A ? for Muslims - hopefully not offensive...

[freerange]

You've never seen yourself in a mirror and shouted "my butt isn't that big!"

e

Rosie, I love your posts. I nearly choked on my cereals!:lol:

[Nan in Mass]

Yes, but this is GOD you are talking about. Surely God can do some impossible sounding things? Surely we, as limited human beings, are also limited in our ability to understand how those things work? What I believe is that since that is the case, I, personally, don't see why it can't somehow be true that the same God can be worshipped by many religions and can care about everyone and everything. I think that believing otherwise sets limits on God. Do I understand the nitty gritty of how that could be true? No. Not knowing exactly how it all works doesn't bother me. God is GOD. And I am very, very small compared to the universe.

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Thank you. : )

[Ibbygirl]

I don't know if there is much I can add here, but I will most definitely say that Muslims, Christians, Jews, dare I say even Hindus and other polytheists, worship the same God. There is one God, the Creator, who instilled in us a longing to worship a force greater than ourselves, which is Him. How we go about that, our source of inspiration and guidelines for behavior, our believed path to salvation, even our impression of who our Creator is and His attributes may differ, but that does not change who God is.

 

We may follow different scriptures, have disagreements about who Jesus (peace be upon him) was, and each of us may believe that our path is the right one and that followers of other religions have been led astray and are not worshiping God in the way He intended. None of this, however, has any effect on the nature of God Himself (and how presumptuous of us as mere humans to imagine that it would!)

 

So, yes, Muslims worship the same God as Christians. We worship in different ways, our concept of God may differ in some ways, but The One God is just that, to everyone.

 

Thank you for your thought provoking comments. :) One thing that came to my mind though is where does that leave the atheist then? What about the person who does not worship God or even believe in or have any interest in a deity?

 

If all roads lead to Heaven and to the presence of the Creator, what about the person who doesn't want that?

 

Perhaps this question doesn't belong in this thread, or maybe doesn't have an answer at all. I wrestled with whether or not I should even ask it because I'm so clumsy with words and am always worried about being misunderstood and giving offense, but so many of you have expressed such interesting ideas and beliefs I felt that maybe it was safe to venture to ask it. :blushing:

[skirch]

Sometimes I think there needs to be an "Ask a Muslim Day". Though I'm sure the thought makes some Muslim posters here cringe! :lol: I've found in other Muslim related posts here that some people want to ask all sorts of stuff, but for various reasons don't.

 

 

We actually did this on another forum I visit and it was fascinating. Everyone was very respectful and I learned so much!

[iwka]

"Allah, of course, is the same God Jews and Christians"

 

God of Islam is not the same God of the Holy Scriptures.

[Parrothead]

Yes, but this is GOD you are talking about. Surely God can do some impossible sounding things? Surely we, as limited human beings, are also limited in our ability to understand how those things work? What I believe is that since that is the case, I, personally, don't see why it can't somehow be true that the same God can be worshipped by many religions and can care about everyone and everything. I think that believing otherwise sets limits on God. Do I understand the nitty gritty of how that could be true? No. Not knowing exactly how it all works doesn't bother me. God is GOD. And I am very, very small compared to the universe.

-Nan

:iagree:Nicely said, Nan.

[Veritaserum]

Yes, but this is GOD you are talking about. Surely God can do some impossible sounding things? Surely we, as limited human beings, are also limited in our ability to understand how those things work? What I believe is that since that is the case, I, personally, don't see why it can't somehow be true that the same God can be worshipped by many religions and can care about everyone and everything. I think that believing otherwise sets limits on God. Do I understand the nitty gritty of how that could be true? No. Not knowing exactly how it all works doesn't bother me. God is GOD. And I am very, very small compared to the universe.

-Nan

 

:iagree:

[Jenny in Florida]

Yes, but this is GOD you are talking about. Surely God can do some impossible sounding things? Surely we, as limited human beings, are also limited in our ability to understand how those things work? What I believe is that since that is the case, I, personally, don't see why it can't somehow be true that the same God can be worshipped by many religions and can care about everyone and everything. I think that believing otherwise sets limits on God. Do I understand the nitty gritty of how that could be true? No. Not knowing exactly how it all works doesn't bother me. God is GOD. And I am very, very small compared to the universe.

-Nan

 

This reminds me of the story of "Tashlan" in Narnia. Now, I know these books are Christian allegories, but I was a non-church-going kid who read them on my own. And the lesson of that story--that Aslan would accept anything good done in the name of a god other than him but would reject bad things done in his own name--immediately became part of my person belief system.

 

And I think it's Huston Smith who says that all major world religions are like arrows being shot at the same sun from places all over the globe. In other words, we're all aiming at the same thing, even though we take different paths to get there.

 

It's a lovely idea, I think.

[Scuff]

Ok, I've only read the first two pages. I believe she was asking Muslims to tell what they believed about the whole thing, not what Christians thought about it. SO I'm not going to get into that.

 

I have a question for the muslims, tooI f any are still reading this and it's still remotely on topic. This probably has a lot of potential to upset, so please take it just as a genuine curiousity. As a younger Christian, reading the Old Testement, it caused me to love the jews. How could I not? They are the chosen people of the God I love. If muslimsworship the same God also, why is there such hatred for the Jews?

 

ETA- I realize this is a broad question that is probably influenced by politics more than religion. And is also a broad generalization. Living close to a large muslim and large jewish population, I know not all muslims hate the jews and that some highly respect them. And I do wonder about those Christians who don't love them, also. They baffle me most of all, since we supposedly agree on so much else. But I still wonder how there can be so much hatred spewed against a people by another people who claims to worships their God.

 

And sorry for the typos, dealing with a few handicaps right now.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Scuff

[Osmosis Mom]

There is no *hatred* for Jews. Gosh.

 

But, yes, Muslims don't like zionists (re. Palestine and people without a land, suppression etc. etc.). Way too political for the purpose of this board, but a hot personal topic this year especially as my kids have befriended a ton of Palestinian youth who identify with their parents' lost home country.

 

But hate on a personal level, nope. Jews have often been amongst our friends (and still are). Muslims and Jews often support each other on public issues actually, so no problem there.

[Scuff]

Well, hence my edit. I/m not saying *you* hate them. But the middle east is a pretty big hotbed and it seems many wouldn't mind wiping Israel off the map. Yeah, probably too political. sorry.

 

 

ETA- I see we were typing at the same time. Probably should have thought of my edit before hitting submit.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Scuff

[Spy Car]

Ok, I've only read the first two pages. I believe she was asking Muslims to tell what they believed about the whole thing, not what Christians thought about it. SO I'm not going to get into that.

 

I have a question for the muslims, tooI f any are still reading this and it's still remotely on topic. This probably has a lot of potential to upset, so please take it just as a genuine curiousity. As a younger Christian, reading the Old Testement, it caused me to love the jews. How could I not? They are the chosen people of the God I love. If muslimsworship the same God also, why is there such hatred for the Jews?

 

I'm not a Muslim, but....

 

In the first place the notion that there is some intractable hated between Muslims and Jews is a false one. The Jews had a Golden Age while living in the Islamic Empire at its height. Jews suffered far worse persecutions in Medieval Europe than they did in the Muslim and Arab worlds, not to mention the experience in Europe in more recent times.

 

Where things "perfect" for Jews living in Muslim lands? No. We there ever incidents of violence? Yes. Were Jews in some ways "second class" and subject to things like additional taxation? Yes.

 

But the situation did not compare to the horrors the Jews faced in Europe. Not even close.

 

The conflict over Palestine/Israel has heightened tensions (obviously) but Jews and Muslims actually have a good deal in common.

 

There is one underlying "problem" from a historical-theological legacy. When Muhammad fled to Madinah (fleeing the polytheists in Makkah who were going to do him in) with the first Muslims, Madinah Had a large population of Jewish tribes. When war came between the Muslims and the Tribes of Makkah, including Muhammad's own (dominant) Quraysh tribe, some of the Jewish tribes made a deal with the forces of Makkah (the Muslims were the "underdogs"). It was a bad move on a strategic level, as the Muslims prevailed.

 

Some of the Qur'anic revelations followed that railed against the perceived treason of the Jewish tribes in that context and Jewish tribes were banished from that portion of Arabia.

 

When things "go bad" in Jewish-Muslim relations those verses can be seized upon by the hateful to stoke violence, just as violent minded people can pick put scripture to meet their hateful purposes. We deal with human nature here.

 

So it is not to say that there are "no issues" but the notion that Jews and Muslims are locked in an unending death-grip of hate is a false one. The record of Jewish-Muslim relations I'd actually a lot better than that of Jewish-Christian relations historically speaking.

 

Bill

Edited February 23, 2011 by Spy Car

[RobinF]

As a Muslim....

He is not a liar, but instead is highly revered as all the prophets are. It pains me horribly to even see the name of Jesus, may peace be upon him, and the name liar put into the same sentence. To us, there is no proof of, nor did Jesus ever state that he was the son of God and therefore never lied about anything. We feel that this concept arose after his existence here on Earth. (We also don't believe that he died on the cross, but instead rose to heaven, and will come again).

 

 

 

 

Totally non snarky question. If you believe Jesus to be a good prophet but that the words Christians believe he spoke were only attributed to him, where does the idea that he was a good prophet come from? If the words attributed from here weren't true then what about Jesus makes him good? Does that make sense?

 

Oh and excuse me if this has already been answered, I haven't finished reading the thread but wanted to ask this before I forgot.

[RobinF]

There is no *hatred* for Jews. Gosh.

 

But, yes, Muslims don't like zionists (re. Palestine and people without a land, suppression etc. etc.). Way too political for the purpose of this board, but a hot personal topic this year especially as my kids have befriended a ton of Palestinian youth who identify with their parents' lost home country.

 

But hate on a personal level, nope. Jews have often been amongst our friends (and still are). Muslims and Jews often support each other on public issues actually, so no problem there.

 

I am not Jewish or Muslim but I will say that I agree with this statement. When we visited Israel there seemed to be a small portion of the population on either side (Jewish or Muslim) that were in conflict with each other (radicals). If you could remove that part of the population it seems that the rest could live in peace.

 

I would venture to say that Palestinians feel the same way about Zionists as Native Americans feel about the "white" men that took their land.

 

There are three groups (Muslim, Jews, Christians) who share a common heritage and history and they are sharing it on a very small portion of land. Because each group has different priorities disagreements are to be expected and when the radicals move in (from any side) then that causes problems.

[Gooblink]

I'm not a Muslim, but....

 

In the first place the notion that there is some intractable hated between Muslims and Jews is a false one. When things "go bad" in Jewish-Muslim relations those verses can be seized upon by the hateful to stoke violence, just as violent minded people can pick put scripture to meet their hateful purposes. We deal with human nature here.

 

So it is not to say that there are "no issues" but the notion that Jews and Muslims are locked in an unending death-grip of hate is a false one. The record of Jewish-Muslim relations I'd actually a lot better than that of Jewish-Christian relations historically speaking.

 

Bill

 

Purely anecdotal, here...

 

I dated a Muslim for 3 years (not practicing, though...more of a cultural Muslim) and the tension between him and my Jewish freinds was palpable...from both sides.

 

His family fled their home in Jerusalem during the 7-day war and settled in Jordan. He was, understandably, bitter.

 

Now, did he behave civilly? Of course. Was he able to overcome his personal prejuidices to engage professionally and, to some extent, personally? Yes. But, there was definitely an ingrained distrust of Jews. As I said...same went for my Jewish friends.

 

It was very eye opening for me, as a disinterested, apolitical and irreligious (this was a while ago) 3rd party. :)

[unsinkable]

I am not Jewish or Muslim but I will say that I agree with this statement. When we visited Israel there seemed to be a small portion of the population on either side (Jewish or Muslim) that were in conflict with each other (radicals). If you could remove that part of the population it seems that the rest could live in peace.

 

I would venture to say that Palestinians feel the same way about Zionists as Native Americans feel about the "white" men that took their land.

 

There are three groups (Muslim, Jews, Christians) who share a common heritage and history and they are sharing it on a very small portion of land. Because each group has different priorities disagreements are to be expected and when the radicals move in (from any side) then that causes problems.

 

I certainly won't sully this lovely thread with my opinion, but who gets to decide who the radicals are? :lol:

[Ester Maria]

There are three groups (Muslim, Jews, Christians) who share a common heritage and history

From a Christian and/or a Muslim perspective, maybe.

 

From a Jewish perspective, though, y'all are completely theologically irrelevant (while the opposite isn't true, as Judaism for Christians and Muslims is a constitutive element of their religions, which are based on some sort of attitude towards it and relationship with it), there is no common heritage to speak of, and the shared history has overall, in a broad context, been such that all Jews would have historically liked in many instances is pretty much to have been left alone. As politically incorrect as all of that might sound. ;)

Edited February 23, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Spy Car]

Purely anecdotal, here...

 

I dated a Muslim for 3 years (not practicing, though...more of a cultural Muslim) and the tension between him and my Jewish freinds was palpable...from both sides.

 

His family fled their home in Jerusalem during the 7-day war and settled in Jordan. He was, understandably, bitter.

 

Now, did he behave civilly? Of course. Was he able to overcome his personal prejuidices to engage professionally and, to some extent, personally? Yes. But, there was definitely an ingrained distrust of Jews. As I said...same went for my Jewish friends.

 

It was very eye opening for me, as a disinterested, apolitical and irreligious (this was a while ago) 3rd party. :)

 

Sure. But when in human history have people that feel dispossessed not had somewhat bitter feeling towards those that dispossessed them, or appear to support those who dispossessed them? That's pretty much human nature.

 

Loving ones enemy (including those you feel have dispossessed you is not an easy commandment for anyone, ever. KWIM.

 

That does not mean Jews and Muslims have always have their hands at each other's throats or are destined to have such a future. These is a problem in Palestine/Israel that is unresolved and that is a source of great tension. It is not the first nor will it be the last time in human history two people have come to enmity.

 

I imagine a good many survivors of Auschwitz had bitter feelings towards Poles and Germans. Normal stuff.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

From a Christian and/or a Muslim perspective, maybe.

 

From a Jewish perspective, though, y'all are completely theologically irrelevant (while the opposite isn't true, as Judaism for Christians and Muslims is a constitutive element of their religions, which are based on some sort of attitude towards it and relationship with it), there is no common heritage to speak of, and the shared history has overall, in a broad context, been such that all Jews would have historically liked in many instances is pretty much to have been left alone. As politically incorrect as all of that might sound. ;)

 

Excuse me for disagreeing. Judaism has hardly been a static faith and much of its evolution, scholarship, and refinement of thought in the period of Rabbinic Judaism was spurred by perceived challenges of both Christianity and Islam. Often that resulted in seeking to show how Judaism was "different" but I think it is undeniable that modern Judaism is in part shaped by its interaction with Christianity and Islam and that some of those changes were in arguably "positive" directions.

 

Bill

[RobinF]

From a Christian and/or a Muslim perspective, maybe.

 

From a Jewish perspective, though, y'all are completely theologically irrelevant (while the opposite isn't true, as Judaism for Christians and Muslims is a constitutive element of their religions, which are based on some sort of attitude towards it and relationship with it), there is no common heritage to speak of, and the shared history has overall, in a broad context, been such that all Jews would have historically liked in many instances is pretty much to have been left alone. As politically incorrect as all of that might sound. ;)

 

While we might be theologically irrelevant in your perspective, it would be hard to deny that all three faith traditions are based on the personhood of Abraham who inhabited a specific portion of land now known as Israel and even though each faith comes to a different conclusion of how an Abrahamic covenant is relevant to their current belief there is still that common Abrahamic heritage. I wasn't discussing this from a theological perspective but rather from a anthropological perspective.

[unsinkable]

Sure. But when in human history have people that feel dispossessed not had somewhat bitter feeling towards those that dispossessed them, or appear to support those who dispossessed them? That's pretty much human nature.

 

Loving ones enemy (including those you feel have dispossessed you is not an easy commandment for anyone, ever. KWIM.

 

That does not mean Jews and Muslims have always have their hands at each other's throats or are destined to have such a future. These is a problem in Palestine/Israel that is unresolved and that is a source of great tension. It is not the first nor will it be the last time in human history two people have come to enmity.

 

I imagine a good many survivors of Auschwitz had bitter feelings towards Poles and Germans. Normal stuff.

 

Bill

 

Bill,

 

I know you know that Poles died in concentration camps, too.

[Spy Car]

Bill,

 

I know you know that Poles died in concentration camps, too.

 

I am not trying to pick on Poles. Only to make a point that when groups come into conflict and there is violence between them, bitter feeling often linger.

 

Bill

[Ester Maria]

Excuse me for disagreeing. Judaism has hardly been a static faith and much of its evolution, scholarship, and refinement of thought in the period of Rabbinic Judaism was spurred by perceived challenges of both Christianity and Islam. Often that resulted in seeking to show how Judaism was "different" but I think it is undeniable that modern Judaism is in part shaped by its interaction with Christianity and Islam and that some of those changes were in arguably "positive" directions.

I'm not denying the existence of a dialogue in both cases, or even the existence of significant scholarship which was influenced by all sorts of non-Jewish sources from the very early rabbinical literature.

 

However, a dialogue is one thing, but a direct textual dependence of primary sources is a completely different thing. Judaism is a crucial element in genesis both of Christianity and, largely by extention, of Islam - the two are in start modelled as some sort of reaction to a Jewish text and culture. Christianity, in particular, is little more than a reactionary ideology (as un-PC as it might sound, again). In Judaism there is no dependence / theological relevance of those proportions - though I don't doubt that Judaism nowadays would look much differently if the "matrix" weren't refined and defined in relation to other faiths and thoughts originating outside of it.

[Ester Maria]

While we might be theologically irrelevant in your perspective, it would be hard to deny that all three faith traditions are based on the personhood of Abraham who inhabited a specific portion of land now known as Israel and even though each faith comes to a different conclusion of how an Abrahamic covenant is relevant to their current belief there is still that common Abrahamic heritage. I wasn't discussing this from a theological perspective but rather from a anthropological perspective.

I'm not negating that. :)

I'm just reminding everybody about the "hierarchy" of texts in question when we're talking about dogma and formation of it. It's not that the three are independently based on X, it's that A is based on X, and B and C are actually based on A which is based on X, because they form themselves originally in relation to A (or even B, in the case of C - but NOT in case of a direct tradition stemming from X independently of A, found chronologically before, etc.), rather than in direct independent relation to X. The way you formulate it because of that sounded a bit "misleading" to me, so I wanted to remind on it - of course, both politics and anthropology are a different boat, I'm talking text and dogma.

[mommymilkies]

I'm not denying the existence of a dialogue in both cases, or even the existence of significant scholarship which was influenced by all sorts of non-Jewish sources from the very early rabbinical literature.

 

However, a dialogue is one thing, but a direct textual dependence of primary sources is a completely different thing. Judaism is a crucial element in genesis both of Christianity and, largely by extention, of Islam - the two are in start modelled as some sort of reaction to a Jewish text and culture. Christianity, in particular, is little more than a reactionary ideology (as un-PC as it might sound, again). In Judaism there is no dependence / theological relevance of those proportions - though I don't doubt that Judaism nowadays would look much differently if the "matrix" weren't refined and defined in relation to other faiths and thoughts originating outside of it.

 

:iagree: I was raised Jewish, though more Reform than Orthodox. That said, I've never had any tension with Muslims, personally.

[Spy Car]

I'm not denying the existence of a dialogue in both cases, or even the existence of significant scholarship which was influenced by all sorts of non-Jewish sources from the very early rabbinical literature.

 

However, a dialogue is one thing, but a direct textual dependence of primary sources is a completely different thing. Judaism is a crucial element in genesis both of Christianity and, largely by extention, of Islam - the two are in start modelled as some sort of reaction to a Jewish text and culture. Christianity, in particular, is little more than a reactionary ideology (as un-PC as it might sound, again). In Judaism there is no dependence / theological relevance of those proportions - though I don't doubt that Judaism nowadays would look much differently if the "matrix" weren't refined and defined in relation to other faiths and thoughts originating outside of it.

 

We agree that modern Judaism would likely look much different without having interacted with Christianity and Islam.

 

It would be important to note in this discussion that Judaism itself does not rely solely on ancient texts, but is informed by commentaries that I think (and I think you would acknowledge) were influenced by (and were sometimes "reactions" to) Christian and Muslim thought.

 

I don't think it is accurate to suggest Judaism doesn't have what you are calling "reactionary" elements just because it doesn't treat the Christian Bible as "scripture" (which it certainly does not).

 

Bill

[Ester Maria]

It would be important to note in this discussion that Judaism itself does not rely solely on ancient texts, but is informed by commentaries that I think (and I think you would acknowledge) were influenced (and were sometimes "reactions" to Christian and Muslim thought.

 

I don't think it is accurate to suggest Judaism doesn't have what you are calling "reactionary" elements just because it doesn't treat the Christian Bible as "scripture" (which it certainly does not).

We agree on both of that. Even more so, the element of philosophy (hey, that's a red alert one: Hellenism! :D) in Judaism in the first place is very, very problematic. Much of Judaism has been formed in a complex dialogue with its non-Jewish surroundings. Frankly, I didn't intend to go that far with my "bombastic" post :), just to note the "hierarchy" of primary sources of each religion, rather than enter in the intricacies of the scholarships of each.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Spy Car]

I'm not negating that. :)

I'm just reminding everybody about the "hierarchy" of texts in question when we're talking about dogma and formation of it. It's not that the three are independently based on X, it's that A is based on X, and B and C are actually based on A which is based on X, because they form themselves originally in relation to A (or even B, in the case of C - but NOT in case of a direct tradition stemming from X independently of A, found chronologically before, etc.), rather than in direct independent relation to X. The way you formulate it because of that sounded a bit "misleading" to me, so I wanted to remind on it - of course, both politics and anthropology are a different boat, I'm talking text and dogma.

 

While I would share your perspective myself, to understand the Muslim POV one would need to realize they see a link to a primordial religion that was practiced by Abraham. That, from their perspective, Judaism was an outgrowth of that original "Islam" not vice-versa.

 

To Muslims the revelation of the Qur'an was a "restoration" of the original, pure, and unadulterated word of God and not something derived from Torah, Tanakh, Or Christian scriptures.

 

I understand how the Muslim position may not be accepted by people of other faiths, or even non-religious folks such as myself. But that is what Muslim's believe.

 

Bill

[RobinF]

I certainly won't sully this lovely thread with my opinion, but who gets to decide who the radicals are? :lol:

 

Seriously...wouldn't touch that with a very long pole and a :auto:.

[Spy Car]

We agree on both of that. Even more so, the element of philosophy (hey, that's a red alert one: Hellenism! :D) in Judaism in the first place is very, very problematic. Much of Judaism has been formed in a complex dialogue with its non-Jewish surroundings. Frankly, I didn't intend to go that far with my "bombastic" post :), just to note the "hierarchy" of primary sources of each religion, rather than enter in the intricacies of the scholarships of each.

 

Hellenism!!!

 

What a can of worms. We might have to discuss the "Other One" (E.B.A) ;) :D

 

Might be "off topic."

 

Bill

[Ester Maria]

While I would share your perspective myself, to understand the Muslim POV one would need to realize they see a link to a primordial religion that was practiced by Abraham. That, from their perspective, Judaism was an outgrowth of that original "Islam" not vice-versa.

True.

 

By the way, I have a question about that.

As you know Judaism doesn't see Abraham as its formative element, i.e. a crucial one, but the giving of Torah on Sinai, the revelation to the whole nation, the unbroken chain of tradition etc. Technically speaking, that's the point of formation of the Jewish nation and religion.

 

What's Islam's stance on that - is that story a part of the Muslim theological "canon" as well, as one of the previous revelations? (I ask because Islam is based on a revelation to an individual, rather than a nation, so I was curious whether Sinai was accepted to have happened, somehow, in some form or no - and if yes, how is it interpreted?)

 

ETA: Oh yes, Hellenism is such a can of worms... But yes, it would definitely be off-topic here, I agree. (Enterprise Bargaining Agreement? :D No, seriously, what is it?)

Edited February 23, 2011 by Ester Maria

[AHASRADA]

Totally non snarky question. If you believe Jesus to be a good prophet but that the words Christians believe he spoke were only attributed to him, where does the idea that he was a good prophet come from? If the words attributed from here weren't true then what about Jesus makes him good? Does that make sense?

 

An honest question which I will do my best to answer. As Ester Maria mentioned, there is a hierarchy of scripture. The Old Testament or Jewish scriptures (which Muslims consider the Torah and Psalms), followed by the New Testament (which Muslims call the Gospel), and finally the Qur'an. Muslims believe that all of these scriptures, in their original forms, came from God. However, over time, the original texts have been lost, changed, added to, translated and retranslated, so that the Bible as we currently know it does not contain exclusively the exact words of God as they were originally revealed.

 

Therefore, as Muslims, we believe in those portions of earlier scriptures which support and are not in conflict with the message of the Qur'an. As the final message from God to mankind, sent to clarify any misconceptions or adaptations in the earlier scripture, if something in the earlier scriptures goes against God's word in the Qur'an, we presume it to be an addition, deletion or change to the Bible that happened over the years, whether by accident or intentionally to serve a worldly purpose.

 

In this context, we base our view and beliefs about Jesus (peace be upon him) on the extensive references to him in the Qur'an. Such as him being the Messiah whose coming the Jews were awaiting, that he was the result of a miraculous virgin birth, that he will return to earth during the Last Days, and that he was spared the indignity of being killed on the cross, but that it was only made to appear that way, while he was raised directly to heaven. We believe God is above the carnal relationships of having a wife or son, and that He shares His power with no one. We have no need for a blood sacrifice for our sins, because we believe both Adam and Eve asked for forgiveness for their deeds and were forgiven, and that no human being is punished for the sins of his ancestors, but that each of us is responsible for our own actions. For Muslims, salvation is based on faith, works, and the mercy of God.

 

I might add that the Christian notions of God having a son, a triune god, blood sacrifice, as well as many Christian holidays were likely unknown concepts to the disciples, and were added later through cultural influences, particularly from the Romans. Perhaps Bill could expand on that topic.

 

I hope I have answered the question thoroughly, without ruffling too many feathers. I am simply presenting my beliefs, with no presumption that others will agree :)

[Spy Car]

True.

 

By the way, I have a question about that.

As yu know Judaism doesn't see Abraham as its formative element, i.e. a crucial one, but the giving of Torah on Sinai, the revelation to the whole nation, the unbroken chain of tradition etc. Technically speaking, that's the point of formation of the Jewish nation and religion.

 

What's Islam's stance on that - is that story a part of the Muslim theological "canon" as well, as one of the previous revelations? (I ask because Islam is based on a revelation to an individual, rather than a nation, so I was curious whether Sinai was accepted to have happened, somehow, in some form or no - and if yes, how is it interpreted?)

 

Moses (Musa) is a hugely important prophet in Islam. If memory serves he is given more attention in the Qur'an than any other prophet (by a good deal) and his story is recounted in detail. It has been too long since I have read these passages to comment on any variations between the Jewish and Muslim versions of the Moses story and I don't wish to mis-speak. But Moses receiving the revelation of God at Sinai is a central (and very important) story in the Qur'an.

 

Bill

Edited February 23, 2011 by Spy Car
Typo

[RobinF]

An honest question which I will do my best to answer. As Ester Maria mentioned, there is a hierarchy of scripture. The Old Testament or Jewish scriptures (which Muslims consider the Torah and Psalms), followed by the New Testament (which Muslims call the Gospel), and finally the Qur'an. Muslims believe that all of these scriptures, in their original forms, came from God. However, over time, the original texts have been lost, changed, added to, translated and retranslated, so that the Bible as we currently know it does not contain exclusively the exact words of God as they were originally revealed.

 

Therefore, as Muslims, we believe in those portions of earlier scriptures which support and are not in conflict with the message of the Qur'an. As the final message from God to mankind, sent to clarify any misconceptions or adaptations in the earlier scripture, if something in the earlier scriptures goes against God's word in the Qur'an, we presume it to be an addition, deletion or change to the Bible that happened over the years, whether by accident or intentionally to serve a worldly purpose.

 

In this context, we base our view and beliefs about Jesus (peace be upon him) on the extensive references to him in the Qur'an. Such as him being the Messiah whose coming the Jews were awaiting, that he was the result of a miraculous virgin birth, that he will return to earth during the Last Days, and that he was spared the indignity of being killed on the cross, but that it was only made to appear that way, while he was raised directly to heaven. We believe God is above the carnal relationships of having a wife or son, and that He shares His power with no one. We have no need for a blood sacrifice for our sins, because we believe both Adam and Eve asked for forgiveness for their deeds and were forgiven, and that no human being is punished for the sins of his ancestors, but that each of us is responsible for our own actions. For Muslims, salvation is based on faith, works, and the mercy of God.

 

I might add that the Christian notions of God having a son, a triune god, blood sacrifice, as well as many Christian holidays were likely unknown concepts to the disciples, and were added later through cultural influences, particularly from the Romans. Perhaps Bill could expand on that topic.

 

I hope I have answered the question thoroughly, without ruffling too many feathers. I am simply presenting my beliefs, with no presumption that others will agree :)

 

That answers my question, thank you.

[Spy Car]

I might add that the Christian notions of God having a son, a triune god, blood sacrifice, as well as many Christian holidays were likely unknown concepts to the disciples, and were added later through cultural influences, particularly from the Romans. Perhaps Bill could expand on that topic.

 

 

I think I will respectfully decline that invitation :D

 

Bill

[Ester Maria]

Regarding late antiquity, Roman concepts in Christianity, or generally the semantic and linguistic shift that occurred in the whole broad culture... PM me who is interested, we could have some interesting conversations. :D But not on boards - PM only.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Ester Maria

[AHASRADA]

True.

 

By the way, I have a question about that.

As you know Judaism doesn't see Abraham as its formative element, i.e. a crucial one, but the giving of Torah on Sinai, the revelation to the whole nation, the unbroken chain of tradition etc. Technically speaking, that's the point of formation of the Jewish nation and religion.

 

What's Islam's stance on that - is that story a part of the Muslim theological "canon" as well, as one of the previous revelations? (I ask because Islam is based on a revelation to an individual, rather than a nation, so I was curious whether Sinai was accepted to have happened, somehow, in some form or no - and if yes, how is it interpreted?)

 

 

Yes, the presentation of the tablets to Moses on the Mount is recounted in the Qur'an (7:142-157), as is the forming of the golden calf by his people, and their resulting repentance. Muslims believe that Moses' scriptures were given to the Jewish people as a nation, while the Qur'an was revealed for all of mankind (including the Jews). Muslims also celebrate "Ashura", which commemorates the Israelites' delivery from Egypt so yes, we do claim much of your religious history as our own ;).

[Ester Maria]

Yes, the presentation of the tablets to Moses on the Mount is recounted in the Qur'an (7:142-157), as is the forming of the golden calf by his people, and their resulting repentance. Muslims believe that Moses' scriptures were given to the Jewish people as a nation, while the Qur'an was revealed for all of mankind (including the Jews). Muslims also celebrate "Ashura", which commemorates the Israelites' delivery from Egypt so yes, we do claim much of your religious history as our own ;).

Thank you :), but I'm afraid I have to insist on a bit more precision: is the Sinai revelation presented as the revelation to the whole nation (as in, everybody heard and experienced God and the first two commandments, while Moses chatted with God about the rest - but importantly, all have experienced it and passed it onto their children, etc.) or as God's private talk with Moses? I'm asking because this issue is of tremendous importance in Judaism, and the whole chain of tradition is really stressed, so I'm asking. :)

[AHASRADA]

Thank you :), but I'm afraid I have to insist on a bit more precision: is the Sinai revelation presented as the revelation to the whole nation (as in, everybody heard and experienced God and the first two commandments, while Moses chatted with God about the rest - but importantly, all have experienced it and passed it onto their children, etc.) or as God's private talk with Moses? I'm asking because this issue is of tremendous importance in Judaism, and the whole chain of tradition is really stressed, so I'm asking. :)

 

Speaking from my basic knowledge on the subject (perhaps there are other Muslims on the board who can offer more precise details), the commandments were revealed to Moses, in the presence of God, on the mount. His nation was left in the spiritual care of his brother, Aaron during his 40 day absence. He then descended the mount and presented the tablets to his people, at which time he discovered they had fashioned a golden calf to worship. So, no, I don't believe there is a view in Islam that the commandments were revealed directly from God to the Israelite nation, but to the prophet Moses, who was charged with delivering the message to his people.

[Osmosis Mom]

:lol:

From a Christian and/or a Muslim perspective, maybe.

 

From a Jewish perspective, though, y'all are completely theologically irrelevant (while the opposite isn't true, as Judaism for Christians and Muslims is a constitutive element of their religions, which are based on some sort of attitude towards it and relationship with it), there is no common heritage to speak of, and the shared history has overall, in a broad context, been such that all Jews would have historically liked in many instances is pretty much to have been left alone. As politically incorrect as all of that might sound. ;)

 

Haha, I believe this is the truth!!

[Ester Maria]

:lol:

 

Haha, I believe this is the truth!!

I'm glad to see it comes across as I intended it (sort of humorous, yet describing what would theologically be a mainstream Jewish perspective), I started wondering later whether I had worded it in a too "bombastic" fashion or whether it might result offensive - I hope not. :)

 

Ahasrada, thank you for taking the time to elaborate on the answer. :)

[Rosie_0801]

Thank you for your thought provoking comments. :) One thing that came to my mind though is where does that leave the atheist then? What about the person who does not worship God or even believe in or have any interest in a deity?

 

If all roads lead to Heaven and to the presence of the Creator, what about the person who doesn't want that?

 

My guess is that if you exchange the word 'worship' for something else, you might come up with something more universal. 'Acknowledge.' maybe? I can't imagine how anyone wouldn't agree that the forces of nature are tough enough to kick our butts.

 

Rosie

[KnitWit]

Thank you for continuing this conversation. I am learning so much!

[MtnTeaching]

Wow! This is how we learn and broaden our minds! I love discussions that can somehow struggle to rise above the snarkeyness and truly teach us about what others believe.

Personally, I can (and often do) find myself traveling through life with blinders on, passively accepting misconceptions from TV., radio, Internet, and newspapers (from both sides of the political spectrum). I can only speak for myself, but I greatly admire the people here (from several different religions and non-religious) who were willing to rise above the mud-slinging to engage in calm, intellectual discussions regarding such an emotionally-filled subject for the purpose of answering a question for a child. I learned a lot that I did not know.

Loved this thread, will be thinking about it the rest of the day, and will probably feel motivated to do more research on my own.

Thank you all!

(A Christian)

[jazzyfizzle]

For the most part, Christians--evangelical Christians, at least-- will answer with an unequivocal "no". And if you google your question, "is allah the same as the christian god", you'll also find a lot of differing opinions in cyberspace. So my best answer is that it depends on who you ask.

 

This helps decide the answers to a few questions I have had going around in my mind.

[Storm Bay]

I might add that the Christian notions of God having a son, a triune god, blood sacrifice, as well as many Christian holidays were likely unknown concepts to the disciples, and were added later through cultural influences, particularly from the Romans. Perhaps Bill could expand on that topic.

 

 

I'm not Bill, nor am I Muslim, but I do know something about this. Yes, the whole triune God concept is far older than the time of Jesus, and is the root for many polygamous religions. It began to infiltrate Chrisianity by the end of the first century, although it was not univerally embraced by Christians and never has been. Frequently, Christians who believe in only one God have been called Deists. There are Deists, of course, but not everyone who has been labelled a Deist is one. There was a lot of rioting and fighting between those Christians who believed in one God and those who had come to believe in a three-in-one God. A good read on the history of ths is the book I mentioned earlier, When Jesus Became God. (fwiw, the book doesn't say he was God) http://www.amazon.com/When-Jesus-Became-God-Christianity/dp/0156013150/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298499693&sr=8-1

 

Gnostic teachings also infiltrated the Christian church, and, later, things from European paganism came in. There have always been some who haver resisted these things, but they have largely been suppressed and/or oppressed.

There is no *hatred* for Jews. Gosh.

ut hate on a personal level, nope. Jews have often been amongst our friends (and still are). Muslims and Jews often support each other on public issues actually, so no problem there.

 

Bill,

 

I know you know that Poles died in concentration camps, too.

 

What you will find is that people are people. You can always find some who hate others in just about any religion. Hitler hated far more than Jews, as I'm sure most people know. He abused Darwinism greatly (see, even things not everyone considers faith based can be used in hateful ways.)

 

I have met Muslims who are kind and loving (eg Nadia--I used to know her IRL before we both moved), and I've met a few who are full of hate (perhaps they're not really practicing their faith. We have Jewish family friends who are more like family to me than som)e of my relatives because our families have been very close for 40 years, but I've known a few Zionists in my time. I've seen this with Christians, atheists, agnostics and people who have other faiths and philosophies.