Teaching Textbooks - Author Responds to Criticisms! Check it out!

[Kelli in TN]

Kelli, Charon wasn't being flip in his response. He was dead on in his answer to you.

 

 

 

Oh, absolutely not. I never thought so for a minute! I meant what I said, I really won't know until I know. Is she made of the stuff to keep banging on the door when opportunity seems closed off to her, or is she type to stuff her hands in her pockets and go home? We'll know in a few short years!

 

Scary stuff for a parent. Nobody prepared me for this part of mommyhood.

[GraceinMD]

It is a simple matter of fact as to whether or not a student of TT can do the same kind of problems as a student of Saxon or Singapore. It seems almost certain that they can't. That's it. Maybe I'm wrong -- then prove it with problems. Show me the problems that students can do after TT.

 

....and the students coming out of it are less equipped to work hard problems than they are coming out of most of the other programs. That is not a matter of opinion nor is it a matter of student or parental preference. It is a simple matter of fact.

 

Charon, I'm curious what you are basing your assertions on --- you very well may be correct (I have no horse in this race; we're still in Singapore Elem Math, and I don't yet know what we'll be using for PreAlg, Alg, Geom, Calculus, etc.), but I am wondering what the evidence is. Are there comparisons of how students test after using TT, or VT, or Gelfand, or Program X? I understand that the scope/sequences of these various programs may be different, and that the TT problems (for example) may not seem as hard - but do you know of any direct comparisons, or studies, or hard data that would help those of us who are not yet at the point of choosing middle/high school math? Anything but anecdote?

 

Thanks!

[Kimber]

I realized that after I re-read. I'm glad you didn't. It is very daunting for us parents to have to send our babies off into the real world.

 

But some days, I can't wait for the day. (fewer than most, but it happens)

[LilyK]

Kelli, based on your post, you seem to be sweet, humble, caring, and concerned about your kids' education. I will dare to call you a wonderful mom without actually meeting you.

 

TT is not a favorite with me, neither are a lot of other curriculums. However, I do have two friends whose daughters progressed nicely through TT in high school, and are doing well in the math at our local community college. Now, neither of these girls are going to go on to any math higher than the basic GE requirement.

 

If your kids are not going to be science or engineering majors, TT is fine. No, more than fine. It is clear, thorough, and gets the basics done. What more can you ask for?

 

Now if your kids want to go on to real brain-twisting, higher math, you might want to check out other self-teaching programs like Chalkdust, or even get them a tutor for their 11th and 12th grade.

 

Lots of encouragement and love.

 

Lily

[Robin in Tx]

I have enjoyed reading this part of the thread, Kelli. It has helped to remind me that my dd's academic success beyond highschool (or success in anything, for that matter) will be largely determined by whether or not she owns it for herself and is motivated to continue forward. All we can do is lay the best groundwork we can, but they gotta get off their duffs and treat it like the springboard it is (or can be).

 

I chuckled at the comments about not knowing what a professor wants, and the other unexpected hurdles you run into at university. It reminded me of my niece, who was awarded a scholarship to Rice University on math scholarship (no small feat!), but eventually walked away because of this sort of thing. One of the biggest problems she encountered was not being able to understand her profressors. None of them were American. What finally did her in was one of her junior level classes, where the professor kept talking about "PATH-uh-(undiscernible)-rum" and it was almost 1/3 way through the course before she finally figured out he was talking about the pythagoras theorem. She decided she didn't like math enough to spend two more years clearing these sort of hurdles. It wasn't that the math was too hard. So, in a way, this really can be true... overcoming academic challenges aren't always as difficult as overcoming the experience.

 

FWIW, I was one of those who didn't go to college and didn't value education. Until I hit my 30s and couldn't advance at work. So I put myself back to school... on my dime and in my spare time... and I was very successful. Nothing my parents could have done would have made me that tenacious and serious about it when I was 18. I had to arrive to that spot on my own. I intend to preapre dd for college and send her there, but who knows... she might end up like me... and might have to grow up before she'll take it seriously enough to do well. That will be her life if she does, and I imagine she will turn out fine either way :). Your success as a homeschooler is not determined by how well your child does in college afterwards (at least that's what I keep telling myself, while keeping a good college education on the map as our destination the whole time).

 

Thanks again for starting this discussion!

Robin

[Kelli in TN]

.

 

TT is not a favorite with me, neither are a lot of other curriculums. However, I do have two friends whose daughters progressed nicely through TT in high school, and are doing well in the math at our local community college. Now, neither of these girls are going to go on to any math higher than the basic GE requirement.

 

If your kids are not going to be science or engineering majors, TT is fine. No, more than fine. It is clear, thorough, and gets the basics done. What more can you ask for?

 

Now if your kids want to go on to real brain-twisting, higher math, you might want to check out other self-teaching programs like Chalkdust, or even get them a tutor for their 11th and 12th grade.

 

Lots of encouragement and love.

 

Lily

 

Thanks. No brain-twisting math for this one, she wants to be a poli-sci major with minor in history. And then maybe law school. She is only going to want enough math to meet requirements.

[Kelli in TN]

Nothing my parents could have done would have made me that tenacious and serious about it when I was 18. I had to arrive to that spot on my own. I intend to preapre dd for college and send her there, but who knows... she might end up like me... and might have to grow up before she'll take it seriously enough to do well. That will be her life if she does, and I imagine she will turn out fine either way :). Your success as a homeschooler is not determined by how well your child does in college afterwards (at least that's what I keep telling myself, while keeping a good college education on the map as our destination the whole time).

 

Thanks again for starting this discussion!

Robin

 

 

Nodding my head here! My oldest had a LOT of FUN during his short lived college career. But they don't give degrees in fun, do they?

 

Now he is happily married, works full time, is settled and just a good man. He takes online classes through our state system, on his dime and on his time.

 

Sometimes they just have to grow up first, don't they?

[Kelley]

I too believe that one has to look at the individual. (What works in the given situation.) My daughter for example at this point wants to either pursue becoming a dance instructor, sign language interpretor, or cosmetologist. None of these degrees requires advanced math.

 

Therefore I believe that TT has its place. Perhaps not for engineers, but for a "regular" student, it may be just fine.

 

We have tried Singapore and BJU we have succeeded in both programs, but I feel that they are not the perfect fit for my daughter.

 

My youngest son (age 8) on the other hand when he gets up to that level, may be a different story. He picks up math concepts with very little instruction from me, my daughter is a different story.

 

So, I think that one really has to look at the individual needs of their children and try our best to fulfill them. That after all is the beauty of home education.:D

 

By the way, I am fascinated reading everyone's opinions. ;)

 

Kelley

[Kathy in MD]

..... This is not subjective. It is a simple matter of fact as to whether or not a student of TT can do the same kind of problems as a student of Saxon or Singapore. It seems almost certain that they can't. That's it. Maybe I'm wrong -- then prove it with problems. Show me the problems that students can do after TT. Show me something besides the vague assurances of its author or charges of antidiplomacy on my part..

 

This is a great point that we should apply to ALL math programs. But we shouldn't apply it to the artificial world of math problems, but rather to real world problems. Math is not a subject to be checked off in school and then put away for the rest of your life. Math is a real tool that makes many things in life easier.

 

A post on the high school board was about parents complaining that the SAT math portion was not realistic and that students needed to take a special math course to learn how to do SAT math. The general concensus was that the ACT math test was more practical because it was more typical of the math texts. One brave dissentor said that SAT math could be done without special classes if the student understood his math and had plenty of time. What the classes were needed for was to teach the student to look at unusual situations and quickly solve the problems.

 

So I suggest that this is what we strive for -- an understanding of math so that, as an adult, your student can use his math in daily life. That means understanding it so it can be applied to many unusual situations. Now the problem is, how do we check for that? :confused:

 

 

....And as far as what we need in math programs, what is wrong with math ed, at its root, has nothing to do with any of these things. It has nothing to do with pedagogical methods. It has nothing to do with conceptual understandings or any of that. Or even brainedness or some such. The problem is that we continually want to teach material that students aren't really ready for. We want a short cut to advanced material. And we want to do it with everyone, most of whom don't really care -- they don't care and their parents don't really care that much. This problem is as old as dirt. There is no royal road to geometry. If we did this the right way, it would all be about 10 times as hard as it is and most people wouldn't get through one onehundredth of the material they currently do because not everybody needs to do a lot of math. But, everyone should do the math that they do end up doing correctly. But, that's not what we do and that's not what TT does either......

 

I totally agree that we don't make good math students that by forcing higher levels of math at younger and younger ages. Really, do most people need calculus? In high school????? Instead they need a good grounding in basic algebra (and if they learned the Singapore bar system they might not even need that) and geometry basics (calculating area, etc.) for life and proofs for training logical thinking.

 

I have degrees in both architecture and finance. Both degrees required a calculus class, but to design typical low rise buildings, only an understanding of algebra and the structural design manuals were needed. And for finance applications, only knowing how to deal with one or two calculus symbols was needed. The business formulas were already developed. The symbols were easily taught in a few minutes. What my fellow classmates often lacked was understanding and feeling comfortable with basic math and algebra. As a result, my ds won't get calculus in hs. He may still be struggling with algebra I as a senior but he'll understand it, even if it kills me. (I'll have my ds send you invitations to my funeral :D )

[Charon]

That isn't what I was saying. I have no idea how people do in the other programs. You just said you had no proof that people in TT did well and mine did.

 

Christine

 

 

No. I don't think I said that at all. At one point in my post I said that you must provide proof of your program along the lines of specific problems your students can solve if they go through your program. But, I have already fairly adequately investigated that on a number of occasions. Also, my findings are corroborated by others who have used the program before. Selected anecdotes like yours are not evidence. Even the worst public school programs have such an anecdote. It becomes statistically likely with an increasing number of people using the program. And, it's vague. So, you're saying your kid is in the 7th grade, using the 7th grade TT and they made in the 60th percentile on the ACT? On the whole, 60th percentile is not all that great, per se, but for a 7th grader it is pretty awesome, I would think. (What do 7th graders normally make on the ACT?) If your kid was 16 I would say "So what -- that's closer to average than to good." But, since they are 11 or 12, that is a good sign that they are bright. However, it doesn't necessarily indicate much about the program they are in, and even if it did, it is not clear what it would indicate. "That it's good," is almost completely meaningless unelss you are to infer that students out of the program can solve some hard problems covering typical topics.

 

And, especially since it is one outcome selected not at all at random, it really doesn't indicate anything. Given what I do actually know about the programs, it sounds like your kid would have scored even higher had they been in 7th grade Singapore which I believe is NEM 1 but it is probably 6B if you go according to his age. In either case, I am quite confident that the problems of 6B blow the problems of TT7 out of the water in terms of difficulty.

[Charon]

Charon, I'm curious what you are basing your assertions on --- you very well may be correct (I have no horse in this race; we're still in Singapore Elem Math, and I don't yet know what we'll be using for PreAlg, Alg, Geom, Calculus, etc.), but I am wondering what the evidence is. Are there comparisons of how students test after using TT, or VT, or Gelfand, or Program X? I understand that the scope/sequences of these various programs may be different, and that the TT problems (for example) may not seem as hard - but do you know of any direct comparisons, or studies, or hard data that would help those of us who are not yet at the point of choosing middle/high school math? Anything but anecdote?

 

Thanks!

 

 

No looking at the problems is not an anecdote, especially when it is someone like me looking at them. I think the main thing lacking in my own assessments of TT is completeness. I suppose I literally have to buy all of the texts and go through them with a fine toothed comb. If I was actually being paid (enough) to write an evaluation of them, then maybe I would do that. But, then again, you would have to wonder about the motivation of the people that paid me. ;)

 

I am basing what I am saying on specific evidence originally fairly systematically acquired through their website designed by them specifically for people to evaluate their product as well as on specific things that others have said. I am not sure what more (other than more thoroughness) you would want. Statistics are always problematic and generally a little abused by whoever presents them. Although, some basic ones wouldn't be bad here. I think, in the end, though, there really is no substitute for simply directly evaluating the problems students can do.

[Charon]

No looking at the problems is not an anecdote, especially when it is someone like me looking at them. I think the main thing lacking in my own assessments of TT is completeness. I suppose I literally have to buy all of the texts and go through them with a fine toothed comb. If I was actually being paid (enough) to write an evaluation of them, then maybe I would do that. But, then again, you would have to wonder about the motivation of the people that paid me. ;)

 

I am basing what I am saying on specific evidence originally fairly systematically acquired through their website designed by them specifically for people to evaluate their product as well as on specific things that others have said. I am not sure what more (other than more thoroughness) you would want. Statistics are always problematic and generally a little abused by whoever presents them. Although, some basic ones wouldn't be bad here. I think, in the end, though, there really is no substitute for simply directly evaluating the problems students can do.

 

 

Now that I read that, it comes off a little arrogant. I should point out that I have an MS in Math from Ohio State. I actually am somewhat of a "competent professional" in terms of evaluating that kind of mathematical content. The fact is that every program usually has a PhD Mathematician or other credentialed expert endorsing it. That's why you need to just take and make a direct comparison of the problems between programs. Some PhD endorses (indeed helps to write) Saxon. And, the Sabouri brothers have whatever endorsements they have. Now, let's look at the problems specifically.

 

Bottom line: TT's problems are far easier than everyone else's.

[GailV]

Edited to warn future readers: The following link was an April Fool's prank. The link in this message has nothing to do with TT; we were rickrolling Charon in this precise message, not including any messages up until this time. Posts up until this point were written in good faith and made thoughtfully and seriously. If you're here researching TT, the next several messages really have nothing to do with this thread's subject of TT. As a matter of fact, we may have permanently derailed this thread. I have left the link in to satisfy curiosity regarding the comments that followed. I know I tend to be "late to the party" and always end up wondering what all of the fuss was about. In this case, the fuss was about this:

 

Charon, I did manage to find some studies regarding TT that you might be interested in:

[Kelli in TN]

Charon, I did manage to find some studies regarding TT that you might be interested in:

 

Oh man. That totally changes my mind about TT. I have got to find something else for my younger kids to use, I am not willing to go through this doubt and self-loathing again. Thanks for sharing that link.

[Kelli in TN]

clicking the link.

 

I PM'ed you about this study. Check your PM box.

[Colleen in NS]

Charon, I did manage to find some studies regarding TT that you might be interested in:

 

What does this link have to do with TT? All I see is a Youtube of some guy dancing around a microphone.

 

Edit: Oh, maybe that's part of why you are editing. I'll wait. :)

[Kelley]

Study Link....???

 

I guess I didn't get it??

 

I got Rick Rolled???

 

Kelley

[Kelli in TN]

What does this link have to do with TT? All I see is a Youtube of some guy dancing around a microphone.

 

Gail had to go to take a child to piano lessons, but she asked me to share the following message with anyone interested in the findings of this important and timely study......

 

 

 

 

.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

......

 

 

 

 

 

......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

......

 

Happy April Fool's Day.:tongue_smilie:

[Kelli in TN]

Study Link....???

 

I guess I didn't get it??

 

I got Rick Rolled???

 

Kelley

 

Yes you did. As did I. Happy April Fool's Day from Gail!

[Kelley]

Thanks for reminding me that it is April Fool's Day!:lol:

[Colleen in NS]

Gail had to go to take a child to piano lessons, but she asked me to share the following message with anyone interested in the findings of this important and timely study......

 

 

 

 

.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

......

 

 

 

 

 

......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

......

 

Happy April Fool's Day.:tongue_smilie:

 

AAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! ROTFL I think I need to stop reading this thread.......

[Myrtle]

Gail,

 

Charon fell for it! I didn't get a chance to videotape his response, but I couldn't have posted it anyway, it went something like this "(#*$Y(@#$, that's the fourth time you rickrolled me today! LOLOL"

[GothicGyrl]

I am so seriously LMAO Here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BWHAHAHAHAHA I love it...

 

I love what youtube did to viewers.. everyone got Rickrolled.. and if someone is giving you neg. rep for that.. well I can't repeat what I'd say to them, but it is very similar to Charon's response!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Good show!!

[Charon]

I am so seriously LMAO Here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BWHAHAHAHAHA I love it...

 

I love what youtube did to viewers.. everyone got Rickrolled.. and if someone is giving you neg. rep for that.. well I can't repeat what I'd say to them, but it is very similar to Charon's response!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Good show!!

 

nt = no text

[Laura in VA]

Charon, I did manage to find some studies regarding TT that you might be interested in:

 

when it came out. :blushing:

And, to make matters worse I just watched the entire video and sang along. :D

[GailV]

Thanks, Kelli, for covering for me. I had a panic when I read her first message after mine, and thought she was mad at me. That's where that "edited" message came from. I was thinking others would possibly be mad at linking to that INCREDIBLY LOUD video -- sheesh, everyone in the house jumped the 1st time I clicked on it, I could picture young children starting to scream, mothers upset that I linked it, me ending up banned from the website for ANNOYING LINKS that really weren't my fault (Myrtle made me do it).

 

But mostly I was really looking forward to seeing the video of Charon, darn it all.

[mom2abcd]

Edited to warn future readers: This was an April Fool's prank. The link has nothing to do with TT; we were rickrolling Charon. So, if you're here researching TT, the next several messages really have nothing to do with this thread's subject of TT. As a matter of fact, we may have permanently derailed this thread.

 

Charon, I did manage to find some studies regarding TT that you might be interested in:

 

OK... our computer sound card isn't working and maybe I have the wrong link.

 

Are you saying all the antagonistic-towards-TT posts Charon made were posted as an April Fool's Joke? I think this whole thread needs to be pulled. This could be very damaging to the TT authors.

 

Until kids who've used TT for some time are tested with the ACT/SAT, we won't know if it "works" or not. We've had this whole argument about MUS not being rigourous enough. Yet some who've used it for years score very high when tested. Programs don't have to be head-bangingly rigourous and tedious to "work."

 

I imagine people can cut down most any math program if they have a mind to. Tomorrow (when it's not April Fool's Day) I'll ask about Math Relief. LOL

[GailV]

I updated my edit to clarify that everything up to the point of the link I posted was written in good faith by people seriously discussing and considering pros and cons of TT. I hope that helps, and apologize for any confusion.

 

I'm okay editing out everything I wrote from that point on if asked by the Powers That Be. I'm not sure if Powers That Be can pull part of a thread (where it slid into an April Fool's prank). I do think the posts up until that point were interesting, and it would be a shame to lose the first few pages of this discussion.

[Myrtle]

OK... our computer sound card isn't working and maybe I have the wrong link.

 

Are you saying all the antagonistic-towards-TT posts Charon made were posted as an April Fool's Joke? I think this whole thread needs to be pulled. This could be very damaging to the TT authors.

 

Until kids who've used TT for some time are tested with the ACT/SAT, we won't know if it "works" or not. We've had this whole argument about MUS not being rigourous enough. Yet some who've used it for years score very high when tested. Programs don't have to be head-bangingly rigourous and tedious to "work."

 

I imagine people can cut down most any math program if they have a mind to. Tomorrow (when it's not April Fool's Day) I'll ask about Math Relief. LOL

 

No. The TT discussion is serious. (do a search on this topic on these boards to see that these kinds of discussions go back for several years) The Rickrolling is comic relief.

[at the beach]

I have TT 7 and my dd 11 is using it this year. We also add in Singapore CWP, which we love. TT placement tests are much easier than what is in the actual text. I purchased TT for my daughter because she found it so appealing. She had problems in the fractions area and we supplemented with Life of Fred fractions. Will I continue with TT after discussions here and looking into it further? Well, I'm not sure. I am finding that we really love the time we spend with Singapore and want to devote more time to it.

 

On another note, I also noticed that the price of Math 7 has dropped by $20. I contacted the company and asked why they lowered their price and asked if they would refund me the difference. They said no refund and offered no explanation other than their prices are subject to change at any time. I have to admit, I felt a little miffed--perhaps wrongly so.

 

Anita

[MommyInTraining]

I don't know if this is going to work or not, but what I am doing with my 11th grader is combining TT with Aleks.

 

I am keeping my fingers crossed that it works out okay in the end.

 

Ask me again in about 3 years whether or not it worked out, okay?

 

 

 

Kelli, it has only been about 2 years, but, has it been working?

 

I was doing some research on TT, and came across this thread ;)

[mamato4girls]

Thanks for posting this, we have used TT for 2 years, and I am really on the fence with it for next year.

[Kari C in SC]

We, too, are very satisfied TT users. For the first time, my dd gets it. She doesn't dread math, she actually likes doing it. It's good to see the author's point of view.

 

:iagree: I have struggled with my dd for years over math. This year she did it every day with a good attitude. And... it grades itself! That alone is worth a bazillion dollars for this mom that sometime slacks on the whole grading thing.

[ilovemy4kids]

Kelli,

I'm curious too, what do you think now that you've used it for awhile. I posted a poll where I am considering this.

Sandra

[coffeefreak]

You should probably PM her. I unsubscribe threads after they've been dormant about 6 months. She might not realize you're posting on it.

 

 

HTH!

Dorinda

[Lovedtodeath]

You all may be interested in this: Waiting on recommending Teaching Textbooks...

[siloam]

You are confusing the sensitivity of a lot of the people that use the program with actual harshness of the comments made about it. This is not subjective. It is a simple matter of fact as to whether or not a student of TT can do the same kind of problems as a student of Saxon or Singapore. It seems almost certain that they can't. That's it. Maybe I'm wrong -- then prove it with problems. Show me the problems that students can do after TT. Show me something besides the vague assurances of its author or charges of antidiplomacy on my part.

 

And as far as what we need in math programs, what is wrong with math ed, at its root, has nothing to do with any of these things. It has nothing to do with pedagogical methods. It has nothing to do with conceptual understandings or any of that. Or even brainedness or some such. The problem is that we continually want to teach material that students aren't really ready for. We want a short cut to advanced material. And we want to do it with everyone, most of whom don't really care -- they don't care and their parents don't really care that much. This problem is as old as dirt. There is no royal road to geometry. If we did this the right way, it would all be about 10 times as hard as it is and most people wouldn't get through one onehundredth of the material they currently do because not everybody needs to do a lot of math. But, everyone should do the math that they do end up doing correctly. But, that's not what we do and that's not what TT does either.

 

So, fine. Just box check it and be done with it. TT is great for that. Don't come up with an infomertial email from the publisher and act like TT is a super good program. Not every program is "the best". On an ancient Simpsons episode where Homer and Barney undergo a grueling competition to see which one NASA will select as the token blue-collar slob on its next manned mission to space, a NASA official tells them "Gentlemen, you've both worked very hard and in a way, you're both winners. But in another more accurate way, Barney's the winner."

 

I know people say it a lot -- "Everybody's a winner". But, I am afraid it just isn't true. In most of the important ways but one, TT loses to its competition. It does seem to provide the most eshaustive and thorough video explanations of any program and it is the easiest and so most doable. But, it seems a near certainty that it just doesn't have as good of problems and the students coming out of it are less equipped to work hard problems than they are coming out of most of the other programs. That is not a matter of opinion nor is it a matter of student or parental preference. It is a simple matter of fact. It is much better to know this and accept it and plan around it than to talk yourself into thinking that TT is going to produce students that can really solve problems the way programs like Singapore or supplements like Gelfand do.

 

I would agree with both you and with Mr. Sabouri. You are right that TT isn't going to graduate a student at the same level as Singapore, no argument there.

 

BUT I do think there is a place for math for non-mathy kids. Just like in college we have Biology for non-Science majors and Biology for science majors.

 

My oldest can do algebra right now, no problem, but you stick her in front of a Singapore level 5 IP or word problems and she short circuits. She doesn't want to be pushed to think hard, she doesn't enjoy it. The problem I have been facing lately is she feels she is bad at math because of the Singpaore IP and Word problems, but the truth is she is actually very good at basic math. She grasps concepts very quickly when they are demonstrated to her (key point here) and can then take them and apply them easily to similar situations.

 

She is excited to learn algebra, to move on from basic math, but there is no way she can do Singapore. What do I do for that sort of child? TT is a good solution in these cases.

 

In my case I actually decided to use another program, but TT would have also filled the need. I am not giving up on Singapore by any means, but she really does hate it. I have days when I wonder if it wouldn't be better for her long term if she were to drop the critical thinking work in Singapore and work on develop a love of math. Might that not serve her better? For myself I loved numbers, so I just memorized the formulas and plugged in the numbers. I got straight A's even in college Calculus, but like my dd I had no desire to really think through difficult problems. Lucky for me that wasn't required in my classes (non-math major). It wasn't till my 30's that I started to care about the why and have the moxie to push through a tough problems.

 

TT isn't a program for everyone, and totally agree that it doesn't have the rigor of other programs. Still I think it meets a need. I am also not convinced that kids graduating from TT can't move into College level math, even if they aren't at the same level that Singapore students are. For Singapore students college level math is going to be easy, peasy. TT students are just going to have to work for it. Assuming they are not math majors.

 

Heather

 

[8filltheheart]

I would agree with both you and with Mr. Sabouri. You are right that TT isn't going to graduate a student at the same level as Singapore, no argument there.

 

BUT I do think there is a place for math for non-mathy kids. Just like in college we have Biology for non-Science majors and Biology for science majors.

 

My oldest can do algebra right now, no problem, but you stick her in front of a Singapore level 5 IP or word problems and she short circuits. She doesn't want to be pushed to think hard, she doesn't enjoy it. The problem I have been facing lately is she feels she is bad at math because of the Singpaore IP and Word problems, but the truth is she is actually very good at basic math. She grasps concepts very quickly when they are demonstrated to her (key point here) and can then take them and apply them easily to similar situations.

 

She is excited to learn algebra, to move on from basic math, but there is no way she can do Singapore. What do I do for that sort of child? TT is a good solution in these cases.

 

In my case I actually decided to use another program, but TT would have also filled the need. I am not giving up on Singapore by any means, but she really does hate it. I have days when I wonder if it wouldn't be better for her long term if she were to drop the critical thinking work in Singapore and work on develop a love of math. Might that not serve her better? For myself I loved numbers, so I just memorized the formulas and plugged in the numbers. I got straight A's even in college Calculus, but like my dd I had no desire to really think through difficult problems. Lucky for me that wasn't required in my classes (non-math major). It wasn't till my 30's that I started to care about the why and have the moxie to push through a tough problems.

 

TT isn't a program for everyone, and totally agree that it doesn't have the rigor of other programs. Still I think it meets a need. I am also not convinced that kids graduating from TT can't move into College level math, even if they aren't at the same level that Singapore students are. For Singapore students college level math is going to be easy, peasy. TT students are just going to have to work for it. Assuming they are not math majors.

 

Heather

 

 

Heather,

 

This thread is over 2 yrs old. i don't think Charon or Myrtle have been on these forums for well over a yr, if not closer to 2.

[siloam]

Heather,

 

This thread is over 2 yrs old. i don't think Charon or Myrtle have been on these forums for well over a yr, if not closer to 2.

 

LOL!! Who has been kicking up all these old threads? I always forget to check the date.

 

I do really wonder some days if it would be better to just let go and say she isn't a math kid, or should I continue to lead her by the hand through Singapore in hopes she will rise to the occasion with help? If she has help will she really own it?

 

Not questions that will be answered anytime soon. Off to ponder some more...

 

Heather

[Lovedtodeath]

 

LOL!! Who has been kicking up all these old threads? I always forget to check the date.

I still think you made a good point, and I stand by my advice to the mom choosing a Sonlight level over a year ago too.:tongue_smilie:

[coffeefreak]

You all may be interested in this: Waiting on recommending Teaching Textbooks...

 

Carmen,

This is an AWSOME thread! Thanks for posting it. I really respect Carrie's opinions. Even though we decided to use Saxon, I was still considering it for later on.

 

Blessings!

 

Dorinda

[MerryAtHope]

LOL!! Who has been kicking up all these old threads? I always forget to check the date.

 

I do really wonder some days if it would be better to just let go and say she isn't a math kid, or should I continue to lead her by the hand through Singapore in hopes she will rise to the occasion with help? If she has help will she really own it?

 

Not questions that will be answered anytime soon. Off to ponder some more...

 

Heather

 

I'd take a break from Singapore. You don't have to say "never again," but if she hates it, I'm not sure it's the best learning environment. My son was much younger when we switched from Singapore (to Horizons, but back a level), but it totally turned his attitude about math around for a few years (totally restored his confidence, and for a time he actually listed math as his favorite subject. Then he hated it again for a time, though only in certain sections, but recently has decided he no longer hates it, LOL!).

 

Singapore 5 has stymied even mathy people at times. Maybe, like you, your daughter won't be ready for even having the desire to learn numbers like that until she's older. In our case, I decided that there were too many things that required my time and attention to continue with a program my child hated--that just made for more conflict, frustration, time spent...I don't know, I just didn't think it was the most productive use of my time or of my child's time. I love math too, and it's a love my dd shares but my son doesn't. Not for lack of my trying, LOL! Though he's better at it than he thinks he is.

 

Well, just food for thought! Merry :-)