Lack of class rank--does this affect home schoolers?

[Jane in NC]

Something hit me today. My son applied for some local scholarships where I thought he had a sporting chance. Recipients are being announced and I see that the winners in two cases were valedictorians at their respective high schools. In both cases, applicants were graded on several criteria which included academic achievement. GPA, ACT/SAT, and class rank were requested.

 

Perhaps my charming and brilliant son ;) could not compete or maybe he was a close second. I don't know. Colleges do not seem to be concerned about class rank. Do local philanthropic organizations still consider it to be important?

Edited June 20, 2010 by jane.kulesza

[Nicole M]

Something hit me today. My son applied for some local scholarships where I thought he had a sporting chance. Recipients are being announced and I see that the winners in two cases were valedictorians at their respective high schools. In both cases, applicants were graded on several criteria which included academic achievement. GPA, ACT/SAT, and class rank were requested.

 

Perhaps my charming and brilliant son ;) could not compete or maybe he was a close second. I don't know. Colleges do not seem to be concerned about class rank. Do local philanthropic organizations still consider it to be important?

 

But shouldn't your charming and brilliant son be ranked #1 in his class? ;)

[Jane in NC]

But shouldn't your charming and brilliant son be ranked #1 in his class? ;)

 

1 of 1. First, last, and dear to his mother's heart.

[Nicole M]

1 of 1. First, last, and dear to his mother's heart.

 

:D

 

This reminds me. One day I was talking to my oldest in the kitchen and called him Dear One. My youngest must have been about four or five at the time. He came tearing in from the other room, shouting, "Hey! HEY! He's not your Dear One! I am! He's your Dear Two!" He had a look on his face like, come on, woman, let's get this ranking straight!

 

I will ask around about the scholarships because I have no idea. Where has Kareni been? She would know. She knows everything.

[Kareni]

Where has Kareni been? She would know. She knows everything.

 

 

I only wish I knew everything. I'd happily settle for 5 or 10%!

 

Jane, as regards scholarship and college applications, we elected to go with Nicole's suggested rank of 1 of 1. It got my daughter into college, but sadly no luck on the scholarship front here.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Nicole M]

I only wish I knew everything. I'd happily settle for 5 or 10%!

 

Jane, as regards scholarship and college applications, we elected to go with Nicole's suggested rank of 1 of 1. It got my daughter into college, but sadly no luck on the scholarship front here.

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

There you are! I've missed you.

 

Bummer about the scholarships.

[Kathy in Richmond]

I dunno. I wish I knew what it took to be successful at winning the local scholarship money. My ds, who was very competitive in college admissions, applied for several local scholarships (church, credit union, Dad's place of business, etc). He received not one penny.

 

At the time I wondered if his essays were weak or whether those mommy grades on the required transcript were viewed with suspicion. But I think that your idea about class rank is equally plausible.

 

Who knows? My dd elected not to spend much time on scholarship applications after seeing her brother's results. She only applied for the NLE scholarship, and the results of that one haven't come out yet. Instead, she worked at finding a decent paying part-time job.

 

~Kathy

[Brenda in MA]

Jane,

 

I really doubt whether the class rank issue had anything to do with the loss of local scholarships. I'm wondering whether homeschool bias was at work. I think that there is a lot of deep-seated home-town favoritism involved in a lot of local contests. The directors/board may be alums of your local public high school, and they feel great supporting the kids from that school.

 

My son did win one very small, local scholarship, but this scholarship was directed in memory of a local veteran, and I think it was my son's participation in the Boy Scouts and the many Memorial Day & Veteran's Day parades he marched in that got him that one. He was also up for one at our local church that he really should have won due to the amount of time & energy he contributed to programs there. It went to a young lady from the local public school who was much less qualified. He's still bitter about loosing that one.

 

Life isn't always fair, but I'm so glad for the opportunity to homeschool, even if it cost my son a few small scholarships.

 

Brenda

[creekland]

My experience is extremely limited as I just have my oldest going to college, but what we've found is that it matters on who's giving the scholarships. Actually, it's not class rank that matters, it matters based on their opinion of homeschoolers in general...

 

Since I work in our local ps I have decent access to the guidance office and their "not necessarily politically correct, but 100% truthful" comments. Most scholarship committees absolutely won't consider homeschoolers - even some that say they don't care. Others actively seek them, but they are FEW, FEW, FEW. Most local businesses and groups give scholarships through our school's "Dollars for Scholars" program and we were told homeschoolers can't apply (AFTER we were told they could and oldest sent in his application).

 

Anyway, my oldest won a local ec group scholarship, but he was part of that organization for 8 years and did a LOT for (and in) that group. He's also still in competition for a local private family scholarship that seemed impressed by his interview (but I'm going off his words and don't know the competition). We're hopeful, but not holding our breath.

 

Our American Legion Scholarship he lost, but his 10th grade brother won a savings bond for his level of the competition, so they most certainly don't discriminate against homeschoolers. The competition was just TOUGH (middle son was 1st of 300+ entries - and only one savings bond for each two year level!). I'm not sure of the numbers for the seniors.

 

Oldest son lost our credit union scholarship, but they only allow one to win for 2 years. I think most that win are entering junior or senior year of college. I'm encouraging him to reapply next year anyway - as did the credit union. He'll have references from his profs at that time.

 

He hasn't heard anything else from any of the "basic" ones he's applied for. In general, I think the competition is tough and he's not my writer. Many scholarships go off written essays, so he's at a disadvantage with his math and leadership skills. He does reasonably well in scholarships that require interviews.

[Jane in NC]

My son has won a 4-H scholarship which is not surprising given his level of involvement within the organization.

 

Our electric company has a scholarship which required an essay but also considered GPA/test scores/class rank. Part of the application was definitely geared toward traditionally schooled kids. So I phoned the contact person to ask some questions which she did not know how to answer initially since no homeschooler had ever applied for the scholarship. I think Brenda's comment, echoed by Creekland, may be accurate:

 

The directors/board may be alums of your local public high school, and they feel great supporting the kids from that school.

 

A number of our local scholarships are only available to students who attend public schools. This is explicitly stated. So perhaps homeschool bias is indeed a factor.

 

I don't want to sound like a whiner and I hope that I have not come across in that way. But one wonders....

[Karenciavo]

:D

 

This reminds me. One day I was talking to my oldest in the kitchen and called him Dear One. My youngest must have been about four or five at the time. He came tearing in from the other room, shouting, "Hey! HEY! He's not your Dear One! I am! He's your Dear Two!" He had a look on his face like, come on, woman, let's get this ranking straight!

 

This is so cute.

[emubird]

An article on class rank being dropped by some high schools:

 

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/06/18/classrank/

 

If we were ranked when I was in high school, I wasn't aware of it. Has this become more common recently?

[Jane in NC]

 

If we were ranked when I was in high school, I wasn't aware of it. Has this become more common recently?

 

The article you linked reflects my perception: private schools usually do not rank students whereas public schools do.

 

One of my son's friends attended a public school in Massachusetts which does not rank. His mom told me that there was one incident in the application process where she feels rank may have made a difference. Her son was hoping to qualify for a merit scholarship at a private college in which the stated criteria included GPA, test score and class rank. He was one tenth of a point below the GPA; his test score was considerably above. She had wondered if class rank may have tipped things in his favor, i.e. an argument could have been made that his school was less generous with grading.

[TravelingChris]

I was looking at various colleges data sets. Apparently, many, many schools don't rank anymore. I figured this out because many of the college data sets showed things like 40% no rank, 35% no rank, 50% no rank, etc. THen there is what is being ranked. Colleges that are not strictly number based look at which way are things ranked. If there is no weighing and grades are the only way of ranking, I wouldn't expect the best students to be ranked the best since a B in Calculus BC is worth more than an A in Consumer Math or at least should be. WIth no weighing, the kids with lame course choices can come out ahead. Since some school districts forbid weighing, more of those are deciding to not rank. We have a stupid situation here because the system changed midstream for kids in high school. The school used to not weigh and have a different grading scale. Then they changed the grading scale and weighed the grades. My dd started high school in Fl where the district had 90+ = A and honors were .5 and college or AP were 1. extra so I kept that system when we moved. That is the system this very large school district changed to midstream (for kids my dd's age and slightly older or younger).

[Samuel]

I think the type of grades on the transcript might matter more than class rank; the feedback I received (quite a few years ago, now) was that the successful AP test results and college grades validated the rest of my transcript. This is one reason why I push all the home schoolers I know to take at least one or two outside classes in their junior year/1st semester senior year. From the perspective of someone who has also been involved on the awarding end, "mommy grades" can, absent other information, mean anything.

 

I also won a scholarship from a local organization that I'd been involved in--low applicant pool scholarships are wonderful, but often hard to find out about.

 

States that have a central application process are wonderful; I know that Oregon has been good about awards to home schoolers.

[Nan in Mass]

My sons, one ps-ed and one homeschooled, both got a local grant. Apparently being a homeschooler wasn't a problem. It is one of those somebody-has-money-and-wants-to-encourage-students-in-their-field scholarships. Their school applied for it for them. We didn't have anything to do with it.

[Teachin'Mine]

:D

 

This reminds me. One day I was talking to my oldest in the kitchen and called him Dear One. My youngest must have been about four or five at the time. He came tearing in from the other room, shouting, "Hey! HEY! He's not your Dear One! I am! He's your Dear Two!" He had a look on his face like, come on, woman, let's get this ranking straight!

 

:lol:

 

I would think all home schoolers would be considered valedictorians - well maybe except for twins - in which case one would have to settle for the title of first in class. :D

[Bostonian]

Colleges do not seem to be concerned about class rank.

 

Colleges don't care about high school grades (and thus class rank)? Where did you get that idea? They are either first or second in importance for admissions to selective colleges (the other factor being standardized test scores).

[Jane in NC]

Colleges don't care about high school grades (and thus class rank)? Where did you get that idea? They are either first or second in importance for admissions to selective colleges (the other factor being standardized test scores).

 

Your logic does not follow for me. I do believe that colleges care about grades. More importantly colleges care that students have done well in demanding courses like honors or AP. But have you not seen articles on schools which have ten or more valedictorians? Or on schools that no longer rank students? Or on the many variations in grading scales which produce rank?

 

Grades are indeed important. Class rank is another issue--at least in my experience. We try to learn from each other on this board. Perhaps you could relate your personal experiences with admissions officers to share the philosophy of class rank that you have encountered when talking to admissions personnel.

[Bostonian]

Perhaps you could relate your personal experiences with admissions officers to share the philosophy of class rank that you have encountered when talking to admissions personnel.

 

My kids are in elementary school, so I have not been speaking to admissions officers, but the importance of class rank for college is common knowledge. You could read the book "The Gatekeepers" by NYT education columnist Jacques Steinberg to see how one selective college (Wesleyan in CT) uses class rank. In each applicant's file, test scores and class rank were front and center.

 

College guidebooks do show "what fraction of students who attend college X were in the top Y% of their class", where Y% may be 5% and/or 25%, and selective colleges don't want these stats to go down, or their rankings will fall.

[Jane in NC]

My kids are in elementary school, so I have not been speaking to admissions officers, but the importance of class rank for college is common knowledge. You could read the book "The Gatekeepers" by NYT education columnist Jacques Steinberg to see how one selective college (Wesleyan in CT) uses class rank. In each applicant's file, test scores and class rank were front and center.

 

College guidebooks do show "what fraction of students who attend college X were in the top Y% of their class", where Y% may be 5% and/or 25%, and selective colleges don't want these stats to go down, or their rankings will fall.

 

I have read The Gatekeepers.

 

But how do you account for students like my son's best friend who attended a high school that does not rank? This is not uncommon.

[Bostonian]

Colleges care about their U.S. News and World Report rankings, which depend in part on their "student selectivity", which depends on the fraction of student in the top 10% and 25% of their classes. How they handle schools which don't rank, I don't know.

 

http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-colleges/2009/08/19/how-we-calculate-the-college-rankings.html?PageNr=3

Student selectivity (15 percent). A school's academic atmosphere is determined in part by the abilities and ambitions of the student body. We factor in the admissions test scores for all enrollees who took the Critical Reading and Math portions of the SAT and the Composite ACT score (50 percent of the selectivity score); the proportion of enrolled freshmen (for all national universities and liberal arts colleges) who graduated in the top 10 percent of their high school classes or (for institutions in the universities—master's and baccalaureate colleges) the top 25 percent (40 percent); and the acceptance rate, or the ratio of students admitted to applicants (10 percent). The data are for the fall 2008 entering class. In order to better represent the entire entering class, we are now using a value that takes into account the admissions test scores of all entering students who took the Critical Reading and Math portions of the SAT and the Composite ACT score. Previously, we used only the scores of the test that had the majority of students taking it. The scores of the test that the majority of students take are displayed on the ranking table.

 

The College Board's take on the importance of class rank in admissions is at http://professionals.collegeboard.com/guidance/applications/rank . If the rank is available, most colleges look at it.

[Luckymama]

If you look at the Common Data Set for a particular school (google is your friend, or check the alphabetized list on College Confidential), you will find a section listing what factors are considered to be "very important" or "important" or "not considered" in admissions (in chart form). Schools vary in their use of standardized test scores, GPA, class rank, state residency, legacy and so on.

 

The trend now in competitive high schools (public, charter and private) is to NOT list official rank on transcripts. My son's school will release the official rank to a college/university if it is considered to be "very important" to that institution. Otherwise, no rank is listed.

 

BTW the student selectivity info noted above is based on the percentage of students/high schools who report class rank. That information is also found in the Common Data Set--------------something like "of the 53% of applicants who reported their class rank, 33% were in the top 10% of their graduating class..."

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

An article on class rank being dropped by some high schools:

 

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/06/18/classrank/

 

If we were ranked when I was in high school, I wasn't aware of it. Has this become more common recently?

 

I'm guessing that if you were at the top, you'd be aware of your rank. Those in the middle, probably not so much.

[Bostonian]

I'm guessing that if you were at the top, you'd be aware of your rank. Those in the middle, probably not so much.

 

Your moniker on WTM may be appropriate :001_smile:, but you may be right. I was 2nd in my class of almost 500 (472 IIRC).

[Bostonian]

Thanks to LuckyMama for the info about the Common Data Set. Looking at Harvard's http://www.provost.harvard.edu/institutional_research/Provost_-_CDS2008_2009_Harvard_for_Web_Clean.pdf I see in question C7 that officially, academic GPA is considered, but class rank is NOT considered . So the use of class rank is less common than I thought.

[Storm Bay]

My kids are in elementary school, so I have not been speaking to admissions officers, but the importance of class rank for college is common knowledge. You could read the book "The Gatekeepers" by NYT education columnist Jacques Steinberg to see how one selective college (Wesleyan in CT) uses class rank. In each applicant's file, test scores and class rank were front and center.

 

College guidebooks do show "what fraction of students who attend college X were in the top Y% of their class", where Y% may be 5% and/or 25%, and selective colleges don't want these stats to go down, or their rankings will fall.

 

 

Class rank isn't important everywhere. Of course, I'm thinking of both Canadian & American schools.

 

Class rank is problematic for homeschoolers, and not important due to the very small class size (almost everyone would be first in their class, and if you have twins and put one second, they might be considered the bottom of their class--that happened to one poster here as I recall.) Many times colleges have specific application requirements set up just for homeschoolers where class rank isn't even required. I suggest you read some books such as Homeschooling Highschool before making such sweeping conclusions. Also, since requirements change over time, you ought to check with the colleges your dc apply for.

 

Also, this is a very old thread I haven't seen for a long time!

[Storm Bay]

Thanks to LuckyMama for the info about the Common Data Set. Looking at Harvard's http://www.provost.harvard.edu/institutional_research/Provost_-_CDS2008_2009_Harvard_for_Web_Clean.pdf I see in question C7 that officially, academic GPA is considered, but class rank is NOT considered . So the use of class rank is less common than I thought.

 

Next time I'll try to remember to finish the thread. I've been far too busy to get on here often this summer.

[Robin in DFW]

I believe many high schools are no longer going to rank students because it is not a true indicator of one's intelligence.

 

Some students take regular classes and are ranked extremely high because the classes are not as challenging and therefore, they get an "easy" high grade.

 

Some students rank lower but have taken all honors and AP level courses which are much more difficult.

 

Even a lower grade in an honors or AP course is surely worth more than that 100 in basket weaving??? Yes???

[QueenCat]

 

If we were ranked when I was in high school, I wasn't aware of it. Has this become more common recently?

 

I graduated from ps in 1983. We were ranked. It was on each and every one of our report cards from 10th-12th grades.

[Quiver0f10]

Hmm one of the schools my son is interested in does want class rank. Not sure what to put?

[emubird]

Hmm one of the schools my son is interested in does want class rank. Not sure what to put?

 

I'd put either 1 of 1 or "not applicable". Although the 1 of 1 seems a little silly, some schools seem to need a number.

 

However, I think all the schools my daughter applied to had an option of saying her high school didn't rank students and that's what we checked.

 

If we were ranked back in high school, I'm pretty sure I would have known if they had let that information out to the students. Our school was very big on advertising who had won this that and the other thing (I know, because I won a lot of them). And the crowd I hung out with, unfortunately, was all about comparing test scores and such. It is possible the school ranked but that it was confidential information -- so confidential that they didn't even tell the students. I know that a lot of the school's test score information wasn't told to the students, so it's likely they wouldn't have told anyone rankings either.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Something hit me today. My son applied for some local scholarships where I thought he had a sporting chance. Recipients are being announced and I see that the winners in two cases were valedictorians at their respective high schools. In both cases, applicants were graded on several criteria which included academic achievement. GPA, ACT/SAT, and class rank were requested.

 

Perhaps my charming and brilliant son ;) could not compete or maybe he was a close second. I don't know. Colleges do not seem to be concerned about class rank. Do local philanthropic organizations still consider it to be important?

 

I think that lack of class rank makes test scores much more important. When students apply to the Naval Academy Summer Seminar (which also counts as a pre-application), they put in any test scores, class rank and gpa. Without a gpa or class rank, the only way to judge a homeschool student is on test scores. If these are low or if they haven't taken the exam, then they are much less likely to be accepted for the summer program.

 

They may also find that they need to produce test scores or improve test scores in order to be considered as a viable candidate.

[Excelsior! Academy]

I haven't read the other responses, but Dh's sister put Valedictorian on her application and she was homeschooled. Aparently it worked.