Nan in Mass Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 Can you help me make a list of things to be considered when deciding where this balance point lies for each child? For my family, there is a delicate balance between emphasizing academics so much that the child finishes school "full up", uncurious, unenthusiastic, and deciding never to learn anything in an academic way again; and downplaying academics so much that the child becomes frustrated and is incapable of learning anything at an adult academic level because he doesn't have the skills. Both are a handicap. Fortunately, there are many other ways to expand one's knowledge, but academics are a nice way of doing this, one I want for my children on top of the other ways to learn things. I've been trying for years to get help figuring out this balance and it is only just recently that the board seems to have understood what I was trying to talk about, so I am going to try to get more information out of everyone before the hive moves on to other issues GRIN. I think many people do not have to worry about this. Perhaps their children are less fragile than mine, or more capable than mine, or they have a better understanding of their children, or they have a better understanding of how academics work, or they are better teachers and can manage to teach academic skills nicely enmeshed in content interesting to the child. My family is not like that. I struggle constantly to figure out which skills my children need, how to do skills things myself, how to teach them, what "basic" content consists of, how to learn it myself, how to teach it, and which things I actually need to teach and which things the child needs to teach himself. Obviously, some of this list can be taught, and obviously, we are all trying to teach some of it, since educating a child, even at home, generally is a large part teaching academic skills and content. And obviously, we are all trying to hit a moving target here - a growing, learning child. But student wiring, home environment, community environment, parents' goals for education, and what the student has already accomplished academically all have something to do with how one decides one's general approach from year to year. I just thought that if I had a list to run down, it might help... Maybe it is too complicated to make into a list, but even an incomplete list would help me to see which things I can change, which things I can aim for, which things are immutable, etc. Here are some things I've come up with. Could you add to the list? Correlano? KarenAnne? EsterMaria? Anyone else? So far I have: How willing is the student to work with you, the parent? How willing is the student to be taught by you? How willing is the student to be taught by other people? How willing is the student to teach himself? How willing is the student to work by himself? How willing is the student to work with other people? How much self discipline does the student have? How much natural curiosity does the student have? Is the student particularly interested in one or more academic areas? Do all the student's interests lie outside the academic realm? How long can the student stay still? How long can the student focus on something the student is interested in? How long can the student focus on something he is not interested in? Is the student "wired" in a way that allows him to do academics easily? Is the student frustrated or discouraged when he can't do something well right away? How good is the student at generating interesting questions about a topic? How good is the student at heirarchical structures? How good is the student at logical arguments? How good is the student at fine motor skills? How creative is the student with words? How creative is the student with ideas? Is the student especially talented at something? Is the student driven to develop that talent? How about the rest of the family? Where do they lie in this list? How about you? Are you especially good at academics yourself? How patient are you? How willing and able to teach? How much time to you yourself have to devote to academics? What other commitments or goals does your family have? Is your family academically oriented? Is your community academically oriented? Are you going to be able to find mentors when your child outgrows your own mentoring? What sorts of academic resources are easily available in your community (like libraries)? -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisabees Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 Nan, I regret having missed some of the board's discussions on this matter. I may not be one who "finally understands" you! But, I struggle with balancing ds17, who is similar to yours, in the sense that non-academic interests are of upmost importance to him. These may not the kind of questions you are looking for, but are the kinds of questions I ask myself. A little more abstract then yours. Don't add them to the consolidated list if I am way off. Does the student appreciate the importance of academics? Does the student need to find academics meaningful? Does the student crave real-world context? Does the student react better to non-text ways of learning? Does the student need adult interaction and encouragement? Does the student need mentors in certain areas? Does the student need peer interaction? What goals are you, the teacher, willing to sacrifice for the student's non-academic passions? What goals/skills are you, the teacher, NOT willing to give up? What are the student's aspirations? Is a selective college necessary to achieve them? How much does the student need to feel like he's a meaningful part of the "real" world? Is the student willing to "play the game" of learning academics? Does the child respect you, the teacher? Does he always challenge you? How strong is the student's time management? How much input does the student need to have in picking curricula or developing his schedule? How many hours per day can the student sustain on academics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted October 18, 2010 Author Share Posted October 18, 2010 I like your list better than mine GRIN. I don't feel so stupid for having asked, now. -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennW in SoCal Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 This is a off the top of my head first impression (mind you it is 7am and I'm nursing a cup of coffee at Starbucks....) It might help to make a list of statements rather than a list of questions. Questions have to be answered, and as you are trying to anwer the big basic question of how to find balance, maybe it would be better to not have to answer dozens of little questions. So I offer you (cue drum roll) JennW's Common Sense Approach to Homeschooling 1. I want my students to be able to read well, read for enjoyment, read for information To that end, I will read aloud from a wide variety of literature. I will assign a wide variety of literature, with a mix of classics and contemporary, more popular material. I will also surround them with all kinds of material to pick up and read for enjoyment, to satisfy their curiosity. 2. I want my students to think about what they read, see, hear and do. To that end I will discuss everything with them. When they are at the brain-stem grunting phase, I won't stop, but will offer my opinions about things and ask them questions, ask them why they think what they do. I will also have them read opinion pieces and will have them study logic. I will have them critique the opinions they hear or read. 3. I want my students to be able to articulate what they think both orally and in writing. To that end they will write. Not a lot, but regularly. Slow and steady, with gentle editing for grammar and punctuation, and rewrites as necessary. Short summaries, essays, research papers, letters to Grandma, letters of application. They will also have opportunities to have to speak in front of others from interviews and activities and outside classes. 4. I want my students to experience the world of grown ups. To that end, I find opportunities for them to volunteer with adult mentors in fields that interest them. It is just as important as academics -- the day needs to offer time for both. It is as important because it allows my kids a chance to shine for someone else, it lets them experience the real world so they know what life is going to be like someday when they are adults. They have more realistic expectations about careers, and by understanding that they become more self motivated to get the education they will need. 5. I want my kids to have a well rounded base of knowledge. To that end I read to them and encourage them to read. We listen to NPR in the car, or to audio books. I watch documentaries and old movies with them. Travel. Visit museums, plays and lectures. Engage the people we meet in discussions, then together we'll talk about what we've seen and heard. We read more about the things that interested us from these activities. To that end I set up school to be a broad overview of the subjects that don't automatically interest them. They are assigned classics, study periods of history or countries they would otherwise ignore. 6. I want my kids to be prepared for whatever they plan to do. To that end I also tailor their schooling. One had high school "lite", the other a more serious, science prep high school. I use college admissions requirements and basic common sense as my guide for what subjects need to be covered. And, hardest of all, to that end I let go of total control. Yes I am still the mom, yes they are (well now only one is) minors, but their success is up to them. They see what the world holds, they interact with and are friends with adults. They have ambitions. They are capable of dealing with consequences, so I let them screw up and fail sometimes. It is the hardest thing watching your 15yo procrastinate in studying for a college math test then getting a bad grade. But it is a lesson he had to learn for himself. (He got an A on the next exam, by the way.) I see education as a combination of skills and knowledge. Skills need regular and consistent practice -- math, writing, thinking. Academic skills need to be mastered and perfected throughout high school. Knowledge, on the other hand, is everywhere and a lifetime isn't enough for learning all their is to know. I am neither a formalist nor an unschooler. Learning is simply a part of life and is not confined to school hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie of KY Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 My kids are younger than yours, so I've not been there, done that, but here are some questions I ask: How much time is too much time to spend on subject x (if not a passion)? What can I cut to allow more time to spend on passions? Is my student UNDERSTANDING the material? Should I supplement with an alternative text, etc. if my student is not getting it with the text I'm using. Is it important to memorize or just know where to find the information? Is this something my student needs to know for real life? Is this subject best taught by me? Will my student learn best by video, reading a text, online, co-op, etc.? Am I frustrating my student and why? Do we still like each other? Should I tell my student that grades exist? If my student is curled up reading about their passion and learning way above grade level, when do I make them stop and do schoolwork that isn't as much fun? How do I balance writing in my math/science student? Is it just busy-work or does it actually have a point? How do I teach my loner social skills? How do I teach organization and time management skills? How do I make my science geek more well-rounded? How do I make my well-rounded child more passionate about something? How much time should be spent with each child? When do I stop teaching and say it is mom-time now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 (edited) How much voice does my child have in her academic life? How much should she have? Do I always know what is best? How much does my child know, or should she know, about schooling systems in general and her historical place in terms of educational forms? If my child becomes aware as she grows that her education puts her at odds with social norms in any one of a number of ways -- say, for instance, that she knows a lot about physics but little about popular television shows or sports -- does it bother her? How do I deal with this? Simply dismissing how everyone else does things is not an option for me personally. What kind of knowledge do I want my child to have that is not covered by traditional academics? One of my reference points is Nel Noddlings' Critical Lessons, because she brings up urgent issues that rarely are addressed in conventional disciplines but which are vital to understanding the larger world. My list may be somewhat different from hers, but how do I weight these concerns in relation to academics? Does this change over time? Is my child, who is extremely bright, aware of the pitfalls of intellectual arrogance and overvaluing academics? Is that same child, who is not neurotypical, aware of her challenges but still convinced of her worth as a human being? How have I presented these issues to her? Have I nurtured a child with a passion for lifelong learning in all its forms, who respects learning in others in all its forms? Does she embrace academic learning (at least some of it) while also recognizing its very real limitations? Added: Did I forget to say how fantastic and thought-provoking everyone's questions and comments are? What a great thread, Nan, getting us to pull back from the details and have a look at the overall picture. It's so easy to get bogged down in the details. Edited October 18, 2010 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 I want my children to recognize when they genuinely need academic help and to ask for that help. This is an essential skill to surviving college. Two of my three children do not understand that asking for help or asking a question does not make you stupid. Unfortunately, years of pretending that you understand and sliding by is a frustrating road to nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 (edited) What are my overall goals in educating my children? Within that list of goals, what are my priorities (instilling a love of learning, getting into a selective college, helping him find his passion, teaching him to function in society, etc)? Does my student share my goals? Do we have the same priorities? How can we resolve any differences in goals/priorities in a way that gives the student a voice while acknowledging that I (the parent) may have a better understanding of the world, and the long-term consequences of certain decisions. What subjects are required by the state for graduation, or by potential colleges for admission? What additional subjects or topics do I (the parent) consider necessary to cover? What subjects or topics does the student dislike or consider unnecessary? What is the minimum level of coverage I would accept for each of those subjects? What is the best way to present those subjects, to ensure the minimum is covered (videos, textbooks, outside class, informal study, etc)? Would the student prefer to tie the weaker/unloved subjects to areas of interest, in order to make them more appealing, or just do them in a minimal git-er-done way, to allow more time for passions? What subjects/topics/passions does the student want to spend time on? How can I make sure the student has enough time to spend on his own interests and passions, while meeting the minimum standards I require in other subjects? What skills do I (the parent) consider necessary? What are the student's strengths and weaknesses regarding each of those skills? Which skills does the student dislike practicing or consider unnecessary? What is the minimum level of practice or competence I would accept for each of those skills? For each required skill, would it be better to teach it as part of the student’s favorite subjects, or to use one of the unloved subjects as a skill-subject? Jackie Edited October 18, 2010 by Corraleno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 How well does my student listen? and does he know when not to listen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 Nan, I have to ask because while these are questions worthy of time and consideration, what are you going to do with all of them? They are making my hands shake and my head hurt. You can not carry these up the tree with you, Nan as there is at least 1000 lbs worth of planning, worrying, researching, worrying, and snapping at the kid because you are worrying here. Ugh! I owe dd an hour of walking for every cup of coffee I drink. It's making thinking and writing darn near impossible. When I am thinking that I need to improve the quality of my life, I can make lists that look like this, and then I can crawl back into bed overwhelmed and exhausted, only to repeat the formula a few months down the line. Maybe you don't think like this and you need to see every possible skill laid out in front of you. I don't know. I do know that I finally quit making those lists and had to settle for naming the 5 most important things in my life: relationships, health, personal enlightenment, financial security, and my home. If I make one positive step in each of those areas every day over an extended period of time, life tends to be very rewarding. So with your kids, you could break it down into 4 possible areas: character, learning (as in academic and self-fulfillment), life skills (driving, cooking, laundry, financial management), and relationships (family, peers, community). You get the idea, hopefully.:tongue_smilie: Here, the day following this track would have Swimmer Dude honoring a previous commitment to do something with a friend when a better offer comes up, learning how to make a new dish besides macaroni and cheese for dinner, beginning his research report on Darwin (his choice, his obsession), and writing a letter to his grandmother. This, I can handle. Reduce what you want to accomplish down to the absolutely essential core. This keeps you on the path and not running in 50 different directions. It is easier to hold 4-5 basic goals in your head and heart than a multi-page checklist. Opionatedly yours, Lisa:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 Nan, I have to ask because while these are questions worthy of time and consideration, what are you going to do with all of them? They are making my hands shake and my head hurt. I was thinking as I read these responses about what an interesting split there is between overarching philosophical questions and detailed, practical, close-up kinds of questions. Each can have its uses at various points in our up-and-down journeys. Each can be debilitating at other points. You're right, Lisa, that you just can't keep it all in mind all the time. Sometimes you just need to focus on the day, or the week, or even the hour in front of you. Otherwise nothing gets done but a lot of headache-creating. Sounds like this is definitely the point you are living in right now. So just as the curricular and book options are overwhelming because of the amount of choice and decisions involved, so are threads like this one. Everyone's questions and thoughts are valuable and they all relate to what we're doing with our kids. The trick -- and what a dandy it is -- is to put on blinkers and look just at the things that deal with your particular moment. Put the rest on hold. It will keep. One of the questions I liked best from the lists above was, "Do we still like one another?" I think this is so critical, and from what I've read of your posts, you are accomplishing this with both your children in a wonderful, enviable way. You like being with each other. You like talking to and discussing things with one another. You bounce ideas off one another. That is one of the greatest possible outcomes of a home education. As panic-making as it can be to know you have only this last year with your dd as a homeschooler, remember: this is not the end! I would lay quite a bit of money on your continued conversation with both your dd and SwimmerDude as they go about constructing adult lives for themselves. Your comment about the value -- the need -- of asking for help is a great focus for your year. Put on your blinkers; leave the rest for now and continue to do what you are doing so very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 (edited) Deleting. Edited October 19, 2010 by 1Togo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 What a great post! Thanks. Nan, I have to ask because while these are questions worthy of time and consideration, what are you going to do with all of them? They are making my hands shake and my head hurt. You can not carry these up the tree with you, Nan as there is at least 1000 lbs worth of planning, worrying, researching, worrying, and snapping at the kid because you are worrying here. Ugh! I owe dd an hour of walking for every cup of coffee I drink. It's making thinking and writing darn near impossible. When I am thinking that I need to improve the quality of my life, I can make lists that look like this, and then I can crawl back into bed overwhelmed and exhausted, only to repeat the formula a few months down the line. Maybe you don't think like this and you need to see every possible skill laid out in front of you. I don't know. I do know that I finally quit making those lists and had to settle for naming the 5 most important things in my life: relationships, health, personal enlightenment, financial security, and my home. If I make one positive step in each of those areas every day over an extended period of time, life tends to be very rewarding. So with your kids, you could break it down into 4 possible areas: character, learning (as in academic and self-fulfillment), life skills (driving, cooking, laundry, financial management), and relationships (family, peers, community). You get the idea, hopefully.:tongue_smilie: Here, the day following this track would have Swimmer Dude honoring a previous commitment to do something with a friend when a better offer comes up, learning how to make a new dish besides macaroni and cheese for dinner, beginning his research report on Darwin (his choice, his obsession), and writing a letter to his grandmother. This, I can handle. Reduce what you want to accomplish down to the absolutely essential core. This keeps you on the path and not running in 50 different directions. It is easier to hold 4-5 basic goals in your head and heart than a multi-page checklist. Opionatedly yours, Lisa:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 Nan, I have to ask because while these are questions worthy of time and consideration, what are you going to do with all of them? ... Reduce what you want to accomplish down to the absolutely essential core. This keeps you on the path and not running in 50 different directions. It is easier to hold 4-5 basic goals in your head and heart than a multi-page checklist. :iagree: A huge list of questions can just lead in circles, and lead to more questions, and you never get anywhere. I would take one question at a time, and work through the implications and consequences of that one question step by step. That way, you're creating a sort of "decision tree," rather than being paralyzed by a million questions, each of which leads to and modifies other questions. I would start with goals and priorities. Make a list of your goals, in order of priority, then have your son list his goals, and compare them. If his top 2 goals are to get into engineering school and contribute to world peace, and yours are being multilingual and reading all the Great Books (just an example, not saying these apply to your family), then you'll need a lot more discussion and compromise than if you both have the same "top 3" goals. Then make a list of all the subjects and skills he needs to cover to meet each of those goals, and go through them one at a time: STEP1: Start with the most important subject/skill you need to meet your, or your son's, #1 goal. Is it a strong/favored one or a weak/disliked one? If it's a strong one, go to Step 3. If it's a weak/disliked one, go to Step 2. STEP 2: If its a subject, does he want to just get it over with, approach it from a different angle (e.g. from the perspective of a subject or activity he likes), or use it as a skill subject in order to kill 2 birds with one stone? If it's a skill, does he want to use one of his favorite subjects to practice it, or would he rather combine it with something he doesn't like, to avoid "ruining" his favorite subject? Once you decide that, go to Step 3. STEP 3: What's the best format for this subject? Textbooks, living books, documentaries, hands-on activities, real-life experience, outside class? STEP 4: Can you teach it yourself? If not, can he teach himself, or do you need an outside class? Once you've made those decisions with the first subject or skill that meets the top goal, write it down, and decide how many hours/wk each year (and how many years) that subject needs to be studied or that skill needs to be practiced. Put that first on the schedule. Then go back and do the next subject/skill that's necessary to reach the top goal. When you've listed all the subjects and skills necessary to meet your (and your son's) primary goal, look at the next goal on the list and start with the most important subject/skill/activity for that goal. Lather, rinse, repeat, until your schedule is full. Once the schedule is full, go over it and decide if anything critical got left out. If it did, what can you give up to fit it in? Or can you compress the other subjects a bit to allow more free time to fit all the "other stuff" in? Most importantly, before you start any of this, make a sign and post it over your desk: NO ONE CAN DO IT ALL. Let go of the idea that there's one program that leads to a perfect, complete education and that if you don't do everything on everyone else's list then you have failed your kids. The best education is defined as the best education for your child, not the other way around. Don't look at someone else's schedule and think "Oh, their kid is doing differential equations and translating Vergil and publishing papers in Science at the age of 16, so my kid must be a total failure because all he does is travel all over the world and know how to sail and blah blah blah...." Remember that there are people here who look at what your kids are doing and feel like they're not doing enough of those things. ;) :grouphug: Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 I. Concerns regarding health Are my children as physically healthy as they can be? Is their diet balanced and healthy? Am I keeping an eye on Giuditta's tendency to "forget" to eat? Is Eva staying away from refined sugars and other foods which often trigger certain attention and mood issues for her? Is there anything, on a purely physical level, that might cause problems with learning - or that might help better learning? Is there enough light in the house? Are children getting out of the house enough? Getting some form of exercise? Sleeping enough during the night? Drinking enough water? Working in the atmosphere where they aren't distracted? Emotional health. Are my children calm, feeling good with themselves and life? Is my home an emotionally healthy place to find oneself in? Is the atmosphere of my home conductive to learning? Do my children feel relaxed with me, their father and each other? Are there "positive vibes" in the home? Do we laugh enough? Do we try to dissolve the tensions in the air when those happen? Are my children exposed to diversity of personae in their lives? Do we take some time off enough, do we travel enough, do we allow enough down time and time for things to settle? II. Cocerns regarding attitude towards learning The one who is bashful [to ask] cannot learn; the one who is [overly] strict cannot teach. We have this one written all over the place. ;) Do we remember this during our study sessions? Are my children learning in the atmosphere in which they can ask questions? Am I encouraging good questions, am I asking them myself; do I come to our learning with an open mind, realizing that my children can also help me understand these things we learn a lot better? Are my children growing to have a healthy attitude towards learning in general? Is our relationship as persons strengthened by our learning together? Do I know how to guide the process without pulling the children by force? Do I know how to correct them without provoking embarrassment, maintaing a good atmosphere for learning? Do I know how to say, you ask well, now ask better; for it to be motivating? Do we know how to deal both with enthusiasm and grey periods? Do my children know how to deal with burnouts which are a normal part of life? Do they learn how to get to know themselves better to cope with it? Do they tie their learning with their growing, in spite of the separation of academics and life? Do they see me and their father learning? Do we talk with them informally about all sorts of things rather than just doing a formal seatwork with them? Do we teach them how to get up again after they fall - because failure is a normal part of life too? Do we know how to take some importance off things, too, and not obsess them? III. Concerns regarding the material itself Does the structure ensure that my children will fulfill the societal expectations with regards to what they should know? Is their structure at the very least the equivalent of the required learning of their peers in both countries? Are they culturally literate? Can they take a text apart? Find its strong and weak points? Express an opinion? Knowing when not to rush to have an opinion in the first place, if they're aware of how little they know of the topic? Can they read a text, without reading into it? Do they understand different types of texts? Can they approach each type on its own terms (not looking into fiction for historical knowledge, for example)? Are they capable of stepping out of their own position? Do we play devil's advocate enough? :D Can they see different sides to a problem? Can they understand possible criteria for picking a side (majority opinion; the prevalence of a law of higher order, etc.)? Can they find downsides to that? Are they aware of the phenomenon of intellectual fads? Of the current fad of relativism? Of the importance of the framework one takes, and how that framework shapes the picture? Are they intellectually strong enough not to fall for authorities a priori, but neither to fall for all kinds of "revolutionist" opinions? Sokal kind of thing - and there's plenty of nonsense published today under that and other agendas. Will they remain immune to that? Do they find a place for their own voice within a school structure? Do we broaden a structure in several fields for them? Are they receiving a kind of comprehensive, organized education, but with enough time to grow stronger in the specific areas of their choice? Are my children well-rounded in origins of things? Do they understand the political, cultural and ideological forces that shaped the world today? Most importantly, are we working to understand those conditions on their own terms? Can my daughters understand the classical antiquity, and mentally separate lexical from semantic equivalents of the concepts that we find both today and then? Do they understand their Bible in Judaic terms? Science in its own terms, and how those came to be today? Do I encourage the approach to each discipline as much "from the inside" as possible? Do they understand the axiomatic nature of things we take for granted, such as classical mathematics? And do they, still, remain immune to all kinds of pseudo-intellectual fads which are based on superficial reading and understanding? Do I make sure they read, but don't read themselves stupid (Schopenhauer :D, no matter how much I normally dislike him)? Do I make sure they learn, but don't learn themselves stupid, life-wise? Do I make sure that learning, especially higher-level learning, must occur in the atmosphere of humanism and certain values (in spite of the torture of moral relativism in the air), for knowledge is a dangerous thing in the hands of the immoral? And do I make sure that, with all the learning that they do, they remain emotionally stable, socially graceful, loving of life and their fellow human beings, appreciative of the other but rooted in their own tradition(s), good people? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted October 18, 2010 Author Share Posted October 18, 2010 I am popping hurridly in and out today, rather than having a chunk of time to sit down and read things from the beginning, and that is probably a good thing, since this way I am reading your post before I read any of the other ones (except Lisabee's). I will read the rest of the lists very carefully LOL and try not to scramble up any trees in a panic. When I posted, I was more pondering the differences between my mother's education and my own and comparing the results (in terms of self-educating as an adult) and comparing that to Ester's and the one she is trying to give her children. Mostly, I was thinking about my mother and me, since we have set out to learn something together, and she is doing some of our literature with us and is (as always) helping with some of the science (by answering my bio questions). Much of what we are doing for homeschool I think is at least mildly interesting and am willing to spend some energy on, but her attitude is much more of a groan as she remembers how she hated studying it in school. I think it is interesting because it wasn't ruined for me in school because I hardly learned anything in school. I can't attribute that to our age difference because she did it when she was my age and I was trying to learn things. I can't tell how much is personality and how much is education. Personality might come into it. The subject we are studying together is one she has been interested in all her life and only had a few classes in, and she is bringing to that the same amount of enthusiasm and energy as I am, if not more. I can see, though, by running a quick eye over the lists, that they might very well send me skyward if I'm not very careful. Especially since this year is getting off to a very rocky start. I have a clear-cut set of educational goals nicely written out that I have been using, so I don't need to worry about that. I really like your daily goals. My father does something like that. I have done something like that (in a smaller way) as a new year's resolution and it worked really well. I will keep it in mind, especially this fall, when so many days it feels like all I have done is damage things through being incompetent rather than actually accomplish things. Does feeding the birds count GRIN? -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 I'm struck all over again, reading these posts, how well each of us seem to know our kids, and how intuitively we seem to sense how to develop and situate purely academic knowledge in relationship to our wider goals for them. Yet it's so very easy to feel that we're continually falling short, doing them a disservice, not doing enough, etc. There's such a huge fear that they will flounder in some way once they're on their own and it will BE OUR FAULT. I wonder what we can do to bolster each other's confidence in what we do with our kids, however unconventional or whatever the balance between academics and other parts of life; and what we can do to bolster our confidence that our kids are not going to be irremediably harmed by learning at home with us, however imperfect and flawed we are. I think we need to accept at some point that even someone who gets the most rigorous and apparently perfect academic education will, looking back as an adult, inevitably see strengths and weaknesses, problems and successes, things they wish had been done differently. This will probably be the case with the individual educational history of every single thoughtful person, no matter how expensive or elite or privileged the education. All of us have different strengths, abilities, and areas of knowledge to offer our kids; all of our kids have wired-in strengths, abilities, and areas of fascination that will throw us off balance or take us by surprise. The continuing dialogue between the two is necessary and useful. One of the benefits of our extended dialogue is -- or should be -- feeling excited by and comfortable with how very many paths there are to wonderful educations, each tailored to our child, our family, our situation, our goals. If anybody figures out how to do that -- let me know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted October 18, 2010 Author Share Posted October 18, 2010 (edited) Yes, but... Normally, I am a fairly laisse faire parent. So were mine. And so were theirs. But we all believe that parenting is mostly a matter of hitting the right balance between extremes. If it were a matter of being extreme, it would be so much easier. But I don't think it is. KarenAnne, the way you could comfort me is to convince me that that balance point is a wide spot, not a tiny spot (moving into 3-D here). I woke up this morning comparing five educations and five results: -My own poor education: willing to self-educate and with the academic skills to do so but lacking much of the basic content -Unschooling (one person I know): willing to self-educate but lacking the academic skills to do so easily so forced to find other means of aquiring knowledge and unable to follow some conventional paths like doctor or engineer because of this lack -My mother's excellent but dry classical education: the academic skills to learn anything she likes but not much curiosity left -Ester's excellent classical education (and that of some of my private schooled friends): academic skills and still curious -Another unschooling example: lots of natural academic skills and still very curious, may take a bit longer to get wherever he wants to go while he fills in whatever foundation is needed but no reason he can't get there fairly easily even so Given a choice of the first three, I would take my own education. Hopefully, that is what I am doing with my children (poor education but with enough academic skills that they aren't handicapped and not totally ruining most subjects by making the child hate them). The last two are out of my reach. So the list I was trying to make was to try to help find the stopping point for each particular person, the point beyond "I'd rather be working on my own projects (playing)" but before "I hate this and never want to see it or use this skill again". I think this is what people mean when they ask on these boards, "Is this rigorous enough?" Obviously, we can't really answer that for other people. One can ask and then average the various answers, or use the answer of a person whose other posts one likes, or use the answer of the person whose child is like one's own, or whose goals match, or whatever, but one can't be sure. I thought that if I looked at considerations, it might help me to find that spot, or help me to see that spot as larger than it is currently looking. Does that make sense? Sometimes I talk in circles. Or go up trees GRIN. -Nan Edited October 18, 2010 by Nan in Mass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 Sometimes I talk in circles. Ich lebe mein leben im wachsenden Ringen, die sich über die Dingen ziehen. Ich werde den letzen vielleicht nicht volbringen, aber versuchen will ich ihn. I live my life in widening circles that reach out across the world. I may not complete this last one but I give myself to it. (Rilke) :) We all try. To the best of our knowledge, abilities, circumstances, and the specifics of our children. :grouphug: And they, after all, are growing into their own individual persons. That doesn't mean that our responsibility isn't enormous, but I think that they will all be able to take that base and fortify it and build on it further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted October 18, 2010 Author Share Posted October 18, 2010 I don't know why anybody even bothers to write poetry with end rhymes in English. I suppose the spot does grow larger as the child grows older. That is a comforting thought. : ) -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 <Sigh> of perfect ease and comfort. There are times on this board where it is similar to experiencing a wild day where late in the afternoon you meet up with a group of long-time girlfriends at a local coffee house. You plop down in the middle of a conversation and relish the uniquely distinctive voices offering insight, comfort, and in this case, some poignant poetry. Thanks Nan for getting the conversation started. Today I feel like pointing Swimmer Dude and his attitude towards the middle school...but I won't. Then I wouldn't have a valid excuse for sitting on my bed in the middle of the afternoon and watching Terry Jones' Barbarians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennW in SoCal Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 Love the quote, Ester Maria. Nan, that balance point is big enough for lots of wiggle room, lots of mistakes and course corrections. It is fascinating and reassuring that you are having these worries after getting 2 of your boys successfully launched. as I'm going through a similar time of fretting over my remaining teen. You'd think we'd be the wise old ladies of the board by now!! Confident and with all the answers. Your boys are going to have the academic skills and intellectual curiosity to keep learning simply because you are their mother. Don't discount the influence of your example. In spite of how incredulous our 15yo boys act about our apparent stupidity, we are still a significant factor in their lives, and all that you do -- asking questions, looking for answers, thinking out loud -- is part of their education, something they will model for the rest of their lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted October 18, 2010 Author Share Posted October 18, 2010 Well, I can't tell you in general, but for myself, Lisa (swimmermom3) just has to mention climbing or up or trees and I remember how that was counter productive. And I find our discussions inspiring. I think I would find them more comforting if I didn't think everyone else's child were so different than mine, and wish at this point in my life that I had more general knowledge so it would be easier to pass it along. I keep reading the boards because in general they inspire me to do better, or at least to do, rather than get tired and give up. -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 I don’t have a list of specific questions, just more of a gut feeling. I didn’t have this issue with my oldest He was surrounded by other teens that did not have the same goals, etc. His view was distorted into believing that what I expected was beyond what should be expected of high school students. He was very vocal about whether he thought something was worthy or unworthy of his time. We had a lot of conflict b/c of my forcing issues that I defined worthy. ;) (I never pushed him into anything I considered burdensome or unduly warranted. I had minimum standards I expected him to reach and they were simply non-negotiable. However, my #s 3&4 are in a different place. They have been exposed to high achieving students. They have witnessed the unique opportunities that exist for these kids. They are also very self-driven and people pleasers on top of that. They never complain about work loads. They simply “do†whatever is asked and then push themselves to do their best and often beyond what is required. I actually find that this a more difficult philosophical place to be.:tongue_smilie: B/c of their personalities, they often take on more than **I** am comfortable with their doing and I have had to put the brakes on their plans more than once. They both have ambitions that are beyond my dh’s and my experience…….dd wants to major in forensic science while discerning whether she wants to pursue medical school.; ds wants to major in astrophysics. While I don’t know how to guide them directly, I do feel the parental need to quell the urge to consume themselves so much with these goals that they forget they are kids and have the world to explore and experience beyond the one they have currently defined. I don't want them to feel cornered in the future by the images they have created now. Yet......I don't want to hinder their achieving their goals.:tongue_smilie: We had a long conversation about this topic this weekend b/c we had joined a debate class which we had originally thought was a club but was actually a class. It was huge amts of work on top of their already very heavy loads. They wanted to persist with it; I saw the balance between academics and life out of kilter. How “un-teacher like†or “un-motherly†is it to discourage our children from a worthy pursuit? I felt like I was living this strange surreal dichotomy where I was pointing out cons that seemed weaker than their pros!! Yet, I know that I can see the bigger picture of the future looking back vs. their view of only looking forward. Some where in the list of worthy pursuits, pleasurable activities with no other goal than the joy they bring has to have a % of allowable time. (FWIW…..it is precisely b/c of all of the above that I posted my discomfort on the college board with the suggestion of high numbers of shadowing hours for pre-med students. I don’t want her to feel like she has to have all the answers now. Nor do I want her to work under the notion of guarantees. I would rather her focus on the season of life she is in right now……high school…..vs. thinking in terms of a guarantee of where she might want to be 6 yrs from now!!) So……balance……what is it and how do we know it? It is unique for each child and I am not sure it has a defined answer. I just know when I feel like it isn’t there. :P Sorry……not much help in the question department. For me….it is just a sense. And right now I'm not even sure if I am going in the right direction in my withdrawing them from debate. :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 Nan, I do think the area of balance is wide rather than narrow. I also think the edges shift, with each child, at different ages. But I do believe it is wide, and as Jenn says, allows for missteps or wavering toward one extreme and then correcting. Having seen burn-out and basically breakdown in my dd last fall during her private school months, I can tell you that the warning signs are loud and clear, even at the time and before retrospect. What complicates matters, I think, is that every child resists -- both things they are not interested in and on occasion simply being taught by a parent -- and each child again is different in what triggers this and to what degree. My dd is a combination of amenability and very, very strong-mindedness in certain areas; I've learned to work with that, learned what pushing accomplishes and what it destroys. I've also learned that my own predilections and priorities are very different from dd's; what I'd love NOW as an education is different than what I probably wanted as a teenager, and what I wanted at both stages is different than what dd wants. If anyone is interested, I've just had a short article accepted for publication on the whole trauma of pulling dd out of private school last fall, and what was interesting about her return to homeschooling. If you PM me and send your regular e-mail I can send you the draft. It may or may not strike any chords that resonant with what we're discussing here, but it gave me a new way of looking at what I'm doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephanier.1765 Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 This is going to be a thread I need to print and read bits at a time. And it's funny/odd that you posted it today because I'm going through a sort of crisis of faith in myself as a homeschooling mom. I feel as if I'm failing him. Not his fault but mine. And while I know that's not completely true because it takes two to reach a point like this it still feels like it's mine because I am the parent. Maybe if I had raised him better he would be doing better. Or maybe because I want him to be better but he thinks all is well. I dunno. Something I'm working through right now. I even blogged today about a part of it because right now I can only focus on parts and not the big picture. It's hurting my brain to think any bigger than the immediate problem. And so, thank you for posting this because I am going to read through it and hopefully find some of the answers to my questions through all your questions and all your answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 One of the benefits of our extended dialogue is -- or should be -- feeling excited by and comfortable with how very many paths there are to wonderful educations, each tailored to our child, our family, our situation, our goals. If anybody figures out how to do that -- let me know! I think all of us get excited by the range of possibilities, and the opportunity to design an education that fits each of our kids as learners and ourselves as teachers. I think what varies is where we fall on the continuum between comfort and terror at the responsibility that entails! And I think where we find ourselves on that continuum has a lot to do with three factors: (1) how "quirky" our kids are in terms of learning abilities and modalities, (2) how compliant/cooperative versus independent/strong-willed their personality is, and (3) whether they have strong passions and a sense of where they want to go academically. I actually think that the first issue is the easiest to deal with, and the third issue the hardest. In my son's case, he's considerably quirky — highly gifted but also dyslexic, visual/spatial, SPD/APD, and ADD, with poor working memory & processing speed plus major anxiety issues. He is not easy to teach! OTOH, he's quite compliant and not consciously resistant (he just cries while doing things he hates, and then promptly forgets it all :tongue_smilie:), and he found his passion(s) when he was about 5. These things make my job much easier. I know where he's going to college (and even where he wants to do his PhD), and I know what the requirements are, so I can work backwards from there. I just need to figure out the best way to teach him the subjects and skills he needs, in a way that matches his abilities and learning style, but I don't have the angst involved in trying to educate a quirky kid who has no idea what he wants to do/study/be when he grows up, and feeling like I have to prepare him for every possible eventuality, and then on top of that, dealing with him fighting me about it. I think all we can really do is try to meet them where they are and help them to get where they want to go (as opposed to where we think they should go). If they don't know where they're going and won't accept help or advice, then that's just how they need to handle things and those are the lessons they need to learn. (I have a feeling this may be more of an issue with DD than it is with her brother, even though she doesn't have nearly the cognitive and emotional issues he does.) It doesn't mean we failed them. It means that's the path they chose, and maybe in the long run it really is the best path for them. I do find this board, and especially this particular subset of WTMers, to incredibly helpful and supportive; these discussions where we all sort of think out loud and work through these kinds of issues have had a profound impact on my own approach to homeschooling, and have given me a great deal of confidence and reassurance that I really am doing the best I can for my kids. :grouphug: Jackie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 I don't have the angst involved in trying to educate a quirky kid who has no idea what he wants to do/study/be when he grows up, and feeling like I have to prepare him for every possible eventuality, and then on top of that, dealing with him fighting me about it. It seems that what's difficult for many people is the responsibility for "every eventuality" -- I hear so many people afraid of closing off doors or paths. It's crucial for us to reassure one another, to pass along stories, to discuss, how a focused, passionate, determined person can do what needs to be done to pursue a goal, no matter whether they had calculus in high school or read certain classics or never knew about ______ (fill in the blank) until college or even after. I don't know if anyone else finds this nearly as interesting and helpful to remember as I do, but I find myself often thinking of Greg Mortensen (he of Three Cups of Tea fame) and how he discovered his life's work accidentally, in his twenties; there's also Joseph Needham (of The Man Who Loved China), who developed a fascination with China and the Chinese language mid-career (as I recall, first triggered by falling in love with a visiting scholar from China), and who became the West's premier scholar of Chinese history and culture in the mid-1900s. I also remember, surprisingly often, a quote by the award-winning British author Penelope Fitzgerland, in which she said she'd trade ALL her books and awards for having grown up loved, and having intimate friends... it was heart-breaking. These two sets of stories are my beacons. Anyone else have similar things you cling to in Homeschooling Dark Times? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted October 18, 2010 Author Share Posted October 18, 2010 How is the walking going? Offering you cambric tea and sympathy GRIN as I try to cut down on the number of cups of tea I consume. -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 but I don't have the angst involved in trying to educate a quirky kid who has no idea what he wants to do/study/be when he grows up, and feeling like I have to prepare him for every possible eventuality, and then on top of that, dealing with him fighting me about it. I think all we can really do is try to meet them where they are and help them to get where they want to go (as opposed to where we think they should go). Jackie This is where I am at with my ds. I've seen his interests narrow in scope over the years, but he's not quite at the point of defining a true passion. As I look into the space/time continuum of his future, I see the abundant alternate realities of his life. The only ones I want to shut off are the ones where his weaknesses (and mine in teaching) overtake his true potential. I let my mind wander sometimes thinking of what he could become, then I pull myself back down to earth and realize he's going to choose his own path. The best I can hope is that he has learned to pack his bags well for the journey. There is so much in life and learning to explore I know there is no way I could cram it all into four years of high school. Today we watched a video on Wild China. Afterward I asked him what he had learned about China from the video. Logical child turned it back around and asked me what I learned, which was quite a bit. I'm 43 and I'm still learning. Perhaps that's the best thing I can do, show him that learning doesn't stop. If he acquires the nature of still wanting to learn and explore in his middle age, I'd be happy with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 It seems that what's difficult for many people is the responsibility for "every eventuality" -- I hear so many people afraid of closing off doors or paths. It's crucial for us to reassure one another, to pass along stories, to discuss, how a focused, passionate, determined person can do what needs to be done to pursue a goal, no matter whether they had calculus in high school or read certain classics or never knew about ______ (fill in the blank) until college or even after. I don't know if anyone else finds this nearly as interesting and helpful to remember as I do, but I find myself often thinking of Greg Mortensen (he of Three Cups of Tea fame) and how he discovered his life's work accidentally, in his twenties; there's also Joseph Needham (of The Man Who Loved China), who developed a fascination with China and the Chinese language mid-career (as I recall, first triggered by falling in love with a visiting scholar from China), and who became the West's premier scholar of Chinese history and culture in the mid-1900s. I ended up working as an editor, graphic artist, and publications manager despite having no formal background in those areas (there aren't a lot of jobs for anthropologists and I was totally disillusioned with life in academia anyway). DH has a BS in archaeological conservation, started a PhD in the architecture department at Cambridge, and ended up with patents in 3D graphics programming, totally self-taught. I know a Comparative Religions major who now owns his own publishing company, and an engineer who changed careers in mid-stream and became a patent lawyer. I know a woman with an MFA from Parsons who became a chef and now owns her own restaurant. None of those people really had backgrounds in the areas that eventually became their passions, and it didn't hold them back in the least. I also remember, surprisingly often, a quote by the award-winning British author Penelope Fitzgerland, in which she said she'd trade ALL her books and awards for having grown up loved, and having intimate friends... it was heart-breaking. Every single person I know (including DH and myself) who didn't grow up loved would say the same thing. Overcoming the self-doubt, and even self-loathing, that comes from growing up with parents who don't value or respect you is far far more difficult than filling academic gaps. Holes in your education are easily plugged, holes in your heart take a lifetime to heal. Being a parent doesn't mean we have superpowers to see into our kids' futures, or change their personalities, so there's no way we can ensure that they will be 100% prepared for every possible field they might end up pursuing. But if your kids leave home knowing beyond all doubt that they are loved and valued and respected for who they are, then you have not failed them, because they'll have the confidence and self-respect they need to become anything they want to be. Jackie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 (edited) Jackie, what a lovely, lovely post. Great stories, just the kind I had in mind; and a reminder that the single most important thing is letting our kids know that they are unconditionally loved for who they are, not what they achieve. You've reminded me of something else I was told long ago but have since let slip out of mind. I had the chance to meet Rupert Isaacson, author of The Horse Boy, a book about his autistic son and the difference horses have made in their joint lives; among other things, the family took a monumental journey to Mongolia and trekked to meet various shamans. At any rate, his son is thriving although still quirkily autistic, and one thing I had forgotten is that they do school on horseback, simply because it works so well for them. Rupert Isaacson autographed my copy of his book and wrote to my daughter, "For the sheer adventure of it all." That's something I want to keep in mind, as a way to remind me not to emphasize academics at the expense of things that are truly far more important. It's a helpful tool for doing that balancing act. Whenever we get into this type of thread I always remember great things that I have somehow allowed to slip out of notice in the hurly-burly of everyday. Edited October 19, 2010 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kareni Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 I've been enjoying this thread and the thoughtful discussion it has engendered. (And wishing that I were a somewhat more philosophical person ....) So, to add a couple of prosaic items to the original list ~ Can the student read a bus schedule or a map? Can the student balance a check book? And, more importantly, Is the student able to put himself in someone else's shoes? Is he kind? Regards, Kareni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 This might seem tangential, but I'd like to offer it because it has been so up close and personal to us for 12 months now- does my child/ young adult have a belief system that is solid enough to sustain them through the earthquakes of life. Do they understand themselves well enough to realize that they can carry on despite the quaking? I don't want my kids to grow up whiny and entitled, thinking that because they are smart or attractive are whatever that they are "owed" anything -be that wealth, fertility, comfort, stability, etc. I hope that they can cultivate resources and community (certainly with family, but also without) to sustain them through the trials that they will face in life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted October 20, 2010 Author Share Posted October 20, 2010 I am struggle with this, too. We all do, I think. It may be that your child's abilities just lag behind your expectations or lag behind your child's expectations. Both are equally frustrating. For the second child in a row, I have had this happen in a serious way in 9th grade and then spent 10th grade in a panic dealing with the fall-out. The older one began to be more independent when he was in 11th. The younger one wants to be independent now, in 10th, but I can see that I need to work with him still in some areas, and that there are some areas that he would chop out entirely if I didn't insist on having them, and I am caught between a rock and a hard place trying to encourage that independence and let him run with it, but discovering that if I let him do math independently, it will seriously impare his chances of getting where he wants to go (engineering). If I had done a better job with him earlier, he would be able to be independent now. He ought to be able to, given his age (16). There is a fine balance between encouraging your child to work at a more advanced level and expecting more than the child is actually capable of yet. This is one place where I think schools have an advantage because they have a much better idea of what is normal and can teach the same thing over and over and figure out a good way to teach it in gradual steps. We, of course, have the advantage of not needing the child to progress at a gradual pace. Sometimes things incubate or stagnate for awhile and then they take a leap. Or they at least start moving ahead again. It is hard on the parent when that happens. I have my children follow the same procedure for the non-textbook things like literature all the way through high school, but that means that they do it badly at first and then gradually get better at it. Since I only have a foggy idea of what an adult job looks like, and even worse, a foggy idea of what a good job for any particular age is, and the age is changing constantly, I am unable to grade them on anything other than effort (so I don't), and I am constantly messing up in the expectations department. I have had to resign myself to just not getting as far as we would if I were a better judge of when and how high to raise those expectations. My timing is absolutely miserable. Ug. Anyway, I just wanted to tell you that sometimes it seems like you have failed them but then they suddenly take a leap and it turns out that you haven't after all. Or it turns out that you just have a system of practice that has your child doing a bad job at something adult over and over, improving at their own pace, so it is hard to tell whether you are failing them or not. I think this is why lots of people don't like TWTM - assessing the child's work is very difficult. Those of us who have done whole textbooks with the child and then discovered at the end that the child was able to do the textbook but did not learn anything are more willing to try some other approach sigh. None of this may be applicable to your situation. I just know that I am trying constantly to remind myself this year (10th grade) that I can't see yet whether I have failed my child, even though it appears right now that I have. In some ways, anyway. -Nan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 Do you folks have these philosophical conversations frequently? If so, I am sorry I've missed them. I rarely come to this area of the hive. This is a lovely thread with much wisdom. I am going to keep an eye here. I often feel quite alone in my thoughts--- some of which have been expressed here. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 Do you folks have these philosophical conversations frequently? If so, I am sorry I've missed them. I rarely come to this area of the hive. This is a lovely thread with much wisdom. I am going to keep an eye here. I often feel quite alone in my thoughts--- some of which have been expressed here. Thanks. Have you seen this one? The Breadth vs. depth question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 Have you seen this one? The Breadth vs. depth question. Are 'cloud children' mentioned in that thread? I think I recall this one because I have a cloud child. I love when people embrace their cloud children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted October 20, 2010 Author Share Posted October 20, 2010 Yes, that is the cloud child thread. There were a few others last week. If you do a search for posts by EsterMaria or KarenAnne or Correlano or Swimmermom3, you probably will find them. Some of them were embedded down inside less philosophical-sounding posts. There have been some with Rosie and others, too, on the bilingual board. -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted October 20, 2010 Author Share Posted October 20, 2010 This week, my son is working on materials for an invincibility suit (very desirable because of his LARPing). In the process of thinking about this, he has investigated insect legs, the military's powered armor, refraction indexes, those people who just managed to cloak a few molecules, and the new material they are putting in ski helmets (among other things) that behaves like a starch and water mixture (sorry - the technical terms escape me). All on his own except that I demonstrated the wierd properties of corn starch. Mostly in his precious spare time. He had the time and energy to do this because he was too sick to go to gymnastics. I am trying to balance that sort of learning with being able to outline a science textbook, which still takes him absolutely forever, or answer science textbook questions, which he still is very bad at, or write up an experiment properly (which he is getting a bit better at but still needs practice with). If he can't do the second list, he won't get into engineering school, or learn very well even if he gets in. If he can't do the second list well, he won't get into an interesting engineering school and may give up on the engineering. If he doesn't have lots of time and encouragement to do the first, he won't make a creative engineer. Either that, or he'll give up on engineering, thinking it is lots of dry, hard work. Which it is, at times. All the stories in the world about how people endure hard dry work with precious little inspiration for long periods of time but manage to follow their dreams anyway won't help me because my oldest actually did this (refused to go to engineering school after public school). Fortunately, a few years out of school he changed his mind. While this approach had its advantages, it isn't something I want to repeat with the youngest. But returning to the question originally posed - do I let him continue investigating and building, or do I say, "Now you have to get off the internet and stop reading about the refraction index of diamonds and come outline this page." I've already decided that I want him to be able to do both. It is the nitty gritty of when and how much that bothers me. I don't have the energy to run around devising ways of mixing the two, and besides, he objects to having me "ruin" his fun project by adding academics to him and I don't blame him. (Although I think I have managed to talk him into writing the thing up lab-style after the fact.) In the past, I have taken the approach (more or less) of having academics from 7-2, mostly not trying to make them fun, and leaving the rest of the day and the weekends pretty free for his own projects (what doesn't get taken up by the family and gymnastics), but now (as of this fall) he is at the point where the academic aspect of his education no longer fits within such strict limits and I am having to rethink the whole thing. His activities these last two days have made me look at this thread in a more practical light. I began it as a philosophical ponderment about my mother, some unschoolers, myself, and EsterMaria's educations but now I am thinking I need to apply it more practically. -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) I am trying to balance that sort of learning with being able to outline a science textbook, which still takes him absolutely forever, or answer science textbook questions, which he still is very bad at, or write up an experiment properly (which he is getting a bit better at but still needs practice with). If he can't do the second list, he won't get into engineering school, or learn very well even if he gets in. If he can't do the second list well, he won't get into an interesting engineering school and may give up on the engineering. If he doesn't have lots of time and encouragement to do the first, he won't make a creative engineer. Either that, or he'll give up on engineering, thinking it is lots of dry, hard work. -Nan Nan, several things you've said in this thread have spoken to me. I'm going through much the same struggle with my DS#3. He spends so much time learning on his own - the things he is interested in - but has yet to learn to jump through the academic hoops in order to get into engineering school. This boy has learned how to make incredible fireworks, rockets, and launchers, how to tweak them to produce a different look or better result, has designed and made his own ball mill (using spare parts in the barn) to better meet his needs, he understands chemical processes and theory that I have never taught him. But the thought of him doing calculus sends shivers down my spine :tongue_smilie: He wants to be a chemical engineer - he would be a fantastic one if he could learn to jump through the academic hoops. So I spend the nights awake trying to figure out what *I* can do to help him. I have yet to come to any conclusion :glare: Then I wonder just how important I am anyways to his future career. I had a lousy public school education, but my own motivation allowed me to succeed in college. My lousy education has led me to want better for my sons which means that I have spent an inordinate amount of time researching, reading, and learning on my own. But is that really necessary? In my case there was no one to encourage me. I'm the only one in my family who graduated college. I wonder if my sons have any appreciation for what they have received. I doubt it since they have nothing to compare to. So, like you, I continue to come here for ideas, to find other approaches to education, and to be encouraged to keep on plugging away.:D Added: The one thing I wish my boys to learn is to continue trying even if the results are difficult to obtain - I want them to be persistent learners. Edited October 20, 2010 by CynthiaOK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennW in SoCal Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 When I'm talking about other people's children it is so easy for me to say things like the following: If an engineering school had to choose between the student who was perfect in conforming to all the academic boxes or the student who excels at and enjoys researching, designing AND building, which student do you think they'd rather have??? The world needs outside the box thinkers. Did you know Google allows their engineers to spend up to a full paid day each week on their own individual projects and that is how so many of the company's brilliant products have gotten started? Bill Gates wasn't exactly a model student. Students good at jumping through academic hoops are generally lousy innovators because they cannot think outside that box. I can confidently and calmly tell you all the above yet still be totally freaked out and convinced my own child is doomed to a bleak future flipping burgers at McDonalds for minimum wage because I haven't been "rigorous" enough with him. Thank heavens I have friends who tell me I'm nuts to worry, that he is doing fine. I must say that what a pleasant surprise it is that my boys are far more motivated to tackle dreary subjects when there is a teacher other than me. It reassures me that all those hours pursing their own interests has not killed their love of learning nor has it handicapped their ability to study and succeed in traditional settings. If anything, their individual projects have motivated them to want to go to college because they see the limitations of their own knowledge and abilities and they are eager to learn more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 If an engineering school had to choose between the student who was perfect in conforming to all the academic boxes or the student who excels at and enjoys researching, designing AND building, which student do you think they'd rather have??? This is exactly on the money. I have read recently several laments by people at MIT etc. that they no longer get kids who spent their adolescence building things, taking things apart, doing projects like those in Make magazine, fiddling to modify machines, etc. They want kids who have shown initiative in something other than studying for the test. Other scientific fields are looking for kids with good observation skills, writing ability, and computer knowledge (this is dh's personal list of things he looks for in incoming graduate students; dh is a chemistry professor). The activities that several of you describe your sons doing are going to make their admissions essays absolutely fantastic. In an age when so many, many kids have the same grades, SAT scores, and AP classes, the things that make your child different -- and, you fear, not up to par -- are precisely the things that are going to stand out hugely in his favor. I would bend over backwards (in fact I already do, in different areas) to let my child have as much time as possible to pursue those interests, particularly if the child is self-motivated and initiates and carries through with ideas. Call it a junior and/or senior project as SWB suggests, adding a writing component at some point. I also think Jenn is right on target when she says that older adolescents are often much more willing to do conventional work for someone else, particularly once they have decided on their goals and know their knowledge or aims are different than or beyond what we know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 Regarding kids whose interests and aptitudes lean towards engineering, I haven't BTDT with a child, but my DH has BTDT himself so maybe his story will be of interest. He had the kind of education many WTMers might consider close to the academic ideal: a rigorous, private, British (boarding school) education, where everyone studied Latin and read classics and all the kids took the Oxford & Cambridge exams. In his (rare) spare time, he tinkered and took things apart and built things with spare parts and designed all kinds of futuristic inventions. Because he was both artistic and "sciencey" (and because his father was obsessed with archaeology and wished he'd been an archaeologist himself) DH was steered into a program in Archaeological Conservation, where he got a BS with honors. He applied for a prestigious fellowship in the US, then got another fellowship, each time moving more and more towards a technological approach, including designing imaging systems. Then he was invited to do a PhD at Cambridge based on a research paper he presented at the British Museum. In the process of his meandering research, he taught himself advanced calculus, differential equations, and three programming languages. Then he invented a 3D imaging system that has patents granted or pending in 7 countries. Nothing he learned in school really prepared him for what he ended up doing. A kid who is constantly taking things apart and sketching his "inventions" and building rockets in the garage at 7 or 8 is going to end up doing something like that for a living, because that's who they are and that's how they think. Did the fact that DH didn't have the necessary background in math or programming, or that his degree was in a totally different area, prevent him from doing what he wanted to do? Nope. He taught himself the skills he needed when he needed them, and I truly believe that people like this will find a way to do what they want to do, regardless of whether "school" prepared them for it. OTOH, would DH have preferred to spend more time studying the subjects he showed a strong interest in, and aptitude for, instead of being forced to spend years slogging through Latin and reading books he hated? Definitely. At the very least he wishes he'd had more time to just tinker and take things apart and design things. So his recommendation would be to err on the side of more tinkering time, and less time being forced to study subjects kids have little interest in and no aptitude for. (That doesn't mean the skills aren't important, but analytical thinking can be taught through science rather than literary analysis, kwim?) I know a lot of people may not agree with that, but that's one perspective from a guy who's BTDT, and wishes things had been different. Even if it doesn't change anyone's perspective on the balance of subjects (and free time) during HS, I hope it will help alleviate some of the angst and guilt parents feel about making sure their child is perfectly prepared for their future career. Kids who have strong passions will find ways to pursue them no matter what, and a less-than-ideal homeschool (or public or private school) education is not going to ruin their lives or prevent them from becoming whatever they want to become. Jackie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan C. Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 Searching for balance is a good thing, it keeps us from either extreme. I guess its the wide path you are talking about. Do we let them direct their own studies, or use a text. Or, use a text or books. Or rigorous or tailored to the kid. Indepth, or get 'er done. For us, a little of both, so the middle. And it is a constant struggle to keep near that middle. And the middle is different for each kid. For us, the college prep is non-negotiable. I don't want to be the one responsible for them not getting into college! But I did find that there was a little more play than I thought there was. If you miss a few things the college wants, you do have options..... (but we didn't miss anything). With ds, I just checked off of the list of what he needed to take. It didn't hurt that he was very compliant, he even did (some) awful curriculum without complaining. But, it is that no wiggle room thing, and it works! With dd, I am being forced to look at what we do. But still, even though I will listen about how something isn't working, and even change a few things, some things are non-negotiable. Even if we end up doing something less than perfect, it is good prep for that class or two (or more) that they do in dual enrollment or college that has that less than perfect teacher. Sometimes I think that too much "perfection" can spoil them and skew their perception of what the world is really like. Sometimes we think our dc can't do something, and they prove us and themselves wrong! Dd struggled with some of physical science.... I dreaded biology. She took it with VHSG and did great. No amount of coaxing on my part would have been able to accomplish what that teacher did!!! And this year she is doing chemistry. At the beginning of the year, I was wondering if we would have to find an easier program. And the teacher was being very strict about significant figures. Well, both of us sweat bullets, but by gosh, she figured it out and is doing much better. She even got a few very good test scores! It reminds me when dc were younger, late elementary and middle school. I could barely get them off of the couch. I enrolled them in swim team.... and couldn't believe what I saw when they were swimming 50 laps a day!!! I don't like it, and even gripe about it, but dc will do for others what they will fight against us to do. What will we do when we graduate our youngest kids??? (I'll figure out something!!! :) ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan C. Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 This is exactly on the money. I have read recently several laments by people at MIT etc. that they no longer get kids who spent their adolescence building things, taking things apart, doing projects like those in Make magazine, fiddling to modify machines, etc. They want kids who have shown initiative in something other than studying for the test. Warning, rant coming...... my dad was an engineer. Ds wanted to try it, maybe even do it..... he goes to college after being homeschooled his entire school career. He loved science, and conquered math. Not the fastest kid out there, but more than capable. So, these schools say they want that??? It takes time, and the kids don't have it because of the ridiculous course loads. And don't even get me going about the anal teachers who were born doing the math and science, but can't explain it to those who weren't. When ds was buying his books before college freshman year, a girl in the bookstore said she didn't see math/science majors more than 10 minutes a week because they were studying their heads off. Ds came out of that year and changed majors. The math moved too fast, he said he could have done it if they had slowed the pace. In science, the teacher just read the answers, and the pace was insane. Ds even had health problems from it all. He borrowed an adderal to get through the final. We went many nights with way less than a whole night's sleep, and he just couldn't do it anymore. Yes, there are those kids who are fast, and live for the challenge, and blaze a trail through it all. But there are not enough of them. Dad said there were tons of openings at his work, he worked for the government and so they can't hire foreigners. He couldn't believe that colleges would turn anyone away who wanted to learn engineering. But they do, in droves. Phew, I feel better now..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 A kid who is constantly taking things apart and sketching his "inventions" and building rockets in the garage at 7 or 8 is going to end up doing something like that for a living, because that's who they are and that's how they think. :iagree: My brother had a -- shall we say "checkered" -- high school experience and never went to college. In high school he was always messing around on a very early computer, including hacking into the local university's grade-keeping system and other no-no's. He never went to college, but now he is in charge of a nation-wide company's computer systems. It remains what he does in his spare time (although now he's very upstanding and righteously within the law), and he makes more than my dh with his PhD and professorship. Dd is spending enormous, and I mean truly enormous, amounts of time tracking down fan fiction related to Lord of the Rings. She has produced some fifty pages of her own stories, imitating various highly complex sentence structures, symbolic images, and repeating motifs. She thinks through written narrative, story, and imagery -- always has, since she was beginning to talk. I don't let her do this all day long; it doesn't replace her regular work. But I consider it a vital part of her upper level work: the research, imitation, and production of original work constitutes exactly the kind of independent project SWB talks about in the rhetoric stage of TWTM. The more I think of it, the more I wonder whether considering what your son does, Nan, would sit more comfortably with you if you classified it in your own mind as an independent upper level project. What you are describing is high level research and thinking, it is crossing disciplinary boundaries, it is showing initiative, and you got him to write part of it up. Just keep track of what he does for a while, writing it down for yourself, and see how much is truly going on intellectually. I would consider it absolutely a vital part of his education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted October 21, 2010 Author Share Posted October 21, 2010 All I can say is that you haven't sat with my son and tried to get him to do a science book. He can read Gilgamesh and sum it all up as "What to do with your running-amok, all-powerful, teenage king", but he cannot pick out the main points of a chapter in a science textbook, and if you ask him to answer the questions, he will give you ummm... interesting answers. They aren't exactly wrong, but they certainly are not what the textbook intended. I wouldn't say his math was rock solid, either. He can communicate in French but it is entirely ungrammatical. And so on and so forth. He isn't exactly reassuring me as to his ability to survive engineering school. I have no problem putting "Technical Projects" on his transcript and giving him some credit for them. I've finally managed to talk him into documenting his projects and he does plenty of research for them, so there is the academic componant that I like to have for something "to count for school". They aren't particularly complicated projects, but neither was the egg drop my oldest got credit for (among other projects) at public school. He isn't the most creative person I know, or the best at problem solving, but he isn't horrible in those departments, either. It is the academic skills and foundational knowledge that worry me. On the other hand, I don't want to do any more of that than necessary because I think he learns a lot doing his own projects, learns a lot and it sticks better, probably. I managed to do lots of school and forget almost every single bit the minute I stepped out of the classroom. -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Reading this thread--I'm basking in it. It's the most delicious meal at a banquet table for me. Nan, I totally ask these questions, but I'm very intuitive (thinker) and in the last few years I've learned to trust that more. I see you like to think on paper. I do that often to, when the thoughts are swirling around faster than I can pull them down and analyze them. I'm going to go all woo-woo sounding on this answer, but it's the only way I can answer it the way I tackle this same problem. I scatter thoughts. I scatter ideas and feelings, and see what sounds (like a pitchfork) and what drops. Knowing my kids, I know how they sound in response. I know when an antenna perks up, or when someone takes a second look. To me, I'm sounding to their truth. To their talent. The more we travel on this journey, the more I realize I'm just the facilitator--even just the waitress. *g* It's very intuitive for me and that -most days- makes me feel as though I'm dangling off a cliff. But it's when I stand and look back that I know I'm doing the right thing. Every year I battle fear and every year, somewhere around October, I begin to see the path for the current year more clearly and my footsteps become more sure. Yet it's so very easy to feel that we're continually falling short, doing them a disservice, not doing enough, etc. There's such a huge fear that they will flounder in some way once they're on their own and it will BE OUR FAULT. Oh, that fear. Harnessing that fear is *the* thing, I think. So much cold, dry life can be served up from that fear. It's just, you know? It's there and we all have it and it's how we ultimately react to it. Will we it overtake us and check off those squares? Or will we harness it and use it as a tool? Yes, but... Normally, I am a fairly laisse faire parent. So were mine. And so were theirs. But we all believe that parenting is mostly a matter of hitting the right balance between extremes. If it were a matter of being extreme, it would be so much easier. But I don't think it is. Does that make sense? Sometimes I talk in circles. Or go up trees GRIN. -Nan The extremes are easier, too, I think. I think I'm seen as a laisse faire parent, but in all actuality, I'm pretty intense. My Mom was a laisee faire parent, and she was totally disengaged from my education. The part that makes me seem laisse faire, is that now, that I've been at this gig 19 years, I'm beginning to think I could actually get it right if I had another baby. Lol. YKWIM? #1 was the one I made the worst mistakes in the name of rigor on and though I killed his love of learning for the last 5 years, now that he's had some time to breathe and hit some rough patches, he's starting to find a path which includes schooling. Had I let this kid tinker and explore and experiment, he would have been on this path much sooner. He's much like the one son in the book, THE CALL TO BRILLIANCE http://www.amazon.com/Call-Brilliance-Inspire-Parents-Educators/dp/0977836908/ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1287623202&sr=1-1-catcorr So, my knowing anything about all of this comes from my profound failures. I wish I had him to do all over again. I failed him miserably, and I did it with extreme rigor. I didn't temper my fear and in ignorance, I gave in to an extreme. I don’t have a list of specific questions, just more of a gut feeling. So……balance……what is it and how do we know it? It is unique for each child and I am not sure it has a defined answer. I just know when I feel like it isn’t there. :P Sorry……not much help in the question department. For me….it is just a sense. And right now I'm not even sure if I am going in the right direction in my withdrawing them from debate. :confused: Nan, I do think the area of balance is wide rather than narrow. I also think the edges shift, with each child, at different ages. But I do believe it is wide, and as Jenn says, allows for missteps or wavering toward one extreme and then correcting. Having seen burn-out and basically breakdown in my dd last fall during her private school months, I can tell you that the warning signs are loud and clear, even at the time and before retrospect. What complicates matters, I think, is that every child resists -- both things they are not interested in and on occasion simply being taught by a parent -- and each child again is different in what triggers this and to what degree. My dd is a combination of amenability and very, very strong-mindedness in certain areas; I've learned to work with that, learned what pushing accomplishes and what it destroys. I've also learned that my own predilections and priorities are very different from dd's; what I'd love NOW as an education is different than what I probably wanted as a teenager, and what I wanted at both stages is different than what dd wants. If anyone is interested, I've just had a short article accepted for publication on the whole trauma of pulling dd out of private school last fall, and what was interesting about her return to homeschooling. If you PM me and send your regular e-mail I can send you the draft. It may or may not strike any chords that resonant with what we're discussing here, but it gave me a new way of looking at what I'm doing. Your whole post here resonates with me so much. Just all of it. Every single person I know (including DH and myself) who didn't grow up loved would say the same thing. Overcoming the self-doubt, and even self-loathing, that comes from growing up with parents who don't value or respect you is far far more difficult than filling academic gaps. Holes in your education are easily plugged, holes in your heart take a lifetime to heal. Being a parent doesn't mean we have superpowers to see into our kids' futures, or change their personalities, so there's no way we can ensure that they will be 100% prepared for every possible field they might end up pursuing. But if your kids leave home knowing beyond all doubt that they are loved and valued and respected for who they are, then you have not failed them, because they'll have the confidence and self-respect they need to become anything they want to be. Jackie Three things in human life are important. The first is to be kind. The second is to be kind. And the third is to be kind. ~ Henry James. That is the most important thing I can ever, ever teach them. We only leave behind what we've placed in other people's hearts. Anyway, I just wanted to tell you that sometimes it seems like you have failed them but then they suddenly take a leap and it turns out that you haven't after all. None of this may be applicable to your situation. I just know that I am trying constantly to remind myself this year (10th grade) that I can't see yet whether I have failed my child, even though it appears right now that I have. In some ways, anyway. -Nan Yup. I see it with my oldest, I did fail him, yet not completely. He had enough of rigor, quit homeschooling in 9th (don't think I 'let' that happen without a fight-and that fight nearly destroyed our relationship, too), and signed himself out of PS (after repeated failures) at 18. BUT, I gave him enough at that point that he passed his GED with flying colors and was able to pull himself up by his bootstraps when he had to. What I wish I would have done? That I would have seen his talent, that I would have given him time to decompress, that I would have let him go a little bit more. I have found that I love being intelligent and I love my work, but find that wisdom, discernment, and character go a lot further and that relationships are the only thing worth sacrificing for because they bring true fulfillment. All of this is what I try to pass on to my children, but I am constantly reminding myself that God's grace is at work and that He loves them even more than I do and that He has a plan for them that He is putting it into place. I hope this eases some of the burden of responsibility. Angela that is so lovely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 the rest of my post : When I'm talking about other people's children it is so easy for me to say things like the following: If an engineering school had to choose between the student who was perfect in conforming to all the academic boxes or the student who excels at and enjoys researching, designing AND building, which student do you think they'd rather have??? The world needs outside the box thinkers. Did you know Google allows their engineers to spend up to a full paid day each week on their own individual projects and that is how so many of the company's brilliant products have gotten started? Bill Gates wasn't exactly a model student. Students good at jumping through academic hoops are generally lousy innovators because they cannot think outside that box. I can confidently and calmly tell you all the above yet still be totally freaked out and convinced my own child is doomed to a bleak future flipping burgers at McDonalds for minimum wage because I haven't been "rigorous" enough with him. Thank heavens I have friends who tell me I'm nuts to worry, that he is doing fine. I must say that what a pleasant surprise it is that my boys are far more motivated to tackle dreary subjects when there is a teacher other than me. It reassures me that all those hours pursing their own interests has not killed their love of learning nor has it handicapped their ability to study and succeed in traditional settings. If anything, their individual projects have motivated them to want to go to college because they see the limitations of their own knowledge and abilities and they are eager to learn more. this is what I hope to hit. I know it as truth in our own lives, I see how Dh's and my outside the box thinking has been the arrow of our success and I want that for them. But I want to give them more than what I had-and better than what I had. I want them to be able to trust themselves-that their outside the box thinking, while scorned by many, will be axis of their success. This is exactly on the money. I have read recently several laments by people at MIT etc. that they no longer get kids who spent their adolescence building things, taking things apart, doing projects like those in Make magazine, fiddling to modify machines, etc. They want kids who have shown initiative in something other than studying for the test. Other scientific fields are looking for kids with good observation skills, writing ability, and computer knowledge (this is dh's personal list of things he looks for in incoming graduate students; dh is a chemistry professor). The activities that several of you describe your sons doing are going to make their admissions essays absolutely fantastic. In an age when so many, many kids have the same grades, SAT scores, and AP classes, the things that make your child different -- and, you fear, not up to par -- are precisely the things that are going to stand out hugely in his favor. I would bend over backwards (in fact I already do, in different areas) to let my child have as much time as possible to pursue those interests, particularly if the child is self-motivated and initiates and carries through with ideas. Call it a junior and/or senior project as SWB suggests, adding a writing component at some point. I also think Jenn is right on target when she says that older adolescents are often much more willing to do conventional work for someone else, particularly once they have decided on their goals and know their knowledge or aims are different than or beyond what we know. a writing component to his tinkering-this is what I'll have to add to 11 yo's list. And Jenn is so very right. I've seen my kids squabble with me over what they happily do for someone else. I am mince meat. I know this. :D :iagree: My brother had a -- shall we say "checkered" -- high school experience and never went to college. In high school he was always messing around on a very early computer, including hacking into the local university's grade-keeping system and other no-no's. He never went to college, but now he is in charge of a nation-wide company's computer systems. It remains what he does in his spare time (although now he's very upstanding and righteously within the law), and he makes more than my dh with his PhD and professorship. Dd is spending enormous, and I mean truly enormous, amounts of time tracking down fan fiction related to Lord of the Rings. She has produced some fifty pages of her own stories, imitating various highly complex sentence structures, symbolic images, and repeating motifs. She thinks through written narrative, story, and imagery -- always has, since she was beginning to talk. I don't let her do this all day long; it doesn't replace her regular work. But I consider it a vital part of her upper level work: the research, imitation, and production of original work constitutes exactly the kind of independent project SWB talks about in the rhetoric stage of TWTM. The more I think of it, the more I wonder whether considering what your son does, Nan, would sit more comfortably with you if you classified it in your own mind as an independent upper level project. What you are describing is high level research and thinking, it is crossing disciplinary boundaries, it is showing initiative, and you got him to write part of it up. Just keep track of what he does for a while, writing it down for yourself, and see how much is truly going on intellectually. I would consider it absolutely a vital part of his education. This paragraph, right here (all of it, but this especially) yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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