twoforjoy Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 This morning, DS (7) sat there looking at me blankly when I asked him what 10 minus 8 was, wailed that he DID. NOT. KNOW., and then pouted for a few minutes until he finally muttered "two." Then, tonight, I told him he had to get to bed at 9. I told him it was 8:34. He then told me, without a moment's hesitation, "I've got 26 more minutes!" :banghead: I don't know what to do with him. BTW, when I posted earlier about my son's aversion to math facts, people had asked if we'd done things like manipulatives and mental math. My DS has steadfastly refused to use manipulatives of any kind since I've started teaching him. He considers it "cheating" and doesn't want to do it. I've tried giving him Cuisinaire rods, an abacus, base 10 blocks, chips, convincing him to use his fingers. He gets upset with me if I try to use manipulatives to show him, because he says it makes him feel stupid. So I'm kind of at a loss for what to do. I'm totally fine with his using the abacus or blocks or his fingers, at this point, when doing addition and subtraction, if that will help him visualize things and make connections, but he's unwilling and very, very stubborn. I don't know if that's part of the issue, or if he just puts undo pressure on himself about math (and if he's not thinking about it as math, like tonight when he figured out the time, he doesn't have that pressure), or what. But it is darn frustrating to have a kid who can figure out problems like that in his head but then will turn around tomorrow morning and tell me he doesn't know what 6 plus 1 equals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Hmmmmm. I was going to say manipulatives but apparently that isn't an option. One thing I do with dd if she's stuck is to give her a related math fact & let work out the rest. i.e., "Mom, what's 15-4? I don't know!!" "Well, 15 minus 5 is 10." *insert mental calculation on dd's part here* "So it's 11?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EthiopianFood Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Are you sure he's not just bored?? Try asking him an equation similar to the one he did in his head to figure out the minutes. You could also try asking him a question in a casual situation, as though you're asking him for help, or maybe something that motivates him to answer. Maybe something involving candy and how much he will get if you are taking out a certain amount? I don't know if he would fall for it, but it's worth a try. I could be way off, though. It just seems so odd that he could answer such a difficult question so quickly, but not know such a simple one. I know bored kids will often act like work is too hard because they just don't want to "waste their time" doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Was he separated at birth from my 6 yr old? She does the same thing. If it's easy, she'll dither over it (although she's finally accepted that she can't get away with that for addition/subtraction 1 digit problems). If it's harder, no problem. Multi-step algebra problems using hands on equations, no problem. Math review? Tears and angst. Sigh.... The good news is that she maxed out the math computation section of the SAT-10, so apparently she was willing to demonstrate it when someone else was asking. It's just mommy who gets it. So maybe your son would do the same thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissKNG Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) Are you sure he's not just bored??. That's what I was thinking! My big girl does the same thing on "easy" stuff - hums, haws, doesn't know the answer, refuses to answer, etc, etc, etc! I would move on too! Which math program are you using, if any? I would check into Singapore Primary Math with the Challenging Word Problem and Intensive Practice books. Placements tests here. Edited June 21, 2011 by MissKNG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deniseibase Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Well, he KNOWS the math, clearly, since he can do the clock problems! So honestly, I doubt manipulatives would help anyway. It sounds to me like he is experiencing some anxiety about math SCHOOLWORK, possibly tied into a perfectionist streak? I tutored a public school girl who was having those issues the last two years - she had a therapist work with her on the anxiety part too - the family had recently suffered the death of their other young daughter, unrelated to the math but clearly affected everything for this young girl. We just threw out the grade level book she was 'supposed' to be in, and did lots of real life math and puzzles and such for awhile. After she started enjoying math again, as long as we didn't CALL it math :) , we started working in a lower grade level book until she felt confident. She would still freeze like a deer in the headlights a LOT. A big part of what I did was simply remaining very calm for her, and reminding her that she DID know this, her brain was just temporarily frozen because she was worried about it. Breaking things down into lots of leading questions helped, make things simpler and try to relate them to the real world math that the child already knows how to do - OK, 35 - 4, do you know the answer? No? What about 5-4? You forget? OK, 5-1? Do you remember what it means when we say minus? Ok, yes, take away, what if you have five of something and you take away one? If you have five apples and you give one to your mom, how many are left? Good! Now what if you have five apples and you take away four? Good! Now what if you have 35 apples and you take away four? No, don't freak out, you can do this. This is the EXACT SAME problem you just told me the answer to, just there is a 30 before the 5 now. Tell me the EXACT SAME answer you already told me, just make that one change, put a 30 before the 5. 31, yes, you did it!!' And yes, this WILL take a long time. And yes, you have to remain very calm and smiling so the child doesn't get upset because he sees YOU getting upset. But, it does work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiobrain Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Don't sweat it. He obviously understands the math... sometimes it is hard for a kid to access the answer. Also, some kids (I have one) have a different inner vocabulary and process for figuring math problems than yours. My son and I get into arguments over how I say something and how he thinks of them. They are almost opposite from each other. :tongue_smilie: A 7 yo bright kid might be insulted by being asked 10-8. 100-80 might seem more "challenging". It will be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I've had problems like what you're describing with my now 9yo son off and on for several years. One thing that helped with dealing with math facts was instead of having him do the easy ones over and over (10 - 8, for example), I started having him add and subtract two and three digit numbers in his head. All the sudden, he could do the easy stuff in the context of the harder problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddandgirls Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 This could be my DD who just turned eight. Driving me crazy. Knows the answers, but freezes if it's too easy. After talking with a woman who may test her for me this summer I believe DD is very visual spatial. So, the facts are boring and too easy and she fatigues at doing a page full of problems because she has to visualize each problem in her head to answer it, but conceptually she knows the answers. She's working at least a year and a half ahead topics wise, but cries to answer simple addition and subtraction problems, especially when pressured. She feels the same as your son about manipulatives. You would think it would help to see it, but she wants to see it in her head. I can show her once with them, but she won't use them over and over. The other issue with math facts is that she remembers everything else in her other subjects after seeing/hearing it once, she is not a drill, repetition student. Does you son have problems remembering other facts or is it just math? After much thought and online research I've decided to forgo the math workbooks and do lots of hands on math with games, cards, number lines and I'm thinking of using IXL online math to see if she would enjoy it. We will do some elementary geometry using magformers, etc. We'll make graphs and measure, and use math. Would he do math if it were in a game setting? My DD used to say she loved math and now she tells everyone she hates math, so math needs to become fun again. We will drill orally instead of on paper and we will play math games. We will move forward conceptually, but with less pencil and paper exercises and fewer problems on a page. If she can do it she doesn't need to do it a million times to prove it. I don't know if any of this would help in your situation, but taking a break from what looks like "typical" math might help. Just a few thoughts from someone in a similar boat. Danielle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Obviously your son knows math - so I'd suspect he might zone out when you ask a "babyish" question like 10-8. Some kids do not need manipulatives because they have good abstract reasoning already and hands-on stuff just irritates and bores them. I have two of those. I'd ditch the rods if he does not want them - somehow he has clearly mastered his addition facts - otherwise he could not do the clock problem. I'd try more challenging work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I have the same issues over the years with my 9 year old, but this is with multiplication. He could have a great week where he works quickly and accurately. The next week it's like he never saw multiplication. Do you have any ideas for that (because I like your idea here)? What I do notice is that it's better if I give him one or two challenging problems verses a sheet of easier problems. Have you taught him how to mentally multiply numbers like 38 x 7? 30 x 7 is 210 and 8 x 7 is 56 so 38 x 7 is 256. You could try that. Also, like you said, a few challenging problems can be just fine. I will frequently tell my son that if he can do one hard problem, particularly if it is review, he doesn't have to do the slew of easy ones. I think the reason that the challenging problems work better for my son is that it forces him to pay attention. When they're too easy, he uses half his brain and then makes silly mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Ds7 is like that as well, and it is definitely because he gets bored. We finished SM3A and are switching to EPGY with SM as a supplement. I decided to go back and review basic math facts before we switch, and he was extremely resistant to addition and subtraction facts. He would also blow up and even cry because he didn't know very simple one digit facts. Eventually I made it a race to see how fast he could do it, which made it more challenging for him because he wanted to beat his own best time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Have you taught him how to mentally multiply numbers like 38 x 7? 30 x 7 is 210 and 8 x 7 is 56 so 38 x 7 is 256. You could try that. Also, like you said, a few challenging problems can be just fine. I will frequently tell my son that if he can do one hard problem, particularly if it is review, he doesn't have to do the slew of easy ones. I think the reason that the challenging problems work better for my son is that it forces him to pay attention. When they're too easy, he uses half his brain and then makes silly mistakes. Close! It's 266. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Close! It's 266. :) :lol: I really shouldn't try to type out math examples before I've had my full allotment of coffee! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embassy Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 My son has done some of the same things. I've found that it isn't so much of him not knowing the more basic math fact, but his attention is off in some imaginary story happening in his brain. Because the focus is not there he doesn't know how to answer correctly. What helps him most is a time limit. When he has a set amount of time to complete something he snaps out of his dreams and completes everything pretty quickly. I hadn't thought that he might be bored. He is already ahead in his math and I'm hesitant to move him too much faster, but then again he was happily answering his older brother's math questions the other day. How do you move a child faster through math while making sure he isn't missing anything important? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoforjoy Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 How do you move a child faster through math while making sure he isn't missing anything important? This is my concern, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I have the same issues over the years with my 9 year old, but this is with multiplication. He could have a great week where he works quickly and accurately. The next week it's like he never saw multiplication. Do you have any ideas for that (because I like your idea here)? What I do notice is that it's better if I give him one or two challenging problems verses a sheet of easier problems. Huh. Rebecca does this too. Not quite with multiplication yet, but (months ago) she would have a harder time with single digit addition and subtraction than she would with 3-4 digit problems. I seriously had a fit one day when she could not do 12-2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybear Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I'm so sorry my son has been over at your house bothering you. :D I've been trying to figure this whole math thing with him out, but it sounds like there might be some good ideas to use on this thread (ie. like moving him forward.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 If it's easy, she'll dither over it...If it's harder, no problem. Multi-step algebra problems using hands on equations, no problem. Math review? Tears and angst. Sigh.... Oh, yeah, I *DEFINITELY* can relate to this! This is why DD is going to be finishing up Singapore 5A and then skipping straight to Discovering Math 1 plus Horizons Pre-Algebra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 How do you move a child faster through math while making sure he isn't missing anything important? Most programs review previously covered material before adding on. Go download the Scope & Sequence for whichever program you're using, and you'll see this. If you do happen to skip a book that covers some topic not touched upon later on, the single-topic Math Mammoth "blue" worktexts are an easy and inexpensive way to fill in the gaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK_Mom4 Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 We had this here too! When DD10 was 7yo and it was her first year homeschooling, she would do the whole drama-thing and freeze up on the easy problems! My solution was to skip her two grade levels in math. Then just do the tests until she missed something. She ended up doing Horizons 5 that year as a 2nd grader and hasn't slowed much since (we did have a little struggle with fractions and decimals, but that's a different story). Most of elementary math is the same thing - over and over and over. Give him something tougher and less repetitive and see if he flies. You can always go back to headbanging if it doesn't work. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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