster, before she was 17. I don't think teens have devolved substantially in 100 years. I think our expectations of them have. If teens are led to believe that their lives are in a holding pattern until they graduate and begin real life, it's really no surprise that their perceptions are narrowed.

 

In fact, I homeschool in part to avoid this cultural phenomenon of the useless teenager.

 

Tara

[pdalley]

How is 21 less arbitrary than 18? I'm not being snide ... I really wonder why it's 21 and not 20 or 22?

 

Tara

 

At 21 my world view completely changed. At 25 It changed again. I was a complete idiot at 18 and made really bad choices. By the time I met my husband the age gap didn't matter and since he acts like he's 15 years younger than he is then it is a moot point in our relationship.

 

I don't think its creepy because he's 50. I think he's an idiot for not waiting til she graduated knowing the terms of his own employment contract. I do however think it was incredibly disgusting for my brother's 37 year old English teacher to seduce and dump a 17 year old boy. No one seemed to think it was a big deal - they didn't have to deal with the fall out.

 

 

Which is why I said IMO. :001_smile:

[twoforjoy]

I think this is because we treat them like children, confine them to children's culture, and expect them to act childishly. As I have mentioned probably more than several times on this board, my great grandmother got married at 13 (to a man who was 24!), had babies at 14 and 16, took care of her children, ran the home, AND ran her husband's store while he was at his other job of postmaster, before she was 17. I don't think teens have devolved substantially in 100 years. I think our expectations of them have. If teens are led to believe that their lives are in a holding pattern until they graduate and begin real life, it's really no surprise that their perceptions are narrowed.

 

In fact, I homeschool in part to avoid this cultural phenomenon of the useless teenager.

 

I've often wondered how many amazing things we're keeping teens from doing by treating them like children.

 

I will say, part of why I find the whole idea that it's disgusting or wrong for an adult to have consensual sex with a person in their mid-to-late teens--and, not just morally wrong, but something that makes a person a predator and indistinguishable from a person who molests or rapes a child--is that it seems to me to be very demeaning to teens, especially teen girls. I lost my virginity at 17, to a friend who was in his early 20s. If there was a "predator" in the relationship, it was me. He liked me a lot and wanted a relationship (at the time, he was living at home and attending college; I was living at home and attending high school; we had no less in common than I would have had with another high school student); I thought he was a nice guy, I knew he'd only had one intimate relationship before and they were both virgins at the time so he was safe and disease-free, and just wanted to see what all the fuss was about. I lost my virginity and had very little further use for him.

 

The idea that, in many states, he could go to prison for that--and often end up getting more time than a man who violently sexually assaulted a woman, or an adult who molested a prepubescent child--and then spend the rest of his life on a public sex offender registry just disgusts me. And that absolutely shapes my thinking on this. Nearly all of my friends, from the time we were maybe 16 and up, dated guys who were older, sometimes by two or three years, sometimes by more. Were they always the wisest or healthiest relationships? No. But, a lot of same-age relationships weren't wise or healthy, either, and I have friends who still, in their 30s, aren't entering into wise or healthy relationships. Certainly, though, the guys involved weren't sexual predators, creeps, perverts, or dangers to society, and I don't see the good in labeling them as such.

[kalanamak]

Ok. You have power and authority with YOUR clients and cannot (according to the law) have sex with them, but (according to the law) you have no special station of authority over other people in counseling.

 

I see it the same with the teacher: power and authority over HIS students that doesn't extend to other people's students.

 

But again, if the law says any student at all, he is accountable. I just don't find it an abuse of power.

 

Tara

 

I believe the rules (not the same as "laws") were a high school student under the age 19. I've known high school students who were 19 (hubby's eldest, for instance, because his homeschooling ex started them in high school later, on purpose).

 

How was this found out?

Did he KNOW she was still a student even if 18? It was not a school event, and she wasn't in his district.

If she was 18, and was not in his district, I think the rule invasive. But I still wonder why it is coming to light now.

[tntgoodwin]

How old were Mary and Joseph?

[Sparkle]

I don't see that the teacher really did wrong in this situation either. Yes, he possibly didn't use the best judgment, and I suppose he could be fired since the girl was a "student". But they were both adults, and the student may be just as culpable as he, if not more. For the record, I had two high school girl friends who married teachers - one married our English teacher when she was barely 17 (she graduated early), and the other married the high school science teacher after she graduated. I'll also admit that when I was 17 I dated a guy who was 35 (and I pursued him, not the other way around). And my BIL who is a college professor is dating one of his former students (although she does happen to be the same age as he). The girl student in this case is old enough to be married, so I don't have an issue with the legality of the situation.

[DarlaS]

How old were Mary and Joseph?

 

Historically, young girls have been married off to old men. So what?

 

Until we're willing to go back to living in caves and cooking our mammoth stew over open fires, I don't see history as a valid argument for much. (And yes, I realize mammoths were somewhat further back in history. ;)).

[twoforjoy]

Historically, young girls have been married off to old men. So what?

 

Until we're willing to go back to living in caves and cooking our mammoth stew over open fires, I don't see history as a valid argument for much. (And yes, I realize mammoths were somewhat further back in history. ;)).

 

I think it's probably a valid argument for there being nothing perverted, predatory, or sick about it. Now, we can say that it doesn't fit with our modern lives, and that's fine. But, unless we are willing to write off vast swathes of men across history as dangerous, creepy pedophiles because they were in relationships with teenagers, then I think we need to acknowledge that we are setting up arbitrary cultural boundaries--which all cultures do, and which is fine--rather than protecting children from some great harm.

 

I'm not comfortable with calling teens "young girls," either. My son has a 5-year-old girl friend over today: she is a "young girl." A 16-year-old teenager is NOT a young girl, but a young woman, and it's demeaning to refer to her as such. And, yes, it does matter, because when we talk about older men marrying "young girls," it certainly does matter whether the "young girl" in question was six years old or sixteen years old, and if we don't see a distinction there, then I'm not really sure what to say.

[Laura Corin]

I went out with a student when I was a teacher in France. He was not a student at my school and I had no influence on his school career. He was nineteen; I was twenty-one. There was nothing in my contract to forbid the contact.

 

In retrospect, the relationship put me in a difficult position, reducing the respect of some of my own students when the word got around (as of course it did). It was a mistake not because it was exploitative, but because it made me seem unprofessional. I think it was a stupid thing to do but not a sackable one.

 

Laura

[Mrs Mungo]

How old were Mary and Joseph?

 

Shall we go back to treating women as commodities then? Because that's what the vast majority of societies with child brides do.

[Sputterduck]

How old were Mary and Joseph?

 

Nobody knows. We can guess based on our best guesses about how the culture functioned at the time. But guesses like that might be good for talking about the average age of marriages there at that time but not about one couple in particular.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Sputterduck

[Sputterduck]

I am really disturbed this took place in a martial arts studio. There are huge power dynamics going on in martial arts schools. Huge. I hope that he was not higher rank than she was. Teaching obedience to higher ranks is a big deal in any school I've ever seen that was at all traditional. Obedience plus sex plus a huge age difference is freakishly inappropriate. I just hope that wasn't the case.

[Haiku]

I am really disturbed this took place in a martial arts studio. There are huge power dynamics going on in martial arts schools. Huge. I hope that he was not higher rank than she was. Teaching obedience to higher ranks is a big deal in any school I've ever seen that was at all traditional. Obedience plus sex plus a huge age difference is freakishly inappropriate. I just hope that wasn't the case.

 

Again, not to be snide, but are young women really so ... self-esteemless? clueless? what-have-you that they would think that "obedience to a higher rank" meant they have to sleep with someone they don't want to sleep with? That lessons taught in a martial arts studio that have to do with martial arts are somehow so rigid that they encompass all aspects of life and all manner of obedience, no matter what? I had a teacher in school who wanted me to do something that I felt was inappropriate (and it was not even remotely sexual in nature) and I told him to stick it. And I am *not* an assertive person.

 

Tara

[Aubrey]

Texas Educator Code of Ethics says, "the educator shall not solicit or engage in sexual conduct or a romantic relationship with a student." If you want to have sex with 18 year old high school students, then don't be a teacher. It seems pretty cut and dry to me.

 

Right: that's reserved for politicians. ;)

 

I was a teacher in TX. I signed the same agreement. I'll tell you: it *never* occurred to me that it meant students outside of my school. Now, I admit, I didn't give it much thought, lol, being married, monogamous, & preferring men my own age, but still...

 

What the guy did was revolting, sure, but legal. If all of the teachers in my school who did revolting things were fired, they would have had to close the school.

 

What bothers ME is that if this guy had done the Exact. Same. Thing. w/ a kid who'd graduated early or attended highschool in another state, nobody would bat an eye, & *that* would have (likely) been far creepier, simply by virtue of being premeditated. So, yeah, I guess that means I side w/ the teacher in this case (having not actually read the article, just this thread).

 

Should teachers be held to a higher moral standard? That would be nice, but in today's society? I think that kind of thinking just sets a person up for disappointment. :glare:

 

It seems like a trap: the evil you know vs the evil you don't know. Until I remember that we don't *have* to send the kids to ps. ;) Whew!

[Sputterduck]

Again, not to be snide, but are young women really so ... self-esteemless? clueless? what-have-you that they would think that "obedience to a higher rank" meant they have to sleep with someone they don't want to sleep with? That lessons taught in a martial arts studio that have to do with martial arts are somehow so rigid that they encompass all aspects of life and all manner of obedience, no matter what? I had a teacher in school who wanted me to do something that I felt was inappropriate (and it was not even remotely sexual in nature) and I told him to stick it. And I am *not* an assertive person.

 

Tara

 

It sort of goes back to what Joanne was talking about in another thread about an imbalance of power. It's hugely inappropriate in a martial arts context if one outranks another. Actually, it's hugely inappropriate to be having sex in your martial arts school at all. Well, unless it's the owner and spouse. lol I say the owner can do whatever he wants with the spouse when students aren't around. :tongue_smilie:

[AmyTompkins]

Again, not to be snide, but are young women really so ... self-esteemless? clueless? what-have-you that they would think that "obedience to a higher rank" meant they have to sleep with someone they don't want to sleep with? That lessons taught in a martial arts studio that have to do with martial arts are somehow so rigid that they encompass all aspects of life and all manner of obedience, no matter what? I had a teacher in school who wanted me to do something that I felt was inappropriate (and it was not even remotely sexual in nature) and I told him to stick it. And I am *not* an assertive person.

 

Tara

 

Actually, yes. The discipline lessons taught in martial arts are intended to encompass your life. You either practice being disciplined or you do not.

[Aubrey]

Ok, now that I've read the whole thread, there's something else that bugs me. Years ago, I knew a 14yo kid who slept w/ her teacher. He was *actually* her teacher at the time. In TX. (He was late 20s.)

 

Her dad found out, called the police, & a tiny investigation was done. The police decided it was "young love" & let the guy go. He is *currently* teaching in TX.

[AmyTompkins]

It sort of goes back to what Joanne was talking about in another thread about an imbalance of power. It's hugely inappropriate in a martial arts context if one outranks another. Actually, it's hugely inappropriate to be having sex in your martial arts school at all. Well, unless it's the owner and spouse. lol I say the owner can do whatever he wants with the spouse when students aren't around. :tongue_smilie:

 

Wouldn't you say a high school teacher "outranks" a senior student?

[twoforjoy]

Ok, now that I've read the whole thread, there's something else that bugs me. Years ago, I knew a 14yo kid who slept w/ her teacher. He was *actually* her teacher at the time. In TX. (He was late 20s.)

 

Her dad found out, called the police, & a tiny investigation was done. The police decided it was "young love" & let the guy go. He is *currently* teaching in TX.

 

This much have been years and years ago. Today he'd be a registered sex offender and not allowed anywhere near anybody under 18.

[AmyTompkins]

Ok, now that I've read the whole thread, there's something else that bugs me. Years ago, I knew a 14yo kid who slept w/ her teacher. He was *actually* her teacher at the time. In TX. (He was late 20s.)

 

Her dad found out, called the police, & a tiny investigation was done. The police decided it was "young love" & let the guy go. He is *currently* teaching in TX.

 

 

Incredibly creepy and predatory. Inappropriate and illegal, right? Can you have sex with 14 year olds in the state of Texas? I actually don't know.

[Aubrey]

This much have been years and years ago. Today he'd be a registered sex offender and not allowed anywhere near anybody under 18.

 

It was in the late 90s--not *that* long ago.

[Aubrey]

Incredibly creepy and predatory. Inappropriate and illegal, right? Can you have sex with 14 year olds in the state of Texas? I actually don't know.

 

No, it absolutely should have been statutory rape, but because 14yo "loved" the guy, the police wouldn't do anything. By the time anybody found out, she was 16yo & this had been going on for a couple of years.

[Sputterduck]

Wouldn't you say a high school teacher "outranks" a senior student?

 

Yes, which makes this situation possibly doubly bad.

[Haiku]

Actually, yes. The discipline lessons taught in martial arts are intended to encompass your life. You either practice being disciplined or you do not.

 

My dad has a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. He also teaches Pentjak Silat, which is Philippine stick fighting. I talked to him a few minutes ago, and he said in no way is the "obedience to a higher rank" thing taught as, implicitly or explicitly, "you must do whatever anyone of a higher rank tells you." He said, in fact, that a student who were so reflexively obedient and thoughtless that she would be pressured into doing something "dishonorable" (his word) would be a poor student.

 

Additionally, do we know that either of these people were students at the martial arts studio? Or that the man in questioned outranked the woman? What if she were the senior student? Would he have to be obedient to her?

 

Tara