So what's the point of learning a foreign language?

[RoughCollie]

Until yesterday, I thought that knowing a foreign language is a mark of an educated person.

 

High school students here are required to take 2 years of a foreign language, and colleges generally require that they have done so. When I went to college, 2 courses in a foreign language were required.

 

Last night, DH and I talked about signing the boys up for a yearlong foreign language class next year.

 

We got to talking about the language courses we have taken. I took Spanish and German. DH took Latin, Spanish and German.

 

Did it do us any good at all? No. First, we didn't learn enough to become fluent. Second, and most importantly, if we had, we would not have had anyone to talk with in those languages. The only reason DH wishes he could speak Spanish fluently is that he is a criminal defense attorney and there is a need for attorneys who speak Spanish in that field.

 

We live in the U.S. It's not like living in Europe where there are so many different languages spoken. Everyone here speaks English or, generally speaking, needs to learn it if they are going to make the U.S. their home, IMO.

 

I put forth the idea that learning a language helps with learning grammar. DH pointed out that avid readers of good books generally pick up a lot of grammar that way, plus they take English grammar classes. So learning a foreign language is not necessary for that. (We are all avid readers of good books.)

 

I opined that Latin is a good choice because it helps kids with their vocabulary questions on the SAT.

 

So what is the point of taking a couple of years of language classes in the first place, when the person will never become fluent or have a chance to practice his or her skills with native speakers on a regular basis?

 

Is there any other point, or are we paying for, and our kids putting forth effort and time for, a huge waste of time?

 

I do not count my son who actually wants to learn several foreign languages in this equation. DS wants to learn those languages for the sake of learning them, and I support that 100%. I was asked to change my major to German when I was in college, and I would have if circumstances had not made it impractical, so I do understand where DS is coming from.

 

RC

[pixelroper]

The learning process can be most beneficial. Our studies in Latin include grammar, history, geography, literature, ect. and most foreign language studies include some combination of this. There is also a certain logic to learning a foreign language, this helps some w/understanding their own language better. I studied Spanish, while I never had the opportunity to use it, I'm glad to have studied it, that training has helped w/hs at least.

[Sharon in SC]

I agree. Older dd (15yo) will be in Spanish III next year and Latin II (Wheelock's). I routinely see where the study of these languages helps her with her own (English) in the areas of grammar, vocabulary, etc.

[Michelle in MO]

First of all, there is a sort of "cultural density" among many of us in the U.S.; we are insulated from the rest of the world, and I would contend that studying a foreign language at least broadens our perspective of our place in the world--coupled with a decent study of history, of course. I'm not suggesting that we have to advocate multiculturalism, necessarily---just a broader perspective.

 

Studying a foreign language to the point of at least a decent reading level in that language serves many benefits. To me, the first and foremost is a level of "cultural literacy" that can't be attained in any other way---even, in some cases, by translations. That's not to say we can't read in translation---after all, there's not enough time in 50 lifetimes to study every language available! But, there are certain nuances and subtleties that you pick up only by being able to read some literature in another language. For example, I studied German, and the German word Angst carries a particular connotation that can never be fully appreciated in English. I posted this on another thread, but the Queen of the Night Aria in The Magic Flute has a particular nastiness and evil that can only be fully appreciated in German, rather than the English translation.

 

As far as Latin is concerned, I dearly wish we'd kept up with our Latin studies. I was able to get my girls to finish Henle I, but it was under great duress. (If I get to go back to graduate school, which may happen soon, as I recently took my GRE, I would like to at least continue on with coursework in Latin.) All that aside, Latin is far more important than just getting better scores on the SAT's or ACT's. To me, the great beauty of Latin is that it's so grammatically complex and logical that your students have to be thinking all the time in order to properly translate a Latin sentence. There's no way around that. Latin is an inflected language; English is an analytical language that has substituted word order in order to explain meaning. The inflections in Latin nouns and adjectives, those nefarious Latin verbs---they all help train the child's mind to think, think, think. That, to me, is the number one benefit of studying Latin.

 

There are probably many more reasons, but these are a few that I can think of, off the top of my head. HTH!

[Jenny in Atl]

To me it's another tool that if my kids choice to, they can use to travel, to learn further, to have a better understanding of the world around them. How I wish I had taken my Spanish studies more seriously. You never stop learning, and I am surely taking that to heart these days.

[Jane in NC]

 

We live in the U.S. It's not like living in Europe where there are so many different languages spoken. Everyone here speaks English or, generally speaking, needs to learn it if they are going to make the U.S. their home, IMO.

 

 

I am not sure that this argument holds water in today's market economy--or if the argument ever had validity.

 

One of the major problems that the American foreign service is facing is the lack of people who can speak other languages and/or operate within foreign cultures. Often, a minimal understanding of the language itself opens a window to the culture which one may otherwise not appreciate.

 

Americans seem to have problems learning other languages which I often feel may be connected with the lack of understanding of English grammar. Conversational opportunities may not abound in every setting, although I suspect that we could all find people within our communities who speak a variety of different languages. We have not found an opportunity to speak French (and, trust me, I speak the language very badly) but my son thinks he may want to be a Medieval Historian. He has to learn Latin and French to achieve that goal. This year (French II) we focus on grammar, reading and listening skills. I hope that he is able to travel abroad to compensate for the lack of conversation. In the mean time, I realize that he is understanding some French puns--this is something that a person using Babel Fish is not going to do.

 

Further, many universities are realizing that Americans are at a competitive disadvantage in their monolingual state. (The old joke goes that a person who speaks three languages is trilingual, a person who speaks two is bilingual, a person who speaks one is an American.) A number of univerisities are not only increasing the language requirement for applying students, but also requiring languages for graduation.

 

Obviously, two years of high school foreign language does not bring about fluency or we would be a bilingual nation now. I know loads of kids who have taken two or three years of high school Spanish but can only read a menu. Is there something wrong with language instruction in our schools? I know that in this country Spanish is spoken in many dialects which makes the jump from the classroom to common usage a challenge.

 

I sometimes wonder if the American aversion to foreign languages is tied to our immigrant past. In many families who came to the US in the 19th and early 20th centuries, the emphasis was on embracing English and leaving native languages on Ellis Island. Many seniors have confided to me that they now wished they had passed on the language that they spoke as children. The melting pot image prevented them from sharing this heritage which is too bad.

 

We do Latin and French. My husband was a German minor in college. I had two years of German in college, Latin in high school. I buy into the idea that one has a better understanding of grammar by studying foreign language.

 

Jane

[Sharon in SC]

The inflections in Latin nouns and adjectives, those nefarious Latin verbs---they all help train the child's mind to think, think, think. That, to me, is the number one benefit of studying Latin.

 

 

:iagree:

[Sharon in SC]

Further, many universities are realizing that Americans are at a competitive disadvantage in their monolingual state.... A number of univerisities are not only increasing the language requirement for applying students, but also requiring languages for graduation.

 

 

As I mapped out dds four years of high school this last month (studying various universities requirements for admission), I found this to be true. Respected colleges encouraged not just two but sometimes 3 or even 4 years of foreign language study in the high school years.

[pixelroper]

Americans seem to have problems learning other languages which I often feel may be connected with the lack of understanding of English grammar.

 

I've noticed this too.

 

I sometimes wonder if the American aversion to foreign languages is tied to our immigrant past.

 

While maybe not an aversion, this is my family, I'm 3rd generation native born, the original family members who immigrated forbid use of their native language. I know a smattering of greetings and cuss words that I managed to pick up. I asked repeatedly to be taught and they refused. I got the 'You are an American' speech frequently. They felt we didn't have any need for it.

[Caroline]

I think learning a foreign language stretches your mind in a way that it might not otherwise be stretched. It requires different study skills than other things you need to learn.

 

We live in a global economy. My husband, on a daily basis, deals with people from Germany, France, Japan, India, and England. As a public school teacher in an urban setting, I deal with people every day who speak many different languages. (mostly Spanish, but also Portuguese, French, German, and all sorts of Asian languages) My high school French is rusty at best, but I can communicate and I can also understand some Spanish because of it.

[KAR120C]

I'll list... :)

 

1. Just from a practical standpoint as a "mark of an educated person", I think it really does make a difference in college admissions... first to meet the requirements and second to indicate that your education was "rigorous" (whether it really means that or not, it gives that impression)

 

2. Improving your English -- it is only when I learned other languages that English made logical sense to me... if it's the only language you know then the structure of it is just "there" and not really something you necessarily think about in logical terms. Comparing it to a dissimilar language shows more of the structure of our own language than just our native fluency does. And I mean that in terms of not just grammar, but also phonics and sound... and of course the word root thing too. As much as people say there are more exceptions to the English spelling rules than there are words that follow those rules, if you know where all the words come from you realize that there is a lot more regularity than appears at first glance. It's just not all from the same language.

 

3. Even if you're not fluent, knowing a little of a couple languages is an excellent thing when you travel. That's our major reason for language study in our family (because we do travel!) -- you don't have to be fluent to get by, and to make a good impression with the locals. My high school French is unbelievably rusty, but it's good enough to pass as "cute" when I'm stumbling through checking into a hotel. And if you can stumble through that, you can stay at the more interesting (cheap) places where they really don't speak English at all, and not just the Novotel or whatever that hires multilingual staff.

 

4. I think there's a certain sense of ease you get from knowing that you can learn another language. I found my first foreign language difficult, my second much easier and my third a breeze. I'm not fluent in any of them, but I don't panic any more. I know that given time and effort I could pick up just about any language. I know what I want to start with when I'm looking at a new language, and what I can skip for now. DH travels for work, and to the most unusual places... He's in Ethiopia right now. He doesn't speak Amharic (!?) but he knows enough about languages in general that he can pick up the bits and pieces he needs very quickly. There's a chance he'll be going to Nepal soon, and it's the same thing -- no way he would have happened to have learned Nepali just on spec, but knowing that he can pick up the necessary phrases makes it just that much easier to deal with a multitude of languages.

 

5. You might be surprised at how many native speakers you can turn up in some areas... We have lots of native Spanish speakers around here, and the universities nearby have a lot of foreign students from different places. And people I've met seem to be almost-universally thrilled to find someone who wants to try to speak their language, even very very badly (LOL)

[Robin Hood]

I lived in Mexico for a year when I was in my early 30's. I learned the language through total immersion. I got to the point where I was beginning to think in Spanish. That was 20 years ago and I have forgotten a lot, but it has served me well. I can still communicate with Latino speaking people and it is an absolute blast to be around them when they have no idea that I can understand them. I can be a fly on the wall. Besides that, it is literally like opening a door into another world while at the same time, enlarging your own.

 

My kids love to listen me speak to Mexicans even though I am now throroughly butchering their language. Now, for starters ~ 1. My knowledge has increased my dds desire to know more. 2. Latin is not that hard for me to teach now that I have I have basic Spanish. 3. I can even read some French.

 

My desire is to get my family to Mexico some day for a total immersion of their own. It is wonderful. I'll think of more reasons later.

 

One of the girls that aided our class of 7 was prejudice towards Americans. After getting to know us and in the process, learning some English, she said her prejudice was due to ignorance of our language. There was a natural fear barrier of what is unknown.

 

None of it is nessesary, but it is worth it. I would much rather go with total immersion than classroom or bookwork. It is so easy. My dh will never go for it though. It will remain a dream most likely.

 

I went the total immersion route, not language alone, and that might make a big difference. It is a possitive way to rid oneself of prejudice that one is unaware of. But that is another topic.

[JFSinIL]

My son has taken two years of high school Spanish, and refuses to take any more. He gets "A"s in it - just doesn't like it.

 

My daughter, entering high school next year, was accepted into a high school academy that covers six years of language in four years. She will take Spanish (Japanese, the other option, looked too hard!!!) She will be able to ask "Do you want fries with that?" in Spanish, which is very useful where we live (growing Hispanic population). OK - she wants to do interior design, and can help Hispanic clients. Or travel to S. America. Whatever.

 

I never learned real grammar until I took Spanish in 7-9th grade.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

I don't think learning second language is a waste of time at all. It connects you to the rest of the human race.

When we study another language we learn so much about our own by making connections to origins and meanings. We stretch our imaginations and our ability to think logically. We learn about the beauty, musicality, and even harshness of words.

 

When the Italian throws open his window after a rainfall is over and shouts "Bella Sole!" you can feel the passion

in those words. How many Americans would open their windows and shout "Beautiful Sun!" ?

 

The problem with learning a foreign language in our country is we often don't have the context for the words we are learning. Listening to music and watching movies in the language is very helpful. I recently heard that as an explanation for one of the reasons so many Europeans speak English so well, they watch American movies in English with subtitles in their own languages.

[dangermom]

Many good points have already been made, so I'm only going to comment on this one:

I put forth the idea that learning a language helps with learning grammar. DH pointed out that avid readers of good books generally pick up a lot of grammar that way, plus they take English grammar classes. So learning a foreign language is not necessary for that. (We are all avid readers of good books.)

I read a lot as a kid--a whole lot. It's true that I absorbed grammar that way, but only by instinct; I still don't know much grammar, not properly. But when I studied other languages, I learned all the grammar I do know! Those languages were tremendously helpful to me in understanding my own language. Also they are fun.

 

(I studied Spanish in high school--very badly--learned Danish to fluency, and studied German and Russian in college.)

 

There's also the fact that if you learn another language to the point of being fluent in it, you learn to think another way. It's quite a revelation to find out that people not only speak differently, they think differently. I don't think that's something you can understand until it happens to you.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

enriches my life immensely. I learned things in China that I could never have learned otherwise. People sought me out on the street to tell their story because there were so few non Chinese that they could speak directly. It was such a gift. Being able to trade stories about kids with Spanish speaking moms has been such a treat. It's something that I really want my kids to be able to experience.

 

It is also a huge asset in the job market. My career flourished because of my Chinese language skills.

 

And I do think it's one of the marks of a well rounded education - the same as some knowledge of great literature etc

[mommaduck]

I do believe that it will be helpful for our young people to be multilingual. But that will be the key difference between just "taking a course" and actually learning another language. Most countries are multilingual. In Europe, it is not uncommon to know 3+ languages. In Africa, at least 2. We are dealing with a more global economy now and people here are losing jobs. One of the things that makes a person marketable is the ability to speak a second and third language.

[...................]

two questions here...

 

A. What's the point of dabbling in a foreign language and never really becoming completely fluent...

 

1. You have to start somewhere

2. Your student comes to understand how to learn another language and then can do so in earnest much more easily

3. You never know if your dc have a gift unless you try...

 

Meaning it can only help towards the goal of B..

 

B. What's the point of actually really learning and becoming fluent in A FL>

1. Better job offers

2. More money at most jobs

3. Helping teach foreign person to read

4. Helping foreign person in any way (in checkout line, at grocery store)

5. Reading literature from the language!!!!

6. More culture

7. Ability to teach it- make money tutoring, teaching school, etc.

8. Can get a part time translator job -millions out there

 

I could go on and on, but I think you were more asking about A.

[jeri]

First, I'm biased because I know or have studied (dabbled in) 5 languages in addition to English! When we, as Americans, travel, we automatically encounter people who speak English everywhere we go. But we seldom speak anyone else's language, which only reinforces the belief that American are stuck up and couldn't be bothered with other languages. I know that the more languages one learns, the easier it is to learn the next one. And it really opens up one's world with others to show that one makes the effort to speak and understand!

 

I have been mistaken for a native-born Swede, helped a Chinese sailor find his ship in VA, translated for a French tourist in a shop, taught classes in Spanish in Latin America, traveled through northern China alone on a train in 1991, spent a month in Ukraine adopting my dd in 2005--all with the ability to get by almost solely in a foreign language. But not only did knowing other languages make my life easier, but people have been so appreciative with my efforts!

 

Just the other day I was at a hair care supply store and I asked the name of the woman who so graciously helped me. She answered, with an American accent, Marisol. Well, I know how this name is pronounced in Spanish so I answered back, "Marisol, que linda!" (Sea-and-sun, how beautiful!) and she gave me this huge smile back and said thank you in spanish. And isn't that what communication is all about--caring about others?

 

Best wishes for a language adventure!

 

jeri

[Cindyg]

I think it's part of being an educated person. It's part of administering a high-quality school.

 

I'd rather risk hearing my son say 20 years from now, "Boy, studying Latin (cursive, math facts, Spanish, logic, piano, typing, calculus, etc.) was a waste of time and effort," than risk hearing him say 20 years from now, "Boy, I wish I had gone to a 'real' school where I would have had a chance to study Latin (cursive, math facts, Spanish, logic, piano, typing, calculus, etc.)

[PariSarah]

Now, I think that what you studied helped you in invisible ways, in the same way that studying math/science when you're a theologian, or reading philosophy when you're an engineer, or playing chess when you're an artist, helps you. Forcing your mind to function in a way that is not natural to it does something to your mind--gives it a certain elasticity that it wouldn't otherwise have.

 

So I don't think it's true at all that you haven't used or benefited from your studies at all.

 

BUT, I understand what you're saying about it seeming like a waste of time.

 

In addition to all the other good things that people have said, I would say that learning a foreign language--any language, even one you don't end up using--makes it possible for you to learn languages. First of all, even if you never became fluent in your language, it builds those pathways so that you *could* someday, if you were ever immersed. That was my experience moving to France. I had studied in high school and college, but my first few weeks (months?), I was a disaster--I couldn't say a THING. But I became more fluent more quickly than other trailing spouses, because I had a foundation.

 

Second of all, it builds more general "language-learning" pathways so that you can pick up other foreign languages, down the road, more easily than you could if you were first encountering them then. So, having learned French made it much easier to learn Greek, because my brain was already used to mental work it takes to memorize vocab, understand different grammatical structures, etc.

 

As far as your confidence that your kids "will never become fluent," well, you just never know. I REALLY didn't think I'd use French. I just liked it. But dh got his job in Paris primarily because they had to have an American, and so few Americans are comfortable in French. Your kids may end up using it some day, even if they don't become fluent under your roof. You just never know.

[Heather in Neverland]

I agree with all the other posters but would like to add one more personal reason for learning a foreign language. In our family it is also about the Great Commission and it is a lot easier to talk to someone about Jesus if you can speak their language. I have a major in Spanish and where I live there are A LOT of spanish-speaking people. Knowing their language allows me to bridge that gap between us.

 

My ds has been studying Latin and we will be adding Greek this year for a language base and also to help him learn more modern languages later and so he can study the Bible in its original language. We plan to add Hebrew and Spanish soon.

[Ellie]

I sometimes wonder if the American aversion to foreign languages is tied to our immigrant past. In many families who came to the US in the 19th and early 20th centuries, the emphasis was on embracing English and leaving native languages on Ellis Island. Many seniors have confided to me that they now wished they had passed on the language that they spoke as children. The melting pot image prevented them from sharing this heritage which is too bad.

 

And I wonder if the emphasis on learning a foreign language has more to do with left over class attitudes from our European ancestors, many of whom needed to know more than their own because there were so many different languages around them; wealthy people had the time to learn other languages and actually used them because they were able to travel, while the lower classes rarely left their own villages and so had no need to learn other languages.

[CLHCO]

I took Spanish in high school and despite the fact that my mother is Hispanic and fluent in it, I still don't know it. You don't really learn a language unless you have an opportunity to use it. My mom just never did unless she was speaking with her mother.

 

We are in an area with a fairly large Hispanic community but even that isn't enough. Unless you are going to use it more than once a year for a few common and passing phrases, you lose it.

 

I took French in college but that was because I was a vocal music major. To this day I still have a far easier time with German, Latin, or Italian pronunciations than French.

 

My brother tried many times to learn Japanese. His wife is from Japan. When he got a job there he studied more diligently but it wasn't until he lived there a few months that he really got it. I think it is like many things in education, you can get a basic taste for it and I do believe in exposure to a wide variety, but unless you're self motivated for a reason, it won't really stick.

 

For the same reasons you mentioned, we've chosen Latin and/or Greek for our girls. I figured Latin has greater opportunity to be used in many different areas. The same is true with Greek.

[kokotg]

I don't know how useful taking a couple years of a second language and then forgetting it all is, but I do think it's immensely useful to study a language long enough that you DO remember it. I took 6 years of Spanish in middle school and high school and then another year or so in college, and, while I'm certainly not fluent, I can still get around okay in Spanish. I'll toss out one more reason in addition to those already mentioned...when I was in grad school (an English ph.D. program) everyone was required to pass a translation test in 2 foreign languages as a requirement of the program--a common requirement in humanities programs (in fact, some professors complained that we were getting off too easy and should need THREE languages). I passed the Spanish no problem, but would have had to do a crash course in French or something had I stayed in the program. I took a year of Russian in college, but didn't learn nearly enough to pass the translation test. I would have been in big trouble if I hadn't had even the one language. So just something to think about...since you can't know what your kids are going to wind up doing as a career, it's good to keep as many possibilities open to them as you can. ...although someone who had researched it recently told me that no recent presidents have been fluent in a language other than English, and, of the current candidates, only Barack Obama is (and that only because he spent part of his childhood in Indonesia). I think it's kind of a shameful fact, but it does go to show you can make it pretty far without a second language ;)

[KAR120C]

And I wonder if the emphasis on learning a foreign language has more to do with left over class attitudes from our European ancestors, many of whom needed to know more than their own because there were so many different languages around them; wealthy people had the time to learn other languages and actually used them because they were able to travel, while the lower classes rarely left their own villages and so had no need to learn other languages.

I would have to counter that in both sides of our family the European ancestors spoke a bunch of languages because they were cattle thieves of no fixed address (not quite welcome in many of the places where they had previously resided... ;)) And more recent generations speak several languages because they were either soldiers or refugees.

 

I do think that our educational system is modeled on one that primarily served the wealthy in the past (since poorer people frequently didn't have any formal education outside of the home), and that foreign language is one of the things they have in common. But then if you were growing up as a peasant in a village, you might not have any formal education beyond religion and taking on your parents' occupations. No reading, writing or math even. I wouldn't count it as a left over class attitude though -- just a different world now than they had back then.

[RoughCollie]

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. I really appreciated having your points of view to mull over.

 

My kids will take at least 2 years of a foreign language in high school, because it is required by the state and by colleges.

 

Of the two boys I am homeschooling, I've got one who has had a year of Spanish and absolutely hates the thought of learning any foreign language. The other one wants to learn either Italian or Japanese, but he's enamored with the end result, not with the process.

 

I am going to make sure they get their solid two years in, and if either wants to continue learning the language they have chosen, I will make sure they have the resources to do that.

 

I still think it is unnecessary, though, for these two boys. I have one DS who will be taking Spanish at PS next year, and German at home because he likes learning languages and has an affinity for it. In his case, I do not think it is unnecessary, because he enjoys it so much.

 

RC

[Trivium Academy]

I don't want to get into a large discussion about this but first and foremost, we are citizens of the world, not just the U.S. and not teaching a foreign language (other cultures, religions, etc.) promotes an unhealthy worldview. There are many academic benefits for learning a foreign language and even career advantages but in my humble opinion (even if not stated so humbly) it is a larger part of developing character and a balanced worldview in our children.

 

I will leave religion out of this although I also have faith-based reasons for foreign language. The only instance that I feel foreign language study is a waste of time is when it is not done with the focus of mastery. What is the point if you will not learn to speak, read and write fluently in another language?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolingualism

[RoughCollie]

Exactly, and that is the situation with two of my DS. It will take them a lot longer than high school to master a language, and it would surprise me if either of them decided to become fluent in another language. They will be given the opportunity, though.

 

The only instance that I feel foreign language study is a waste of time is when it is not done with the focus of mastery. What is the point if you will not learn to speak, read and write fluently in another language?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolingualism

[Old Dominion Heather]

I asked repeatedly to be taught and they refused. I got the 'You are an American' speech frequently. They felt we didn't have any need for it.

 

My fil is the same way. He is Hispanic and his grandparents only spoke Spanish, but his mom refused to teach him to speak Spanish and he still doesn't. Very sad.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

I've learned from all the languages I've studied - and I wouldn't say that I'm fluent in any of them. Once you reach the point of being able to carry on a conversation with a native speaker, you benefit.

 

Being able to read newspapers, no matter how badly, gives me insight that I wouldn't have had before.

 

I agree that mastery ideally should be the goal but I'd hate to see such a high goal being used as a reason not to begin.

[Trivium Academy]

How long it takes depends on what type of learning situation you provide. A tutor who is fluent will provide faster results, in four years time- they could be reading, speaking and writing in any foreign language you start now. Consistency, dedication and opportunities to use the language they are learning are key components. 4 years is enough time. There are many helps and programs out there that do not take long.

[Trivium Academy]

All I mean is that learning a foreign language should not be a novelty. In fact, I believe it should be an educational standard from the beginning, in elementary.

[CLHCO]

The only instance that I feel foreign language study is a waste of time is when it is not done with the focus of mastery. What is the point if you will not learn to speak, read and write fluently in another language?

 

 

 

I hope this doesn't sound snarky because I'm really just playing a bit of devil's advocate here.

 

It takes years to get fluent in a language in a classroom and only a couple months if you are immersed to speak it. More is needed, obviously, for basic grammatical learning, though that too goes much faster if you speak it already through immersion.

 

There are so many mandatory things on the plates of my children that they must learn, and sometimes it would be nice to get some of the arguments against it too and make sure any new "mandatory" is really worth it. There are many things that are good to learn for a variety of reasons because we "might" need it someday or it will enrich our lives. My argument isn't that it's not good. The question is whether it's always beneficial enough to justify the number of years if you do not have an intent in mind. When such things are placed as mandatory for 2 years, I feel they're a bit hollow and become a waste of time for most precisely because of what you listed above.

 

For my children Spanish may be an option for some possible mission trips to Mexico through our church. In that situation they will pursue the language prior to going as long as possible, and while it's still in their head (not a decade later), they then go and utilize what they learned directly, becoming more fluent in a portion of the time due to the chance to use it.

 

Latin will have direct help in the areas of their interest of study but even with Latin I don't find it mandatory for anyone. It has a purpose for the direction we personally are heading.

 

As for snobbish Americans mentioned above, some are. Some French are too, so I hear. ;) My husband is sure Jane Austen's characters are nothing but snobbish wastes of oxygen. Sometimes the way we're perceived is from a handful of the snobs people run across and we can't always do something about that by making one more sweeping requirement.

 

Most Americans will live most of their lives speaking only English due to their environment. 2 years of high school German will not help them if they go to Germany one day when they're in their 50s. They still won't speak it and will be looked down on because of that. Again, there are exceptions but I don't feel we should make sweeping requirements for the exceptions. I can see some use in very basic Spanish in this area. That may be a different argument depending on where you live but it's for a purpose, not just to take some language of some sort for the sake of having a language credit.

[Trivium Academy]

I believe that foreign language study suffers from our culture more so than academic achievement. If you were read about the academic advantages bilingual or multilingual individuals have over individuals with only one language, you would see the reasons to study a language for years continuously. Learning to speak, read and write a language is a lifelong journey, just as it is with our native language. Even with English, we learn in stages, even as adults.

 

If the culture promoted a more global view, it wouldn't seem so foreign to need a second language as an adult. The U.S. culture is too centralized in its focus, the mention of serving in Peace Corps and missions are gone from the general public eye, now the mindset is that "the government (or even worse, rich celebrities) will take care of it" or "Wow, I feel sorry for the people who live there or have to go through that," with no action afterwards.

 

As home educators, everything comes from us. Our attitudes, beliefs, habits, etc. If we teach our children that 2 years of high school foreign language is all they need, say for college, that is all they will work to accomplish. If we model how we are citizens of the world, (children of God), and no person is island onto themselves, then their horizons can be exponentially expanded. It's scary how much responsibility and power we have over these young lives. I'm saddened by those who are born, live their lives and die in the same town, it shows me a person who wasn't taught or allowed to dream.

 

We believe so firmly about this that we are teaching our children French from K-12, with mastery as the goal. We also will not "graduate" our children without the accomplishment of at least one mission trip abroad in addition to the yearly community missions they will be required to do once they are old enough.

[pixelroper]

My fil is the same way. He is Hispanic and his grandparents only spoke Spanish, but his mom refused to teach him to speak Spanish and he still doesn't. Very sad.

 

While they never said anything, I now know there were tremendous (sometimes dangerous) pressures to conform. With that in mind, my father always points out that they were very eager to become Americans--that was the reason they came-- a very real rejection of where they came from is central to the equation. I wish they were still around-- I would love to talk to them about it now.

[CLHCO]

Never mind. I'm editing this post because I can't seem to make what I'm trying to say be clear without sounding feisty and snarky or like I'm attacking you, which I'm not.

 

I value community. I value hard work and character. I value loving your neighbor regardless of their language. Mostly, I value individuality not cookie cutter ideals over a global community, educational standards, or even the well meaning homeschooling establishment. I see value in a good study of language and we are doing Latin and may do Spanish since a mission trip may be of interest to them in the future. It's simply the idea of placing another's values on the back of all I chafe against no matter where it's coming from. My daughter has interest in graphic design. A hard study, the type that would be needed to master a language, will take time away from her goals. A basic study of Latin will give her the background if her current interest changes and she wishes to do something that requires that strong language study - hopefully in a way that will take 3 months being immersed instead of 7 years in a classroom.

 

I would never feel sorry for someone who never leaves her home town if she was a loving, faithful neighbor who was building a strong community. I feel very sorry for anyone who gallivants about the globe being enriched and a good role model yet has no roots or worse yet, no humility. (Not that one can't go global with humility but feeling sorry for the home body doesn't sound like the right direction.)

[nmoira]

We got to talking about the language courses we have taken. I took Spanish and German. DH took Latin, Spanish and German.

 

Did it do us any good at all? No. First, we didn't learn enough to become fluent. Second, and most importantly, if we had, we would not have had anyone to talk with in those languages.

Calculus? Algebra? Latin? Physics? Chemistry? Sociology? How many of these things have you used since high school? Why do we expect kids to learn anything? To open up the world to them and so we don't take options away. If either of my children move to my native Canada, French will greatly help their employment prospects, ditto for Spanish in the US. I want to give them as many options as possible, so when they do decide to start narrowing their focus, they are prepared. With languages though, it's more than this. I'm going to try to say this gently as I can: I don't find Americans in general (I've certainly met exceptions to this) overly curious about other cultures and people's experiences. I don't want my children to grow up with this kind of insular attitude. I also don't want them to view other cultures as novelties (I think many of the more stereotypical multicultural activities in schools do this). Learning other languages is a good place to start.

[Trivium Academy]

How quickly a discussion can turn! When I said, "I'm saddened by those who are born, live their lives and die in the same town, it shows me a person who wasn't taught or allowed to dream."

 

It is the individuals I know that think there is nothing outside the city limits in which they have lived all their lives. I know many men and women who are dedicated individuals in the community, working to make it a better place for those who live there. That is fine, even above fine but my main message was that who knows what our children's potential could be if we don't promote a global view instead of just a centralized one?

 

I don't want to pigeon-hole anyone, esp. my kids. If I sounded condescending, I didn't mean to and I'm sorry. I'm ending this here b/c I feel I've hit a nerve and although this discussion isn't bothering me, I'd rather not get into a debate about the semantics of developing a worldview.

 

We currently live in a small, rural farming area where kids are taught by their parents and grandparents that "this is life, this is how it is going to be and all it will ever be". Not to mention that someone may be relocating to this area and no one knows his name, all they know is that he is Korean and he's the talk of the town. Not for any reason other than the fact he is Korean. I live in a town where people don't have names, they have labels. That's the black side of town, that's where the Indians live, that is the Indian gas station. Yuck, yuck, yuck. It's everywhere, but the last place I want it to be is in my children's hearts and minds.

 

That's all.

[CLHCO]

LOL. I just edited my post because I thought it sounded far more harsh than I meant it to and I realized I probably was seeing your post too harshly. Sorry. You may want to go back and read it again, though it still may not be right. I'm distracted.

 

Personally, I feel it's a bit of a shame when we can't see the value in a community tradition that has the son taking over the family farm or business. People did live that way for thousands of years and I can't say I felt sorry for any of them. There is something of value in knowing your need and place in a society. Perhaps even a comfort in it. That's not as possible today because we place all those carrots out there, turning heads every which way. Many of us on this board do have high goals for our children and that's GREAT. I'm just suggesting this is not where I place the highest value. I don't care if a father raises his son to be a sheep farmer if he teaches him that he should have a duty toward God, his community, and being the best sheep farmer there is. Does that make any sense?

[RoughCollie]

I agree with you. I have not been out of the U.S. during my adult life, and the way things are going financially, I never will be.

 

If I hired a maid, I'd be exposed to Portuguese as most of the foreign people in these parts are from Brazil. I could see learning Portuguese if I were a doctor, for instance, because I would have Portuguese patients. Otherwise, what would be the point?

 

If I lived in Europe, OTOH, going to a country in which another language was spoken would be akin to visiting another state here. That's a whole different ball game.

 

At my age (51), I'd rather take the money earned by working those hours instead of using them to learn a foreign language, and go visit some of the countries I'd like to see. If I became fluent in my favorite language, German, I'd be stuck with no one to speak to. I've met 2 people who are fluent in German in the U.S. in my whole life: My mom and my college professor.

 

Also, if I could do it, I've always wanted to live in a European country for a few years, partially to learn the language fluently. But at my age, that's not going to happen unless I win the lottery and DH agrees, both of which have about the same chances of success.

 

I am not in the least opposed to people learning a foreign language. But it is hard work, and I do think that people who are not interested in becoming fluent in a language should not be forced to take lessons. Those same people can always learn a language another time if they change their minds.

 

In my case, I really wanted to major in German in college. I couldn't -- I had to be able to support myself when I got out. I had a practical reason -- half of my family is German and they don't speak English because they were behind the Iron Curtain while it existed. But the truth is that I just plain enjoyed learning German, and I am good at learning languages.

 

Most Americans will live most of their lives speaking only English due to their environment. 2 years of high school German will not help them if they go to Germany one day when they're in their 50s. They still won't speak it and will be looked down on because of that. Again, there are exceptions but I don't feel we should make sweeping requirements for the exceptions. I can see some use in very basic Spanish in this area. That may be a different argument depending on where you live but it's for a purpose, not just to take some language of some sort for the sake of having a language credit.

[RoughCollie]

I taught algebra at a college and again here in homeschool. I work math and logic problems for fun. I have studied physics and chemistry since I went to college, just because I was curious to learn more. Calculus is one subject I haven't delved further into. I had planned to study it while I was on bedrest for 6 months (pg with triplets), but I was too sick to do anything but lie there. Now I wonder if my brain will still work well enough to continue learning it (and learning it again since it has been so many years).

 

That is my point: I am not taking away options from my children if I do not teach them something. That's how I feel usually, but in reality, if a reasonably intelligent adult is interested in most subjects, s/he can teach it to themselves, IMO.

 

And here's another point: Most reasonably intelligent adults I know do not spend time teaching themselves anything. They work, come home, eat, do chores, take care of their kids, watch t.v., go to bed. In the morning they start the cycle all over again. This certainly was not true when I lived in a large city, but it sure is the case out here in the boring suburbs.

 

I want my children grow up to be intellectually curious adults who know how to teach themselves what they want to learn, because learning can be a very enjoyable, lifelong process.

 

As far as being too insular is concerned, I look at my attitudes that I have hopefully passed down to my children. They have an avid interest in other cultures and countries. Most of their close friends are of other nationalities and races which piques my children's interests. I do think that parents' attitudes and experiences have a lot to do with how a child views other cultures and countries.

 

 

 

Calculus? Algebra? Latin? Physics? Chemistry? Sociology? How many of these things have you used since high school? Why do we expect kids to learn anything? To open up the world to them and so we don't take options away. If either of my children move to my native Canada, French will greatly help their employment prospects, ditto for Spanish in the US. I want to give them as many options as possible, so when they do decide to start narrowing their focus, they are prepared. With languages though, it's more than this. I'm going to try to say this gently as I can: I don't find Americans in general (I've certainly met exceptions to this) overly curious about other cultures and people's experiences. I don't want my children to grow up with this kind of insular attitude. I also don't want them to view other cultures as novelties (I think many of the more stereotypical multicultural activities in schools do this). Learning other languages is a good place to start.

[RoughCollie]

That makes perfect sense to me. There are plenty of people who are content being sheep, and there are plenty who are content being sheep farmers. Who are we to mess with that?

 

I tell my kids that I don't care what they end up doing for a living as long as they enjoy it fully and do the best job they can, and can support themselves doing it.

 

If one wants to be a sheep farmer, fine with me. Just don't expect me to clean up after your sheep for you.

 

We are not all alike. I think it is important to accept people the way they are, even if we do not want to be like them. I don't want to be like most of the people I know, but I still like them just fine. There is nothing wrong with them, per se -- they just have different ideas of what is important than I do.

 

I don't care if a father raises his son to be a sheep farmer if he teaches him that he should have a duty toward God, his community, and being the best sheep farmer there is. Does that make any sense?

[nmoira]

 

And here's another point: Most reasonably intelligent adults I know do not spend time teaching themselves anything. They work, come home, eat, do chores, take care of their kids, watch t.v., go to bed. In the morning they start the cycle all over again. This certainly was not true when I lived in a large city, but it sure is the case out here in the boring suburbs.

The Book of Learning and Forgetting indirectly talks about this phenomena. It posits that the vast majority of what we learn is learned effortlessly and permanently and is dependent on what "clubs" we're in, what company we keep (i.e. apprenticeships, learning on the job, literal clubs, family, etc.). The flip side is that we're more likely not only to forget things we're actively taught, but also to forget them more quickly. I don't buy the whole premise of the book, but there's a lot of food for thought there. I'm not saying that someone who lives in the suburbs is necessarily part of the cycle of which you speak. Physical location is only one club. :)

[RoughCollie]

My suburban town is a club of people who are not like me but who are mostly like each other. I don't know how other suburbs are. It is boring here. When I started homeschooling, the mothers in my neighborhood asked me how I could give up the opportunity to stick the kids in PS so I'd have time for myself -- to go the mall and out to lunch. A lot of time has passed since then. Now they just think I'm a weirdo because we own a lot of books. They tell each other that if anyone needs a book, they should ask me for it because I live in a library. I've been advised by many of the women to get rid of the books because they clutter up our house, even though they are in bookcases.

 

No one needs books here, unless they are assigned for the kids to read in school. That's not a conclusion I've drawn from thin air. Our local library is threatened with being removed from the interlibrary system because it has been underfunded for three years. The schools are going to close the libraries at each school except for the high school, at the end of the year.

 

Surprisingly, this is a middle to upper class town with a "good" PS system and an educated populace.

 

If I could, I'd move back to the city.

 

I remember when DH described the city to me, before we married. He said people walked down the street reading books. I could not imagine how they could do that without falling, but it intrigued me. There was a lot of diversity there, and the people in our neighborhood were well-educated, intellectually curious, exciting to be around. The energy there was incredible. If we finished with books, we'd put them in a paper bag and set them out on the sidewalk, as was the custom. They'd be gone within 5 minutes. There were 3 large bookstores a block away, along with a library. I met lots of people there and every one of them was interesting to talk with and unusual in some neat way.

 

I'd move back in a flash if we could afford to house our family there. The homeschooling environment is different too -- full of intellectually curious kids who are learning all sorts of things. In contrast, some of the co-ops in my area have a physical location at which classes are taught, all sorts of interesting classes. But the teachers can't make the lessons too hard or give much homework to do because most of the kids won't do the work required. Keeping the kids interested in taking classes is important, otherwise the classes would not be offered. It doesn't seem to matter very much whether the kids learn anything. But the class titles and descriptions have to be engaging in order to get the parents to let the kids take the class.

 

I think being in a city gives one broader cultural opportunities on a daily basis, too. I think it makes a big difference if the city is like ours, replete with many, many universities.

 

Environment is a "club" that matters, IMO. Interestingly, I've met many interesting people in the rural areas here, too. To me, this suburb is where the boring congregate. I don't know if they became that way after moving here, to be fair. It would be easier for some to conform than it is for me.

 

 

I'm not saying that someone who lives in the suburbs is necessarily part of the cycle of which you speak. Physical location is only one club. :)

[Trivium Academy]

Geesh, I never said a person dedicating their lives to any type of traditional role or ever setting foot outside of a town was to be looked down upon. I said I was saddened by the people who had never been taught to dream beyond that. Who am I? I'm a stay-at-home, homeschooling mother and wife. I feel like what I was saying went by the wayside by a misunderstanding.

[daisychics]

Geesh, I never said a person dedicating their lives to any type of traditional role or ever setting foot outside of a town was to be looked down upon. I said I was saddened by the people who had never been taught to dream beyond that. Who am I? I'm a stay-at-home, homeschooling mother and wife. I feel like what I was saying went by the wayside by a misunderstanding.

 

I understand what you're trying to say. :grouphug: You want them to know that there's a whole world out there for them to experience and see.

[CLHCO]

Sorry Jessica, looks like we're talking past one another a bit. Writing can be interpreted so many wildly different ways.

[Nestof3]

I don't think it is that important at all to learn a foreign language. I think it is wise to question every possible academic subject -- would you teach it just because it's a standard someone or some group of people came up with or decided was important, or do you feel it is truly important.

 

For me, I see no real importance in it whatsoever unless it serves some purpose.

 

For example:

 

I consider knowing a language to be important if you are going to need to speak it, but not just for the sake of working out the brain -- there are so many other ways to do that.

 

I can also see its usefulness if one wants to read books in a different language. For example, I think it would be great to read the New Testament in Greek, so I could see learning Greek.

 

It is necessary for certain colleges, so that might be a reason to take a foreign language. I do consider this requirement to be unnecessarily limiting, though. In my opinion, it should just be an elective.

 

Those are my opinions, though. Someone else might feel it has a usefulness to them, and that's fine. To consider people not properly educated because they haven't learned a foreign language is, in my opinion, narrow and unfortunate.

 

Just in case anyone thinks I am trying to defend the fact that I never took a foreign language -- I took four years of Spanish in high school and two years of Latin in college.

[Mom4Jesus]

I think it depends what part of the country you live in. We have a large hispanic population in our city and even though I only took highschool spanish as well, I was thrilled a year ago or so when I was at the school district building (submitting our homeschool forms) and a Spanish Speaking couple came in with no English and I was able to hack out enough basic Spanish to interpret for them and they got what they needed. I think it's also supposed to be very good for mental development, especially in little children.