CC- Theistic Evolution at Catholic Chatechisim

[justamouse]

I sat in mute wonder today listening to a Nun teach my children about evolution within the framework of the bible in an amazing, amazing way. I didn't expect that. My oldest son was sitting on the edge of his chair. He cant wait to go back next week. :001_huh:

 

I don't remember this from my own CCD classes (not that this class for my kids was CCD, but more of a religious education checkup before they are baptized.)

 

But it was the way she taught it. It brought even more glory to God if that made any sense. She *really* wanted to make sure that I wasn't teaching Genesis as science. I almost fell off my chair.

 

Do any of your kids in CCD say anything about this?

Edited May 26, 2011 by justamouse

[twoforjoy]

My CCD class was kind of a joke. It was basically health class (don't do drugs, don't drink and drive, etc.) plus a tiny bit of Catholic teaching. My DH's CCD class was really, really old-school and conservative (basically a list of what you don't want to do unless you want to go to hell). Perhaps surprisingly ;), neither of us is currently Catholic. I've been an Episcopalian since my early 20s and DH is agnostic.

 

I would be thrilled, though, if my kids has a lesson like that in RE. What an awesome experience and what a great nun.

[GWOB]

I am so very jealous!

 

Seriously, you guys need to stop talking about the Catholic church. You are making me feel very guilty. I was christened Catholic, but my parents left the church when I was very young. Your story about a nun teaching theistic evolution is a God-honoring way is almost enough to send me back to Rome.

[Avila]

I am jealous.

 

Our CCD is not that reflective. I wish it were!

[justamouse]

What an awesome experience and what a great nun.

 

I love her. I want to take her home with me. She loves what she does and it shows.

[justamouse]

I am so very jealous!

 

Seriously, you guys need to stop talking about the Catholic church. You are making me feel very guilty. I was christened Catholic, but my parents left the church when I was very young. Your story about a nun teaching theistic evolution is a God-honoring way is almost enough to send me back to Rome.

 

I'm telling you, I was utterly gobsmacked. Speechless. I sat there with this dumb smile on my face. :D It's why I had to post. I'm still dumbstruck.

[garddwr]

I would love to hear more--could you share some of what the nun taught? I studied a lot of biology/microbiology, and was always astounded at the intricacy of life. I have taken a somewhat agnostic position on evolutionary processes in the development of modern life on earth; I just feel like we don't know enough. But one thing I am certain of: God is the designer and organizer, life as we know it is not the product of random chance.

[Aquinas Academy]

I want to move to your parish! That sounds so wonderful. :) Unfotunately CCD at my parish is not very well done and my kids don't go to it.

[Parrothead]

Honestly I don't have a clue about what is going on in CCD classes. Since I'm on sabbatical from religious ed, I've not kept up with what is going on in dd's class.

[Mama2Many4]

I want to move to your parish! That sounds so wonderful. :) Unfotunately CCD at my parish is not very well done and my kids don't go to it.

 

Mine don't go either. We use religious materials everyday so they are Catechised at home. It's sad that not every parish has teachers that are so well versed in the faith to teach the children. I'm still learning things about our faith as I go along! All we did in CCD was make crafts and color! :001_huh:

[justamouse]

I would love to hear more--could you share some of what the nun taught? I studied a lot of biology/microbiology, and was always astounded at the intricacy of life. I have taken a somewhat agnostic position on evolutionary processes in the development of modern life on earth; I just feel like we don't know enough. But one thing I am certain of: God is the designer and organizer, life as we know it is not the product of random chance.

 

She started from the big bang. Then she talked about the earth cooling and God saying it was good. Then light and dark, plants and trees, through the 'days' of Genesis but how it's a metaphor for the process the earth went through.

 

When one of my kids said something about Adam and Eve, she corrected them and told them that we call them Adam and Eve, but it really means First Woman and First Man, and how they are telling the story of God through evolution. She told them that man started out as a single cell and took billions of years to grow into what God called Good. :001_smile: Then she explained original sin; That there were lots of homonids but that before they didn't know right from wrong, and it's when the intelligence for right and wrong, free will- came, that they 'became' Adam and Eve. And that original sin was their decision to not choose right. From there she went to Abraham and the line of Christ and through His resurrection.

 

It was wild.

 

 

I want to move to your parish! That sounds so wonderful. :) Unfotunately CCD at my parish is not very well done and my kids don't go to it.

 

Our parish is in an *amazing* growth spurt. It's tripled in the last three years. It's the Holy Spirit, that's for sure.

Edited May 26, 2011 by justamouse

[Mama2Many4]

She started from the big bang. Then she talked about the earth cooling and God saying it was good. Then light and dark, plants and trees, through the 'days' of Genesis but how it's a metaphor for the process the earth went through.

 

When one of my kids said something about Adam and Eve, she corrected them and told them that we call them Adam and Eve, but it really means First Woman and First Man, and how they are telling the story of God through evolution. She told them that man started out as a single cell and took billions of years to grow into what God called Good. :001_smile: Then she explained original sin; That there were lots of homonids but that before they didn't know right from wrong, and it's when the intelligence for right and wrong, free will- came, that they 'became' Adam and Eve. And that original sin was their decision to not choose right. From there she went to Abraham and the line of Christ and through His resurrection.

 

It was wild.

 

 

 

 

Our parish is in an *amazing* growth spurt. It's tripled in the last three years. It's the Holy Spirit, that's for sure.

 

So everything that we've been taught about a literal Adam and Eve is wrong? There was no man formed from the clay? No woman fashioned from his rib? They were not naked and in the Garden of Eden? I'm so confused.:confused:

 

I've been a Catholic all my life and this is the first I'm hearing of this. I never heard about anything put this way.

[WishboneDawn]

 

When one of my kids said something about Adam and Eve, she corrected them and told them that we call them Adam and Eve, but it really means First Woman and First Man, and how they are telling the story of God through evolution. She told them that man started out as a single cell and took billions of years to grow into what God called Good. :001_smile: Then she explained original sin; That there were lots of homonids but that before they didn't know right from wrong, and it's when the intelligence for right and wrong, free will- came, that they 'became' Adam and Eve. And that original sin was their decision to not choose right. From there she went to Abraham and the line of Christ and through His resurrection.

 

It was wild.

 

*sigh*

 

I'm Anglican but garsh, there are days when the RC calls pretty hard to me. There's a deep academic and intellectual streak in the RC that I don't think a lot of modern churches share. Yes, I'd even venture to say mine included. WE don't have anything like the Jesuits after all.

 

Wish I'd been there.:)

[justamouse]

So everything that we've been taught about a literal Adam and Eve is wrong? There was no man formed from the clay? No woman fashioned from his rib? They were not naked and in the Garden of Eden? I'm so confused.:confused:

 

I've been a Catholic all my life and this is the first I'm hearing of this. I never heard about anything put this way.

 

I DO know that the Holy Father has said that there is nothing at odds between belief in God and evolution. That science shows us how God works.

 

It wasn't what I was taught, that's for sure, and it's been a bone of contention for me because I do believe in theistic evolution-but to hear a nun teach it to my kids was just amazing.

[Mama2Many4]

I DO know that the Holy Father has said that there is nothing at odds between belief in God and evolution. That science shows us how God works.

 

It wasn't what I was taught, that's for sure, and it's been a bone of contention for me because I do believe in theistic evolution-but to hear a nun teach it to my kids was just amazing.

 

I'm going to have to look more into this. My mother taught me all the literal, and that's what I've been teaching to my children. I don't want them misinformed if it was in fact all through evolution. :tongue_smilie:

[actuary]

She started from the big bang. Then she talked about the earth cooling and God saying it was good. Then light and dark, plants and trees, through the 'days' of Genesis but how it's a metaphor for the process the earth went through.

 

When one of my kids said something about Adam and Eve, she corrected them and told them that we call them Adam and Eve, but it really means First Woman and First Man, and how they are telling the story of God through evolution. She told them that man started out as a single cell and took billions of years to grow into what God called Good. :001_smile: Then she explained original sin; That there were lots of homonids but that before they didn't know right from wrong, and it's when the intelligence for right and wrong, free will- came, that they 'became' Adam and Eve. And that original sin was their decision to not choose right. From there she went to Abraham and the line of Christ and through His resurrection.

 

.

 

That is awesome! She should write a book or something...I would totally want to read something like that. :)

[Mama2Many4]

So is it taught that we evolved from ape "like" humans? Is there somewhere that I can read about all of this?

[Avila]

I'm going to have to look more into this. My mother taught me all the literal, and that's what I've been teaching to my children. I don't want them misinformed if it was in fact all through evolution. :tongue_smilie:

 

Officially, Catholics can believe in evolution OR not believe in it. We just have to believe in creation -- that God is the cause and chose to create man. We don't specify the details on exactly how or when it happened.

 

I know Seton teaches creationism in the way you are more familiar with.

[Onceuponatime]

She started from the big bang. Then she talked about the earth cooling and God saying it was good. Then light and dark, plants and trees, through the 'days' of Genesis but how it's a metaphor for the process the earth went through.

 

When one of my kids said something about Adam and Eve, she corrected them and told them that we call them Adam and Eve, but it really means First Woman and First Man, and how they are telling the story of God through evolution. She told them that man started out as a single cell and took billions of years to grow into what God called Good. :001_smile: Then she explained original sin; That there were lots of homonids but that before they didn't know right from wrong, and it's when the intelligence for right and wrong, free will- came, that they 'became' Adam and Eve. And that original sin was their decision to not choose right. From there she went to Abraham and the line of Christ and through His resurrection.

 

It was wild.

 

 

 

 

.

 

I'm so glad to hear that some church somewhere is teaching like this. This is very, very similar to the conclusion I have come to. Reading The Language of God and God and Evolution (or was it Evolution and God?) really cemented this in my mind. I believe the mapping of the human genome and all the studies with DNA prove an evolutionary history with very little doubt, and that all life on earth is connected. I think it is actually quite awesome how God created us and our life support system.

[justamouse]

So is it taught that we evolved from ape "like" humans? Is there somewhere that I can read about all of this?

 

There is a book that I read, that's NOT Catholic, though, but excellent. The Language of God, by Dr. Francis Collins.

Officially, Catholics can believe in evolution OR not believe in it. We just have to believe in creation -- that God is the cause and chose to create man. We don't specify the details on exactly how or when it happened.

 

I know Seton teaches creationism in the way you are more familiar with.

 

Yes, true, either belief is accepted.

 

sorry thought you meant Seton taught Theistic Evolution.

Edited May 26, 2011 by justamouse

[WishboneDawn]

So is it taught that we evolved from ape "like" humans? Is there somewhere that I can read about all of this?

 

Any secular text could give you the nuts and bolts then a nice layer of Francis Collins over that would finish it off quite nicely. :)

 

ETA: The idea is that humans and apes evolved from common ancestors to be more specific. Two branches coming off the same trunk.

[Parrothead]

So is it taught that we evolved from ape "like" humans? Is there somewhere that I can read about all of this?

The sister's teaching is not OFFICIAL teaching. The only thing we are to believe is the God created all. Literal creation is still a common belief among Catholics.

 

For the record I've been a theistic evolutionist for about 30 years.

[Aquinas Academy]

That is awesome! She should write a book or something...I would totally want to read something like that. :)

:iagree:She should record her CCD classes too.

[Avila]

There is a book that I read, that's NOT Catholic, though, but excellent. The Language of God, by Dr. Francis Collins.

 

 

Yes, true, either belief is accepted.

 

sorry thought you meant Seton taught Theistic Evolution.

 

Yeah, I kind of wish it did in a way, because that would be helpful for us to have more options. Most of the Catholic homeschool programs either use protestant materials or lean toward literal creationism in their own materials.

[Murphy101]

Officially, Catholics can believe in evolution OR not believe in it. We just have to believe in creation -- that God is the cause and chose to create man. We don't specify the details on exactly how or when it happened.

 

I know Seton teaches creationism in the way you are more familiar with.

 

Thank you.

 

I would be VERY upset if a CCD teacher did this, nun or not. She is teaching her opinion as actual Church teaching and it is NOT.

 

And I don't even necessarily disagree with her.

My opinion would be the same over some creationist POV.

 

It is my opinion when we stand in Church over these children, especially standing over other people's children, we should be careful to only teach actual Church teaching.

[actuary]

Any secular text could give you the nuts and bolts then a nice layer of Francis Collins over that would finish it off quite nicely. :)

 

ETA: The idea is that humans and apes evolved from common ancestors to be more specific. Two branches coming off the same trunk.

 

Francis Collins is awesome! I loved his book Language of God. I think he even came and spoke at my church several years ago but sadly I missed hearing him talk.

[justamouse]

:iagree:She should record her CCD classes too.

 

You know, I thought that too, she's has the perfect voice for it.

Edited May 26, 2011 by justamouse

[Denise in Florida]

This is wonderful. I'll join the other posters and say I wish I had been there too.

[justamouse]

Thank you.

 

I would be VERY upset if a CCD teacher did this, nun or not. She is teaching her opinion as actual Church teaching and it is NOT.

 

And I don't even necessarily disagree with her.

My opinion would be the same over some creationist POV.

 

It is my opinion when we stand in Church over these children, especially standing over other people's children, we should be careful to only teach actual Church teaching.

 

The best part about it though is that both are accepted.

 

I'm thrilled with how she taught them, to tell the truth, because I would hate to later have to tell them that the nun was wrong and here's the real story. I think that undermines their faith.

[Pink Fairy]

I'm going to have to look more into this. My mother taught me all the literal, and that's what I've been teaching to my children. I don't want them misinformed if it was in fact all through evolution. :tongue_smilie:

 

The Church hasn't taken a position on this. You are free to teach it to your children either way. :)

 

We use a catechetical program called the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd, which is a Montessori method of teaching the Faith. Justamouse, what you describe sounds very similar to one of the level II presentations for the 6-9 year old child about the history of the Kingdom of God. Here's a link to a blog that explains more about the particulars.

[lionfamily1999]

The best part about it though is that both are accepted.

 

I'm thrilled with how she taught them, to tell the truth, because I would hate to later have to tell them that the nun was wrong and here's the real story. I think that undermines their faith.

I think that is why Martha's bothered, though. You agreed with the nun and it was great for you, but what about people that believe the other way and have to tell their children later that she was wrong? Faith undermined.

[Murphy101]

I think that is why Martha's bothered, though. You agreed with the nun and it was great for you, but what about people that believe the other way and have to tell their children later that she was wrong? Faith undermined.

 

YES!

 

Faith is undermined when people teach something as church teaching and it flat out is NOT.

 

If she had taught BOTH perspectives as possible and acceptable or taught neither, I'd have no issue.

 

But she didn't.

 

She taught ONLY HER perspective under the guise of official Church teaching. She is a NUN and an approved TEACHER at church and that sure appears very official to most kids and even their parents.

 

That is what was wrong of her and should be brought to the attention of the priest.

[wapiti]

This may be a little off-topic, but some of you might be interested to read the Pope's speech on Faith, Reason and the University (from before he was pope). http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/BenedictHellenism.php

[WishboneDawn]

I think that is why Martha's bothered, though. You agreed with the nun and it was great for you, but what about people that believe the other way and have to tell their children later that she was wrong? Faith undermined.

 

But then isn't that why it's a choice in the Catholic church? Because it's not a fundamental issue of faith? If you've taught your (I mean the generally of course) child that it is then maybe it's you that have gone beyond the boundaries of the teachings of the church.

 

I think the nun is well within her rights (as a non-Catholic that opinion may not count for much. :D). If theistic evolution is an idea welcome in the Catholic church then why not have children learn about it and understand the full range of belief in the RC?

 

ETA: I was just peeling potatoes and thinking about how I'd feel if I was the parent and the nun had described creation as a young earth thing. I think, after all, I might agree with Martha. Still, wish I'd been there! :D

Edited May 26, 2011 by WishboneDawn

[asta]

So everything that we've been taught about a literal Adam and Eve is wrong? There was no man formed from the clay? No woman fashioned from his rib? They were not naked and in the Garden of Eden? I'm so confused.:confused:

 

I've been a Catholic all my life and this is the first I'm hearing of this. I never heard about anything put this way.

 

Technically, the clay would be molecules.

 

This may be a little off-topic, but some of you might be interested to read the Pope's speech on Faith, Reason and the University (from before he was pope). http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/BenedictHellenism.php

 

I was going to suggest this.

 

 

Also, ya'll might want to do some searches on the Vatican's website in regards to this very subject. It is rather... eye opening. ;)

 

 

a

[kristinannie]

That is awesome! She should write a book or something...I would totally want to read something like that. :)

 

 

I completely agree!!!! This is exactly how I feel as a devout Catholic and a scientist. After taking Comparative and Developmental Anatomy in college, I could just had to believe in evolution. I have always said that the days weren't literal, but that the order that the things were created is actually the order they most likely came into being. I wish there was a DVD of that talk. You should try and talk to this nun and tell her to make a DVD or write a book. I would definitely purchase that!

[Parrothead]

 

 

Also, ya'll might want to do some searches on the Vatican's website in regards to this very subject. It is rather... eye opening. ;)

 

 

a

Aw, c'mon. Don'tcha want to post a link or two?

[Mama2Many4]

YES!

 

Faith is undermined when people teach something as church teaching and it flat out is NOT.

 

If she had taught BOTH perspectives as possible and acceptable or taught neither, I'd have no issue.

 

But she didn't.

 

She taught ONLY HER perspective under the guise of official Church teaching. She is a NUN and an approved TEACHER at church and that sure appears very official to most kids and even their parents.

 

That is what was wrong of her and should be brought to the attention of the priest.

 

 

Well, I'm sure glad that I don't have to believe it if I should choose not to. That would kind of discredit all that I've learned my entire life! Adam and Eve, Cain and Able, Noah's Ark, Moses and the parting of the Red Sea. Everything. Whew! :confused:

[Murphy101]

Well, I'm sure glad that I don't have to believe it if I should choose not to. That would kind of discredit all that I've learned my entire life! Adam and Eve, Cain and Able, Noah's Ark, Moses and the parting of the Red Sea. Everything. Whew! :confused:

 

Indeed.

 

For the record, if MY child came home from this discussion, I would not approach it as false teaching in this case. (tho I would have zero qualms doing so if that were the case.)

 

I would simply explain that she mistakenly only explained one acceptable view and this is the other, more traditional view.

 

Yeah.... I'm not thrilled with her rather murky view and extrapolations of biblical events either. I didn't hear her in person though, so I can't judge that aspect in it's entirety.:)

[Violet Crown]

3Blessings, I understand where you're coming from. I often feel, also, that if I'm given the choice between what has traditionally been believed and taught by the Church, and what Everyone Says Now, I'm better off with the former. As a CCD catechist, also, I try to stay hyper-aware of the solemn warning not to scandalize Little Ones (millstones, etc.).

 

I find it safest to stick with the Church Fathers and what has always and everywhere been believed. This has often shown me that the Church, in her wisdom, has on the one hand been unhesitating in passing down the stories of salvation history as infallible truth, but has at the same time given wide latitude in how we understand those stories. Here is, I think, a good article on St. Augustine's understanding of Genesis. St. Augustine earlier in his life took a much more allegorical view of Genesis, if you read his writings against the Manicheans; and it's my understanding that his ranging views reflect the Church's generous permission to understand these events of Scripture in various ways.

 

May God bless you as you pass on the faith to your children.

[Virg]

Thank you everyone for the links! I will be researching this further. My family has always felt the Bible was very scientific and actually teaches science if you look carefully, of course written in terms understood at the time. I am not sure how I feel about the extreme end of evolution but am willing to look into it. (Actually will love looking into it.)

[Greta Lea]

I read it a couple of months ago and my 17yo just finished it yesterday. Great book!

 

I'm going to have to look more into this. My mother taught me all the literal, and that's what I've been teaching to my children. I don't want them misinformed if it was in fact all through evolution. :tongue_smilie:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I sat in mute wonder today listening to a Nun teach my children about evolution within the framework of the bible in an amazing, amazing way. I didn't expect that. My oldest son was sitting on the edge of his chair. He cant wait to go back next week. :001_huh:

 

I don't remember this from my own CCD classes (not that this class for my kids was CCD, but more of a religious education checkup before they are baptized.)

 

But it was the way she taught it. It brought even more glory to God if that made any sense. She *really* wanted to make sure that I wasn't teaching Genesis as science. I almost fell off my chair.

 

Do any of your kids in CCD say anything about this?

 

I attended CCD classes in elementary school and went to Catholic middle school and a Jesuit prep school 30 plus years ago in a heavily Catholic area. I was never taught to take Genesis literally and only first heard of taking Genesis literally in homeschool circles in my late 40s or from an occasional news story prior to that. My understanding as I was growing up was similar to what this nun taught since I was taught similar things. Just because Genesis is not taken literally does not mean there is no truth to be found there;)

[cathmom]

Thank you.

 

I would be VERY upset if a CCD teacher did this, nun or not. She is teaching her opinion as actual Church teaching and it is NOT.

 

And I don't even necessarily disagree with her.

My opinion would be the same over some creationist POV.

 

It is my opinion when we stand in Church over these children, especially standing over other people's children, we should be careful to only teach actual Church teaching.

 

I agree. I would not have been happy about this.

[LittleIzumi]

she started from the big bang. Then she talked about the earth cooling and god saying it was good. Then light and dark, plants and trees, through the 'days' of genesis but how it's a metaphor for the process the earth went through.

 

When one of my kids said something about adam and eve, she corrected them and told them that we call them adam and eve, but it really means first woman and first man, and how they are telling the story of god through evolution. She told them that man started out as a single cell and took billions of years to grow into what god called good. :001_smile: Then she explained original sin; that there were lots of homonids but that before they didn't know right from wrong, and it's when the intelligence for right and wrong, free will- came, that they 'became' adam and eve. And that original sin was their decision to not choose right. From there she went to abraham and the line of christ and through his resurrection.

 

It was wild.

 

i love her.

[Mama2Many4]

3Blessings, I understand where you're coming from. I often feel, also, that if I'm given the choice between what has traditionally been believed and taught by the Church, and what Everyone Says Now, I'm better off with the former. As a CCD catechist, also, I try to stay hyper-aware of the solemn warning not to scandalize Little Ones (millstones, etc.).

 

I find it safest to stick with the Church Fathers and what has always and everywhere been believed. This has often shown me that the Church, in her wisdom, has on the one hand been unhesitating in passing down the stories of salvation history as infallible truth, but has at the same time given wide latitude in how we understand those stories. Here is, I think, a good article on St. Augustine's understanding of Genesis. St. Augustine earlier in his life took a much more allegorical view of Genesis, if you read his writings against the Manicheans; and it's my understanding that his ranging views reflect the Church's generous permission to understand these events of Scripture in various ways.

 

May God bless you as you pass on the faith to your children.

 

 

Thank you for the link! I'll be reading that tonight once the littles are in bed.

[Ellie]

I am so very jealous!

 

Seriously, you guys need to stop talking about the Catholic church. You are making me feel very guilty. I was christened Catholic, but my parents left the church when I was very young. Your story about a nun teaching theistic evolution is a God-honoring way is almost enough to send me back to Rome.

::whispers::Come back! Come back! Come back!!

[WishboneDawn]

...a Jesuit prep school...

 

Sooo jealous. I've often said that the only thing that would stop me from homeschooling would be a Jesuit school close by that I could send the kids too.

[WishboneDawn]

::whispers::Come back! Come back! Come back!!

 

Catholic evangelism. :) LOL!

[justamouse]

You know, I got in the car to take a kid to the Dr and KNEW I had put my foot in my mouth with that one. Sorry!

 

I think that is why Martha's bothered, though. You agreed with the nun and it was great for you, but what about people that believe the other way and have to tell their children later that she was wrong? Faith undermined.

 

I agree. If I were a devout creationist I would be furious. And I might not say that she was wrong, I would most likely say that it's one opinion.

 

YES!

 

Faith is undermined when people teach something as church teaching and it flat out is NOT.

 

If she had taught BOTH perspectives as possible and acceptable or taught neither, I'd have no issue.

 

But she didn't.

 

She taught ONLY HER perspective under the guise of official Church teaching. She is a NUN and an approved TEACHER at church and that sure appears very official to most kids and even their parents.

 

That is what was wrong of her and should be brought to the attention of the priest.

 

I am not saying anything. :p I loved it. *zipsmouth* And I've read what the Pope has had to say about it so I'm comfortable with it not being against the teaching of the church.