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Help! My hair keeps falling out!


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Really. I was used to losing large amounts of hair after each of the children were born and it grew back in.

 

I have been used to it shredding out when I wash it the past few years.

 

But, it's not growing back much anymore.

 

And it keeps falling out.

 

It's getting scary thin. This morning I felt the back of my head and it really worries me. When I pulled my hair back the other day, I could see the scalp in several places.

 

I am going to call and get a regular Dr. check up because I am due for a couple of routine things that women go through... (41 yrs). I will mention this to the Dr. and do blood work.

 

Outside of that, what can I do? Is there any successful treatment? My dh lost his first wife to cancer and she had a wig and he cannot stand the idea of me having one...

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Things that have caused me to lose hair include:

iron deficiency

low vitamin D

stress in general

 

And I know it can be caused by thyroid issues, among other things.

 

Supplements which have helped me include:

fish oil

vitamin D

iron supplementation

red grapes

biotin

no hats

no ponytails or other hair clips

no chemical hair treatments (color or perm)

 

 

And then there's the proverbial jello.

 

You are doing the right thing to schedule a check up. Bloodwork can help figure out the cause and best solution.

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Telogen Effluvium is what our dermatologist diagnosed for our 16yo (at the time) dd.

 

We learned that stress (pre-nursing schoolwork) & weight loss were her triggers (because there were no other causes). There was not much she could do, just treat her hair carefully . . . and try to deal with the stress better.

 

She still has occasional flare-ups (now 19yo), but her hair is just thinner, not "balding". She cut it shorter to make it seem more full.

 

(She had negative thyroid tests.)

 

Hang in there!

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I am right there with you (44yo)! No one believes me because I have always had very thick hair......but it is falling out at an alarming rate! I have had all kinds of bloodwork done (thyroid and hormonal function, etc..) but nothing to indicate any problems. Looking for relief as well as sometimes it sends me into a freak-out.....which probably isn't good for my stress level.

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Guest ME-Mommy

I agree with getting your Thyroid checked...

 

Also, do you happen to be using Pantene?? My mother's hairdresser told us that Pantene is one of the worst OTC hair products. It does something to the hair follicles that causes hair loss. (sorry I can't remember the details)

 

Within a few weeks after my mother stopped using Pantene, her hair started growing back. (I think she used Nioxin for a while but is now using Paul Mitchell or Biolage.)

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I was losing a lot of hair, too, and thyroid test came back normal. So, I started taking vitamin D supplements and cod liver oil and it made a dramatic improvement to both my hair and general health. Also, drinking more water is helping.

 

Last year I was at the hair salon and the stylist was shaking her head over how much hair she was combing out of my scalp. About a month ago, I had my hair done again and there was not only a lot of new growth, but normal "shedding."

 

HTH - it can be scary, but is probably quite treatable. :)

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I was losing a lot of hair, too, and thyroid test came back normal. So, I started taking vitamin D supplements and cod liver oil and it made a dramatic improvement to both my hair and general health. Also, drinking more water is helping.

 

My hair has been thinning for some time now, and I've tried many things.

But I've never heard of cod liver oil. Is this something available in a capsile, or would I actually have to drink something? This sounds like it would be very nasty.... :D

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I would definitely get your thyroid checked out.

 

Also, are you on a diet? Or, following a low-fat eating plan?

 

When I was dieting, I was on a low-fat/fat-free diet and it messed me up SO BAD. My hair was falling out and my dr. is 99% sure that my thyroid was out of whack.

 

I was able to correct it through changing my diet completely- real food, and added Fermented Codliver Oil, and Unrefined coconut oil to my diet

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My hair has been thinning for some time now, and I've tried many things.

But I've never heard of cod liver oil. Is this something available in a capsile, or would I actually have to drink something? This sounds like it would be very nasty.... :D

 

It is nasty.

 

There are capsules, but I drink mine straight. :ack2:

 

I'm not an expert on the stuff, I just buy a bottle of whatever I find on the pharmacy shelf. There are many different types, though, and some are flavored to make them more palatable. I've not heard of "fermented" cod liver oil...I'll have to look that up.

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It is nasty.

 

There are capsules, but I drink mine straight. :ack2:

 

I'm not an expert on the stuff, I just buy a bottle of whatever I find on the pharmacy shelf. There are many different types, though, and some are flavored to make them more palatable. I've not heard of "fermented" cod liver oil...I'll have to look that up.

 

 

Fermented CLO is the traditional method for extraction, instead of using heat to extract the oil, which is how most of the fish oils are extracted now. Heat will destroy most of the nutrients, but with the lacto-fermentation process, it makes the different vitamins and minerals more easily absorbed than the heat-extracted oil.

 

 

okay, sorry for the hijack!:lol:

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What was going on 3 months ago? A stressful situation? Drastic change in eating habits? Start taking any hormones? other medication? If your hair has recently started falling out - the cause was probably 3 months ago. Also, if you look at one of the hairs that falls out, do you see a small white "bulb" on the end that came out of the scalp? If so, you are probably experiencing Telogen Effluvium. It is not permanent, but it will probably last 3-6 months. Nioxin is helpful but not a miracle worker.

Most importantly, try to not stress out about it! I've gone through it more than once (when I drastically cut out carbs, and when I had hormonal changes). Now, (several months later) my hair has grown back in, and it's just as thick as ever. :001_smile:

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If your thyroid is fine, you might also want to look into polycystic ovarian syndrome. It generally causes weight gain, not weight loss, but it's different for everyone, and something like 10% of women have it. It causes hair loss, acne, weight gain, heavy and painful periods, and excess facial hair.

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I had the same problem that started a couple years ago and lasted for a year. I went to the doc and was tested for low thyroid which came back that I was fine. I just suddenly stopped (I'm 36 now). my hair was literally falling out in handfuls. I was so scared. I've always had very thick long hair. It's much thinner now then it was. I started taking a lot of vitamins and one supplement I started taking was amazing. It is called Biosil. You can get it from Viacost.com. I even noticed a difference in the thickness of my nails and in my skin. It's expensive but worth it. I tried nioxin shampoo first but it didnt work for me. I really think it was related to stress. If you underwent any great amour of stress 3 months prior to the hair loss, that is most likely what it could be (if your thyroid is okay).

 

I still remember when i went through a divorce with my first marriage (I was only 22) and had extreme hair loss them too....the doc told me it was stress and that it takes 3 months for your hair follicles to catch up to whatever stress you have gone through.

 

If you want to chat, feel free to PM me. I know exactly how you feel. I was scared to death for over a year.

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My daughter was diagnosed with Alopecia Areata a couple of years ago. Her hair started falling out on the front half of her head and her face when she was 9 and did not grow back completely until she was 11. Her eyelashes only partially regrew. She's been wearing false eyelashes since she was 9. There is little known about it or what triggers it, but there is a local injection (a steroid) that can be used to manage it in small areas.

 

We went to a Dermatologist for the diagnosis.

 

Since then we have not had incidents, but were warned it could recur at any time or she could grow out it.

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You've had great advice so far. Here's a whole lot more ... more than you probably want to know. You may be sorry that you asked. ;)

 

When carrying out any of these methods, remember to be patient. Normal hair growth should resume within 6 months after starting any supplement or making any dietary or other change.

 

SUPPLEMENTS

2 supplements – have helped me the most – Iodoral and Biotin. The rest are helpful also, but those two have been the best for me.

NATROL BIOSIL from amazon or VitaminShoppe.com – Natrol Biosil is well-absorbed by the body and proven to deliver key proteins like keratin and collagen directly to the hair roots to increase growth and thickness. Great for skin, hair, and nails

OR

HORSETAIL is a good source of silica (which aids in hair growth and makes the hair stronger). Silica is necessary for strong, shiny hair.

OR YOU CAN TRY TAKING BOTH

Silica makes hair strong and shiny, but the amount your body holds tend to decline with age. Good food sources include: beets, leafy green vegetables, and whole grains. Or you can take 60 mg silica daily.

 

B COMPLEX – 50 mg twice a day or 100 mg once a day with meals. B vitamins are essential for the health and growth of the hair. B vitamins run low during high-stress times and are essential for healthy hair growth.

Try to get a good B Complex that includes: Biotin, Inositol, Choline, and PABA.

BIOTIN plays a key role in forming keratin, a protein that comprises healthy hair. Taking a 2400 mcg supplement can thicken hair shafts and encourage new growth. [Not everyone needs to take that much unless if they're concerned about hair loss. Most B-complex supplements have sufficient biotin otherwise]

Biotin plays a key role in forming keratin, a protein that comprises healthy hair

It helps in preventive treatment for baldness

There are no known cases of biotin toxicity, particularly since it is water-soluble

It is interesting that biotin levels fall progressively throughout pregnancy (and that is when many women lose hair).

 

CARLSON’S LIQUID FISH OIL - or any other good fish oil - you need enough EFAs (essential fatty acids)

 

ZINC – 15 mg daily – protects your hair

 

GLA SUPPLEMENTS – a type of omega-6 fatty acid that’s essential for healthy hair. Found in black currant oil or evening primrose oil. Don’t use GLA if you take an antiseizure Rx.

Take it on a full stomach in 2 divided doses, equally spaced during the day.

Take up to 500 mg EPO 2-3 times daily or 2000 mg total daily

Expect to wait up to 8 weeks to see results.

 

VITAMIN E – improves hair health and enhances hair growth.

Take 400 IU of vitamin E a day. Take d-alpha, NOT dl-alpha

Vitamin E is most effective when taken with selenium.

 

IODORAL

Available from amazon – the reviews are well worth reading

More than 90% of us are low in iodine.

Today's environment makes it almost impossible to get the amount of iodine you need.

1. There's very little iodine in the soil. So unless you're eating a ton of iodine-rich foods like kelp, seaweed and shellfish, you're not going to get much iodine from your diet.

2. Many salt companies have stopped adding iodine to table salt. While commercial table salt usually contains iodine, this is not the best way to boost iodine intake. In fact, “salt iodination, which is performed routinely in many countries, may increase the incidence of overt hypothyroidism,” a new Greek study concludes. Kelp and other sea vegetables are excellent sources of natural iodine.

3. Food manufacturers have stopped using iodine in baked goods and are using bromine instead. Bromine (a halogen) competes with iodine to get into your cells. So the more bromine you consume, the less iodine you get. Unfortunately, many foods today (primarily baked goods) are loaded with bromine.

4. Our water supply contains chlorine and fluoride, both of which are halogens. Again, halogens compete with iodine to get into your cells.

And you can't avoid chlorine and fluoride simply by drinking filtered water. That's because you get a hefty dose any time you bathe, shower, soak in a hot tub, or swim in a swimming pool.

5. Most conventional doctors never test for iodine deficiency. They figure there's no need to test iodine levels when they can just test your thyroid function instead. The problem with this is that the most widely used thyroid test, the TSH, is wildly inaccurate. Reason: While the TSH measures thyroid hormone, it can't tell the difference between active thyroid hormone with iodine and de-activated thyroid hormone with bromine or chlorine or fluorine. So the test shows you have plenty of thyroid hormone. But most of the thyroid hormone isn't doing its job!

I think it was Dr. Nan Fuchs who wrote: “I've had women come into my office who look like the poster child for underactive thyroid. They're overweight, they're losing their hair and eyebrows, their skin is dry, and they tell me they feel cold all the time. Yet when their doctor gave them a thyroid test, it came back normal!

When I put these women on iodine supplementation, their conditions improve dramatically. Their skin improves, they stop losing their hair, and they finally lose that excess weight — and keep it off.”

The RDA for iodine is 150 mcg. This amount was set based on the amount needed to prevent goiter. This amount will prevent goiter but it will not prevent other problems related to iodine deficiency.

The average consumption of iodine from seaweed by the mainland Japanese is nearly 14 mg. They have some of the lowest incidence of iodine-deficiency diseases like goiter, hypothyroidism, and cancers of the reproductive system (breast, ovaries, and uterus).

Some forms of iodine are harmful. Iodoral is not. All of us need a combination of iodine and iodide, the two forms of iodine used throughout our bodies. Iodoral and Lugol are the only supplements containing these two nutrients. Lugol, however, tastes foul.

You may need 1 to 4 tablets of Iodoral, a combination of 5 mg of iodine and 7.5 mg of potassium iodide. Additional research finds that vitamin C improves the transport of iodine in the body, so it may be best to take Iodoral with Vitamin C.

Studies show that women who weigh about 110 pounds need at least 5 mg of iodine a day for normal breast function. If you’re heavier, you may need more.

Start off slowly over a 4 week period.

Take 1 pill for 30 days

Then 2 pills for 30 days

Then maybe 3 for 30 days

Maybe 4 for 30 days

Then 1 in morning and 1 in evening for 30 days

Can then go back to taking 1 or 2 a day to maintain

Your body will know....listen to it...

One Iodoral tablet provides 12.5 milligrams of iodine/iodide which is about the amount the average Japanese consumed in 1964 in their everyday diet.

Iodoral is the best way to get the recommended amount of iodine.

 

D3

If you're under 50, take at least 2,000 IU per day.

If you're 50 or over, take at least 5,000 IU per day of vitamin D3.

Always take your vitamin D with a fat-containing meal to ensure absorption.

Your need for vitamin D3 is affected by age, skin color, and the severity of any deficiency

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EAT MORE

Use Seaweed Gomasio (again, amazon) to season your food, rather than iodized salt. Peela once said, "sea salt- particularly himalayan and celtic sea salt, are full of extra minerals. 84 minerals in sea salt- 2 in refined table salt. If there is one thing lacking in modern diets, it is minerals- more so than vitamins. Himalayan and Celtic Sea Salts as well as this one are rich in minerals, much richer than regular table salt."

 

Increase your iodine intake with mineral-rich sea vegetables (agar, hijiki, kombu, nori, and wakame) at least twice a week. You can eat as much seaweed as you want. Brown seaweeds are highest in iodine. They include all forms of kelp. Fucus, also known as Bladderwrack, is considered to be the best for underactive thyroids. Hijiki and Sargassum are two other forms of brown seaweeds. Red seaweeds include dulse, nori, Irish moss, and Gracillaria.

Since toasting doesn’t affect seaweed’s iodine content, you can eat it dried or dried and toasted. Toast some in the oven or in a dry frying pan to see if you prefer that taste. You can also powdered seaweed to your food or add larger pieces of seaweed to soups, grains, or vegetables. Seaweed should be an enjoyable addition to your diet, not an unpleasant experience. If you simply don’t like its taste, you can get it in capsules.

Use 5-10 grams of mixed brown and red seaweed for thyroid problems. This is about 1 ½ teaspoons per day.

Not all seaweeds are safe to eat. Some come from polluted waters.

Be more cautious and talk to a naturopath if you’re on thyroid meds and want to try seaweed.

 

Protein – plain yogurt, lean meat, fish, poultry, and eggs

 

Up to 90 percent of women who experience hair loss also suffer from low iron levels. Eat at least 3 daily servings of IRON-RICH FOODS like lean beef, green leafy veggies, legumes, dried fruit, and nuts. Try to always take iron-rich foods with vitamin C-rich foods, such as tomatoes, to increase absorption by up to 4 times. There was a recent thread on iron that's super-helpful. Much, much better to get iron from food rather than from supplements.

Iron is a double-edged mineral for women. Menstruating women lose iron-rich blood every month, plus pregnancy, nursing, and strenuous physical exercise dramatically increases the need for this mineral. But later in life, excess iron, which accumulates in the body after menopause, may increase women’s risk for cancer and heart disease.

If you’re over 50 or have experienced early or surgically induced menopause, see your doctor for a hematocrit, hemoglobin, and/or ferritin test to determine if you need iron. The ferritin test, which assesses stored iron, is most important here.

If your levels approach anywhere from 150 to 200 ng/mL on the ferritin test, do avoid extra iron in supplements, iron-enriched grains, and cut down on red meat. You might want to consider an iron-free multivitamin

Studies indicate that iron can help improve short-term memory loss and concentration. If you aren't using iron cookware regularly, you may wish to take 10 to 15 milligrams of elemental iron a day.

Jarrow Formulas IronSorb Elemental Iron From Protein Succinylate -- 18 mg - 60 Vegetarian Capsules

Iron oxidizes. If you take too much iron, it can lead to cancer. This is why there are few multivitamin formulas for postmenopausal women that contain iron.

If you have had cancer, or if there is a high incidence of cancer in your family, you may want to take a formula without added iron unless a blood test determines that you are iron-deficient, in which case, natural sources may be far superior.

 

Too much free testosterone can lead to hair loss – consider eating more soy-rich foods (not soy supplements) to decrease levels of testosterone – soybeans, tempeh, and tofu (all non-GMO and organic) - no more than 1 serving of soy food daily

 

Eat more of the following foods rich in B Vitamins and other needed minerals and vitamins essential for hair.

Nuts

Beef liver

Brown rice

Bulgur

Lentils

Oats

Sunflower seeds

Walnuts

Unprocessed Whole Grains

Wheat Germ

Rice Bran

Citrus Fruits

Eggs

Cabbage

Salmon

Leafy Greens including spinach

 

Make sure that your diet contains ample essential fatty acids.

Eat fish 2—3 times a week (not deep-fried) - salmon, sardines, herring, mackerel – 2-3 times a week

 

JUICING is very beneficial.

 

Remember, foods that are good for your skin (omega 3s, zinc, silica) are also good for your hair.

 

EAT LESS

The Standard American Diet is too rich in foods that actually starve the hair, such as fat, sugar, and refined foods.

Eastern medicine says that eating too much meat can cause hair loss. This might very well be true.

Cut down on sweets. Eastern medicine says that eating too much sugar can cause baldness on the sides of the forehead. Sugar is often a contributing factor in hair loss. After sugar is removed from some people’s diets, the hair-loss process is either halted or totally or partially reversed.

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OTHER TIPS/THINGS TO CONSIDER

MASSAGE SCALP DAILY (SOME SAY 3 TIMES A DAY)

Press the bristles of your brush on your scalp and make several strokes from your hairline to the base of your neck.

Then make small circles over your entire scalp.

Alternate these methods for 90 seconds.

 

Massage your scalp with a mixture of essential oils daily for at least 7 months. Add 8 drops each of Rosemary, Thyme, and Lavender essential oils to 8 ounces of shampoo. Pour a small amount of the mixture into your hands and rub it into your hair, gently massaging your scalp. Let the mixture sit for three minutes and rinse thoroughly.

 

OR

 

Frederic Fekkai More Nighttime Follicle Boosting Treatment from sephora.com or amazon

The niacin-derived compounds stimulate blood flow and activate cell receptors that influence hair growth. After applying these compounds for 6 months, 69 percent of women with hair loss saw significant increases in fullness.

 

LIE UPSIDE DOWN!

Lie on a slant board OR have your head hanging off the edge of the bed for 15 to 20 minutes per day. This will cause blood to flow to the scalp.

 

YOGA

Yoga helps a lot in slowing down and preventing hair loss. There are specific poses that are helpful

Try to Avoid:

• Hard brushing

• Tight braids

• Pulling hair too hard when blow-drying

• Blow drying if and when you can

• Commercial shampoos or rinses with artificial colors, preservatives, and dyes

• Harsh chemical products and hair spray

 

Try to:

• An acupuncturist can help develop an herbal formula that is tailored specifically to you, in addition to using the traditional needles to help restore hair growth. Herbs have a greater synergy with acupuncture, so you may see a greater benefit if you use both. :thumbup: :thumbup:

• Use a satin pillowcase helps because your hair is less likely to catch and pull on it as it would on a cotton pillowcase. A side benefit is that it helps save your hairstyle for another day, so you aren't pulling out more hair in the styling process. You can get them on amazon.

• Use the most natural hair products you can find.

• Look for ingredients such as biotin, silica. aloe vera gel, vitamins C and E, jojoba oils, chamomile, marigold, ginseng, or passionflower. Most health-food stores carry a variety of natural hair care products.

• Hair is fragile when it is wet. Gently pat your hair dry and squeeze out remaining moisture with a towel.

• Calm a hectic schedule. Stress signals the body to produce cortisol, which elevates levels of hair-loss-promoting hormones.

 

CAUSES

• Poor Diet and vitamin and mineral deficiencies

• Stress

• Thyroid problem – especially if you have dry skin, weight gain, and fatigue

• Taking large doses of Vitamin A (100,000 IU or more daily) for a long period of time

• Genetics/Heredity

• Harsh chemicals and hair dyes

• Poor Circulation (daily scalp massage, brushing, lying on a slant board, yoga)

• Acute Illness

• Surgery

• Radiation Exposure

• Skin Disease (biotin is essential here)

• Sudden Weight Loss

• High Fever

• Iron Deficiency (Up to 90 percent of women who experience hair loss also suffer from low iron levels).

• Diabetes

• Drugs – such as those used in chemotherapy

• Ringworm and other fungal infections

• Pregnancy

• High concentration of metals in the body

• Autoimmune diseases

• Scalp Infections

• If one is experiencing "male pattern baldness" type hair loss, where the hairline begins to recede and is thin only on top and not all over, it can be caused by metabolic syndrome. Fat distributed around the waist can actually cause a rise in androgens (male hormones) causing this problem. It can also revert back to normal if you can get the fat off your waist.

 

WHEN TO SEE A PHYSICIAN

If you are losing large amounts of hair, see a physician. It is normal to lose 50 to 150 hairs a day. If your hair appears to be dramatically thinning, it might be a sign of an underlying condition. While culprits can be as serious as thyroid disease and lupus, hair loss is most often caused by poor diet and stress.

 

GOOD BOOKS

The Hair Loss Cure: A Self-Help Guide by David H. Kingsley

How to Beat Hair Loss by Antonio Alvi Armani, MD

 

TO REVERSE DRAMATIC HAIR LOSS

40 percent or more, usually the result of severe alopecia or cancer treatments

Virtualrealityhair.com

Can cover sparse patches with real hair that has been inserted into a nearly invisible second skin

This method will only work for about a month, even during swimming

$400 per month! :001_huh:

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Folic Acid and Iron Deficiency. Both very common in women and it is the first thing that happens when you are deficient in either one.

 

Have your Iron and Folic Acid levels checked.

 

:iagree:I have had significant hair loss recently as well but I have been under a lot of stress in the past year and my blood work is normal. My parents both experienced hair loss when both their parents past away in the same year and there was a lot of family stress. My dad even developed a very noticable bald patch in his thick head of hair that grew back when things settled down. If your blood work is normal, its something to consider.:grouphug:

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My daughter was diagnosed with Alopecia Areata a couple of years ago. Her hair started falling out on the front half of her head and her face when she was 9 and did not grow back completely until she was 11. Her eyelashes only partially regrew. She's been wearing false eyelashes since she was 9. There is little known about it or what triggers it, but there is a local injection (a steroid) that can be used to manage it in small areas.

 

We went to a Dermatologist for the diagnosis.

 

Since then we have not had incidents, but were warned it could recur at any time or she could grow out it.

 

This happened to my daughter too. Her hair fell out in patches, the first time when she was 4, the second time when she was 9 and the most recent time, last year when she was 15. Right now she has regrowth that is about 2 inches long. A dermatologist is the best place to go. They treated her each time, and we have had good luck with the treatment so far.

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I agree with getting your Thyroid checked...

 

Also, do you happen to be using Pantene?? My mother's hairdresser told us that Pantene is one of the worst OTC hair products. It does something to the hair follicles that causes hair loss. (sorry I can't remember the details)

 

Within a few weeks after my mother stopped using Pantene, her hair started growing back. (I think she used Nioxin for a while but is now using Paul Mitchell or Biolage.)

 

Funny you should say that because I KNOW I lost hair due to this (as well as my cortisol issues)!! I stopped using it for years, went back to it, and had the SAME problem. I thought I was crazy! lol

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Several people answered that Vitamin D can help. How much should you take to help with hair loss?

 

If you're under 50, take at least 2,000 IU per day (I keep reading that it's fine to take more).

If you're 50 or over, take at least 5,000 IU per day of vitamin D3.

Always take your vitamin D with a fat-containing meal to ensure absorption.

Your need for vitamin D3 is affected by age, skin color, and the severity of any deficiency

 

Don't be concerned that 2,000-5,000 IU will give you too much. With exposure to sunlight in the summer, the body can generate between 10,000 IU and 20,000 IU of vitamin D per hour with no ill effects. In addition, no adverse effects have been seen with supplemental vitamin D intakes up to 10,000 IU daily.

To this day, medical textbooks mention the risk of vitamin D toxicity. Yet, the scientific literature suggests that toxicity occurs only with very large intakes of vitamin D over prolonged periods (more than 10,000 IUs daily for longer than 6 months). Except in people with disorders known as granulomatosis (such as sarcoidosis or tuberculosis), little risk (if any) is associated with vitamin D supplementation.

 

Most people are deficient!

• Body-mass index (BMI) and obesity

• Older people

• Dark-skinned people

• Strict vegetarians

• People with celiac, Crohn’s disease, and cystic fibrosis

• Heredity

• Certain medications

• Regular use of sunscreen

• Northern Latitudes (above that of Atlanta, Georgia)

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