Is Teaching Textbooks behind most ? My 1st grader scored high in TT 4 !

[blessedmom3]

I was considering to use TT in the future as my 6 yo is a "Competent Carl" (see Cathy Duffy ) and likes to do math independently. But I gave him the placement test for TT3 and 4 . He scored high in TT4 and only missed the multiplication exercises , which he hasn't been introduced yet , except a little in Singapore . We have used Horizons 1 , Singapore 1A & B and now CLE math . He is not gifted in math , just average but after using all these programs + all kind of games and manipulatives , he has his basic facts down . However , I am surprised to see how he is still a 1st grader and scored on TT 4 ??

 

If TT is so much behind , why is it so popular ? Even Sonlight recommends it. I don't get it .

 

What else is there that is more independent ,except CLE ?

[abbeyej]

Yes, it's behind others. Generally about a year or so behind the "label" on the course, from what I can tell. If your son has been using Singapore, Horizons, and some supplements and doing well, he's likely working roughly a year ahead of average for the grades on those materials individually. So if we say TT3 is more like 2, and TT4 is more like 3, and your ds is working at a solid 2nd grade level, his results don't surprise me.

 

Personally, I would Completely Ignore "learning style" suggestions for a 6yo. Children *change* -- especially with regard to learning styles -- as they grow and mature. What you *imagine* a 6yo may need at 9 or 10 may or may not be accurate when you actually reach that age.

 

It sounds like you've found good, solid materials that work for him at this age. Stick with those until they don't work so well. Then find something else good and solid that fits who he has become.

 

Perhaps, if you really want something independent (and perhaps online) for him, you should look at EPGY math? But, again, I'm fond of Singapore and Horizons together (and some fun supplements), and I wouldn't be in a hurry to change those as long as they're working.

[johnandtinagilbert]

WARNING: This will get ugly. TT threads and rigor always do. So after my post, :auto: I'm so oughta here :)

 

My suggestion has little to do with TT, and more with math in general.....not to be snarky or ugly, but a dc as young as yours has no business doing math independently. If you continue with Horizons or Singapore (which I would encourage), you can teach several examples from the TM, then let him loose to work out the lesson for the day, but to stick him solo for math would be detrimental and dare I say, irresponsible. Computer math for fun at this age....just my opinion after 12 years of home schooling.

 

Not being a meany, just trying to encourage you to stop for a second and consider a few words: 2nd grader, independent math. They really don't go well together...even if he tested so in Duffy's book.

 

Best wishes on both your decision and this thread....:lol: poor you. You just don't know what's coming!

[Orthodox6]

WARNING: This will get ugly. TT threads and rigor always do. So after my post, :auto: I'm so oughta here :)

 

My suggestion has little to do with TT, and more with math in general.....not to be snarky or ugly, but a dc as young as yours has no business doing math independently. If you continue with Horizons or Singapore (which I would encourage), you can teach several examples from the TM, then let him loose to work out the lesson for the day, but to stick him solo for math would be detrimental and dare I say, irresponsible. Computer math for fun at this age....just my opinion after 12 years of home schooling.

 

Not being a meany, just trying to encourage you to stop for a second and consider a few words: 2nd grader, independent math. They really don't go well together...even if he tested so in Duffy's book.

 

Best wishes on both your decision and this thread....:lol: poor you. You just don't know what's coming!

 

Perhaps my :auto: needs to follow yours down the turnpike ?!

 

I never, never, . . . [Did I say "never" ?] . . . would abandon a young student to study math on his own. Some children and teens are born with math abilities so strong that they can pick up new concepts with seeming lack of effort, and run with it successfully. The objectively-counted quantity of such students is very small. Mathematics is to be taught !

 

. . . and, yes, TT shamelessly inflates their "grade labels". We tried the TT4 book, only to discover that it covers a mixture of math taught through other math programs in grades 2 and 3. The program is so easy to use that the student forgets everything covered ! [i need an avatar for hiding under a manhole cover !]

Edited May 5, 2010 by Orthodox6

[EKS]

 

If TT is so much behind , why is it so popular ?

 

TT is so popular because it is incredibly easy to use.

[blessedmom3]

I did not know TT threads might get "hot" . Why ?

Even if he would do it independently , I would still stick my nose because that's how I am . He would only have the impression that he is alone ,but I would be behind him :)

I like the idea of TT but I have to research more about it. Or maybe just stick with what it works like you said .

[Beth in SW WA]

I never, never, . . . [Did I say "never" ?] . . . would abandon a young student to study math on his own.

 

I agree. A steady diet of computer-based math for early elementary would not be my routine of choice (for our fam) -- but for filler, TT will be ideal for us.

 

I'm like a broken record today. I wrote this on an earlier thread regarding TT:

 

I was thrilled with TT 6 & 7 (for grades 5 & 6) for my older dc (after an excellent foundation in Saxon). I purchased TT 3 for dd 7 for fall. We'll also do Horizons 2, some Singapore and RS games.

 

TT 3 will be great for the days when I can't teach a lesson, I'm driving big kids around town -- or just feeling like a slacker. It'll get the job done without any mom-guilt.

[Homeschooling6]

TT is so popular because it is incredibly easy to use.

 

Does it get more challenging in the upper grades? If my 4th grade dd tested into the 6th or 7th level would that mean it would be at her ability and she will learn?

Probably silly questions but am really wondering......:confused:

[johnandtinagilbert]

I did not know TT threads might get "hot" . Why ?

Even if he would do it independently , I would still stick my nose because that's how I am . He would only have the impression that he is alone ,but I would be behind him :)

I like the idea of TT but I have to research more about it. Or maybe just stick with what it works like you said .

because many people disagree on the rigor, or lack thereof, and also if it will produce math savy dc in higher levels, prepared for college math. People who love TT get offended and those who cation have often not used the program....like me, I haven't used it, but have witnessed the results locally and was not impressed, in addition, I've had friends who used it and their children were less successful (test scores dropped) after a year or two of TT....you can't listen to me though b/c I've never used it, so my opinion on the matter is useless :)

 

It's popular b/c it's easy to use.

 

Does it get more challenging in the upper grades? If my 4th grade dd tested into the 6th or 7th level would that mean it would be at her ability and she will learn?

Probably silly questions but am really wondering......:confused:

Can't answer your questions b/c I'm not qualified, but I wanted to say, hi. I've been thinking of you this week. :grouphug: Hope all is well.

[EKS]

Does it get more challenging in the upper grades? If my 4th grade dd tested into the 6th or 7th level would that mean it would be at her ability and she will learn?

Probably silly questions but am really wondering......:confused:

 

We have only used the geometry program. I am not personally familiar with the programs for the other levels, but in reviewing the tables of contents for the upper level books, they appeared to be one semester to one year behind the programs we've used. Since the geometry program is not part of that sequence, it is pretty much on level, though it is not by any stretch of the imagination an honors course. I directly compared TT Geometry to Jacobs Geometry and they covered essentially the same things. However, when my son failed a chapter test in TT, I had him go over the equivalent chapter in Jacobs, and while the geometry itself was almost identical in what was covered, the algebra knowledge expected and used was much higher in the Jacobs book (some problems required factoring polynomials). Since my son had used Jacobs Algebra, he had no trouble.

[SquirrellyMama]

I think it is like other programs that are behind grade level. I have a 3rd grader using TT4. She has had problems with some of it but it seemed about right for her ability. She might have been a bit more challenged in TT5. I have a 1st grader using Rod and Staff 3. Do I think he is gifted? No. I think Rod and Staff is way behind grade level also. Some math is above the average level and some is below the average level. You can choose to put your child in a higher level of one course that is behind or behind in a course that is ahead. Hope that is understandable.

[8filltheheart]

You are not alone. When my current 5th grader was in 2nd grade (completing Horizons 3), she made a 100 on the 6th grade placement test and a only missed a couple on the 7th.

 

She was in reality only ready to do 4th grade math.

 

I agree with I think Faith and Orthodox 6......forget the classification and most of all, teach.

 

As to why it is so popular, these are the inferences I have gleaned from reading posts by advocates on this forum.........struggling math students do well.......parents that aren't confident in their math knowledge don't have to teach......it is independent........it is on the computer.

[mycalling]

If it was Level D instead of supposedly grade 4, would you have a problem allowing your child to do it?

 

We did Math on the Level the beginning of last year. Entirely only concept-based, no arbitrary grade levels. Do you know how many math concepts need to be covered between Pre-K and Pre-Algebra? A measly 146!!:001_huh: After these 146, your child will entirely be prepared for Algebra. How much repetition can you assume is in all math curricula touting 110-180 concepts in math EACH year??

[Orthodox6]

We have only used the geometry program. I am not personally familiar with the programs for the other levels, but in reviewing the tables of contents for the upper level books, they appeared to be one semester to one year behind the programs we've used. Since the geometry program is not part of that sequence, it is pretty much on level, though it is not by any stretch of the imagination an honors course. I directly compared TT Geometry to Jacobs Geometry and they covered essentially the same things. However, when my son failed a chapter test in TT, I had him go over the equivalent chapter in Jacobs, and while the geometry itself was almost identical in what was covered, the algebra knowledge expected and used was much higher in the Jacobs book (some problems required factoring polynomials). Since my son had used Jacobs Algebra, he had no trouble.

 

These are the two geometry programs which we have used so far. DH taught both (to different sons). He preferred Jacobs, but was satisfied with TT. Our more "math adept" son used Jacobs.

[8filltheheart]

If it was Level D instead of supposedly grade 4, would you have a problem allowing your child to do it?

 

We did Math on the Level the beginning of last year. Entirely only concept-based, no arbitrary grade levels. Do you know how many math concepts need to be covered between Pre-K and Pre-Algebra? A measly 146!!:001_huh: After these 146, your child will entirely be prepared for Algebra. How much repetition can you assume is in all math curricula touting 110-180 concepts in math EACH year??

 

Yes, I would.

[Homeschooling6]

We have only used the geometry program. I am not personally familiar with the programs for the other levels, but in reviewing the tables of contents for the upper level books, they appeared to be one semester to one year behind the programs we've used. Since the geometry program is not part of that sequence, it is pretty much on level, though it is not by any stretch of the imagination an honors course. I directly compared TT Geometry to Jacobs Geometry and they covered essentially the same things. However, when my son failed a chapter test in TT, I had him go over the equivalent chapter in Jacobs, and while the geometry itself was almost identical in what was covered, the algebra knowledge expected and used was much higher in the Jacobs book (some problems required factoring polynomials). Since my son had used Jacobs Algebra, he had no trouble.

 

Thank you, giving me more to chew on :D

[LittleHouseHomeschool]

I think most people would say that it is not behind, but I'm beginning to wonder.

 

My son, at age 12 scored into TT's Algebra I after using CLE 6th grade. But when I look at the material covered within TT Alg I and compare it with a well known rigorous Algebra I text, I see that he is not ready for Algebra I by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I've tested him into a more rigorous pre-algebra program and he will move slowly through that book. I think it will take him 18 months to move through it. The rigor is absolutely obvious when you compare the programs side by side.

[Heather in VA]

I don't think it's any more behind than Saxon. When my dd was in 2nd grade she tested into pre-algebra in Saxon (Saxon 8/7) and TT. I think this is a combination of the placement tests not really being all that great and the programs being more "average" rather than "rigorous".

 

Heather

[LittleHouseHomeschool]

I did not know TT threads might get "hot" . Why ?

Even if he would do it independently , I would still stick my nose because that's how I am . He would only have the impression that he is alone ,but I would be behind him :)

I like the idea of TT but I have to research more about it. Or maybe just stick with what it works like you said .

 

 

I didn't know that TT's thread get hot either. :confused:

[HollyDay]

TT threads can get really, um, interesting. So, I'm going to try to sneak in here and hopefully get my point across in a nice way. TT is behind other programs in content and difficulty. A couple years ago, my then 3rd grader tested easily into TT 5. It was not hard for her, but it did more fast for her. The pace did not necessarily match her maturity level.

 

My oldest did TT 7 in 6th grade and pre-Algebra in 7th. I was given an awesome deal on MUS Algebra 1 and decided to use that for 8th. Dd was no way prepared for Algebra 1. We were surprised and not sure what direction to go. When I did the Saxon placement test, it was a toss up between Saxon 87 and algebra 1/2. She did well in TT. The Math 7 challenged her a bit more than pre-algebra though. But, she did not enough basic information to do well with MUS, which assumed she was solid on her pre-algebra skills (negative numbers, exponents, order of operation, etc).We are doing Saxon 1/2 now and will move into Saxon Algebra 1 next year.

 

I would recommend sticking with 1 program. TT, like other homeschool directed programs (IMHO), is a different scope and sequence than "mainstream" programs like Saxon, Abeka, BJU, etc. I'm not talking rigor here, but content. HTH

[mamato4girls]

I agree with this. I LOVED TT, at first, 2 years ago when we started with it. Now we are done and over our "love" with it. I feel it is behind a bit, but there also isn't enough 'drill' or repitition. Meaning, BJU<,Abeka, and others similar will have extra problems if a child is not catching on right away, TT doesn't offer this (not using the DVD anyway).

 

 

TT threads can get really, um, interesting. So, I'm going to try to sneak in here and hopefully get my point across in a nice way. TT is behind other programs in content and difficulty. A couple years ago, my then 3rd grader tested easily into TT 5. It was not hard for her, but it did more fast for her. The pace did not necessarily match her maturity level.

 

My oldest did TT 7 in 6th grade and pre-Algebra in 7th. I was given an awesome deal on MUS Algebra 1 and decided to use that for 8th. Dd was no way prepared for Algebra 1. We were surprised and not sure what direction to go. When I did the Saxon placement test, it was a toss up between Saxon 87 and algebra 1/2. She did well in TT. The Math 7 challenged her a bit more than pre-algebra though. But, she did not enough basic information to do well with MUS, which assumed she was solid on her pre-algebra skills (negative numbers, exponents, order of operation, etc).We are doing Saxon 1/2 now and will move into Saxon Algebra 1 next year.

 

I would recommend sticking with 1 program. TT, like other homeschool directed programs (IMHO), is a different scope and sequence than "mainstream" programs like Saxon, Abeka, BJU, etc. I'm not talking rigor here, but content. HTH

[Homeschooling6]

I don't think it's any more behind than Saxon. When my dd was in 2nd grade she tested into pre-algebra in Saxon (Saxon 8/7) and TT. I think this is a combination of the placement tests not really being all that great and the programs being more "average" rather than "rigorous".

 

Heather

 

I didn't know Saxon was considered behind :001_huh:.

[Heather in VA]

I didn't know Saxon was considered behind :001_huh:.

 

Well that's kind of my point. People don't consider Saxon behind. I think both TT and Saxon are pretty standard - not advanced but not remedial. But people consider TT behind because of these kinds of results in their placement tests. But the same kind of results in placement tests for Saxon don't get Saxon a "behind" label. I know that TT chooses in their upper levels to delay some concepts to a higher class than "normal" but that is something they are clear about. I don't use TT and I don't believe that it's the most challenging thing out there, but I do think that a lot of the bad press comes from people saying 'hey my kid tested 3 grades ahead so this must be lousy' when they don't apply the same logic to other programs that routinely have the same thing happen.

 

Heather

[Barefoothomeschooler]

I use TT 5 and 6 with my girls (11 and 12) but I also use MUS (which is amazing IMO). TT is easy and I keep them on their grade level and they enjoy is so It can't be bad. but MUS pushes them and you can do as little or as much of the written lessons that you want. We have had much benefit from just the DVD's. My boys (5 and 6) do only MUS and I might give them TT just for fun review when then get to the levels that I have.

[Brindee]

About a month after my dd turned 10 I had her do the Saxon Placement Test and the TT Placement Test. She'd just done about 3/4 of Saxon 76 (she disliked it tremedously, so couldn't finish it). I wanted to see how the levels compared. The Saxon test placed her well into Algebra 1. The TT test placed her in Pre-Algebra. She liked the DVD idea, so we went with that. Parts of it challenged her, but it was a very good level to help re-gain her confidence.

 

I think TT did themselves a disservice by labeling their levels as they did! But, if those who choose TT do research before buying, they will find out how they have "creative labeling" for levels, and when they do the placement test, consider which level they are closest to, and go with it, they will have better success! If you buy Chalkdust Pre-Algebra when your child is ready for the Pre-Calculus Level, and base what you think of Chalkdust on that--you'd say Chalkdust is too easy! Many kids want/need a more rigorous program, fine, TT isn't the most rigorous program out there, that's very true! But if you want a program that has DVD's, Step-by-Step Solutions for every single problem, good explanations, and a program that's not too rigorous, TT is a good choice. If the criteria is rigorous, and you buy TT at too low of a level, then say it's too easy and not rigorous enough, then that's not right!

 

DD would not have been ready for a different Pre-Algebra, such as Chalkdust, at all! I understood that! But she really liked the format, it DID help her learn and understand what and why she was learning something, and the level chosen was just what she needed to help her succeed, yet challenge her some too. I was very happy with it, and so was she!

 

After that year, we decided to try another program. Those did NOT advance her any more than the TT P-A had, but they gave her more confidence. This year we tried CLE 8--NEAT program, I liked it! But, it didn't work for dd. :( So, now we're back to TT. I know, we should've stayed in the first place, I can't go change that though, so we're just moving forward. She's comfortable with it, learning well, remembering well, and I enjoy reading the success stories on here about those who have gone the whole highschool route with TT and did very well on the SAT/ACT tests! :D

Edited May 6, 2010 by Brindee
spelled whole--whol! Fixed it! :D

[Liza Q]

I am not in a hurry with my children. I kind of like that TT is *behind* - I feel like the curriculum is not rushing them! I had that problem with Saxon with my older ones and then with Singapore with the younger ones.

 

My 11yo struggles a bit with math, so TT6 has been good for her in the 6th grade. My 10yo is stronger in math so he is using TT5 in the 4th grade. They start each lesson independently but come to me when they get something wrong or don't understand a new concept so I am keeping an eye on how they are doing.

 

Maybe I am wrong about applying this to math but - I think that children develop at different paces. Not all kids are ready to learn to carry or divide at the same age! Slow and steady works for my children and right now TT and some math games, drill sheets and flashcards are helping my children learn.

 

But - I don't see any reason why the OP should switch to TT. Stick with what is working!

[Cinder]

We have used Horizons 1 , Singapore 1A & B and now CLE math . He is not gifted in math , just average but after using all these programs + all kind of games and manipulatives , he has his basic facts down . However , I am surprised to see how he is still a 1st grader and scored on TT 4 ??

 

 

If your son has been using Singapore, Horizons, and some supplements and doing well, he's likely working roughly a year ahead of average for the grades on those materials individually.

 

I had a similar experience years ago with ds taking the Saxon placement test. At the time he was doing Singapore PM 4 and Abeka 5. He begged to switch to Saxon, so I gave him the placement test. He scored into 87 even though when I checked the table of contents for 87 and 76 he had only covered probably half of what was in 76.

 

We didn't switch, BTW. Turns out ds just wanted to do his math in a notebook like his friends. :tongue_smilie:

 

Cinder

[mycalling]

I have both an 8yo and 12yo using TT5. There's freedom once you get out of the trappings of grade levels.;)

[1shortmomto4]

Personally, it bugs me when I read that TT is behind - behind what? One person's standards to another? That they are behind because they should be prepared to do calculus in 9th grade?

 

My ds is in 4th - we've used BJU through 3rd and things were fine but because he has dsygraphia and dsylexia the reading of word problems, instructions, and doing problems added to the challenge of learning new math skills. I love BJU but I could see my ds needed some help in the approach of how we do math - hello TT. He probably could have done TT 5 but I didn't even do the pre-test because I knew we hadn't focused enough on his times tables (I'm not a driller and don't believe in it) so we did TT4. While they don't teach the times tables per se, the not-so-obvious-to-the-kid's-eye approach is great. They don't see a page of 25 problems of the same thing over and over. The lesson is spoken to them on the computer, each problem is read to them and you can have it re-read as many times as you want, lots of encouragement when the answer is correct and when it is wrong, you can choose to watch the answer done correctly. We are currently working on conversions of feet into inches - the 12 times table really - but he is learning a new skill and practicing another. He loved the writing checks unit and balancing the checkbook - life skills/real math. I did supplement with Times Tales but the growth I've seen and the retention - that is what matters. In the lower grades when using the DVD, they have a bonus round which is just fun - no pressure but it, again, helps practice, without a big ole worksheet full of math problems, what needs to be practiced and it builds up their confidence level. The only thing I do to make the program more user-friendly for my dsygraphic child is write the problems that are equations for him to solve on a white-board rather than pencil and paper.

 

I know there is a big push to have kids doing advanced math skills earlier and earlier but I keep reading over and over again how the kids are reaching the college levels and many kids are failing the basic college math classes - is faster/advanced really better? I doubt for all kids - some, but not all.