s/o So how DO you tame the back-talk?

[FairProspects]

What has worked for you in taming the back-talk, disrespect, screaming, etc.?

 

Ds is very verbal, which is good in someways, but sometimes he uses it to say horrible things or yell and scream.

 

We have tried taking away screen time but he is incredibly stubborn, and his response was "Fine. I didn't want to watch T.V. anyway." We have had similar results with removing toys or legos. This is a kid who loves to stay home, so taking away activities would not discourage the behavior.

 

We have tried a quarter system, where he earns quarters when we see desired behavior & speech, and then he loses quarters for talking back, arguing or yelling, and while he likes the system, it seems to have little effect on whether or not he actually does it. Meaning, he does feel regret when he loses a quarter, but it doesn't stop the behavior from occurring in the first place.

 

I realize that it is February and that is undoubtedly part of the problem since the behavior has escalated in the past few days, but I am at my wit's end with this kid!

 

I should also add that giving him "do overs" or making him practice proper responses (like calmly repeating what he should say 10 times) infuriates him even more in the moment and usually causes a larger meltdown.

 

What has worked with your incredibly strong-willed kids to stop rude speech, back-talk, yelling, etc.?

[secular_mom]

Telling the yeller that I am listening, I hear that they are very upset about x, and I'd like to talk it over with them without the screaming/etc. There's always a reason for yelling, and it's usually because they are having VERY big feelings or they feel they aren't being heard. Having their concerns dismissed can trigger such an angry response, feeling that they are experiencing injustice can trigger such a response.

Is the child always responding this way in certain scenarios? Is it always after being told to do something?

Just have a talk, and listen to their feelings respectfully (do NOT dismiss their feelings/POV/etc.) and work out a solution that meets everyone's needs.

[2_girls_mommy]

:bigear: hoping someone has the magic solution!

[Mrs Mungo]

Did you see this thread? It had some good examples for dealing with temper tantrums; I think some of them would be useful for older kids.

 

eta: Is this your six year old? I would still consider this a temper tantrum instead of back-talk. Go to your room until you can speak to me/your sister/whomever properly. Yes, he would do it over. If it made him more mad, he would be sent to his room to collect himself.

 

I'd also manage the behavior. Does he need more protein in his diet? Have you tried Omega 3s in the am? My kids get a lot of protein in their breakfast, they eat eggs almost every day. They also take fish oil capsules in the morning. We have a snack around 10:30 of cheese and fruit, hummus and crackers, something like that. Our lunch contains protein.

 

Does he get enough rest?

 

Does he get physical activity every day?

 

Is he on any medications known to cause mood problems (I had problems like this with my son when he was on singulair)?

Edited February 14, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[Parrothead]

I won't listen to that. I'm sorry but I'm an adult and any child that talks like that to me needs to go to his/her room until he/she can rejoin polite company or go home if the person is visiting. (Yes, have kicked mother and child out of my house with a "I'm so sorry he is so tired. We will have to finish this conversation when Junior has napped," all the while gathering up belonging and walking mother to the door.

 

For my own child - "go to your room until you can behave properly." I'd expect her to go to her room even if I had to pick her up (can't do it any more though) and place her in there and shut the door. Oh, and a child needs nothing in his/her room but a bed.

[JVA]

I won't listen to that. I'm sorry but I'm an adult and any child that talks like that to me needs to go to his/her room until he/she can rejoin polite company or go home if the person is visiting. (Yes, have kicked mother and child out of my house with a "I'm so sorry he is so tired. We will have to finish this conversation when Junior has napped," all the while gathering up belonging and walking mother to the door.

 

For my own child - "go to your room until you can behave properly." I'd expect her to go to her room even if I had to pick her up (can't do it any more though) and place her in there and shut the door. Oh, and a child needs nothing in his/her room but a bed.

 

I completely:iagree: with this. I should have counted how many times I sent certain children to their room and not come out until they had a smile on their face and were willing/able to speak respectfully to the rest of the family or me. It did wonders. Being told they weren't 'welcome' to interact with the rest of us until they did stopped them in their tracks. Not being wanted/welcome was a huge punishment for our kiddos. When they did emerge from their room, with a smile :D, they were welcomed with open arms and a hug.

[FairProspects]

So, what do you do if they refuse to go to their room? Unfortunately, this ds is the size of an 8 year old and is rapidly approaching the size where I can no longer pick him up and carry him upstairs. I've tried taking things away when he refuses, but as I mentioned, he says he doesn't care.

 

He also has gotten close to the point of wrecking his room when sent there. He has scribbled on the walls, which lost him all writing utensils during quiet time and earned him a paint job, and he slams doors & kicks walls (after which we practiced closing the door quietly 20 times and he did, but he screamed loudly in between every other door closing).

 

I'm sure Mrs. Mungo is right that it is just a form of a temper tantrum, but this ds has always been incredibly intense since birth, and as he gets older, he is bigger and is louder and has more ability to express his intensity. I'm just not sure how to re-direct such strong feelings into something more appropriate when he is angry? :confused:

 

I've tried telling him it was okay to punch beds & pillows, to rip up paper if he cleans up after himself, or to draw or build something to calm down, but he refuses and so far the only thing he says will calm him down is playing computer games which I definitely don't want to use to reward bad behavior :tongue_smilie:.

 

There may be some kind of nutritional component - he is allergic to nearly every form of protein but peanut butter & beans. I work hard to get him some protein, but he probably doesn't get enough.

 

FWIW, I do NOT have the same problems with ds 2.

Edited February 14, 2011 by FairProspects

[fairfarmhand]

I totally feel your pain as my dd who is 13 is just as intense as your son. Believe me when I say I KNOW how awful that is.

 

Slamming doors.....my dh took her door off the hinges after she continued in this.

 

 

Honestly. with my dd, we had to have HUGE consequences for losing control like that. It varied. Sometimes, I made her miss out on a favorite outing. Sometimes, it was loosing a privilege. My dh (who has slammed a door or 2 in his time) told her that if he lost his temper and slammed a door he would pay her 10 dollars. But if she looses her temper and slams a door, she has to pay him 10 dollars. It has kind of become a bet between the two of them.

 

I really had to get my dh onboard. It was a problem that still hasn't completely disappeared, but has slowly improved.

 

It goes better if I say nothing in response. My dd gets a cold blank stare and she knows that later , when she is calm it is going to be so bad. I also found that giving out consequences in the heat of the battle, so to speak merely escalated things. It went better when I would send her to her room at the first sign of mouthiness (rather than waiting till she was totally out of control) and later we could impose the consequences.

 

Does your son do this when your dh is around?

[Amy in NH]

My first response was what the other posters have written about sending him to his room. We did "123 Magic", and it worked wonderfully.

 

My second response is that your son sounds just like the son of a friend of mine: amazingly, precociously verbal (and I have had verbal kids - but not like that), totally incapable of handling his own emotions, with frequent meltdowns including yelling and screaming. He is not trying to be "bad", he just can't help himself. He was diagnosed a year ago with sensory integration disorder and is having treatment with an OT. He is SO much better.

 

Good luck!

[FairProspects]

I totally feel your pain as my dd who is 13 is just as intense as your son. Believe me when I say I KNOW how awful that is.

 

Slamming doors.....my dh took her door off the hinges after she continued in this.

 

 

Honestly. with my dd, we had to have HUGE consequences for losing control like that. It varied. Sometimes, I made her miss out on a favorite outing. Sometimes, it was loosing a privilege. My dh (who has slammed a door or 2 in his time) told her that if he lost his temper and slammed a door he would pay her 10 dollars. But if she looses her temper and slams a door, she has to pay him 10 dollars. It has kind of become a bet between the two of them.

 

I really had to get my dh onboard. It was a problem that still hasn't completely disappeared, but has slowly improved.

 

It goes better if I say nothing in response. My dd gets a cold blank stare and she knows that later , when she is calm it is going to be so bad. I also found that giving out consequences in the heat of the battle, so to speak merely escalated things. It went better when I would send her to her room at the first sign of mouthiness (rather than waiting till she was totally out of control) and later we could impose the consequences.

 

Does your son do this when your dh is around?

 

Wow! It does sound like we have similar kids. Ds does do much better with dh (who is a psychotherapist too), but unfortunately he has been working a ton lately which may add to the problem.

 

I think some of your ideas are great about giving consequences later - I may have to think about doing that one, and taking the door off the hinges is a good idea too.

 

My second response is that your son sounds just like the son of a friend of mine: amazingly, precociously verbal (and I have had verbal kids - but not like that), totally incapable of handling his own emotions, with frequent meltdowns including yelling and screaming. He is not trying to be "bad", he just can't help himself. He was diagnosed a year ago with sensory integration disorder and is having treatment with an OT. He is SO much better.

 

Good luck!

 

This is a piece of the puzzle too. He does have SPD and has been in OT for 18 months now. We have seen progress, but who knows, maybe he is on sensory overload this week and is just having a bad week. I do catch flashes of maturity now (such as the time he apologized unprompted for his impatience), that would have been impossible for him a year ago. I just wish they would occur more often!!

[sbgrace]

With my very verbal, strong willed, confrontational child I do send him to a time out spot and after time is up and when he's ready to communicate respectfully he can come out. If he doesn't go a clock starts ticking and that time adds to the minimum time he has to stay (as does yelling while he's in there, etc.). The reason that works with mine is he's actually in control emotionally.

 

His twin has very poor emotional control. He's not got the confrontational nature of my other kiddo but when he's upset he's out of control upset (ie today he really was going to throw away all his train books which are, by far, his most favorite and treasured items). If you offered him an ice cream in that mode (I don't..just an example) I am certain he would throw it on the ground. He's in that melt down mode often. If your son is like that no consequence is going to work in that situation imo because the emotional state and reactivity over-rule reason. I read somewhere that a child who is in a purely emotional mind (melt down is that) can't use their thinking mind at all. Getting my son back to thinking mind is key to calming him but that's not easy to do when he's in that point. He's really tough and consequences mean little to him. I've heard people love The Explosive Child though I've not read it. Honestly--what I think works best for this child is an approach like the Nurtured Heart Approach by Howard Glasser and similar approaches. If you check at your library Glasser's first book (not well written, repititive, etc.) is often in library systems--Transforming the Difficult Child. A better book in terms of writing (and he's changed the approach a little) is All Children Flourishing. I like it much better but it doesn't have a system detailed in it that was in the first book that your son may need. I can't remember other books I've read that had similar concepts that might help. If I think of them I'll post.

Edited February 14, 2011 by sbgrace

[phathui5]

he is allergic to nearly every form of protein but peanut butter & beans

 

He's allergic to meat?

[FairProspects]

He's allergic to meat?

 

No, he's not allergic to meat, but other than ground meats, the texture of meat makes his sensory issues flare and he either gags or refuses eat it. I could try sausage though, we haven't done that in awhile and he might go for it. Thanks for the thought!

[wapiti]

This may sound a little silly, but can anyone recommend an "anger management" book - a book that gives examples of more appropriate expression of feelings - for a pre-teen? I'm sort of out of ideas, as I would never have dared to talk back to my own mom, but nor I am as intense(?) as dd is.

[ShutterBug]

So, what do you do if they refuse to go to their room? Unfortunately, this ds is the size of an 8 year old and is rapidly approaching the size where I can no longer pick him up and carry him upstairs. I've tried taking things away when he refuses, but as I mentioned, he says he doesn't care.

 

He has to have some kind of trigger. An activity, toy or privelege that you can use as leverage. 10 minutes off of bedtime for every time you ask him to go to his room and he doesn't obey. There has to be something.

 

He also has gotten close to the point of wrecking his room when sent there. He has scribbled on the walls, which lost him all writing utensils during quiet time and earned him a paint job, and he slams doors & kicks walls (after which we practiced closing the door quietly 20 times and he did, but he screamed loudly in between every other door closing).

 

Make his room un-wreckable. Remove the door and clear out the room of everything except a mattress and blankets. He can begin to earn them back when he shows he can control his behavior. If he kicks a hole in the wall then you'll get the supplies and he can fix it. If he has money in a bank account then he can pay for the supplies to fix or replace what he's damaged or broken.

 

I'm sure Mrs. Mungo is right that it is just a form of a temper tantrum, but this ds has always been incredibly intense since birth, and as he gets older, he is bigger and is louder and has more ability to express his intensity. I'm just not sure how to re-direct such strong feelings into something more appropriate when he is angry? :confused:

 

He's 6. If he can't control his behavior to a point, then I'd strongly consider an evaluation to make sure there is nothing else going on.

 

 

 

Sorry if this seems harsh, but this sounds like more than typical 6 year old mouthiness and I personally feel that continuing to tolerate or make excuses is only going to cause the behavior to continue to escalate.

[dirty ethel rackham]

These sound like tantrums. Destructive behavior in a child that age is an indication of a bigger problem. Does he have more hidden allergies that might be triggers? I second the Omega-3 supplementation. I really don't think that punishment is going to get rid of the tantrums, but he may need coaching ahead of time to learn to deal with things before he floods with emotion. It sounds like he needs a "safe room" where he can settle down without the ability to destroy anything. If he will not comply, you need to take him there. You don't need to physically pick him up, but you can take him by the hand and move him there.

 

Seriously, I would look into physical/neurological/psychological causes. This is not normal behavior.

[TKDmom]

I'm reading this book right now. It's specifically about gifted children. I don't know if your ds is gifted, but he certainly seems to share a lot of the "overexcitabilities" and intensity associated with giftedness. I don't think the book will be a cure-all, but a couple of things have stuck out to me so far:

 

1) When dc explode, don't react emotionally. I have a hard time staying calm myself. But when the parent explodes back at the child, it only escalates the situation. Your goal is to help dc learn to control themselves, not to "be right" or punish them.

 

2) When dc act like they don't care about the consequence, but you know better, stick with it. Eventually the desire to watch TV will win out over the desire to prove you wrong.

[Peela]

Telling the yeller that I am listening, I hear that they are very upset about x, and I'd like to talk it over with them without the screaming/etc. There's always a reason for yelling, and it's usually because they are having VERY big feelings or they feel they aren't being heard. Having their concerns dismissed can trigger such an angry response, feeling that they are experiencing injustice can trigger such a response.

Is the child always responding this way in certain scenarios? Is it always after being told to do something?

Just have a talk, and listen to their feelings respectfully (do NOT dismiss their feelings/POV/etc.) and work out a solution that meets everyone's needs.

 

I havent read all the posts because this one is spot on for me.

The amping up of the emotions often happens because they don't feel heard. Focusing on listening, instead of the bad behaviour, helps here. YOu don't have to agree (in my experience ds was usually so unreasonable it is ridiculous) BUT they still need to be heard and validated.

Waiting till a child can express themselves properly before listening to what is behind the emotion, might mean missing the boat completely and just going around in circles trying to deal with a behavioural issue that has deeper roots.

It takes lots of patience, and a need to look beyond the surface to what their real feelings and needs might be.

ANd I'm not saying it is easy, or that you don't deal with the inappropriate expression of the issue as well, but they might not be able to change it if their underlying need is not being met. They are the child.

As my son has learned with maturity to express himself, the explosive and rude behaviour has lessened a lot- but it has taken many years.

[Parrothead]

So, what do you do if they refuse to go to their room? Unfortunately, this ds is the size of an 8 year old and is rapidly approaching the size where I can no longer pick him up and carry him upstairs. I've tried taking things away when he refuses, but as I mentioned, he says he doesn't care.

 

 

I know he has to listen to what you say and be respectful to you, but assuming that you and dad are together, what does dad do about all this. There needs to be a bit of Alpha male going on. If your ds won't respect you as his mother, he needs to respect you as his father's wife. (It is a guy thing.)

 

Other than that you are going to have to find what motivates him. Maybe a counselor can help.

[Joyofsixreboot]

(((Hugs))) My 12yo dd is the most intense person when she's in a rage I've ever met (and I'm hardly the easy going type). I won't go into the ugly years but I've found saying 1) "This would be your chance to rephrase that". has helped. If no rephrase then the settled on consequence. And it has to be 100% consistent. 2) Telling her that we will deal with this when I calm down 3) DH and I have to present a united front with this one. Consistent and united.

[momofeight]

My first response was what the other posters have written about sending him to his room. We did "123 Magic", and it worked wonderfully.

 

:iagree: Love this book! I think it would be very beneficial to model for him an appropriate response (not that I think you act inappropriately), but more like an over-the-top role-play kind of thing. Throughout the day, as you come across situations that frustrate or upset you, make it a point of processing those feelings out loud. I also know, from experience, you need to discuss with DH and decide on a consequence together and then be 100% consistent with it, even if it doesn't seem to work at first. I would also send him to his room when he is angry, as it will not do any good to try to reason with him in his very unreasonable state. With my kids, at times, I have had to tell them to go to their rooms and then cut-off communication with them until they complied - nobody likes the silent treatment, it has been quite successful in our house.

 

Hang in there! It can be a rough ride! :grouphug: