Roxy Roller Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 ...is TWSS the best option? Or is there something better/different out there? We did try IEW Level A a couple of years ago and neither my DD, nor I, were thrilled with it. We didn't get very far. I am honestly sick and tired of trying writing program after writing program.:tongue_smilie: Nothing seems to click with me - I don't think the problem is my children. The problem is my follow-through on a program. I haven't found anything that I 'love' enough to be truly excited to teach. So I am wondering if I need a course to learn to teach writing. :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keniki Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I have found TWSS to be VERY helpful in teaching me how to teach writing. I am a math person, and this is the closest thing I've found to a "formula" for teaching writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Have you listened to the SWB audio lectures on how to teach writing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Roller Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 Have you listened to the SWB audio lectures on how to teach writing? Yes, at least a half a dozen times. They do resound with me, and I agree with them in theory. I just feel like I need more hand-holding. We are doing WWE. My DD11 has completed the Remedia Beginning Outlining book and is working on the Remedia Outlining book. I want her to start outlining some history as soon as she has completed the book. I guess I still compare my DC to what PS is doing and I feel like they are way behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 You say you are using WWE. Do you own the hardcover book that covers the whole program? SWB addresses that exact thing in the first part of that book. She reminds the reader that 'volume' produced by ps kids doesn't translate into quality writing. My son has many friends in ps. They are all writing journals and 'research' papers. I have seen them and they are crap. The kids can't write a clear sentence, they can't orgainze their thoughts and they have no..no..voice. That is NORMAL for kids this age. To make them write these long papers is just painful. It makes them hate writing. My 5th grade son may never have written a 5 page paper but he knows a run on sentence when he sees one. He can pick out the main idea of a paragraph. He narrates beautifully. In a few years, when he is 14 or so, I am sure he can write a paper that will run laps around anything his peer write. Don't make it harder for yourself than it has to be. I am sure your kids are doing just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomsintheGarden Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 If I were you, I'd try to borrow TWSS from a friend to try it. That way you could see if you could glean what you could use from it without the expense. I know what you mean about writing programs. I've used and read many (at least 10) in 14+ years of homeschooling. I've gotten good ideas from all of them, but here are some other resources I have found particularly worthwhile: - Susan Wise Bauer's literature and writing lectures (4 total). You can download them very inexpensively from the Peace Hill Press, and get the written notes online. - The Well-Trained Mind, 2009 edition. - The Lively Art of Writing. - The Elements of Style HTH, GardenMom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamee Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I need help in this area too, what is TWSS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testimony Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I need help in this area too, what is TWSS? Teaching Writing: Structure and Style from Institute of Excellence In Writing (IEW). Blessings, Karen http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Reading Writing Tools and Write Like Hemingway helped me develop my minimalistic scope and sequence of what NEEDED to be covered. Now I am able to pick and choose resources, rather than blindly follow a curriculum. I used to just feel lost, not knowing what did and did not NEED to be covered, and then couldnt buckle down and MASTER anything. While you are reading and honing your scope and sequence, try assigning lots and lots of formulatic single paragraphs. Even if later you have a distaste for formulatic paragraphs, you can easily build off that foundation, to something loftier and more individual. It will keep the children busy, while you read. It is easy to find checklists and rubrics for paragraphs that describe, explain, define, etc. I have found the paragraph the place to start. I work backwards to work on my sentences, and forward stringing the paragraphs together into larger works, but have made the paragraph my priority and starting place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Uhura Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I'm keeping my fingers crossed that SWB gets Writing With Skill done in 2011. We are a demanding bunch, aren't we? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacy in NJ Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 The Lively Art of Writing can be a really wonderful reference book for the teacher. I wouldn't use it as curriculum for a young student, though; it's a high school level instructional book. I would try it prior to IEW; it costs about $7. http://www.amazon.com/Lively-Art-Writing-Mentor/product-reviews/0451627121/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#RDKZ835LDXV71 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine State Sue Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 What writing programs have you tried? We used Write Shop for 6th-7th-8th grade. I liked it because it provided all the hand-holding *I* needed. It is extremely detail-oriented, which might turn off someone who knows how to teach writing, but was just right for me. You may read my review here. I also have a review from a lady who used and compared IEW and Write Shop. If you would like it, email me (easier than PM), and I'll send it to you. I don't like to post it publicly because I did not write it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 :tongue_smilie: Nothing seems to click with me - I don't think the problem is my children. The problem is my follow-through on a program. I haven't found anything that I 'love' enough to be truly excited to teach. :bigear: You might have to just admit you don't like to teach writing. I don't like to teach science! :iagree: Unfortunately I still have to do it. The search for the perfect thing will often lead us astray. We are better off using a good curriculum consistently than a great curriculum... Because if we never find that GREAT curriculum, or if that GREAT curriculum is difficult to pull out every day or stick to, then it's utterly useless to us and our children. Pick something you can get in the habit of consistently doing and then you can switch at some point. I'm curious. Why not just outline the day's history reading and then re-write using TWSS' format? It's not exciting but it will teach the kiddos to put their thoughts in an organized manner on paper. And, really, that counts as writing in middle school. :) And something is almost always better than nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freerange Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) ...is TWSS the best option? Or is there something better/different out there? We did try IEW Level A a couple of years ago and neither my DD, nor I, were thrilled with it. We didn't get very far. If you still have SWI A, I'd try again with that first before moving on to something else. :001_huh:I'm slightly stunned that I just typed that, but there you go. When we first tried SWI A, they hated it, so I put it away & tried not to look at it. We tried a number of things last year, but nothing was really clicking for us, so as a last resort I got out SWI A again, and said we needed to dig in & try to make it work. The alternative I gave was cutting back elsewhere so we could afford to buy something else. They reluctantly sat down to work through it.... and loved it.:svengo: Now they're asking to do it every day, even those days when they were full of a cold and trying every ruse they could think of to get out of other subjects. Edited to add: TWSS is very good, but if its the style that your DD doesn't like in SWI A, than she probably wouldn't like TWSS style teaching either. On the other hand if its just the watching DVDs, or the particular topics used for the assignments, that she dislikes, then it could work well. Edited January 9, 2011 by freerange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraQ Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 ...is TWSS the best option? Or is there something better/different out there? We did try IEW Level A a couple of years ago and neither my DD, nor I, were thrilled with it. We didn't get very far. I am honestly sick and tired of trying writing program after writing program.:tongue_smilie: Nothing seems to click with me - I don't think the problem is my children. The problem is my follow-through on a program. I haven't found anything that I 'love' enough to be truly excited to teach. So I am wondering if I need a course to learn to teach writing. :bigear: I think it's very important to understand what's taught in TWSS in order to successfully use SWI. Understanding the why's, not just the what's, may well help you with the follow-through and support your kids need from you with any writing program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bethben Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I wound up buying TWSS because I was in a very similar situation as the original poster. I don't really care for the program, but it is helping me teach writing. The nice thing is that it is formulaic. It requires the student to improve on their writing. After my ds did a co-op class using it, I found some dress ups naturally moving into his summaries. I have found it to be the best program that teaches me to teach my children. Like I said before, I don't really care for it - the TM is just notes and I'm not a DVD for the teacher lover, but it really gets the job done. I can get past all that for the sake of making writing instruction easier. Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Roller Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 You might have to just admit you don't like to teach writing. I think this may be true! I will have to give it some thought. As a homeschooling mama, I have to figure this out soon, because I don't have the option of skipping writing.:tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Roller Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) If you still have SWI A, I'd try again with that first before moving on to something else. :001_huh:I'm slightly stunned that I just typed that, but there you go. When we first tried SWI A, they hated it, so I put it away & tried not to look at it. We tried a number of things last year, but nothing was really clicking for us, so as a last resort I got out SWI A again, and said we needed to dig in & try to make it work. The alternative I gave was cutting back elsewhere so we could afford to buy something else. They reluctantly sat down to work through it.... and loved it.:svengo: Now they're asking to do it every day, even those days when they were full of a cold and trying every ruse they could think of to get out of other subjects. Edited to add: TWSS is very good, but if its the style that your DD doesn't like in SWI A, than she probably wouldn't like TWSS style teaching either. On the other hand if its just the watching DVDs, or the particular topics used for the assignments, that she dislikes, then it could work well. This is good to know. We really got hung up on the key word outlines(yes, I know that is the beginning of the program). My daughter started to hate them and didn't want to do them after the first few, I didn't know enough about the program, to know if I could let her move on, so I pushed her to keep doing them and then everything went down hill from there. Could we have just moved on? I like the SWB method of outlining much better than key word outlines, but I don't know if the key word outline is integral to the whole program. Maybe I do need to just get TWSS... Edited January 9, 2011 by Roxy Roller Adding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Roller Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 I think it's very important to understand what's taught in TWSS in order to successfully use SWI. Understanding the why's, not just the what's, may well help you with the follow-through and support your kids need from you with any writing program. I am starting to see that trying to use SWI without TWSS, was probably a mistake. I bought SWI at a convention and the salesperson said that I didn't need TWSS to teach it, so I didn't really look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Roller Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 I wound up buying TWSS because I was in a very similar situation as the original poster. I don't really care for the program, but it is helping me teach writing. The nice thing is that it is formulaic. It requires the student to improve on their writing. After my ds did a co-op class using it, I found some dress ups naturally moving into his summaries. I have found it to be the best program that teaches me to teach my children. Like I said before, I don't really care for it - the TM is just notes and I'm not a DVD for the teacher lover, but it really gets the job done. I can get past all that for the sake of making writing instruction easier.Beth This is good to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Roller Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 If I was to try again, should I try TWSS with SWI B? Does it move along at a quicker pace? My DD is in 6th grade. Can I replace SWB's method of outlining for the key word outlining? My other resistance to IEW, has been that I have read posts from people saying that most kids that come out of IEW programs all 'sound' the same in the writing. Is this true? I don't want my DC's writing voice to sound like everyone else, but maybe we have to start somewhere and then move onto developing their own style independent of IEW, later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testimony Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 This is good to know. We really got hung up on the key word outlines(yes, I know that is the beginning of the program). My daughter started to hate them and didn't want to do them after the first few, I didn't know enough about the program, to know if I could let her move on, so I pushed her to keep doing them and then everything went down hill from there. Could we have just moved on? I like the SWB method of outlining much better than key word outlines, but I don't know if the key word outline is integral to the whole program. Maybe I do need to just get TWSS... Can you tell me what is SWB's method of outlining as opposed to the key word outline? By the way, my son is doing SWI B and he is loving it. We just started it. He finds it very easy. He has done keyword outlines from Writing Tales 2 and he did it in Classical Writing Homer to help him summarize. As you can see, I have done writing programs too. I have settled on a writing program and a friend gave us SWI B for free practically. My son liked the DVDs and so he said that he wanted to do it. He has the keyword outline and a summary in like 30 minutes. They are only paragraphs so it is not that difficult, but I'm sure it will pick up. I want to tell you that I settled for Rod and Staff. I notice that you are doing it too. I feel that it is an excellent writing program. My son never learned how to write a paragraph. He know how to summarize stories and keyword outlines, etc. But, he never learned that a paragraph had to be on one topic or how to write a main topic and give supporting sentences for the main topic sentence. He is learning all of that in Rod and Staff. It teaches coherence in a paragraph, Writing Tales and Classical Writing did not teach that in their programs. Maybe SWI does and it will come up, but Rod and Staff has taught my son how to make an outline, write a rough draft, revise, a final draft so far. We are doing both SWI and Rod & Staff. I would only use SWI to get me through the basics. I understand thoroughly what they are trying to teach and it is done so simply and plainly. This is the only IEW program I will use because I truly love Rod and Staff. I love the indepth grammar and then the writing lessons. Tired and true, it is. Blessings in your homeschooling journey! Sincerely, Karen http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Roller Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 Can you tell me what is SWB's method of outlining as opposed to the key word outline? SWB's method is more summarizing the main topic of each paragraph and giving supporting details in complete sentences. I want to tell you that I settled for Rod and Staff. I notice that you are doing it too. I feel that it is an excellent writing program. My son never learned how to write a paragraph. He know how to summarize stories and keyword outlines, etc. But, he never learned that a paragraph had to be on one topic or how to write a main topic and give supporting sentences for the main topic sentence. He is learning all of that in Rod and Staff. It teaches coherence in a paragraph, Writing Tales and Classical Writing did not teach that in their programs. Maybe SWI does and it will come up, but Rod and Staff has taught my son how to make an outline, write a rough draft, revise, a final draft so far. We are doing both SWI and Rod & Staff. I would only use SWI to get me through the basics. I understand thoroughly what they are trying to teach and it is done so simply and plainly. This is the only IEW program I will use because I truly love Rod and Staff. I love the indepth grammar and then the writing lessons. Tired and true, it is. I love Rod and Staff, for grammar. I do not want to give it up, right now we are doing it orally, and it only takes a few minutes a day. I was briefly considering BJU Writing and Grammar, but we are doing fine with R&S. I have not completed the writing portion of R&S, because it always felt sporadic. A kind lady on this board put me on the trail of a writing program that I downloaded last night and I think it is revolutionary - I finally 'get' it. I can't wait to get started with my children. I don't want to speak too soon, but I think my writing program conundrum is finally over - time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauracolumbus Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Roxy, can you share? Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Roller Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 Roxy, can you share?Laura The program is Pattern Based Writing - it is only available in ebook form, but here is a link to an essay about it - http://patternbasedwriting.com/PatternBasedWriting_Student_Writing_Success.pdf?vm=r. I hesitate to recommend any program, because I have found that there is no 'right' program for everyone. We each have to find one that resonates with us as homeschooling parents, and our children. As I have looked through this one, I feel that it fits what I want for writing and I also think that SWB's method of outlining will work beautifully with it, which is what I was exactly what I was looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I can't find any legitimate reviews to pattern based writing. Anyone know of any? They have a lot of websites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) I don't know of any reviews. I bought the curriculum from the author's website, which was the only one up at the time. I looked recently and saw there were several garbage websites that didn't make any sense. PBW is not a scam. I do understand your question because I bought a weak curriculum from a p.s. teacher at the beginning of the year and wasted $35. However, PBW is a solid curriculum. It teaches 19 Patterns, a system of patterns, that take the student from basic topic sentences to basic essays. Here is something the author, Paul Barger, wrote me: "I will say the program does stop at a certain place. The program stops at a place where you can now “teach writing.” There is a lot more to teach about writing after the program finishes. Revising, writing with a purpose, sentences, storytelling, and a variety of tools that students can have in the writing tool belt. I think both you and your child will feel quite confident moving forward once you finish the PBW program. There will be a point where you wonder, “Okay, we are about done, where do we go from here?” Hopefully, when you reach this point your daughter will be thrilled with her writing. At that point, you will move forward with excitement, and without confusion or misunderstandings. “I get it” should be how your child feels about writing. The program is mainly designed so both teacher and student can have a framework to move forward easily with essays, reports, and daily school work. Rubrics, grammar books, writing curriculum, writing supplements… I use a lot of these after the program. I also make it really authentic “reverse engineering” their textbooks, showing how they are organized, as well as creating outlines, previewing chapters… always showing how what they have learned so far is really how most everything they read has been organized", Btw, we've used Bravewriter (Julie helped understand the writing process more than anyone else during our early homeschooling years.), IEW (still using lots of concepts from IEW) and some MCT Paragraph Town (hit the wall at Lesson 8) and have learned from all of them. However, none of them brought dd to independent writing. In fact, she now has a stew of methodologies swirling in her head. We used LTW last year, and it is excellent, but I wanted to find something to work on paragraph construction -- a pre-LTW, if you will -- and PBW was the best that I found for the price. Even though I am sure there are other good resources. We are not through with PBW, so I cannot write a personal review except to say that I spent the entire first semester looking through resources on my shelf, recommendations from this list, and whatever I could find in the internet world, and PBW was easy and logical. The curriculum starts with a timed writing sample and suggests other timed writing at various points for comparison. I don't think dd will be willing to post to her work, but I will certainly share the overall outcome. If you are hesitant, just wait a few months to see how families using PBW are faring. Btw, I have emailed the author with questions, and he responds right away. He is good guy. Willing to help with his product and beyond. I recently wrote him about "One Year Adventure Novel," and he shared the underlying methodology of OYAN and a related website. He's an active teacher/learner. Edited January 11, 2011 by 1Togo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saja1029 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 As a person who struggles with this also, it looks good. But, I hate to buy yet another writing curric. I think I saw that they had a refund policy. If you don't like it they will refund after 8 weeks?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Yes, PBW has a refund policy, but if you have doubts, email the author. Ask him questions about the curriculum and the refund policy. He has replied to all of my emails. Btw, if you buy PBW, you will need to work through at least the first five lessons to see it's full effect. Also, there is so much material in PBW that trying to absorb everything in the beginning can be overwhelming. You might want to preview it, but I would just start with Lesson 1 and do it. Then, go on to Lesson 2. You won't need to do any planning because PBW is written to the student - encouraging and fun. There are plenty of examples to help you and your student understand what is expected. Send me a pm if you have further questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice in NJ Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 But IEW gave me tracks to run on. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98847&highlight=iew We don't use the program any more. Now I just teach writers. It's so awesome to be able to say that I don't need a curriculum any more. I might use one to simplify lesson planning/teaching if I'm short on time, but I don't need one. Have fun! Janice Enjoy your little people Enjoy your journey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testimony Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 But IEW gave me tracks to run on. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98847&highlight=iew We don't use the program any more. Now I just teach writers. It's so awesome to be able to say that I don't need a curriculum any more. I might use one to simplify lesson planning/teaching if I'm short on time, but I don't need one. Have fun! Janice Enjoy your little people Enjoy your journey Great thread Janice! One mom asked what courses from IEW did you use? You never responded. So, I'm asking again, "what courses did you use?" I might look into one or two. Maybe. Blessings in your homeschooling journey! Sincerely, Karen http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) I tried TWSS first. It was good to understand where the author was coming from but to put all of the planning on me didn't work well. We didn't really like the SWIs either, and only finished about half of them. We're using the themed-based lessons this year (specifically US History), and I love them. No DVDs to watch. All lesson plans are there so I don't have to plan anything. I have a teacher's manual that tells me what resource pages (you have to print those) they need for each assignment and what to do during each lesson (ie. read this page, do these exercises, walk them through this part of the outline, A level might need help, B level can do all 3 paragraphs this week, etc.) The kids have a workbook that has all of the directions, all of the grammar rules and practice pages, all of the source texts they need, space for their outlines, space for brainstorming dress ups, and all of their checklists. It makes it a breeze to teach. It's going really well. To answer another question you had...I have a 9 year old and an 11 year old doing the same assignments. The 9 year old is using the A level directions. The 11 year old is using a mixture of A and B level directions. I want them to work on the same assignments at the same time, so if the B level directions require more work in the same time frame, she does those. If the B level directions have her combining lessons, which would get her ahead of her brother, she sticks with the A level directions. While their writing, at this point is similar because they are the same topic from the same source text, there is enough differences, too. There's no question which final draft belongs to which child because of those differences; they haven't lost their voice. As they progress to more complicated reports using multiple sources from the library, I doubt their reports will even be similar at all. Edited January 12, 2011 by joannqn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauracolumbus Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Roxy thanks for sharing. Joannqn, do you think you could have done the history based writing if you hadn't first done the other two programs at least part way? I almost bought the Medieval history program b/c we were studying that period, but was afraid to jump in w/o any IEW background. Thanks, Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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