Would someone explain to me...

[Reya]

Reya,

 

You might be interested to know that the later levels of CW *do* include more modern writing. The models for the Diogenes level include: Ben Franklin, Joseph Addison, Richard Steele, and Winston Churchill.

 

I have looked MOST closely at Classical Composition, which is what gave me the huge ACK!!!!! reaction. I've looked closely at independent interpretations and have mostly only glanced through Classical Writing, the program. I hope I have a better chance with it at the next curriculum fair, but even if I like it better, it won't be because it follows the progymnasmata or not. *g*

 

A disclaimer: I'm not going to buy any program, no matter how good, since I can integrate writing with other subjects and take some of the time burden out of it while making it more natural.

 

I do agree about the need for checkboxes that someone else pointed out. It makes it easier on an instructor, but I remain uncomfortable with that at a fundamental level. This, I can say, I do really like:

 

"In fact, the CW Aesop B workbook calls for two papers for each lesson. One is based on the model, the other is to be based on something from the students history lesson, or science lesson, or current literature being read."

 

Oh, and I didn't mean that CW, CC, or any other particular program (okay, I was thinking of Strunk & White--who don't follow their own rules--and WS and the instructions about adding adjectives for interest) teaches a particular style so much as that being a big soapbox of mine. *g* I'm a novelist who writes in two different genres with COMPLETELY unrelated voices, and I am a strong believer in encouraging both natural expression and flexibility of expression--which can go hand in hand quite well. So it's a big bugbear of mine when people say that good writing has almost no adverbs, or each person has only one voice, or whatever.

 

(And, woo-hoo! I'm almost to 50 posts. I'm going to disappear again for a while after that because I'm insanely busy--AGAIN. I'm way behind on a book I want done by the end of May, and then I have another to finish before the end of summer, *whimper*. But I need to post a couple of things for sale that didn't work for us. I did get good news today: Another of my books sold to Italy, and the horrible state of the US economy at least means that I'm getting a lot more for my European translations!)

[Mama Lynx]

Actually, the authors of CW intend their program to be used as a springboard. Ideally, the program is to be used without the workbooks, but with the core ideas, to do exactly as you said in your post. The workbooks are a response to a demand from teachers who did not feel confident in using the program in that manner, and needed more help. The authors do not recommend using the workbooks as a checklist, nor do they recommend jumping through every hoop ... and I don't personally know anyone who uses the curriculum like that.

 

However, after a couple of years of having my hands held by the workbooks, I am now confident enough to use CW as the springboard it was intended to be.

 

I do share your loathing of Writing Strands, however.

[Parrothead]

I did get good news today: Another of my books sold to Italy, and the horrible state of the US economy at least means that I'm getting a lot more for my European translations!)

:hurray:

 

I've followed this thread closely for the last few days. All I can say is that I'm more confused about what to start our writing program with this fall. :lol:

[pixelroper]

:hurray:

 

I've followed this thread closely for the last few days. All I can say is that I'm more confused about what to start our writing program with this fall. :lol:

 

:lol: I hope it was at least entertaining for you :lurk5:

 

And Mama Lynx... that was my impression as well, and I too found the need to get the workbooks to help me organize/articulate the whole thing as I hadn't thought about it in many years and scratched my head, "Writing? hummmm... what does one do?" A little more time to understand how to teach/evaluate/guide and I'm hoping to be able to ditch the workbooks too. I took my learnin for granted as an adult.

[Beth in SW WA]

t just adds so much overhead to the process by introducing texts and positions for the mere purpose on writing about them when it would be ideal to make it an extension of all other activities across the curriculum.

 

Thanks, Reya. You are so right. W/ so little time, we need our subjects to overlap. Writing across curriculum was suggested to me months ago by Momof7 (my inspiration). It is so much more efficient.

 

I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my question about the 5 paragraph essay. I'll need to chew on that and figure out how to spice things up in that department. I have no idea how to implement classical-type writing here. Thankfully w/ middlers, I have a bit of time to research.

 

If you catch a moment, I'd love to hear about your writing projects. You have me extremely curious...:)

[Wildiris]

Hi,

 

I've looked at CW and just could not relate. For some reason I cannot envision the program working for the kind of writing I want my DD to be able to do in her future. More than anything I want my DD to feel comfortable and confident enough in her ability to write that she be able to write at the spur of the moment. You'd be surprised how many adults shy away from writing a quick note or letter without struggling over the grammar and spelling and finally giving up on the task altogether.

 

Writing is a a form of communication that can be eloquent, embellished and embedded with symbolism and allusion, but in the end the writer needs to address its audience and communicate. There are times when the five paragraph essay and the one word sentence convey the meaning the writer intends. I think the hardest part of writing for the young writer is getting at what it is they want to say and getting it down on paper. Is that classical? Is that modern? I have no idea, but it is a contemporary problem.

 

In your original question you ask why the classical method of writing is superior to the modern method of writing, but I'm not too sure one is superior to the other; they are just different. More than anything, you as the parent teacher need to assess what you want for your child be it classical, modern or some hybrid of the two and go for it knowing that your plan will evolve.

 

P.S. I've enjoyed following this thread. Thank you all for your thoughts and contributions.

 

Wildiris

[Jami]

I have looked MOST closely at Classical Composition, which is what gave me the huge ACK!!!!! reaction. I've looked closely at independent interpretations and have mostly only glanced through Classical Writing, the program. I hope I have a better chance with it at the next curriculum fair, but even if I like it better, it won't be because it follows the progymnasmata or not. *g*

 

A disclaimer: I'm not going to buy any program, no matter how good, since I can integrate writing with other subjects and take some of the time burden out of it while making it more natural.

 

I do agree about the need for checkboxes that someone else pointed out. It makes it easier on an instructor, but I remain uncomfortable with that at a fundamental level. This, I can say, I do really like:

 

"In fact, the CW Aesop B workbook calls for two papers for each lesson. One is based on the model, the other is to be based on something from the students history lesson, or science lesson, or current literature being read."

 

Oh, and I didn't mean that CW, CC, or any other particular program (okay, I was thinking of Strunk & White--who don't follow their own rules--and WS and the instructions about adding adjectives for interest) teaches a particular style so much as that being a big soapbox of mine. *g* I'm a novelist who writes in two different genres with COMPLETELY unrelated voices, and I am a strong believer in encouraging both natural expression and flexibility of expression--which can go hand in hand quite well. So it's a big bugbear of mine when people say that good writing has almost no adverbs, or each person has only one voice, or whatever.

 

(And, woo-hoo! I'm almost to 50 posts. I'm going to disappear again for a while after that because I'm insanely busy--AGAIN. I'm way behind on a book I want done by the end of May, and then I have another to finish before the end of summer, *whimper*. But I need to post a couple of things for sale that didn't work for us. I did get good news today: Another of my books sold to Italy, and the horrible state of the US economy at least means that I'm getting a lot more for my European translations!)

 

Reya could you remind me how many children you're teaching and of their ages? It's not in your signature. I'm just wondering what grades you've taught (your child(ren) or in other settings) and how your methods worked.

 

Also, how about some Amazon or website links to your writing? I'm asking, so it's not shameless self-promotion. :)

 

Jami

[Reya]

Reya could you remind me how many children you're teaching and of their ages? It's not in your signature. I'm just wondering what grades you've taught (your child(ren) or in other settings) and how your methods worked.

 

Also, how about some Amazon or website links to your writing? I'm asking, so it's not shameless self-promotion. :)

 

Signature? I don't need no stinkin' signature. ;-)

 

I am currently teaching two K-ers--and no one else! (WHEW!) One's young enough that he won't officially be enrolled in K until next year, but it only matters a little since I'm teaching to their level and not their ages, anyway, and their levels are all over the place. I won't be adding a third (or more) to the mix until nearly four more years.

 

In the past, I have taught writing courses at several levels, from elementary to adults. I've done a number of short workshops, too--online and off-line both. I've also done one-on-one tutoring and lots (and lots...and lots...) of "friendly critiques" by request.

 

I've never been in the position of a self-contained classroom teacher of 5th-8th grade, which would really have been ideal for teaching across the curriculum. Instead, I've found myself teaching an eighth grader how to write better for her history report...or a tenth grader how to do a critical analysis...or a college sophomore how his lab reports should have been written (hence why he failed the last time!)...or helping a high schooler understand all the concepts in Harmon...or showing a college freshman how to analyze a piece for its logical argument...or teaching a workshop on finding and using rhythm in prose...or teaching a creative writing class. But all this has reinforced in me a conviction of how interlocked writing skills are and how much better it is to examine them holistically than to try to teach things in isolation. I have never taught someone to write from complete scratch. This is going to be the most interesting bit to me! The youngest I've *ever* worked with was probably a group of eight-to-nine-year-olds. I've always been "remedial" in one way or another, meaning that I was fixing ingrained habits as well as introducing new concepts, whether I was teaching someone one-on-one or I had a mixed class of ten. (I've never had a large group except in workshop-like settings, too.)

 

Email me off-list and I'll send you more info about my writing, with samples included. :-) (Same goes for anybody else.) I just don't like publicly announcing who I am because even if people ask, it still smacks of self-promotion! (See, she GOT them to ask. Manipulated them into it. You know--that sort of thing.)

 

(And I've hit 50 posts! Hooray!)

[Sarah CB]

"Writing is a a form of communication that can be eloquent, embellished and embedded with symbolism and allusion, but in the end the writer needs to address its audience and communicate. There are times when the five paragraph essay and the one word sentence convey the meaning the writer intends. I think the hardest part of writing for the young writer is getting at what it is they want to say and getting it down on paper."

 

Exactly. I think this is really important as well and it's something that isn't explicitly taught in most writing programs that I've looked at. CW specifically addresses this. They teach students how to analyze a piece of writing and figure out what the author was emphasizing. Then they work with their own words and they try things one way and another way, changing the word choices, changing the grammar, changing this, changing that - and discussing how that changes the author's emphasis. In this way we're learning how to get our meaning across in many different ways and they're becoming flexible with their writing. I think one of my favourite parts of CW is playing with language - finding different ways of saying things and discussing why one works and why one doesn't or why one completely changes the original emphasis.

 

Sarah

[Beth in SW WA]

So, I checked out the Rhetoric and Writing recommendations in WTM for high school. They will take you through not only a 5-paragraph essay, but also help you learn how to apply logic to your arguments, and even do the pro-gym exercises. I didn't buy the books, just looked through them on amazon. That might be enough to give you an idea of where you are and where you're going.

 

Ah, the WTM! Of course I should re-read that section. I have also pre-ordered SWB's new writing book also. I will be stalking her at the WHO convention in June -- so I'll ask her then at one of her workshops some specific questions.

 

I've been avoiding progym because I have no idea what it is.

 

You give more food for thought & great insight. Thank you, Rhondabee!

[LilyK]

Although I agree with everything Reya has said, my son's writing has positively exploded this year with CW Homer. I had the same concerns as Reya (only I could never express them as succinctly and thoroughly as she has.) Especially since we were starting with Homer, I thought, "Who the heck wants to write like Homer in the 21st century?" Yet, so many on this board loved it , we had done IEW to death and were hitting a plateau, so I just jumped in.

 

His writing has really become amazing, not just for his CW projects, but for any essay,letter, or story that he has to write. And I daresay, he does not sound in the least bit antiquated. You have many samples to choose from, but I restricted his CW samples to The Iliad.

 

So Reya, I feel ya , sister. Everything you say makes perfect sense, but I'm converted. I am going to go ahead and have him do Diogenes next year, which has a lot more "modern" selections. By modern, I mean Jane Austen, Erasmus, and Shakespeare.

 

 

BTW,this is the best thread I have ever read on this board.

[Peela]

This thread has been absolutely fascinating and highly educational for me, as well as helping me clarify some things.

 

I used CW for Aesop, and to the end of Homer workbook A. I burned out on it, although the kids were doing some good writing. However, one of my bugbears with the program (and I respect CW highly despite it) is that there wasn't enough time in our days to do it justice, and there certainly wasn't enough time in our days to also give the kids free scope for creative writing assignments, which one child in particular loves, and which gives her the joy of putting her whole energy into writing.

 

So this thread has helped me clarify that I didn't find CW efficient enough, for my needs, even though I already cut out a lot from the workbooks. I personally do find it contrived, however I find all writing programs like that and I have yet to find one that my kids enjoy, because of that (they inherited my free spirit, but probably my negative qualities too!). Although they liked CW best. I am now making up my own assignments for them and bungling along, wondering what to do next, and meanwhile they are producing some good creative writing in spite of my inadequacies. My goals are lower than many here! I would rather we do what we reasonably can, well, than reach too high and want to speak 4 languages and read Latin texts etc.....I am going for less than that, way less, and its still going to be better than what I received, and I went to a good school.

 

I am coming to the conclusion myself that I will not actually be satisfied with any particular writing curriculum, and although I am no expert writer or teacher, I will probably use ideas from the many I have to just make up my own as I go- or use parts of various programs. But it will be relevant to my kids , our subjects etc, rather than a one size fits all program with exercises than become terribly tedious after a while.

[Parrothead]

:lol: I hope it was at least entertaining for you :lurk5:

 

 

 

Oh, I've enjoyed it very much. Still confused, mind you.

 

Now I have a question that might not belong here. How long (years) do most writing programs last? All the way through high school? Have I messed up by waiting until 4th grade to start one?

[Jacey]

so this has been very enlightening! My question is: what would you do in this position....my dd9 (3rd grade) is the product of a ps education up until 6 weeks ago. Unfortunately for her, this has included very poor writing instruction (and little at that) with plenty of writing. In ps they did a lot of journaling and creative writing without knowing "how" to write, and therefore she has developed some atrocious habits and absolutely hates writing to top that off. I believe the philosophy was "immersion" as in, write write write and then you'll become good writers. Oh.....

 

So, where to begin? This is the one area I feel at a complete loss and want to find something to use until the end of the year. I've been in a holding pattern, unable to make any decision. Currently her writing consists of some narrations and a little journaling/creative writing (b/c that's what she knows)-- but believe we need to move on to a more structured format.

 

I'm leaning towards SWB new book WWE for next year.... but want to start something before then. I was thinking of Writing Tales or CW? Do you think these would be appropriate? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!

 

 

Jacey

[Kimber]

I would go with WT, especially if you plan to switch to WWE later.

 

(Edit, the reason I said this is that CW has a learning curve for the teacher. Their curriculum is somewhat cumbersome. If you want something now that won't require so much time, then WT is definitely what you want.)

 

WT has the same great qualities as CW but is open and go for the mom. It's stripped down to the writing essentials with fun added back in for good measure.

 

Good Luck!

[runningirl71]

I just love threads where two different views can be discussed and both views can be respected. I have a lot to think over now . . .

 

I have to say that I have been on both the "Reya" side of thought and the "Beth" side of thought too. I have certain goals for my kids in their studies, and I have always wanted them to be apt in their writing abilities, but I have yet to find a "program" that doesn't feel artificial to me too.

 

I would say that I feel comfortable and like writing myself. And, that has been my goal with my kids in their younger years, just to feel comfortable and *like* it. But now, I would like to take it to the next level of a little bit more formal writing.

 

With that said, I have bought CW and would like to try it. But, I'm afraid of the time factor after reading this thread! To me, writing is one of the most important things I can be teaching, but how do you simplify other subjects to allow more time for this?

 

Beth, I have read your "schedule" and what you are doing in other subjects. How much time do you spend schooling?

 

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread! It has been very insightful, and if I didn't have a toddler kicking me with her feet as she sits on the desk beside me, I could write out other thoughts, but this will have to do for now!:)

[Mama Lynx]

Although I agree with everything Reya has said, my son's writing has positively exploded this year with CW Homer. I had the same concerns as Reya (only I could never express them as succinctly and thoroughly as she has.) Especially since we were starting with Homer, I thought, "Who the heck wants to write like Homer in the 21st century?" Yet, so many on this board loved it , we had done IEW to death and were hitting a plateau, so I just jumped in.

 

His writing has really become amazing, not just for his CW projects, but for any essay,letter, or story that he has to write. And I daresay, he does not sound in the least bit antiquated. You have many samples to choose from, but I restricted his CW samples to The Iliad.

 

So Reya, I feel ya , sister. Everything you say makes perfect sense, but I'm converted. I am going to go ahead and have him do Diogenes next year, which has a lot more "modern" selections. By modern, I mean Jane Austen, Erasmus, and Shakespeare.

 

 

BTW,this is the best thread I have ever read on this board.

 

Right. Unless you've looked deeply at CW, I think it's very easy to cast it as something it's not. It's easy to assume that it's very limited and rigid, and completely out of touch with modern writing. It does have quite a learning curve for the teacher (but I don't think this is a bad thing, at all). However it is a very flexible program, built on a solid foundation that teaches students to analyze a piece of writing, for audience, for author's intent, and for methods of expression; and then to use what the student learned in writing his own pieces.

 

I really don't see how you can go wrong with that.

 

We have had the same experience with Homer. My son's writing has developed by leaps and bounds, and he does not sound the least bit antiquated.

 

The progymnasmata, like any other curriculum or series of exercises, are tools to be used and built upon. But they are extremely good tools.

[Jami]

Hey Angie,

 

I'm not Beth and I haven't used CW yet. But from what I know of it, I think of it as the "spinach" of curriculums. Or any other incredibly nutrient dense food, Avacado perhaps. Yes, there's a lot to it, and yes it will take time both to learn to use and implement. BUT it is not just a writing program! Your grammar will be integrated (though some do still use a separate program alongside) you can use it for your history or science writing, logic is part of it. And then spelling, copywork, dictation, vocab...could all come from that source as well. So yes, it may take more time than any one of those other programs. But the level of integration and "nutrient denseness" is so appealing to me. No wasted calories. But those are just the thoughts of an onlooker and researcher at this point. I'm still a year or so off from jumping in with Aesop. ;)

 

Jami

[Mama Lynx]

Hey Angie,

 

I'm not Beth and I haven't used CW yet. But from what I know of it, I think of it as the "spinach" of curriculums. Or any other incredibly nutrient dense food, Avacado perhaps. Yes, there's a lot to it, and yes it will take time both to learn to use and implement. BUT it is not just a writing program! Your grammar will be integrated (though some do still use a separate program alongside) you can use it for your history or science writing, logic is part of it. And then spelling, copywork, dictation, vocab...could all come from that source as well. So yes, it may take more time than any one of those other programs. But the level of integration and "nutrient denseness" is so appealing to me. No wasted calories. But those are just the thoughts of an onlooker and researcher at this point. I'm still a year or so off from jumping in with Aesop. ;)

 

Jami

 

Jami is right - and I"d like to add that I'm not Beth, either ;-)

 

CW is dense. The workbooks are actually a blessing, and a curse. They are a blessing in that they hold your hand while you learn how to manage the program They're a curse in that if you don't learn how to manage the program, you can end up in a mire of dense workbook pages, not being able to see the forest for the trees.

 

I think that the authors recommend an hour to an hour and a half a day. We don't spend that much time. We cover one "week" of Homer in about two weeks, usually doing the grammar and analysis the first week, and the writing project the second. We're getting into Homer B now, and the writing projects are starting to take even more time; but up until now, we've probably never spent more than 30 minutes a day on CW.

 

Since I have gone through the learning curve and understand the philosophy of the program, I feel free to pick and choose. We don't do all of the analysis and grammar. I often substitute models. I take the CW philosophy and guideline and make it work for us.

 

I know that Beth has her kids put in more time with school than I do; I'm fairly relaxed. Once she answers, I think you'll be able to see how you can approach CW in different ways, and get excellent results.

 

I can tell you how *I* have simplified our subjects: We prioritize Latin and Math (and Greek, but that only takes us 5 minutes a day). Our mornings are Latin, Math, Greek, and Classical Writing. We do all of our grammar via Classical Writing, and reinforce it with Latin. We do not do a vocabulary program. We are light on history and science, but may skip a week of CW writing to write for history, instead. For literature my oldest son is currently reading "Lord of the Rings," and I will often switch out a CW model for a scene from LOTR.

 

I hope that helps, and I hope Beth answers.

[cajun.classical]

Not Beth either, but we've completed Homer A, so I thought I'd offer my 2 cents. For what it's worth, and I say this reluctantly and only to offer a different perspective, I am a former University Composition instructor; I've also taught AP English and writing courses to a variety of grades (K-College). I'm also a published writer and a former editor/ghost writer. So, I think I'm pretty qualified to talk about the needs of modern writing and whether they can be adequately addressed in a program from antiquity. The short answer, Yes! And, how!

 

Everytime I have taught writing, I noticed the same needs over and over: the need to read good models of writing, the need to analyze models, the need to learn to think and structure your thoughts logically, the need to express your thoughts eloquently as well as logically, and on and on. I can honestly say that every need I've ever found in teaching writing has been met in the Classical Writing program. As I delve into the later levels to see where things are headed, I am just blown away! Seriously.

 

I'll give you an example: in every writing class I've taught, students have fallen into one of two categories: the student who takes 20 pages to say something that should have been said in one and the student who turns in a paragraph for a topic that could easily fill 20 pages. Every student fit into one of these categories: too wordy or not developed enough. Classical Writing solved this problem. First students take a paragraph and condense it into its most basic thought with as few words as possible. Then, they take a passage and expand it as large as they can. This is a brilliant exercise. And my son's writing has blossomed from just this one exercise (and CW has so many of these brilliant types of exercises that anticipate many typical writing problems). The condensing exercise is also very useful because I've had students who write very flowery yet say nothing. If you can condense a passage into its most basic parts, then it's easy to spot the lack of substance.

 

Now, that's just one example. I could really gone on. I love this program. In a week of CW, a student covers literary analysis, logic, grammar, rhetoric, and oh yeah, writing too. :)

 

The program is also extraordinarily flexible once you learn your way around. I recommend going through the core and taking notes to give yourself an overview. It really helps.

 

I'd also like to comment on whether or not this type of writing instruction is artificial. Well, yes, just like riding a bike with training wheels is artificial or teaching math with manipulatives or even teaching phonics (the sounds of letters in isolation). There is a sense in which ALL teaching is artificial. But we don't stay there. The training wheels come off, the manipulatives disappear and we learn to read whole books without sounding out the words. We are building a foundation for higher level learning; but we shouldn't confuse the two. We shouldn't complain that the foundation is so foundational.

 

As far as the time involved with CW, it is very flexible. Spend as little or as much time as you like. Don't let the workbook make you feel like you are behind. It's a tool; don't let it dictate the pace. We do a full lesson a week and have not found it burdensome at all, spending about 3.5 - 4 hours a week. Of course, I'm very comfortable tweaking. And having looked at Diogenes, I can see what areas are key skills that are built upon later and which ones aren't as necessary.

 

So there you go, take it for what it's worth. Honestly, my opinion as a homeschool mom who has seen her son's writing blossom with CW is probably more valuable than my opinion as a professional. But if it makes anyone feel better, it's my professional opinion as well.

[runningirl71]

I can tell you how *I* have simplified our subjects: We prioritize Latin and Math (and Greek, but that only takes us 5 minutes a day). Our mornings are Latin, Math, Greek, and Classical Writing. We do all of our grammar via Classical Writing, and reinforce it with Latin. We do not do a vocabulary program. We are light on history and science, but may skip a week of CW writing to write for history, instead. For literature my oldest son is currently reading "Lord of the Rings," and I will often switch out a CW model for a scene from LOTR.

 

I hope that helps, and I hope Beth answers.

 

Yes, this does help! Latin and math are our *must* subjects too. I'm glad to hear logic is incorporated in CW too! I have the books, but have not delved into looking at them as we're concentrating on finishing the school year! I want to make sure I go through them thoroughly. I knew that grammar was incorporated, but didn't realize all the other subjects! That's great! And, I like the analogy Jami used as CW being the spinach!:lol:

[genie]

We cover one "week" of Homer in about two weeks, usually doing the grammar and analysis the first week, and the writing project the second.

 

 

I'm curious about your reason for covering one "week" over two weeks. Is it simply a scheduling thing, or would one hour be "too much" for a day, or are you trying to spread the program out and last longer? Or...???

 

And do you plan to continue this way through future levels?

 

TIA!

[Mama Lynx]

I'm curious about your reason for covering one "week" over two weeks. Is it simply a scheduling thing, or would one hour be "too much" for a day, or are you trying to spread the program out and last longer? Or...???

 

And do you plan to continue this way through future levels?

 

TIA!

 

We do it this way because my oldest son hates to write, and does the work slowly. If we did one week's worth of work in a week, we would be at it for an hour or more a day. We tried that, and it really does not make for pleasant days. I don't mind if it takes him longer to get through the program, and I have some faith that as he matures, and gets used to writing, his speed will pick up.

 

So yes, for us, one hour is "too much." For now.

[Beth in SW WA]

Look what I found from last April!

 

I really miss thought-provoking conversations like this. This thread was fascinating. And newsflash! We are starting CW next week w/ Kathy Weitz. Maybe NOW I'll understand the progym...:)

[Julieofsardis]

I missed it the first time around. This was really a great thread.

[Amber in AUS]

Great thread. I have just waded thru it. Not looking forward to making a writing decision for us in the years to come.

[Annabel Lee]

Thanks for bumping this up! What a great read! So... what grade is CW intended to start in? :001_smile:

[Beth in SW WA]

Thanks for bumping this up! What a great read! So... what grade is CW intended to start in? :001_smile:

 

My kids are starting at ages 11 & 13. Others start much earlier, but not many start later.

 

We start today, actually! The kids are assembling their notebooks. :)

[Pretty in Pink]

Yes, this *is* a great thread! I thoroughly enjoyed reading through this one and appreciate the valid, thought-provoking points made on both sides of the discussion. This conversation has given me much to think about. Thanks!

[H.S. Burrow]

Look what I found from last April!

 

I really miss thought-provoking conversations like this. This thread was fascinating. And newsflash! We are starting CW next week w/ Kathy Weitz. Maybe NOW I'll understand the progym...:)

 

 

I'm another who's really glad you found this!! I have been researching CW Older Beginners program and trying to justify the cost.

 

I have spent the better part of the past hour reading this thread - and have found my justification!

 

 

THANK YOU!!!!!:)

[angela in ohio]

I'm finding this thread incredibly informative and interesting! Of course, I am now officially terrified of teaching writing, afraid that I will make the wrong choice whichever way I go, and worried that I won't be able to spot the flaws in the program, and therefore avoid them or improve the curriculum at all. My kids will never mature in their writing, they won't get into college, they'll be completely unemployable, and they'll have to live with me forever.

 

ACK!

 

:lol:

 

Melissa

 

Don't be afraid. It's really not all that complicated, and there are great resources available.

 

ETA: Oops, just realized this was an old thread... I thought it sounded familiar.

Edited January 6, 2009 by angela in ohio

[FlockOfSillies]

I agree with Shannon, Reya. Seriously. So much of what you wrote resonates with me -- especially all the stuff about modern essay structure and outlining!

 

I'm a fairly decent writer, and I'm confident in what I can produce for myself. But teaching it is another matter. Am I covering everything I need to? What about stuff they never got around to teaching me in high school? Stuff I've never heard of? Am I doing it at the right time for my students? In the right sequence? These are the kinds of questions that roll around in my brain when it comes to writing programs. And with five kids, I need something open-and-go that lets me get to the meat of the teaching, instead of spending scarce free time planning and organizing.

 

I think we're all looking for the holy grail of middle school writing programs. Can't you just "make it so"? :-D

[Guest]

bump

[swellmomma]

excellent post! I had heard CW mentioned a few times but didn't really know what it was. We have been using writing strands here, but based on this thread it sounds like that is pretty much considered the bottom of the barrel for writing programs. Hmm, something to ponder for next year.

[OnTheBrink]

Not Beth either, but we've completed Homer A, so I thought I'd offer my 2 cents. For what it's worth, and I say this reluctantly and only to offer a different perspective, I am a former University Composition instructor; I've also taught AP English and writing courses to a variety of grades (K-College). I'm also a published writer and a former editor/ghost writer. So, I think I'm pretty qualified to talk about the needs of modern writing and whether they can be adequately addressed in a program from antiquity. The short answer, Yes! And, how!

 

Everytime I have taught writing, I noticed the same needs over and over: the need to read good models of writing, the need to analyze models, the need to learn to think and structure your thoughts logically, the need to express your thoughts eloquently as well as logically, and on and on. I can honestly say that every need I've ever found in teaching writing has been met in the Classical Writing program. As I delve into the later levels to see where things are headed, I am just blown away! Seriously.

 

I'll give you an example: in every writing class I've taught, students have fallen into one of two categories: the student who takes 20 pages to say something that should have been said in one and the student who turns in a paragraph for a topic that could easily fill 20 pages. Every student fit into one of these categories: too wordy or not developed enough. Classical Writing solved this problem. First students take a paragraph and condense it into its most basic thought with as few words as possible. Then, they take a passage and expand it as large as they can. This is a brilliant exercise. And my son's writing has blossomed from just this one exercise (and CW has so many of these brilliant types of exercises that anticipate many typical writing problems). The condensing exercise is also very useful because I've had students who write very flowery yet say nothing. If you can condense a passage into its most basic parts, then it's easy to spot the lack of substance.

 

Now, that's just one example. I could really gone on. I love this program. In a week of CW, a student covers literary analysis, logic, grammar, rhetoric, and oh yeah, writing too. :)

 

The program is also extraordinarily flexible once you learn your way around. I recommend going through the core and taking notes to give yourself an overview. It really helps.

 

I'd also like to comment on whether or not this type of writing instruction is artificial. Well, yes, just like riding a bike with training wheels is artificial or teaching math with manipulatives or even teaching phonics (the sounds of letters in isolation). There is a sense in which ALL teaching is artificial. But we don't stay there. The training wheels come off, the manipulatives disappear and we learn to read whole books without sounding out the words. We are building a foundation for higher level learning; but we shouldn't confuse the two. We shouldn't complain that the foundation is so foundational.

 

As far as the time involved with CW, it is very flexible. Spend as little or as much time as you like. Don't let the workbook make you feel like you are behind. It's a tool; don't let it dictate the pace. We do a full lesson a week and have not found it burdensome at all, spending about 3.5 - 4 hours a week. Of course, I'm very comfortable tweaking. And having looked at Diogenes, I can see what areas are key skills that are built upon later and which ones aren't as necessary.

 

So there you go, take it for what it's worth. Honestly, my opinion as a homeschool mom who has seen her son's writing blossom with CW is probably more valuable than my opinion as a professional. But if it makes anyone feel better, it's my professional opinion as well.

 

 

This is the best post in this thread. Thank you! I've been toying with switching from CW to something else but you've helped me decide to stick with it (especially since I already have it for next year!).

[SophiaH]

This is the best post in this thread. Thank you!

 

:iagree: Angelina, I always appreciate reading your thoughtful and wise posts!

[Alana in Canada]

What a fabulous discussion. This really ought to be put in a library somewhere--to be used as the "go to" thread whenever someone wrings their hands over teaching writing and the progym in particular--as I have been doing for months!

 

Many thanks to whomever dredged it back up.

 

(PS: Is there anyway to create a "library" on the message board?)

[Guest]

I suppose I should be proud of winning the most hits and top posting question/discussion. Now I am famous!!~!!!

[plimsoll]

Have I messed up by waiting until 4th grade to start one?

 

No. We only started a structured writing program in 4th grade, and I believe we have had success with it because we waited.

[sarahv]

Not Beth either, but we've completed Homer A, so I thought I'd offer my 2 cents. For what it's worth, and I say this reluctantly and only to offer a different perspective, I am a former University Composition instructor; I've also taught AP English and writing courses to a variety of grades (K-College). I'm also a published writer and a former editor/ghost writer. So, I think I'm pretty qualified to talk about the needs of modern writing and whether they can be adequately addressed in a program from antiquity. The short answer, Yes! And, how!

 

Everytime I have taught writing, I noticed the same needs over and over: the need to read good models of writing, the need to analyze models, the need to learn to think and structure your thoughts logically, the need to express your thoughts eloquently as well as logically, and on and on. I can honestly say that every need I've ever found in teaching writing has been met in the Classical Writing program. As I delve into the later levels to see where things are headed, I am just blown away! Seriously.

 

I'll give you an example: in every writing class I've taught, students have fallen into one of two categories: the student who takes 20 pages to say something that should have been said in one and the student who turns in a paragraph for a topic that could easily fill 20 pages. Every student fit into one of these categories: too wordy or not developed enough. Classical Writing solved this problem. First students take a paragraph and condense it into its most basic thought with as few words as possible. Then, they take a passage and expand it as large as they can. This is a brilliant exercise. And my son's writing has blossomed from just this one exercise (and CW has so many of these brilliant types of exercises that anticipate many typical writing problems). The condensing exercise is also very useful because I've had students who write very flowery yet say nothing. If you can condense a passage into its most basic parts, then it's easy to spot the lack of substance.

 

Now, that's just one example. I could really gone on. I love this program. In a week of CW, a student covers literary analysis, logic, grammar, rhetoric, and oh yeah, writing too. :)

 

The program is also extraordinarily flexible once you learn your way around. I recommend going through the core and taking notes to give yourself an overview. It really helps.

 

I'd also like to comment on whether or not this type of writing instruction is artificial. Well, yes, just like riding a bike with training wheels is artificial or teaching math with manipulatives or even teaching phonics (the sounds of letters in isolation). There is a sense in which ALL teaching is artificial. But we don't stay there. The training wheels come off, the manipulatives disappear and we learn to read whole books without sounding out the words. We are building a foundation for higher level learning; but we shouldn't confuse the two. We shouldn't complain that the foundation is so foundational.

 

As far as the time involved with CW, it is very flexible. Spend as little or as much time as you like. Don't let the workbook make you feel like you are behind. It's a tool; don't let it dictate the pace. We do a full lesson a week and have not found it burdensome at all, spending about 3.5 - 4 hours a week. Of course, I'm very comfortable tweaking. And having looked at Diogenes, I can see what areas are key skills that are built upon later and which ones aren't as necessary.

 

So there you go, take it for what it's worth. Honestly, my opinion as a homeschool mom who has seen her son's writing blossom with CW is probably more valuable than my opinion as a professional. But if it makes anyone feel better, it's my professional opinion as well.

 

Awesome post, Angelina. Thanks :lol::lol::lol:

[Jennefer@SSA]

to say "Thank You!" for bringing this thread back around. I missed it the first time and have spent most of my morning pouring over all the opinions offered. This has been very helpful and thanks to each of you who contributed.

 

I can't wait until I have enough experience under my belt to offer such sage advice! :D:D:D

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

On 4/9/2008 at 10:00 PM, Sarah CB said:

Going through Aristotle's ten categories to find synonyms blew me away. I'm pretty good at coming up with synonyms myself, but to actually go through and think about something from ten different angles, writing every description that comes to mind, well, let's just say that we never end up with antiquated descriptions nor do we feel hampered or stifled in any way. If anything CW has blown the lid off of our writing.

Sorry for resurrecting an old post, but where do I find the instructions for finding synonyms using Aristotle's ten categories? I know what those 10 categories are. TIA.