Old dogs and electronic communication - is there really a disconnect here?

[AuntieM]

Or is it perhaps unique to my situation?

 

(Warning: ranting follows)

 

I could give the full details but then we would all have headaches. I'll consolidate it into four words: psych class group project.

 

Because of group dynamics, we have had to do the bulk of the work via internet research and email. My task was to consolidate the "findings," put them into the format of a paper and resend the info to all to proof and edit prior to another member extracting the info and creating a power point presentation.

 

I am the only one in our group of four who seems to be able to effectively send and receive emails from each of the others. Two others do not seem to be able to figure out their technology glitches in an effort to communicate with the others, and the fourth person simply doesn't seem to want to. In order to get my part done, I've had to be the email shuttle person. I have busted my tail to get all the info to all the members in time for them to read everything and contribute changes to the information.

 

So today during a portion of class time, our last opportunity to work face-to-face as a team, it was obvious that the other group members, despite telling me they'd gotten everything, had NOT READ ANY OF IT!!!

 

Time together wasted. Now the next person will do her part and I'm betting none of the rest of us get the opportunity to contribute anything else before the teacher sees it.

 

If you have hung on through the rant, here's my real question: are most people of my generation (say age 45+) simply unwilling to learn how to get GOOD at communicating electronically? Or are many of us simply unable to do so, because it's a new trick and we're old dogs?

 

Caveat - the fact that you are reading this post indicates that you are part of a virtual community that is highly skilled. The people on this board are some of the finest communicators I've had the pleasure to encounter. Whether I agree with you or not, you are all *very good* at sharing info and communicating your points of view through this venue. So think about the other people you know, not just yourself.

 

What are the characteristics of those in middle adulthood and older who can successfully navigate and communicate within cyberspace?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Dh (in his 50's) is very skilled at electronic communication but he is a manager - it is part of his skill set. And that is what I think is key - is it part of your skill set for either your job or your life?

[Starr]

Every parent I know says that in group work few people actually participate. It's a major complaint all the way through school. They might not be as techno savvy but they might be letting you do the work.

[Dana]

Honestly... I was about to expect you to say that your group members were all in their 20s.

 

I think this is the problem with group projects & it doesn't have anything to do with electronic communication. It has to do with students who just don't put the same priorities on their learning.

 

:grouphug:

[prairiewindmomma]

I have noticed that a lot of skills transfer from one electronic device to another. I have been working with people in their 50s+ (family, friends, others) in trying to get them technologically up into at least the late 1990s....texting, emailing, and so on. Most struggle in being able to touch type, to navigate between webpages, and to use drop-down features. Half are willing to struggle through it (like my mother finally putting her business books into software) and half get frustrated and give up (like my father, whose business is suffering because he doesn't email).

 

I really think that all people (octogenerians included) should be able to:

1. touch type

2. create an email and add an attachment

3. use a basic program for creating documents (.doc, .odt)

4. transfer photos onto their computer from their camera

5. buy products online

6. update their software

7. use texting on their phone

 

I would consider advanced basic skills to be:

1. Creating an excel spreadsheet

2. Creating a powerpoint display

3. setting up a basic blog when templates are provided

4. using skype

5. using a basic gps device

6. using facebook

 

The older people in my sphere of influence are increasingly becoming more isolated from us younger folks because so many of us interact with the world socially via electronic devices. It's so much easier to email a photo than to get it printed, write a letter, and drop it in the mailbox. I make the effort, but most of my BILs and SILs do not.

[OLG]

I think this is the problem with group projects & it doesn't have anything to do with electronic communication. It has to do with students who just don't put the same priorities on their learning.

 

:iagree: I saw this with all of my son's college classes that had group projects. It has nothing to do with age, either. Simply often a function of group dynamics, sadly.

[LBS]

Its people who know a little bit about using electronics, but think they know more. OR maybe its the ones who just don't have the integrity to do the work, follow thru. Burns me up. I've got a dozen examples of just such a disconnect situation, sometimes involving groups of kids and safety. One guy I have to mention, a dad, always mused out loud about why we didn't communicate better before group outings because his son always was the one who didn't have money, the right clothing, the food he was supposed to bring. I had to drive a distance with the dad one time, and he confided in me, in a "let-me-give-you-an-efficiency-tip" kind of way, that he always read the first and last line of e-mails and skipped the rest. Wo-ho, boyo. All those carefully worded, inclusive information e-mails about where his kid was going and what he was doing, what he needed, the dad just ignored. Yeah, rant on. The use of e-mail is only as good as the people who know how, and learn how, to use it.

 

To answer your musing question: I think it is people who are capable of learning a new language, getting someone to help (either a tech-geek or your 9 year old, good grief), and like the facility of using something like this, that learn to navigate successfully and feel successful when they do. Surely and hopefully, your teacher will see who did the work? I hope so. You gotta keep trying, can't give up. They'll catch on, and others will see your integrity and be in your group next time.

 

LBS

[Aubrey]

"Groups" are like that. "Group work" usually means "do 4x the normal amt of work & share the credit 4 ways." Unless there are more/less than 4 people in your group.

 

Dh's solution: do everything (literally, everything) yourself.

 

I was once kicked out of a group & failed from a class because the group had *nothing* ready on their presentation day. (The teacher knew this in advance, & when I joined the class late, she assigned me to this group, telling me that I might be able to "get them going.")

 

The group contacted the teacher the morning of our presentation to tell her that my lack of participation had caused them to be unprepared. They were given an extra week; I filed a complaint against the instructor. The grade did not go on my GPA, & the class wasn't in my major--it was my last semester & I just needed an extra elective--but the experience has convinced me that group work is a disaster.

 

The funny thing? I kept trying to "get the group going" but all they would do is sit around & gossip. I tried to "do it all," but they rejected my ideas, saying that would require them to "start over." :lol: Really? Show me what you've done. *Anything.* :bigear:

 

Sheesh. But cheer up--it could be worse! ;)

[elegantlion]

I don't know that seems odd to me. I'm 43, dh is 50, we've had internet since you could have internet. In my best old woman voice...We had dial up and we were glad for it.

 

Most of the people we know communicate online in some form. Dh did have one guy who used to work with him who was 30 and didn't know how to use a computer and said he had no desire to learn, he could text though.

[AuntieM]

I am enjoying reading your replies! I will comment when I have something better than my phone to type on. Thanks for the input!

[missmoe]

My FIL who worked as a laborer his whole life recently decided to take a computer class. He took the class, received a B in the class, and promptly forgot most of what he learned!:001_huh: He can use email and knows how to get to his one website he likes. I think technology has to be a regular part of one's life in order to really learn how to use it. If one doesn't take the time to use and repeat, one is not going to benefit from the practice.

[nd293]

What are the characteristics of those in middle adulthood and older who can successfully navigate and communicate within cyberspace?

 

It is definitely personality / willingness to try / ability to tolerate frustration, but I think having a "push factor" also helps: my friend's 60yr old mother can just manage sms, but doesn't use the Internet. When you live in a different country from your daughter and grandchildren, this is a massive sacrifice. My friend just shrugs, and says "Oh, she says she can't; she won't; that's just my Mom."

 

My Mom who is 65yrs texts, e-mails, uses Skype to read to her grandchildren and is on Facebook (I think, because I seldom use it myself). Sure, learning each new thing has been a hurdle, and she's been hesitant, but we've approached it with "Don't be silly, we'll set it all up for you and talk you through it." We've "talked her through" things by phone and by e-mail, and she has her "computer guy" on speed dial. :lol:

 

If I were you, I'd type up step-by-step instructions on how to open a Yahoo e-mail account, save an attachment and attach a file. Then I'd say that I will only be using electronic communications in the future. No chasing after them. Worth a try...?

[lllll]

..

[AuntieM]

Every parent I know says that in group work few people actually participate. It's a major complaint all the way through school. They might not be as techno savvy but they might be letting you do the work.

 

Honestly... I was about to expect you to say that your group members were all in their 20s.

 

I think this is the problem with group projects & it doesn't have anything to do with electronic communication. It has to do with students who just don't put the same priorities on their learning.

 

:grouphug:

 

:iagree: I saw this with all of my son's college classes that had group projects. It has nothing to do with age, either. Simply often a function of group dynamics, sadly.

 

"Groups" are like that. "Group work" usually means "do 4x the normal amt of work & share the credit 4 ways." Unless there are more/less than 4 people in your group.

 

Dh's solution: do everything (literally, everything) yourself.

 

I was once kicked out of a group & failed from a class because the group had *nothing* ready on their presentation day. (The teacher knew this in advance, & when I joined the class late, she assigned me to this group, telling me that I might be able to "get them going.")

 

The group contacted the teacher the morning of our presentation to tell her that my lack of participation had caused them to be unprepared. They were given an extra week; I filed a complaint against the instructor. The grade did not go on my GPA, & the class wasn't in my major--it was my last semester & I just needed an extra elective--but the experience has convinced me that group work is a disaster.

 

The funny thing? I kept trying to "get the group going" but all they would do is sit around & gossip. I tried to "do it all," but they rejected my ideas, saying that would require them to "start over." :lol: Really? Show me what you've done. *Anything.* :bigear:

 

Sheesh. But cheer up--it could be worse! ;)

 

Ah, yeah, well, when I went to class on the first day and the teacher started talking about our group project, I could feel the hairs going gray. I *loathe* group projects. I really hate anyone else but me being responsible for my outcome that affects my grade. Totally stresses me out.

 

HOWEVER, knowing my own bias against group projects, I resolved to be hopeful. But you are all correct. They just stink.

 

Our group consists of me (47), another mom, probably in her early forties, with a blended family, so she has both grandchildren and young children of her own to demand her time. The third member is perhaps mid thirties and has at least one child, she may be a single mother. The three of us are juggling the course and our families and for the other two, jobs outside the home as well.

 

The fourth is a young whippersnapper, a college senior. She is the one who doesn't seem to care that she's not getting the emails from the other two. She also made it very clear on that first day that she would not be available for any meetings outside of class time, she was just too busy with her job and other classes. She honestly seems to view the rest of us as displaced homemakers getting our jollies with a fun little psych class at the local community college. She hasn't come out and said that, but... it's in the air... it's palpable. You know the type, the one that makes you want to go off on the "Look here, Missy, if you only knew" sort of rant, but I honestly think it would be wasted on her. She is clearly part of the new intellectual elitist generation and proud to be there. (I'd like to see her try to go a few rounds with some of the folks on this board, heh heh.)

 

Sound like fun so far?

 

Aubrey, what a lousy experience for you! I am glad you didn't have to have that grade put on your transcript. I am carefully preserving all my communications and notes on this project in case I have to appeal the grade. Our group has been more like an assembly line than a true cooperative effort. The killer, though, is that the young gal is the last stage of the process - she deemed herself the techno wizard and scooped up the presentation portion. She has not contributed much to the process to this point, but did just tonight send me a preview of the power point. It is beautiful, however, it has major content issues. She basically included only what she wanted to say and ignored the rest of the group's conclusions. What she's put together doesn't even include all the points very clearly required by the assignment instructions. She even went so far as to deem some of our research sources as not credible, saying she had to "start all over again" and ended up using only two online sources, one of which being.... wikipedia.:glare:

 

So, now I'm here in the wee hours because I'm too churned up to sleep. I sent her an email noting my concerns, I tried to be diplomatic but there's no telling how she'll take it (well, yeah, she's going to call me names but not to my face). We'll see how this all shakes out. By Thursday it will be done, thank goodness.

[AuntieM]

Dh (in his 50's) is very skilled at electronic communication but he is a manager - it is part of his skill set. And that is what I think is key - is it part of your skill set for either your job or your life?

 

Yes, this is a great point. Even as a home schooling moms, mining cyberspace and processing large quantities of information is something many of us do, even if we're not counted among the work force.

 

I have noticed that a lot of skills transfer from one electronic device to another. I have been working with people in their 50s+ (family, friends, others) in trying to get them technologically up into at least the late 1990s....texting, emailing, and so on. Most struggle in being able to touch type, to navigate between webpages, and to use drop-down features. Half are willing to struggle through it (like my mother finally putting her business books into software) and half get frustrated and give up (like my father, whose business is suffering because he doesn't email).

 

I really think that all people (octogenerians included) should be able to:

1. touch type

2. create an email and add an attachment

3. use a basic program for creating documents (.doc, .odt)

4. transfer photos onto their computer from their camera

5. buy products online

6. update their software

7. use texting on their phone

 

I would consider advanced basic skills to be:

1. Creating an excel spreadsheet

2. Creating a powerpoint display

3. setting up a basic blog when templates are provided

4. using skype

5. using a basic gps device

6. using facebook

 

The older people in my sphere of influence are increasingly becoming more isolated from us younger folks because so many of us interact with the world socially via electronic devices. It's so much easier to email a photo than to get it printed, write a letter, and drop it in the mailbox. I make the effort, but most of my BILs and SILs do not.

 

This is a great list! I had not thought of the physical dexterity issues that some older folks might have with keyboards. I told my mom that if she bought something, it needed to be easy to use and have excellent customer service (I told her to go straight to the Apple store, actually). It is tragic that we are losing our old fashioned communication skills, though. I love getting real handwritten letters, they are so very rare these days. But I must confess, my own handwriting is getting worse every year, I have to say the cause is lack of practice.

 

Its people who know a little bit about using electronics, but think they know more. OR maybe its the ones who just don't have the integrity to do the work, follow thru. Burns me up. I've got a dozen examples of just such a disconnect situation, sometimes involving groups of kids and safety. One guy I have to mention, a dad, always mused out loud about why we didn't communicate better before group outings because his son always was the one who didn't have money, the right clothing, the food he was supposed to bring. I had to drive a distance with the dad one time, and he confided in me, in a "let-me-give-you-an-efficiency-tip" kind of way, that he always read the first and last line of e-mails and skipped the rest. Wo-ho, boyo. All those carefully worded, inclusive information e-mails about where his kid was going and what he was doing, what he needed, the dad just ignored. Yeah, rant on. The use of e-mail is only as good as the people who know how, and learn how, to use it. Wow... what a genius...:001_huh: But I think that's how a lot of people are, they get so much more info to process these days - because cmcn is so easy now - that as a coping mechanism, they just skim everything. I imagine most people make some mental note that the info is there, available somewhere should they need the details, but it sounds like your friend ignores that part!

 

To answer your musing question: I think it is people who are capable of learning a new language, getting someone to help (either a tech-geek or your 9 year old, good grief), and like the facility of using something like this, that learn to navigate successfully and feel successful when they do.

LBS

 

Yes, I can see how each of the things you note would be encouraging and helpful to older folks using tecchie things for the first time. Heck, I refer to my boys as TTS - Teen Tech Support.

 

I don't know that seems odd to me. I'm 43, dh is 50, we've had internet since you could have internet. In my best old woman voice...We had dial up and we were glad for it.

 

Most of the people we know communicate online in some form. Dh did have one guy who used to work with him who was 30 and didn't know how to use a computer and said he had no desire to learn, he could text though.

 

I remember dial up! Don't miss it. Desire to learn is priceless. Essential. Yeah, you have to want to know something bad enough to bother to learn it.

 

My FIL who worked as a laborer his whole life recently decided to take a computer class. He took the class, received a B in the class, and promptly forgot most of what he learned!:001_huh: He can use email and knows how to get to his one website he likes. I think technology has to be a regular part of one's life in order to really learn how to use it. If one doesn't take the time to use and repeat, one is not going to benefit from the practice.

 

He went for it, I love that! But it kind of exemplifies something I've heard before, that the younger generations who were raised with more computer technology actually have more and different neural pathways in the brain to comprehend it, laid down by their early exposure to it. So maybe you can teach an old dog new tricks, he just has to work harder - and have a greater desire - to learn it? Sounds reasonable to me.

 

It is definitely personality / willingness to try / ability to tolerate frustration, but I think having a "push factor" also helps: my friend's 60yr old mother can just manage sms, but doesn't use the Internet. When you live in a different country from your daughter and grandchildren, this is a massive sacrifice. My friend just shrugs, and says "Oh, she says she can't; she won't; that's just my Mom."

 

My Mom who is 65yrs texts, e-mails, uses Skype to read to her grandchildren and is on Facebook (I think, because I seldom use it myself). Sure, learning each new thing has been a hurdle, and she's been hesitant, but we've approached it with "Don't be silly, we'll set it all up for you and talk you through it." We've "talked her through" things by phone and by e-mail, and she has her "computer guy" on speed dial. :lol:

I love your mom!

 

If I were you, I'd type up step-by-step instructions on how to open a Yahoo e-mail account, save an attachment and attach a file. Then I'd say that I will only be using electronic communications in the future. No chasing after them. Worth a try...? Project over on Thursday - thank goodness!

 

I don't have any advice, but your post reminded me of something. Recently, our then-17yod was using the net at our local library while a beginner's class for using emails was in progress She said they were mostly older than dh and I (we're 54yo).

 

They were talking about how their grown kids had given them computers and they never used them. One of them said she would start it up every now and then, and then turn it off. The other agreed, knowingly. And so on. Dd had us laughing so hard we had tears in our eyes when she was describing the conversations. But, bless their hearts, they had signed up for the class and (as long as it was held during daylight hours) shown up. lol

 

Kathy

 

That's terrific! I think it's great that they were willing to give it a go!

[Trish]

Well sheesh, I'm in this age range, and I don't know anyone my age who can't do email, plus attachments! Anyone who HAS an email address to give to you I would think would know how to send/receive mail on it. So I agree with those who said this is a "group project" problem, not an email issue.

 

My mother (in her 70s) does fine with email. My mother in law (80s) does not, but she would never give anyone an email address, although she does own a computer.

 

Your rant is well-earned!

[AuntieM]

Well sheesh, I'm in this age range, and I don't know anyone my age who can't do email, plus attachments! Anyone who HAS an email address to give to you I would think would know how to send/receive mail on it. So I agree with those who said this is a "group project" problem, not an email issue.

 

My mother (in her 70s) does fine with email. My mother in law (80s) does not, but she would never give anyone an email address, although she does own a computer.

 

Your rant is well-earned!

 

Another poster earlier noted something along the lines of "a little knowledge is dangerous." These women have email accounts, but seem to have issues with things like not being careful when typing, not understanding error messages, not realizing that their email accounts don't have enough storage space to accommodate an attachment beyond a certain size, not being able to figure out what happened to their email sent to the whole group when they put a typo in the address of the first person on the list... It's like they know something's wrong, but would rather just shrug and say they don't know why it wasn't received than to follow the trail of error messages to figure out the problem. I mean, I'm no computer genius (my kids will attest to that), but I do know what will blow up my mailbox and have an alternate gmail account for potentially large files.

 

But I do think you're right. My particular issue is one of poor group dynamics compounded by a tight time schedule to complete the project. We're lucky group number one.

[Peela]

I do come across many people in my age (43) and older (mainly older) who just dont spend much time on computers and are not electronically savvy.

My parents are- but my dad had a computer when I was a kid- a rare thing. However he couldn't handle Facebook recently- he didn't like it at all and closed his account. I had asked him to open one so he could keep in touch with his grandkids.

Mum had motivation- her kids and grandkids living far away, and her fibromyalgia keeping her at home a lot. SHe is a photographer too.

My whole family are computer savvy- I was the last on board, actually, and that was 15 years ago.

 

But I often come across people who check their email only occasionally or don't even have a computer or brag about how they don't like computers. Often they are defensive and consciously don't want to get into computers. I was like that about mobile phones for a long time (and still don't use mine much) so I do understand.

My MIL has not managed to send an email yet despite having a computer and having various adult grandkids trying to teach her.

 

So who knows- could be resistance to technology- but also could be other things, as others have said.

[Dana]

The fourth is a young whippersnapper, a college senior. She is the one who doesn't seem to care that she's not getting the emails from the other two. She also made it very clear on that first day that she would not be available for any meetings outside of class time, she was just too busy with her job and other classes. She honestly seems to view the rest of us as displaced homemakers getting our jollies with a fun little psych class at the local community college. She hasn't come out and said that, but... it's in the air... it's palpable. You know the type, the one that makes you want to go off on the "Look here, Missy, if you only knew" sort of rant, but I honestly think it would be wasted on her. She is clearly part of the new intellectual elitist generation and proud to be there. (I'd like to see her try to go a few rounds with some of the folks on this board, heh heh.)

 

Sound like fun so far?

 

I'd suggest you speak privately with the instructor about your experience. It may not get you anywhere, but your instructor may consider alternate ways to get a similar experience for future classes.

 

It IS possible to do good group work. One way is to have a form that all members of the group fill out and the grade is split among members (it's a way a group can note that one person was a deadbeat). Basically, the form says who did what and people write the percentages of the work they did.

 

Sorry for the frustration.

[AuntieM]

I'd suggest you speak privately with the instructor about your experience. It may not get you anywhere, but your instructor may consider alternate ways to get a similar experience for future classes.

 

It IS possible to do good group work. One way is to have a form that all members of the group fill out and the grade is split among members (it's a way a group can note that one person was a deadbeat). Basically, the form says who did what and people write the percentages of the work they did.

 

Sorry for the frustration.

 

 

I just got off the phone with another group member, and we (three) are doing a conference call in the next hour to decide what to do. We've asked her to modify the power point, she replied something with the tone akin to yeah, whatever... We think she's probably responding with what she thinks we want to hear, then plans to just do it her way anyhow. When we talk again, the rest of us are going to have to decide on a strategy -

 

a) Tell the teacher up from the group is in disagreement (and risk coming off as belligerent from the get-go).

 

b) Tell #4 she has less time to make her presentation then add a second power point to fill in the missing parts (humiliating to #4).

 

c) Wait to see what grade we get, and proceed from there. We could luck out if the teacher is lenient (but this is not likely, there's a clear standard set for what must be done and so far not all is covered). If we get a bad grade, print off all the email evidence and appeal the grade.

 

Either way, the rest of us have a lot of notes & bibliography to turn in, we just have to decide if included with that there needs to be some letter of protest!

 

We do have the opportunity to evaluate each other, and I don't know how much that affects the grade. We also just realized that we don't know whether we will be individually graded, or if one grade will be applied to the project and that's what each person gets.

 

Oh, well, in any case the train wreck is scheduled for just after noon tomorrow. I'll be glad when it's over. Sheesh, I've been less irritated prepping for surgery the next day!

[MariannNOVA]

Honestly... I was about to expect you to say that your group members were all in their 20s.

 

I think this is the problem with group projects & it doesn't have anything to do with electronic communication. It has to do with students who just don't put the same priorities on their learning.

 

:grouphug:

 

THAT -- in red. And, when the kids were in private school, there were a few moms who absolutely REFUSED to have anything to do with email. One had to contact them by phone, write a note, or speak to them face to face if one expected them to get a message. With this particular group of moms, I was unable to plan playdates, classroom activities, field trip chaperone stuff, etc via email with them. I took to printing out the emails when I sent them, and knocking on their car windows in the carpool line after school OR having the school secretary send home the info with the child. I did find it frustrating.

[Dana]

 

a) Tell the teacher up from the group is in disagreement (and risk coming off as belligerent from the get-go).

 

b) Tell #4 she has less time to make her presentation then add a second power point to fill in the missing parts (humiliating to #4).

 

c) Wait to see what grade we get, and proceed from there. We could luck out if the teacher is lenient (but this is not likely, there's a clear standard set for what must be done and so far not all is covered). If we get a bad grade, print off all the email evidence and appeal the grade.

 

As an instructor, knowing there's an issue in advance makes me more likely to be lenient or to consider your issues later on. I wouldn't go with © - especially because a grade appeal is a real pain.

 

I have heard of some instructors who allow a group to "fire" a member :)

 

Now, YMMV - and some instructors would disagree with me as well. I think © is not a good idea though. (b) may be better. And if the other group members are okay - talk with your instructor in advance as a heads-up.

 

However - I hate group work enough that I won't assign it at all. Maybe other instructors who do use it (because it can be done effectively!) will chime in.

[Tullia]

I'm not sure what the best course of action would be, but I am sure that changing a grade after the fact is next to impossible. Could someone in the group ask the instructor a general question about what can be done if one group member insists on going solo? I don't like group projects either. I'd have a backup presentation ready to go just in case.

 

ETA: I'm laughing about your young whippersnapper group member using Wiki for a reference. Most of ds' assignments specify Wiki citations not allowed.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Martha in NM