I gasped at my dd's annual pediatric visit just hours ago...

[Peela]

You want a form handed out "based on history with patient and observation of a child"? So you want it based on what a doctor assumes your family is like and what they can remember of them? And what about the 11/12 yo 'new patient'. The doctor doesn't have any history or previous observations of the child. Maybe they come from some great family too. Maybe not. Maybe the kid is desperate to fit in at their new school and going about it all the wrong way. Maybe not.

 

But what's the doctor supposed to do then? Look and see what kind of shoes they are wearing?? (Sorry! Couldn't help myself with that one!:lol:)

 

No....it should not fall within any doctor's area of work or expertise to ascertain that sort of thing at all, or try to ascertain it. It can be a social worker's job, or a teen pregnancy youth group's job, but it is simply not my doctor's job to find out if their 11yo patients are having sex. Not their business.

Why do we ALL need Big Brother (in the name of "experts who know best") breathing down our necks, because of the actions of a few? Why do we actually buy into that? Because we don't want to be repsonsible. We live in a society where instead of accepting consequences, we want someone else- the "experts" if possible- to take responsiblity, so we have someone to blame. We give up our power.

If we do that as a society, we do get what we deserve- others controlling our children and our lives way beyond what is healthy or necessary. I can't understand why people actually want that.

[IsabelC]

Why do we ALL need Big Brother (in the name of "experts who know best") breathing down our necks, because of the actions of a few? Why do we actually buy into that? Because we don't want to be repsonsible. We live in a society where instead of accepting consequences, we want someone else- the "experts" if possible- to take responsiblity, so we have someone to blame. We give up our power.

If we do that as a society, we do get what we deserve- others controlling our children and our lives way beyond what is healthy or necessary. I can't understand why people actually want that.

 

That is very true. And I think it's a big part of the reason why so many people are ideologically opposed to home birth, home education or anything else that involves less deferral to authorities and institutions.

 

I have a question, though. Although I'm pretty much a loony liberal compared to most parents on this board (my kids have known about sex, menstruation, childbirth etc since about age 2 and I would consider it shocking for an 11yo with normal cognitive development not to know about it), I do have an idea of where more conservative people are coming from. But what I'm finding difficult to understand is, if you know that the medical establishment does not uphold your moral values regarding purity, why do you subject your children to its influence in the first place? Why not ditch the whole annual medical? Or seek out an alternative practitioner who is more sympathetic to and respectful of your approach? Or write/speak to the doctor in advance, stating that they are not allowed to discuss any sexual matters with your daughter? It is sometimes the case that people go to extremes with respecting medical professionals, and find it difficult to stand up for themselves and their children. However, given that home educators are, on the whole, used to being different and asserting their rights to be different, why does this not transfer over to interactions with pediatricians?

[Peela]

I have a question, though. ... if you know that the medical establishment does not uphold your moral values regarding purity, why do you subject your children to its influence in the first place? Why not ditch the whole annual medical? Or seek out an alternative practitioner who is more sympathetic to and respectful of your approach? Or write/speak to the doctor in advance, stating that they are not allowed to discuss any sexual matters with your daughter? It is sometimes the case that people go to extremes with respecting medical professionals, and find it difficult to stand up for themselves and their children. However, given that home educators are, on the whole, used to being different and asserting their rights to be different, why does this not transfer over to interactions with pediatricians?

 

Exactly- very good point.

Why do so many homeschoolers, who are so adamant about not letting their kids be corrupted by the education system, not feel the same about the medical system?

Just like we don't throw all of education out with schools, and we dont even throw out educational experts or systems that warrant genuine respect, we dont need to throw out all respect for science and modern medicine by taking our power back from the "institutionalisation" of medicine which is hell bent on disempowering people.

We should be applying the same discrimination to our doctors and medical institutions as we do to education.

[Haiku]

Exactly- very good point.

Why do so many homeschoolers, who are so adamant about not letting their kids be corrupted by the education system, not feel the same about the medical system?

 

 

Because while it is relatively easy to acquire the skills and knowledge necessary to give your child an excellent education at home, the same can't be said for medical knowledge. We also have laws that restrict medical treatments and implements to those who have an MD/DO. I don't really think the two are comparable. Perhaps my perspective is skewed by having two children with medical needs that I am incapable of meeting at home, but ... I don't really get into doctor-bashing. Just because someone takes their kids to the doctor and/or believes that most doctors have their hearts in the right place/know what they are talking about does not mean that we are disempowered or are undiscriminating. It means we have made choices, and those choices might not be the ones you'd make.

 

Tara

[fivetails]

 

:willy_nilly:

[Rivka]

No....it should not fall within any doctor's area of work or expertise to ascertain that sort of thing at all, or try to ascertain it. It can be a social worker's job, or a teen pregnancy youth group's job, but it is simply not my doctor's job to find out if their 11yo patients are having sex. Not their business.

Why do we ALL need Big Brother (in the name of "experts who know best") breathing down our necks, because of the actions of a few? Why do we actually buy into that? Because we don't want to be repsonsible. We live in a society where instead of accepting consequences, we want someone else- the "experts" if possible- to take responsiblity, so we have someone to blame. We give up our power.

If we do that as a society, we do get what we deserve- others controlling our children and our lives way beyond what is healthy or necessary. I can't understand why people actually want that.

 

But not all children will see a social worker, and a "teen pregnancy youth group" is probably a little late to address the issue of sex.

 

Do you really think that an 11-year-old (or an any-year-old, really) having sex is not a medical issue? Is it purely a moral problem, with no potential consequences for the child's health and safety? Really?! I would say that an 11-year-old having sex is at serious risk of medical and mental health complications - and that very much makes it the child's pediatrician's business.

 

You invoke personal responsibility as a justification for why experts should not inquire. But 11-year-olds - particularly the ones whose judgment is poor enough that they're having sex when they're barely pubescent - don't have such stellar abilities to understand and predict likely consequences that it seems fair to put it all in their hands. "Oh, you've got PID and now you're infertile? You should have thought of that before you had early sexual contact and didn't bring it up spontaneously with your doctor. Too bad, but it's no one's fault but your own."

 

Or is it the parents' personal responsibility? That doesn't seem fair to the kids either. If their parents are in denial, or insufficiently vigilant, or so morally rigid that the kids are afraid to tell them what they're doing, or unengaged, or absent, or self-righteous enough to believe that only "bad" kids will have sex, should that preclude the kids' right to adequqte health care? What a high price for kids to pay, just for not having the "right" parents.

[Haiku]

I would say that an 11-year-old having sex is at serious risk of medical and mental health complications - and that very much makes it the child's pediatrician's business.

 

 

:iagree:

 

Sexual health care is absolutely a pediatrician's business. It's health care. Just because we place a moral judgment on sexuality doesn't mean it's not fundamentally a health issue.

 

Tara

[Daisy]

What is wrong with the middle ground, folks?

 

I would have been slightly shocked by the form.

 

I would have filled it out with my daughter, skipping any questions that I knew she was going to have NO CLUE about.

 

I really would have no problem with the doctor asking my daughter if she was having sex. She just would have been grossed out and said, "No Way."

 

While I don't appreciate intrusive questions, I can understand why a doctor would find it necessary to occasionally ask. But just as with my own doctor, I have no problem saying, "Can you explain the medical necessity of this question because it feels rather intrusive?"

 

I'm teaching my daughter to say the same thing when the doctor asks her something that makes her feel uncomfortable.

 

What I do find irritating is when doctor's don't believe your answer. I was rushed to ER at age 20 for abdominal pain. The ER docs were convinced it was a bad pregnancy. I kept explaining over and over again that I wasn't sexually active but they refused to believe it. Big surprise, I turned out to have kidney stones.

[Firefly]

But what I'm finding difficult to understand is, if you know that the medical establishment does not uphold your moral values regarding purity, why do you subject your children to its influence in the first place? Why not ditch the whole annual medical? Or seek out an alternative practitioner who is more sympathetic to and respectful of your approach?

 

That's pretty much what we've done. Obviously if we had chronic medical issues it would be different, but that's not the case. We don't do well visits. I'll only bring the kids in for things I can't treat at home, and to be honest, I can't remember the last time that was!

 

That said, for us it has nothing to do with moral standards (we've always talked openly about sex) and everything to do with overstepping boundaries. *I* decide when/how to talk to my children about sex. No one else. If someone wants to keep their kid in the dark until their wedding night, I might not agree with that, but I respect that that's their right. I really dislike this mentality that the the government knows better for our children than we do. :glare:

 

Look, it's the same with homeschooling. The fact is some people (albeit a minority, IME) will not properly educate their children. These children may fall through the cracks and struggle. I'm sorry that that happens, but I don't think my right to homeschool should be taken away because some people are abusing it.

[profmom]

I didn't read the entire thread, but just wanted to say that I took all three kids for their annual check-ups this week. There were no forms or questions like that for my 11 yo ds or 13 yo dd (my oldest two kids).

[Peela]

Because while it is relatively easy to acquire the skills and knowledge necessary to give your child an excellent education at home, the same can't be said for medical knowledge. We also have laws that restrict medical treatments and implements to those who have an MD/DO. I don't really think the two are comparable. Perhaps my perspective is skewed by having two children with medical needs that I am incapable of meeting at home, but ... I don't really get into doctor-bashing. Just because someone takes their kids to the doctor and/or believes that most doctors have their hearts in the right place/know what they are talking about does not mean that we are disempowered or are undiscriminating. It means we have made choices, and those choices might not be the ones you'd make.

 

Tara

 

I appreciate your unique perspective and it i scertainly different if one had medical conditions that can benefit from modern science's unique cutting edge treatments. To me, that would be the equivalent of needing university level "education"/"medical treatment" for which I would seek extra help. Thats what they are there for, and I too would use them.

 

I don't however agree that the medical issue is much different from the educational one in the normal day to day health arena. In past years, mothers and grandmothers knew how to deal with all sorts of things nowadays women dont have a clue about- it was passed down. I think we have been told we must leave it up to the experts for so long, we believe them even when our own common sense tells us otherwise, and that's the line over I encourage people to step back from.

 

And yes Daisy, I totally agree some middle ground would be commonsensical, but your middle ground is quite extreme to some people who wont even question a doctor's judgement, let alone stand up to it.

[Wheres Toto]

But not all children will see a social worker, and a "teen pregnancy youth group" is probably a little late to address the issue of sex.

 

Do you really think that an 11-year-old (or an any-year-old, really) having sex is not a medical issue? Is it purely a moral problem, with no potential consequences for the child's health and safety? Really?! I would say that an 11-year-old having sex is at serious risk of medical and mental health complications - and that very much makes it the child's pediatrician's business.

 

You invoke personal responsibility as a justification for why experts should not inquire. But 11-year-olds - particularly the ones whose judgment is poor enough that they're having sex when they're barely pubescent - don't have such stellar abilities to understand and predict likely consequences that it seems fair to put it all in their hands. "Oh, you've got PID and now you're infertile? You should have thought of that before you had early sexual contact and didn't bring it up spontaneously with your doctor. Too bad, but it's no one's fault but your own."

 

Or is it the parents' personal responsibility? That doesn't seem fair to the kids either. If their parents are in denial, or insufficiently vigilant, or so morally rigid that the kids are afraid to tell them what they're doing, or unengaged, or absent, or self-righteous enough to believe that only "bad" kids will have sex, should that preclude the kids' right to adequqte health care? What a high price for kids to pay, just for not having the "right" parents.

 

:iagree:

[Daisy]

 

And yes Daisy, I totally agree some middle ground would be commonsensical, but your middle ground is quite extreme to some people who wont even question a doctor's judgement, let alone stand up to it.

 

True enough. My best friend wouldn't dream of ever questioning a medication or even asking a clarifying question of her doctor. She holds him in near awe. I find that ridiculous and actually very dangerous.

[Parrothead]

No....it should not fall within any doctor's area of work or expertise to ascertain that sort of thing at all, or try to ascertain it. It can be a social worker's job, or a teen pregnancy youth group's job, but it is simply not my doctor's job to find out if their 11yo patients are having sex. Not their business.

Why do we ALL need Big Brother (in the name of "experts who know best") breathing down our necks, because of the actions of a few? Why do we actually buy into that? Because we don't want to be repsonsible. We live in a society where instead of accepting consequences, we want someone else- the "experts" if possible- to take responsiblity, so we have someone to blame. We give up our power.

If we do that as a society, we do get what we deserve- others controlling our children and our lives way beyond what is healthy or necessary. I can't understand why people actually want that.

I agree with most of what you have said. I think it became a cause and effect. Because we have given up our power, started relying so heavily on the experts, we are seeing the consequences of that with intrusive medical care. We also see it in the areas of education and general child care.

 

When we try to back away from what western medicine dictates, we get branded as the bad guy. So now we have medical experts trying to determine which 11-year old is having sex. And because of all the different models (abstinence, sex ed in Kinder, etc) of education and child care and hands-off parents we have 11-year olds having sex. It is a conundrum.

 

Exactly- very good point.

Why do so many homeschoolers, who are so adamant about not letting their kids be corrupted by the education system, not feel the same about the medical system?

Just like we don't throw all of education out with schools, and we dont even throw out educational experts or systems that warrant genuine respect, we dont need to throw out all respect for science and modern medicine by taking our power back from the "institutionalisation" of medicine which is hell bent on disempowering people.

We should be applying the same discrimination to our doctors and medical institutions as we do to education.

Again, I agree with you. I used to be nondiscriminating in my choice of doctor. Open the phone book in the newest town find a doctor's name that sounds friendly and make an appointment. I got lucky most of the time. Then I got sick and didn't get so lucky.

 

Now, if someone asks, I say yeah, check out every single option available. I don't think we should blindly follow a doctor's diagnosis and treatment plan simply because the doctor said this is the best way. A second, third and sometimes forth opinion is best. And if the least harmful, least intrusive treatment is alternative medicine then by all means pursue it.

 

I can see Peela's homeschool analogy. We check out curriculum constantly looking for the best option for our individual children. Shouldn't we put that same energy into our medical decisions for our children and ourselves?

[Perry]

 

What I do find irritating is when doctor's don't believe your answer. I was rushed to ER at age 20 for abdominal pain. The ER docs were convinced it was a bad pregnancy. I kept explaining over and over again that I wasn't sexually active but they refused to believe it. Big surprise, I turned out to have kidney stones.

 

I understand how frustrating it is, but you would not believe how many people lie about this. The doctors *have* to rule out a pregnancy because the consequences for missing an ectopic pregnancy are deadly. It is standard of care to do a pregnancy test in ALL women with acute abdominal pain, whether they say they're sexually active or not.

 

Most patients are telling the truth. They know that. But they can't guess which ones are and which ones aren't. A pregnancy test is simple, cheap, and lifesaving.

[Wheres Toto]

I understand how frustrating it is, but you would not believe how many people lie about this. The doctors *have* to rule out a pregnancy because the consequences for missing an ectopic pregnancy are deadly. It is standard of care to do a pregnancy test in ALL women with acute abdominal pain, whether they say they're sexually active or not.

 

Most patients are telling the truth. They know that. But they can't guess which ones are and which ones aren't. A pregnancy test is simple, cheap, and lifesaving.

 

My oldest dd periodically goes to the ER for injuries to her ankles, knees, etc. from dance. They usually need to do an x-ray and they ALWAYS do a pregnancy test. They will not take her word for it that she's never had sex. This started when she was about 13.

[Daisy]

I understand how frustrating it is, but you would not believe how many people lie about this. The doctors *have* to rule out a pregnancy because the consequences for missing an ectopic pregnancy are deadly. It is standard of care to do a pregnancy test in ALL women with acute abdominal pain, whether they say they're sexually active or not.

 

Most patients are telling the truth. They know that. But they can't guess which ones are and which ones aren't. A pregnancy test is simple, cheap, and lifesaving.

 

Yes, I was hoping they'd believe me a bit more though. I was terrified and a young man (nurse, doctor??) was trying to give me an internal in ER while I was non-stop puking from pain. It was my first internal.

 

So, I don't know, it seems it might be nice for the doctor at least assume the patient is telling the truth and attempt to be more understanding even if standard tests do need to be run.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Daisy

[Penelope]

Yes, I was hoping they'd believe me a bit more though. I was terrified and a young man (nurse, doctor??) was trying to give me an internal in ER while I was non-stop puking from pain. It was my first internal.

 

So, I don't know, it seems it might be nice for the doctor at least assume the patient is telling the truth and attempt to be more understanding even if standard tests do need to be run.

 

You don't have to be sexually active to have pain caused from something wrong with female organs.

[Mejane]

What is wrong with the middle ground, folks?

 

 

Nothing! I think your response would be completely appropriate, and don't see any reason to get so worked up over this.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I know this thread has been going on forever, but I just remembered that our pediatrician did bring up this subject when ds was 11. He asked me, "Do you or your husband want help talking to your son about puberty and sex?" I told him that we had it covered. And that was that. I appreciated that he offered his services if we so desired but also that he understood that we were the primaries on this and he would just be there for support.

[coffeefreak]

What is wrong with the middle ground, folks?

 

I would have been slightly shocked by the form.

 

I would have filled it out with my daughter, skipping any questions that I knew she was going to have NO CLUE about.

 

I really would have no problem with the doctor asking my daughter if she was having sex. She just would have been grossed out and said, "No Way."

 

While I don't appreciate intrusive questions, I can understand why a doctor would find it necessary to occasionally ask. But just as with my own doctor, I have no problem saying, "Can you explain the medical necessity of this question because it feels rather intrusive?"

 

I'm teaching my daughter to say the same thing when the doctor asks her something that makes her feel uncomfortable.

 

 

 

 

I can see Peela's homeschool analogy. We check out curriculum constantly looking for the best option for our individual children. Shouldn't we put that same energy into our medical decisions for our children and ourselves?

 

:iagree: