How to be a Tiger Mother without being such a...

[melissel]

...tiger? :D (What did you think I was going to say?!)

 

I've been thinking a lot about this since the first article was linked here. I've read threads and discussions here and other places. While I haven't read the book because I don't really care for Chua's methods (as presented in the media and her article, they nauseate me, though I'm trying to work up the nerve to read it), I do agree with and even admire some of her principles.

 

However, I wasn't raised in a way that promoted or rewarded persistence. My working parents pretty much left me to my own devices from the time I was able to get myself home from school on my own (2nd grade), to succeed or fail as I might. Poor grades were frowned upon, decent grades earned a "You can do better," good grades earned...actually, not much that I can remember :confused: They just didn't think about it. Extracurricular things were too much work on their part or too much money (even when they weren't--OK, so I harbor one small resentment!). So I don't really have a model for what engaged parents do for/with their kids.

 

I've always been of "coddle your kids" mindset, but now that they're older and I'm able to see them with a different lens, I can see that they're capable of so much more than I expect of them or demand of them or allow them to do. I want to give them standards to rise to, but I don't know where the line is between shrieking harridan taskmaster and what's really too much to expect. Where do I start? Is my 5-year-old too young for such expectations? What about a kid with a challenging personality? Is there a way to incorporate/implement Chua's underlying principles without breaking or demeaning your child in the meantime? Is there a boot camp for learning to be a more strict yet loving parent? Books that have inspired you in this way? Articles? Blogs? Thoughts? Magic fairy dust?

 

I would love to hear what others have to say.

 

TIA!

[Parrothead]

I'm probably going to get blasted but here goes.

 

While I do not agree with the tiger mom's approach - name calling, depriving of bathroom breaks - I do agree with her standards. I think many, many parents set low expectations of their children in order to not "damage their self-esteem." Personally IMHO I think that is a lot of hooey.

 

While telling a child over and over again along with demonstrating that one thinks they are a worthless piece of garbage can eventually lead to low self-esteem, having high expectations does not.

 

Also a parent can be a wonderful loving parent while at the same time demanding a high level of expectation.

 

I am not a coddler. When dd was a tot and fell down, I was the mom that said, "Oh, your not hurt. Get up and go play." Other moms would be "Oh, you poor baby. That must hurt a lot. I'm going to go spank that mean ole ground for hurting my little baby."

 

As an example with school work. Hand writing uses a lot of small muscles that don't get much of a work out during day-to-day activities. My attitude was/is, "I'm sorry it hurts. If you practice more it will stop hurting." As opposed to "Do a little bit today and a little bit tomorrow. Here's an ice pack for your hand. We will do our grammar verbally so you don't have to write anything else today."

 

I expect first time obedience. True story - at the apartments across the street just a way right after I moved in I heard this conversation:

Mom: Come in here.

Kid: No, I don't wanna.

Mom: Come here.

Kid: No, I want to go to the circus.

Mom: I'm not taking you to the circus. Come in this house.

Kid: I'm not coming in until you say we can go to the circus.

Mom: (Screaming now) Get in this house.

Kid: No, I want to go to the circus.

Mom: (Still screaming) I'm warning you...

 

At that point I went back into my house shaking my head and wondering why she just didn't yank the kid by the arm and bring him into the house. He was about 10 or so.

 

Same scenario in my house would look like this:

Me: Come in the house.

Dd: Okay, be right there.

 

While there is lots of love, dancing in the kitchen, hugs and kisses all day long having high expectations is also part of our lives. I expect a proper attitude be displayed in the public rooms of the house. I don't care what goes on behind a closed bedroom door. I expect manners to be use. I expect grade level or above grade level school work (except for spelling, and there is a valid reason). These people writing curriculum have a fairly good idea of what a typical 3rd grader or a 6th grader or a freshman can do.

 

I also expect proficiency and practice at dance. I'm finding a new martial arts for dd since the one she is at now is not rigorous enough to suit me. If I'm paying for lessons, by golly, I expect dd to do her absolute best and I expect the instructor to instruct.

 

Dd has great self esteem. Her spirit hasn't been broken. She always has been a shy unassuming kid though. I'm open, we talk about lots of things every day. We even talk about why I expect more from her than other moms expect from their kids.

 

I have a friend that homeschools. My friend has said numerous times (and dd has talked about it with my friend's kids who are her friends) that she only expects to get 3/4 the way through the books in a single school year. I don't find that acceptable for our school. Dd knows why. And while she can be a bit jealous of her friends not completing their books, she knows in the end she will have just that much more of a education.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Parrothead

[JudoMom]

I think you might be pleasantly surprised by the book. It's a quick read (I finished it in a weekend), and fascinating. While she has high standards and her methods are different than Westerners, she's not as "tiger-y" as the articles make her sound. She also met her match in her youngest daughter. It made me think about how often my parenting is on the lazy side...

[tearose]

.

[Just Robyn]

In my personal experience, when the parent has low expectations it can mean the child will achieve much less, not because of low self-esteem and thinking that "can't" do this or that, but because doing a bit less than this or that is still acceptable, or even good, according to the parents. This is in regards to the middle school or high school aged child. It's just natural laziness. I'm not saying no kids are self-motivated enough to achieve great things despite low expectations.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have a model either and thus no advice. I guess I'm not all that helpful - sorry.

[Renthead Mommy]

I'm probably going to get blasted but here goes. Not by me in the least!

 

While I do not agree with the tiger mom's approach - name calling, depriving of bathroom breaks - I do agree with her standards. I think many, many parents set low expectations of their children in order to not "damage their self-esteem." Personally IMHO I think that is a lot of hooey.

:iagree::iagree:

 

Also a parent can be a wonderful loving parent while at the same time demanding a high level of expectation.

:iagree:

 

 

I am not a coddler. When dd was a tot and fell down, I was the mom that said, "Oh, your not hurt. Get up and go play." Other moms would be "Oh, you poor baby. That must hurt a lot. I'm going to go spank that mean ole ground for hurting my little baby."

 

At a toddle aged playgroup, so the mom's were on their first baby, and may were either pregnant or had only newborn/infant for a second, in other words, still very newbie moms, I was heard calling across the playgroud "It's only a flesh wound! Put your eye back in your head and go play!"

 

The newbie all looked at me wide eyed. I was like "What? If he was really hurt he'd cry different or he'd come over here." Shrug.

 

 

 

I think you might be pleasantly surprised by the book. It's a quick read (I finished it in a weekend), and fascinating. While she has high standards and her methods are different than Westerners, she's not as "tiger-y" as the articles make her sound. She also met her match in her youngest daughter. It made me think about how often my parenting is on the lazy side...

 

I think this is too often the problem for most people. Myself included. Somedays it's just easier to do it yourself then force them to do it. Lately I've started to do something, realized that, stopped, put it back the way it was and enforced what I want done.

 

Somewhere along the way I started telling my 8 1/2 year old that things that are worth it are hard. This had to do with things like math and piano. I suddenly realized it also had to do with raising kid right. Making him learn how to stand up, do what right, do what's expected and do more than just want is easy is going to be hard. FOR ME as well as him. But then I remember things that are worth it are hard. He's worth it.

 

This past weekend we cleaned up the yard. I gave him a plastic fan rake and said have at it. There was whining. There was toss the rake out and sort of slide it back across the grass. Basically doing nothing. There was a complaint of "I bet all my other friends are playing and I'm WORKING!'

 

"Yup, you are. You are a part of this family, a part of society and you are going to grow up and be a responsible adult!" (And none of your friends are home, they are at their Saturday activities, so get over it!)

 

When my neighbor did come home and all the kids went to play we were talking about this. I told her "The coddling of the American child is spilling over onto my kid. And the spillage is going to stop!" First she busted a gut laughing, but after she was able to pull herself together, she completely agreed.

[redsquirrel]

I think you can have high expectations of and for your child without being shame and fear based.

[MariannNOVA]

I'm probably going to get blasted but here goes.

 

.

 

Not by me -- I thought that what you wrote was right on target.

 

I want to add that ime I think that sometimes it doesn't even go as deeply as 'expectations' placed on the child........there aren't any 'expectations' because the parents are simply LAZY!:glare: Many people want to have BABIES......not children!:glare:

[duckens]

I have not read the Tiger Mom book yet.

 

I do believe in high standards. When I homeschooled as a nanny, it was okay if the children missed questions on their work and tests....but they were expected to fix everything and to know why they missed the problem so it didn't happen again.

 

Politeness is required. You don't need to like everyone; you DO need to be polite.

 

I think we need to know our children well.

 

I think we need to know how to push them just beyond their current abilities. And we need to be there to support them through it.

 

I think we need to be willing to step in to do things with our children as they learn a new skill and gain proficiency.

 

I think we need to break big tasks down into smaller task for our younger children, and we need to teach/model for our children how to break big tasks down themselves.

 

Accomplishments need to be acknowledged appropriately.

 

Hopefully we listen to our children and encourage them in their dreams rather than our own.

 

That said, Reading/Writing/Arithmetic are not optional in this household. If one can master those three subjects, one has a good base for all subjects and fields.

[Rosie_0801]

I am not a coddler. When dd was a tot and fell down, I was the mom that said, "Oh, your not hurt. Get up and go play." Other moms would be "Oh, you poor baby. That must hurt a lot. I'm going to go spank that mean ole ground for hurting my little baby."

 

 

Oh my goodness! I hate that! Can't a person take responsibility? (ARGH!) Dd got pretty early that she hurt herself, no one else did it. The ground did not jump up and biff her and tables do not deliberately move to trip people up. :glare: Of course now the phrase in her head is "hurt self" so if she hits her brother over the head with a block, he "hurt hisself." :lol:We're working on the "uh, no, YOU hurt him" concept at the moment. :rolleyes: I'm big on responsibility. I'm the type to say that a baby is more than capable of being responsible for putting his own fist in his own mouth. Now that the mamma brain is lifting, I'm left wondering why that could ever have needed to be said.

 

And as for lazy parenting. I think there is good lazy and bad lazy. I have no interest in regaling you with lists of my flaws :D but the reason my daughter has the body confidence she does is because I was too lazy to supervise "properly." If she hits the ground, I'm there within seconds, if she's up high enough that she should break if she fell, I'm there already, but I'm convinced the only reason the average child needs parents to helicopter in playgrounds is because their parents do it. Leave them alone and let them work it out and they won't need you to be there!

 

So ranteth Rosie with all the wisdom of a mother of pre schoolers. :D I used to be a daisy and brownie leader too, and those kids were capable of much more than most people allowed them. How exactly is a six year old child going to hurt themselves with a bread and butter knife when you are standing right there watching them?

 

I think if expectations of our children are tied to our expectations of ourselves with regards guiding them, we can't go too far wrong for too long. And if we do, well we can't do better than our best any more than they can.

 

Rosie

[Joyofsixreboot]

We have high expectations and are not coddlers (we're the parents yelling "suck it up, rub some dirt on it".) We are still fun and loving and have never had to with hold bathroom priveleges. Some of my kids are lots more challengIng than others but I think in the end kids KNOW how you're going to react and exactly how far you'll budge. Expect the best, not perfection, and you will mostly get it. As an aside my parents were depression era kids who left home at 14 to work. They expected the best because they never knew another way to be. I'm not sure when that attitude got lost culturally.

[RoundAbout]

I think it starts when parents have high expectations and standards for themselves. My father did homework at the kitchen table every night, eventually earning his BS in engineering and lifting our family out of poverty and into the middle class. My mom often worked two jobs to help pay his tuition. That was all I needed.

 

In that environment I sure didn't need anyone beating me over the head about the importance of education, making me do my school work, or defining ambitions for me. I saw what hard work could achieve. I just needed a supportive environment, decent schools, and lots of books.

[MaMa2005]

I'm probably going to get blasted but here goes.

 

While I do not agree with the tiger mom's approach - name calling, depriving of bathroom breaks - I do agree with her standards. I think many, many parents set low expectations of their children in order to not "damage their self-esteem." Personally IMHO I think that is a lot of hooey.

 

While telling a child over and over again along with demonstrating that one thinks they are a worthless piece of garbage can eventually lead to low self-esteem, having high expectations does not.

 

Also a parent can be a wonderful loving parent while at the same time demanding a high level of expectation.

 

I am not a coddler. When dd was a tot and fell down, I was the mom that said, "Oh, your not hurt. Get up and go play." Other moms would be "Oh, you poor baby. That must hurt a lot. I'm going to go spank that mean ole ground for hurting my little baby."

 

As an example with school work. Hand writing uses a lot of small muscles that don't get much of a work out during day-to-day activities. My attitude was/is, "I'm sorry it hurts. If you practice more it will stop hurting." As opposed to "Do a little bit today and a little bit tomorrow. Here's an ice pack for your hand. We will do our grammar verbally so you don't have to write anything else today."

 

I expect first time obedience. True story - at the apartments across the street just a way right after I moved in I heard this conversation:

Mom: Come in here.

Kid: No, I don't wanna.

Mom: Come here.

Kid: No, I want to go to the circus.

Mom: I'm not taking you to the circus. Come in this house.

Kid: I'm not coming in until you say we can go to the circus.

Mom: (Screaming now) Get in this house.

Kid: No, I want to go to the circus.

Mom: (Still screaming) I'm warning you...

 

At that point I went back into my house shaking my head and wondering why she just didn't yank the kid by the arm and bring him into the house. He was about 10 or so.

 

Same scenario in my house would look like this:

Me: Come in the house.

Dd: Okay, be right there.

 

While there is lots of love, dancing in the kitchen, hugs and kisses all day long having high expectations is also part of our lives. I expect a proper attitude be displayed in the public rooms of the house. I don't care what goes on behind a closed bedroom door. I expect manners to be use. I expect grade level or above grade level school work (except for spelling, and there is a valid reason). These people writing curriculum have a fairly good idea of what a typical 3rd grader or a 6th grader or a freshman can do.

 

I also expect proficiency and practice at dance. I'm finding a new martial arts for dd since the one she is at now is not rigorous enough to suit me. If I'm paying for lessons, by golly, I expect dd to do her absolute best and I expect the instructor to instruct.

 

Dd has great self esteem. Her spirit hasn't been broken. She always has been a shy unassuming kid though. I'm open, we talk about lots of things every day. We even talk about why I expect more from her than other moms expect from their kids.

 

I have a friend that homeschools. My friend has said numerous times (and dd has talked about it with my friend's kids who are her friends) that she only expects to get 3/4 the way through the books in a single school year. I don't find that acceptable for our school. Dd knows why. And while she can be a bit jealous of her friends not completing their books, she knows in the end she will have just that much more of a education.

 

I think perhaps you are my twin :001_smile:.

 

Just yesterday, when DS left his piano lesson, his teacher stated that he had to have three wiggle breaks (and in her eyes that was fine :001_huh:) The look on my face said it all :toetap05: As we discussed afterwards, piano is for learning piano, not wiggling. Since DS didn't make the correct choice, DH and I made his choices for him for the rest of the day. Quick and swift consequences, open discussion and gave DS some food for thought.

 

Was DS fine today? Yes, and he learned a valuable lesson yesterday.

[angela in ohio]

I've been called... formidable... as a homeschool mother. :D Just yesterday my college advisor told me she knows I will have no problem teaching high school, because I have a look about me. We have very high academic standards, each dc is expected to play an instrument and take art lessons, we require "old-fashioned" manners and respect, etc. In our family (my extended family,) it is actually a function of Irish immigrant values.

 

So, anyway, here is my advice: (1.) Do you have a friend IRL who you think has higher expectations? A great way to work on things like this is to have someone watch you for a day, or to watch them for a day. It helps to see how other people do things. You could also keep notes on a few days at your hoe and then analyze it later to look for areas to change. (2.) As you plan your school year, read through WTM, Veritas Press, and other catalogs/books that describe a rigorous education. (3.) The book Protocol Matters describes a very formal approach to manners and respect. There are others that are less intense, I'm sure.

 

I think a lot of people think that high expectations endanger a good relationship. You will find that the opposite is true (as long as you don't go crazy.) My dh taught special education students for years. He had very high expectations, both for their behavior and for their academic careers. He routinely brought students up 2 or more grade levels in one year. Those students loved him. He is invited to their graduations, they run across grocery stores to say hello to him. In fact, the more strict he had to be to a student, the more that student seems to glow when they are around him.

 

There is a book called Head of the Class that presents a more reasonable view of stereotypical Asian parenting. I found myself nodding along to much of it; and it offers some practical advice, even though some of it focuses more on high stakes college admissions. Also, the TIME article on Chua was very balanced (she spoke almost of classical education as the ideal, interestingly.)

[melissel]

(1.) Do you have a friend IRL who you think has higher expectations? A great way to work on things like this is to have someone watch you for a day, or to watch them for a day. It helps to see how other people do things. You could also keep notes on a few days at your hoe and then analyze it later to look for areas to change.

 

All of our friends are unschoolers :lol: They already think I'm over the top for using curriculum, whereas I feel like we're a year behind! But I hear what you're saying, and I'm reading every word you're all posting.

 

So I have a very practical sort of question then. Let's say, for example, my DD8 is struggling with a math concept. On a bad day, this can send her weeping to her room, proclaiming that she hates math and hates school and is never coming back out. (These days are rare, but they do happen.) How does a "tiger mom" handle that? Does she drag the kicking, screaming child back to the table to finish the work? Does she let her sulk awhile, go in and talk to her about the bigger picture, and ease her back out to the table? How do you handle drama?

 

And honestly, my bigger concern is my DD5, who is very...temperamental. She and I don't mesh well (similar personalities, ahem). DD8 is eager to please. DD5 is eager to thwart. I truly don't know how I will handle her.

[Jean in Newcastle]

All of our friends are unschoolers :lol: They already think I'm over the top for using curriculum, whereas I feel like we're a year behind! But I hear what you're saying, and I'm reading every word you're all posting.

 

So I have a very practical sort of question then. Let's say, for example, my DD8 is struggling with a math concept. On a bad day, this can send her weeping to her room, proclaiming that she hates math and hates school and is never coming back out. (These days are rare, but they do happen.) How does a "tiger mom" handle that? Does she drag the kicking, screaming child back to the table to finish the work? Does she let her sulk awhile, go in and talk to her about the bigger picture, and ease her back out to the table? How do you handle drama?

 

And honestly, my bigger concern is my DD5, who is very...temperamental. She and I don't mesh well (similar personalities, ahem). DD8 is eager to please. DD5 is eager to thwart. I truly don't know how I will handle her.

 

This tiger mom would handles my very similar 9 year old by giving her 5 minutes to calm down. I will go to her door and tell her "I'm putting on the timer for 5 minutes, when it goes off, we will be working on phonics (ie. a subject other than the melt-down one)." Then once phonics is over, we will look at the math together to see how we can fix the problem. I'll ask her if it would help for me to explain it a different way, if we should find a game to help teach it (I will google for these - only offer this as a choice if you really want it because this will almost always be the choice!) or if she wants Daddy to show her. If this was not a rare occurrence then I would probably handle it differently.

 

With someone eager to thwart, I offer choices that I can live with ie. "Do you want to do your math at the table or at the desk" but not "Do you want to do math"!

[angela in ohio]

All of our friends are unschoolers :lol: They already think I'm over the top for using curriculum, whereas I feel like we're a year behind! But I hear what you're saying, and I'm reading every word you're all posting.

 

So I have a very practical sort of question then. Let's say, for example, my DD8 is struggling with a math concept. On a bad day, this can send her weeping to her room, proclaiming that she hates math and hates school and is never coming back out. (These days are rare, but they do happen.) How does a "tiger mom" handle that? Does she drag the kicking, screaming child back to the table to finish the work? Does she let her sulk awhile, go in and talk to her about the bigger picture, and ease her back out to the table? How do you handle drama?

 

And honestly, my bigger concern is my DD5, who is very...temperamental. She and I don't mesh well (similar personalities, ahem). DD8 is eager to please. DD5 is eager to thwart. I truly don't know how I will handle her.

 

"You are having a bad time with one concept, but that doesn't mean you need to act like that, because I know you have more self-control than that. As soon as you are able to behave in a mature way, you may come back to the table and we will work on it again. You are doing well at math, and you can get through this if you just apply yourself. If you take long, though, we will have to take the time that we were going to spend on __(insert desirable activity)__."

 

We treat school time as a privilege, and so they need to earn the right to have me work with them at the table. Being sent away from the school table or told not to return for a bit is a consequence.

 

I don't deal with drama. Ever. Period. They can have some time to calm down in their room, and we discuss it once they are calm. But I make sure it never becomes a way of actually avoiding doing something. I don't go in and have long heart-felt chats during this time, because I'm not about to reward that behavior with extra attention. I talk to them at another time, when they are being reasonable.

 

My second dd was incredibly challenging, and she would throw some fits. Wowza! Now we laugh about it together. :001_smile: She spent quite a bit of time "cooling off," but it was very effective because she is very social and didn't like to be sent away to calm down.

 

I hear you about the unschoolers. That makes it hard. I try to have friends who are both more and less rigorous than we are. :001_smile: We used to be in a group with many unschoolers, and they gave me such a hard time. :D

[Parrothead]

The book Protocol Matters describes a very formal approach to manners and respect. There are others that are less intense, I'm sure.

I just put that book in my Amazon cart.

[melissel]

Thank you, Jean! That makes a lot of sense, and it would work here.

 

With someone eager to thwart, I offer choices that I can live with ie. "Do you want to do your math at the table or at the desk" but not "Do you want to do math"!

 

I have a further question here. I've heard the "give two acceptable choices" recommendation many times, and I do use it. But often, when the question is something like, "Would you rather start with handwriting or phonics?" the response is, "Nothing! I'm NOT DOING IT! Noooooooo..." Then what?

[Parrothead]

 

So I have a very practical sort of question then. Let's say, for example, my DD8 is struggling with a math concept. On a bad day, this can send her weeping to her room, proclaiming that she hates math and hates school and is never coming back out. (These days are rare, but they do happen.) How does a "tiger mom" handle that? Does she drag the kicking, screaming child back to the table to finish the work? Does she let her sulk awhile, go in and talk to her about the bigger picture, and ease her back out to the table? How do you handle drama?

 

 

Temper tantrums are not allowed in public areas. Drama is just another word for tantrum. You may not want to drag the kicking screaming child back to the table to finish the work, but you should drag the kicking and screaming child back to the table to apologize for her behavior. You bring her back to practice being excused. You bring her back to teach her (model it for her) the behavior you expect.

 

You go get her from her room. You tell her that you understand she is frustrated but she must follow the rules. Now she has to come back to the table and ask politely to be excused. And if she hasn't asked to be excused to your satisfaction, she has to ask again after you model what you want.

 

Once you get the expected behavior, allow her to go to her room where she may punch her pillow or scream into it.

 

Remember that you have to model the behavior you want. If you tell her to do it again without exact instruction, you'll only further yourself and her.

 

That said, your part is to make sure she isn't overly frustrated during math. There is a very fine line between practice, practice, practice and being overly frustrated. You have to know your child really well to know when that line is getting close. You have to know when backing off of for the day will allow the kiddo to think it over. She has to work it out in her own mind.

[melissel]

You may not want to drag the kicking screaming child back to the table to finish the work, but you should drag the kicking and screaming child back to the table to apologize for her behavior. You bring her back to practice being excused. You bring her back to teach her (model it for her) the behavior you expect.

 

Physically? Because there have been times (with both) where literally only physically dragging them from their rooms would accomplish getting them back to the table. Or is there some other method of commanding them back to the table? (I'm sorry to be so nitpicky on the details, but truly, that's where my big, bold plans fall apart--I'm never sure how far to push/insist.)

 

That said, your part is to make sure she isn't overly frustrated during math. There is a very fine line between practice, practice, practice and being overly frustrated. You have to know your child really well to know when that line is getting close. You have to know when backing off of for the day will allow the kiddo to think it over. She has to work it out in her own mind.

 

And yes, you are right. Sometimes it take me by surprise, because she tries so hard to hold it together because she knows the crying make my head spin--then when I see she's starting to go over the edge, I say something like, "OK, hang on, let's take a minute..." and she's off in hysterics :banghead: I'll have to watch more carefully for the hidden frustration.

Edited March 17, 2011 by melissel

[teachmejoy]

I'm probably going to get blasted but here goes.

 

While I do not agree with the tiger mom's approach - name calling, depriving of bathroom breaks - I do agree with her standards. I think many, many parents set low expectations of their children in order to not "damage their self-esteem." Personally IMHO I think that is a lot of hooey.

 

While telling a child over and over again along with demonstrating that one thinks they are a worthless piece of garbage can eventually lead to low self-esteem, having high expectations does not.

 

Also a parent can be a wonderful loving parent while at the same time demanding a high level of expectation.

 

I am not a coddler. When dd was a tot and fell down, I was the mom that said, "Oh, your not hurt. Get up and go play." Other moms would be "Oh, you poor baby. That must hurt a lot. I'm going to go spank that mean ole ground for hurting my little baby."

 

As an example with school work. Hand writing uses a lot of small muscles that don't get much of a work out during day-to-day activities. My attitude was/is, "I'm sorry it hurts. If you practice more it will stop hurting." As opposed to "Do a little bit today and a little bit tomorrow. Here's an ice pack for your hand. We will do our grammar verbally so you don't have to write anything else today."

 

I expect first time obedience. True story - at the apartments across the street just a way right after I moved in I heard this conversation:

Mom: Come in here.

Kid: No, I don't wanna.

Mom: Come here.

Kid: No, I want to go to the circus.

Mom: I'm not taking you to the circus. Come in this house.

Kid: I'm not coming in until you say we can go to the circus.

Mom: (Screaming now) Get in this house.

Kid: No, I want to go to the circus.

Mom: (Still screaming) I'm warning you...

 

At that point I went back into my house shaking my head and wondering why she just didn't yank the kid by the arm and bring him into the house. He was about 10 or so.

 

Same scenario in my house would look like this:

Me: Come in the house.

Dd: Okay, be right there.

 

While there is lots of love, dancing in the kitchen, hugs and kisses all day long having high expectations is also part of our lives. I expect a proper attitude be displayed in the public rooms of the house. I don't care what goes on behind a closed bedroom door. I expect manners to be use. I expect grade level or above grade level school work (except for spelling, and there is a valid reason). These people writing curriculum have a fairly good idea of what a typical 3rd grader or a 6th grader or a freshman can do.

 

I also expect proficiency and practice at dance. I'm finding a new martial arts for dd since the one she is at now is not rigorous enough to suit me. If I'm paying for lessons, by golly, I expect dd to do her absolute best and I expect the instructor to instruct.

 

Dd has great self esteem. Her spirit hasn't been broken. She always has been a shy unassuming kid though. I'm open, we talk about lots of things every day. We even talk about why I expect more from her than other moms expect from their kids.

 

I have a friend that homeschools. My friend has said numerous times (and dd has talked about it with my friend's kids who are her friends) that she only expects to get 3/4 the way through the books in a single school year. I don't find that acceptable for our school. Dd knows why. And while she can be a bit jealous of her friends not completing their books, she knows in the end she will have just that much more of a education.

 

:iagree: Bravo! Well Said! :D

[Penelope]

Though I don't agree with everything Chua wrote, I think there is a lot of wisdom in the book.

 

And I think the brief media interviews and the articles were not quite representative of the book. The book shows some intense moments, but is more balanced.

 

In the book she actually spells out her mistakes, where she pushed one daughter too hard, and damaged their relationship. But she also shows an outcome in which her daughters are very high achievers who are thankful she pushed them in many areas.

[Allearia]

I'm probably going to get blasted but here goes.

 

While I do not agree with the tiger mom's approach - name calling, depriving of bathroom breaks - I do agree with her standards. I think many, many parents set low expectations of their children in order to not "damage their self-esteem." Personally IMHO I think that is a lot of hooey.

 

While telling a child over and over again along with demonstrating that one thinks they are a worthless piece of garbage can eventually lead to low self-esteem, having high expectations does not.

 

Also a parent can be a wonderful loving parent while at the same time demanding a high level of expectation.

 

:thumbup::iagree:

This is my attitude and I am so happy not to be alone! I agree with everything you said.

[Parrothead]

Physically? Because there have been times (with both) where literally only physically dragging them from their rooms would accomplish getting them back to the table. Or is there some other method of commanding them back to the table? (I'm sorry to be so nitpicky on the details, but truly, that's where my big, bold plans fall apart--I'm never sure how far to push/insist.)

I don't know that I'd drag a child around, but if I were physically able I'd pick said child up and carry her to where she needs to be.

 

 

And yes, you are right. Sometimes it take me by surprise, because she tries so hard to hold it together because she knows the crying make my head spin--then when I see she's starting to go over the edge, I say something like, "OK, hang on, let's take a minute..." and she's off in hysterics :banghead: I'll have to watch more carefully for the hidden frustration.

When you sense she is trying to hold it all together you'll have to stop.

 

Make sure she is well rested, properly fed and capable.

 

Do you back down when she cries? If so she has trained you well. ;)

 

Have you tried saying something like, "Yes, I see you are frustrated. Let's go wash your face and take a moment. We will come back to this in just a second." Then go with her, wash her face with a soft cloth, give her kisses and a hug, then go back to the table.

 

When hysterics/drama/tantrum start take her by the hand to her room and let her know you'll come back in 5 minutes to wash her face with cool water and help her blow her nose then she can apologize for the hysterics/drama/tantrum. Then let's try it again one more time before finishing that particular subject.

 

You validate her feelings, but you also show by example that one must persevere and continue on with the work at hand.

[Rosie_0801]

I have a further question here. I've heard the "give two acceptable choices" recommendation many times, and I do use it. But often, when the question is something like, "Would you rather start with handwriting or phonics?" the response is, "Nothing! I'm NOT DOING IT! Noooooooo..." Then what?

 

How about "Do you have an alternative I will find acceptable?" (Calmly repeat until they calm down and answer.)

 

If the answer is something reasonable, like wanting to do science first, that can be done.

 

If it is something that sounds slightly less reasonable like "I want to walk the dog," you might need to clarify. "How about this? We get ready and go walk the dog now, then we will come home and do handwriting, then phonics." If they can agree to that, go walk the dog. After all, the exercise won't hurt them. If they come home and refuse to sit down for phonics, they need to be reminded that you had struck a bargain. If they throw a tanty over that, they must need a nap.

 

If they can't find an acceptable alternative, even if you've repeated "That is not an acceptable alternative, do you have an acceptable alternative?" a few times, they must need to take a nap. If, when they get back up, you greet them with a "good morning" as though they have started the day again, they should learn to trust that it is worth getting up again. Getting up knowing you're going to get a great long lecture, isn't going to inspire an obliging mood.

 

Of course my kids are too little to argue over schoolwork, but I've used this sort of style on many brownies and we usually get somewhere eventually once they realise we are serious, but we're not going to hold grudges. Of course these things are easier with other people's kids...

 

Rosie

[Parrothead]

How about "Do you have an alternative I will find acceptable?" (Calmly repeat until they calm down and answer.)

 

If the answer is something reasonable, like wanting to do science first, that can be done.

 

If it is something that sounds slightly less reasonable like "I want to walk the dog," you might need to clarify. "How about this? We get ready and go walk the dog now, then we will come home and do handwriting, then phonics." If they can agree to that, go walk the dog. After all, the exercise won't hurt them. If they come home and refuse to sit down for phonics, they need to be reminded that you had struck a bargain. If they throw a tanty over that, they must need a nap.

 

If they can't find an acceptable alternative, even if you've repeated "That is not an acceptable alternative, do you have an acceptable alternative?" a few times, they must need to take a nap. If, when they get back up, you greet them with a "good morning" as though they have started the day again, they should learn to trust that it is worth getting up again. Getting up knowing you're going to get a great long lecture, isn't going to inspire an obliging mood.

 

Of course my kids are too little to argue over schoolwork, but I've used this sort of style on many brownies and we usually get somewhere eventually once they realise we are serious, but we're not going to hold grudges. Of course these things are easier with other people's kids...

 

Rosie

Those are good ideas. I'd like to reiterate the calmly. Everything you say or do must be matter-of-fact.

[mommymilkies]

I consider myself very AP, but I also do not coddle. I do, however, make sure I am more lenient about some things when it's necessary. My ds fidgets a lot. He has SPD and it's quite necessary. I think it's important to have high expectations but also know our children. I might try and read the book, though I admit her interviews were very disturbing to me in some regards. Are there any other books about high expectations from a loss volatile source?

[melissel]

I consider myself very AP, but I also do not coddle. I do, however, make sure I am more lenient about some things when it's necessary. My ds fidgets a lot. He has SPD and it's quite necessary. I think it's important to have high expectations but also know our children. I might try and read the book, though I admit her interviews were very disturbing to me in some regards. Are there any other books about high expectations from a loss volatile source?

 

I do coddle. I'm embarrassed to admit it. I'm not sure how I got here! I surely was not coddled as a child :confused: But I made my children put their own toothpaste on their own toothbrushes tonight! (I did wet them first though--does that negate my success?)

 

Anyway, I found two books on Amazon that sounded interesting:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Positive-Pushing-Raise-Successful-Happy/dp/0786888504/ref=pd_sim_b_1

 

and

 

http://www.amazon.com/Top-Class-Asian-Parents-Achievers/dp/0425205614/ref=pd_sim_b_1

 

Just some more food for thought. I'm putting them on hold at the library.

 

And I did just take a look at the cover of the Tiger Mother book. It says:

 

"This was supposed to be a story of how Chinese parents are better at raising kids than Western ones.

 

But instead, it's about a bitter clash of cultures, a fleeting taste of glory, and how I was humbled by a thirteen-year-old."

 

So she can admit that her model didn't quite work with her youngest. That and the recommendations here are enough to intrigue me. I'll give it a shot.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Thank you, Jean! That makes a lot of sense, and it would work here.

 

 

 

I have a further question here. I've heard the "give two acceptable choices" recommendation many times, and I do use it. But often, when the question is something like, "Would you rather start with handwriting or phonics?" the response is, "Nothing! I'm NOT DOING IT! Noooooooo..." Then what?

 

Repeat, "Would you rather start with handwriting or phonics? If I don't hear your choice then I will choose." If they throw a fit, I would handle it the way I would handle direct disobedience.

[JessReplanted]

I was actually thinking about this today.

 

I printed off a picture for my 3 year old to color. She took one crayon and scribbled over the entire thing, and handed it back to me in less time than it took for the thing to print. :glare: I looked at her and told her that I knew she could color better than that, and that I wasn't going to print her off special pictures if she was going to scribble them. About 5 minutes later, she apologized and asked me for another picture. She put so much effort into the second picture, and I am just so proud of her! She used different colors and really made it look beautiful (not that it's perfect - which I certainly don't expect!)

 

I told her what a great job she did and how I was so proud of her.

 

So, all that to say that: Yes, I think that we need to challenge and encourage our kids to do their best - without acting angry or abusive (or psycho) like the 'Tiger Mom'. There are ways to be firm and encouraging without breaking a child's spirit.

[OrganicAnn]

There was another book in this general category called "The Ditchdigger's Daughter" by Thorton About an African American family where the father has a dream of having all 5 of his daughter become doctors. Only 2 of them become doctor's but the other 3 have college education. Anyway, it has some of the same parental drive for education/success, but in some ways totally different. Anyway, for those interested in this type of topic, you might like this book.

[Barb_]

Thank you, Jean! That makes a lot of sense, and it would work here.

 

 

 

I have a further question here. I've heard the "give two acceptable choices" recommendation many times, and I do use it. But often, when the question is something like, "Would you rather start with handwriting or phonics?" the response is, "Nothing! I'm NOT DOING IT! Noooooooo..." Then what?

 

"You have 5 seconds to choose or I will choose for you." or "You have 5 seconds to choose or you will sit on your bed (the couch, the laundry room, whatever..someplace where there is nothing to do) until you are ready to choose." I find counting backwards quietly from 5 gives them just enough time for their higher reasoning processes to kick in and decide this particular battle isn't worth it. Also, it gives them a chance to save a little face. Counting backwards rather than forwards is important because it takes away the temptation to continue adding seconds on to the end. Follow through every time and they will eventually get that cooperation is easier than complaining.

 

I also like to draw the student's attention to their enjoyment of the work once we get going. Oftentimes, the one who is dragging her feet really enjoys the challenge once the resistance wears off and flow kicks in. I say something like, "hey, I'm really enjoying this lesson today." When the child agrees, I say, "Let's try to remember this feeling the next time we don't feel like doing our Phonics because work is actually a lot of fun once you get good at it."

 

Barb

[Donna]

I agree with many of the posters here. It is possible to have high expectations for your child but not be "tigerish." I do have high expectations for my kids. I expect them to do things to the best of their ability.

 

I don't believe in name-calling, belittling them, or using physical force.

 

I have always been careful about giving my kids choices but phrasing the choices so that whatever they chose will be a positive choice to me. I did attachment parenting as well so am very intuned to the kids and can mostly figure out how they will react in a given situation (though that is more difficult when they hit those pre-teen/teen years).

 

I don't overschedule them. I give them choices on the activities they'd like to do but I expect them to give their best in those that I am paying for them to do. Their best may not be "the best" and that is okay with me as well. When they have performed or competed I always hug them afterward and tell them I love them.

 

We keep the lines of communication open with all the kids, talk about expectations and why we have them, and talk about the choices they have to make for themselves now that they are getting older. My boys still come and snuggle me for a bit before bed. We talk about their day and though they might not tell me everything, they are pretty open with me about most things. My boys also have their grandparents who they are very close to. My father spends almost every day after school helping the boys workout and they help him with chores around his house.

[cdrumm4448]

All of our friends are unschoolers :lol: They already think I'm over the top for using curriculum, whereas I feel like we're a year behind! But I hear what you're saying, and I'm reading every word you're all posting.

 

So I have a very practical sort of question then. Let's say, for example, my DD8 is struggling with a math concept. On a bad day, this can send her weeping to her room, proclaiming that she hates math and hates school and is never coming back out. (These days are rare, but they do happen.) How does a "tiger mom" handle that? Does she drag the kicking, screaming child back to the table to finish the work? Does she let her sulk awhile, go in and talk to her about the bigger picture, and ease her back out to the table? How do you handle drama?

 

And honestly, my bigger concern is my DD5, who is very...temperamental. She and I don't mesh well (similar personalities, ahem). DD8 is eager to please. DD5 is eager to thwart. I truly don't know how I will handle her.

 

This actually happened to us yesterday. DS is struggling with long division. I have showed him 1,000 times how to do it, but he still doesn't get it. There was crying, fits, walking away, it went on for an hour. We struggled through one page of problems then moved on. We went back to it later, watched the Mathtacular 3 DVD, and he's getting there. We will go over another page tomorrow (Saturday). We will drill until he gets it.

 

Our problem stems from math historically being easy for him. This is the first time he's struggled and had to work. This is a good lesson for him. Most worthy things in life require hard work.

[cdrumm4448]

He was not allowed to leave the table to give up. We sat until he collected himeself and could continue. It's my job to help him see he is capable, he can learn it, hard things must be done. That is success.