I tried WWE again this week...Sigh

[TKDmom]

When I first started hs'ing DD a year ago, I started on WWE2 using the workbook. We spent 4 months getting through 10 weeks and I gave up. She hated it. She hated narration. She hated answering in complete sentences, when I could understand her perfectly well without the complete sentence. She hated the copywork (too babyish). I was pregnant and nauseated and tired and grumpy. So we dropped it. I switched to SL LA because it was easy, but I've been underwhelmed by the amount of actual instruction in that program.

 

Over Christmas, I listened to a presentation by SWB and she spent a few minutes talking about teaching children to write (the method in WWE). I thought, "That makes so much sense! I'm going to try it again." I thought that maybe the problem was trying to follow a script and starting out below her level. She is very bright and gets mad if you insult her intelligence.

 

Soo, this week I did some assignments using the ideas from WWE3. I made up my own plans from the book that she was reading independently for LA. I figured that if I could avoid following a script, there would be less tension between us, since I wouldn't fall into the trap of pushing for the "right" answer.

 

Day 1--Narration: I made up some comprehension questions, which she answered with a pleasant attitude. I asked for a 2 or 3 sentence summary. She thought for a minute and managed to compact her summary into one sentance with a triumphant grin.

 

Day 2--Dictation: She rolled her eyes and sighed. She started to get frustrated with having to leave spaces between her words, but it got done.

 

Day 3--Narration and dictation: We wrangled over answering in complete sentences. We fussed at the 4 y.o. trying to do karate moves on us. We wrangled over not capitalizing every single word. Finally, DD shouted, "I HATE DICTATION! I'M NEVER DOING DICTATION EVER AGAIN!!!!"

 

Oh well. I tried (sort of ;)). I'm getting some MCT books in the mail tomorrow...

[Amber in AUS]

Don't chuck the baby out with the bathwater. I sounds like she did well with the narration so work on that for now :)

[lulubelle]

That is tough! I don't have much to say. Good luck with MCT!

[swainsonshawk]

Some kids aren't ready for dictation. There are a lot of steps involved: Listening to mom, remembering the words, thinking about how to spell, thinking about how to write it, all those rules, etc. etc.

 

If she is struggling with spacing words on a line and capitals/lower case, mabye try the dictation as copywork for a while to work on those things?

 

Also, I might suggest that you pick just ONE thing to "work on" in her copywork, if you do it. That way she doesn't feel like she's always wrong.

[PeterPan]

Were you asking for help or streaming your thoughts? :)

 

When my baby was the age yours is now, we weren't exactly having great school days either, lol. No kung fu, unless you count my own loss of mind and flailing motions, lol. But truthfully, you still have to deal with the discipline problems, even if you change curricula. You still have to get your kid to follow the standards of proper writing. They still need to answer in complete sentences, unless you want them to grow up grunting. So if MCT helps you make that happen, cool. It might be a little challenging right now, considering it's all parent-driven. In your shoes I'd probably go back to the very beginning of WWE, the level *1* assignments, and start from there. They'll be easy, not take long, and be something you can actually get done in between karate chops and baby slops. I'd pick a small amount, just doing 1 little lesson a day from the level 1 in the main WWE book, and do it. A little bit done faithfully every day will get you somewhere in the end.

 

It may be that the reason she was so frustrated is because she doesn't have the skills. You can't jump the steps in the process, no matter how bright or old she is. Go back to the beginning and build a proper foundation.

[Pata]

:iagree: with OhElizabeth, but I also wanted to offer some possible help with the dictation. My dd hated dictation and at about week 16 of WWE she refused to do dictation ever again. So we switched things up a bit. I let dd look at the selection first, to give her a chance to pick out the words she doesn't know how to spell, then we write those on a piece of paper. Once she's sure she know where the capitals and punctuation are she hands it back to me and I dictate it to her. This has worked wonders for us, no more eye rolling or whining and now dictation actually gets done in 5 minutes instead of 30 :).

[nandmsmom]

I started DS in WWE 1 in the second grade. We went through it pretty fast, but he needed the basics first. He doesn't love it, but he needs it and we're workinng through it. He's now 3rd grade and we just started on WWE 3. The improvement in his writing is amazing. Its a process, one day should not make or break a program.

[Heather in WI]

you still have to deal with the discipline problems, even if you change curricula. You still have to get your kid to follow the standards of proper writing. They still need to answer in complete sentences, unless you want them to grow up grunting.

{snip} You can't jump the steps in the process, no matter how bright or old she is. Go back to the beginning and build a proper foundation.

 

:iagree:

[TKDmom]

Thanks everyone. I'm feeling better about things after a night's rest. I was just whining. I want WWE to work. I don't think it's "fun", but the skills are essential. I always did well on my writing assignments, but it was like pulling teeth. I don't want her to feel the same as I do about writing.

 

I probably do need to go back to the beginning. Without letting her know what I'm doing. ;) Like I said, she is does not take kindly to feeling like I'm insulting her intelligence.

 

We have been doing copywork throughout the year. She has never liked it. But I have been getting fewer complaints about it lately. It got better when I started using StartWrite and used an appropriate font size, rather than the ridiculously large lined paper that comes in the workbooks.

 

If you moved quickly through WWE1, how did you do it? Did you do multiple assignments in one day, or did you skip weeks, or something else?

 

Would it be LA overkill to combine WWE with MCT and SL readers? The readers are more fun than work for DD. It seems like WWE should only take about 10 minutes a day. I don't have any idea how MCT will work, but I get the feeling that you can work through it at your own pace. I thought I saw some posts where someone mentioned combining WWE with MCT.

[kalanamak]

:iagree: with OhElizabeth, but I also wanted to offer some possible help with the dictation. My dd hated dictation and at about week 16 of WWE she refused to do dictation ever again. So we switched things up a bit. I let dd look at the selection first, to give her a chance to pick out the words she doesn't know how to spell, then we write those on a piece of paper. Once she's sure she know where the capitals and punctuation are she hands it back to me and I dictate it to her. This has worked wonders for us, no more eye rolling or whining and now dictation actually gets done in 5 minutes instead of 30 :).

 

Sounds good. Now that we have reached the point where he has to come up with a sentence by himself, I had put our usual spelling lessons on hold to drill some small but non-CVC words that he's likely to use. This means he can concentrate on his sentence, not the spelling of "pull".

 

As for dictation, SWR has been a great entry for that. I break out the finger-hints if he has erased more than twice in a sentence, and while he mutters about this being babyish, he sneaks looks and does better.:)

 

Perhaps I'm draconian, but for us *I* decide if/when to drop something. I might, after a lesson, never pick something up again, but NOT after fussing and refusing on the part of the child. I calmly inform that we are going to work on this until his attitude is better (which is a magic fix...he knows I'll ride that pony until it stops bucking), and then I might never pick the book up again, but I do not put something aside because the child has pitched a fit. (Adjust, yes.)

 

I have found my kiddo, at least, is a give 'em and inch and he takes a mile when it comes to getting out of school. And once he "puts on his happy face", the lesson is almost always genuinely nice. "Look, a compound word", he says, not 20 seconds after a firm reminder from me that he stuffy nose was last week, and we were not taking yet another break for tissues until this task was done.

[rafiki]

.

[TKDmom]

I would absolutely work on your dd's attitude, that simply wouldn't be accepted here period.

 

Yeah, we're getting there. This is one reason we started hsing. I didn't expect to have a teenager for a few more years... Really, she is a sweet girl. Just a little bit too much like her mother.:rolleyes:

[abbeyej]

Would it be LA overkill to combine WWE with MCT and SL readers? The readers are more fun than work for DD. It seems like WWE should only take about 10 minutes a day. I don't have any idea how MCT will work, but I get the feeling that you can work through it at your own pace. I thought I saw some posts where someone mentioned combining WWE with MCT.

 

That's a tough one. It wouldn't be for my dd. (And I don't think it would have been for ds at that age, though we were using other programs.) But she doesn't fight me on writing either. I'm not sure I would layer in multiple programs for a child who was 1) struggling with basics, and 2) dealing with a bad attitude towards work and mom. I would rather address those two issues firmly, but in short, consistent daily lessons rather than just adding in *more* work.

 

I like what OhE had to say about going backwards and working on the very basics, since that seems to be where your dd is struggling. I also agree with Kalanamak saying that *Mom* decides when it's time to change resources and it's never solely because of a tantrum on the child's part. (I'm absolutely willing to change a material that's not working, but just like my children don't get something they want by throwing a fit in other aspects of their lives, that's not going to fly at school time either. A calm discussion about what is frustrating or why they'd prefer another approach will certainly be taken seriously, however.)

 

(As to font size, we just use normal wide-rule paper for all of our WWE work. I think many kids find it tiring to use giant lines much past the initial learning-to-form-letters stage...)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I use a composition notebook in the appropriate sized lines for my ds instead of the pages provided in the workbook. I have my son do the copy work in cursive which is something you may want to consider since it is "big" girl work. If she has not done cursive yet, you could have her trace traditional cursive letters everyday and trace the copy work and then write it out:)

 

Also, if she is frustrated with dictation, then try copy work for a while. My 8 year old son is an advanced learner and we are doing WWE 2 as well. You could also explain the purpose of answering in complete sentences, of narration, and dictation as well. I tell my son that these exercises assist with writing, grammar, spelling, etc;) I also do 2 lessons in a day since he writes easily. So we do a week in 2 days:)

 

I am sorry if I am the master of the obvious. Last year I thought that narration, copy work, and dictation were silly. I have now come to the conclusion that they are actually really powerful methods to help give the fundamentals of writing to children:)

 

Ambleside Online has a copy work yahoo group with free copywork. We are using the the first level which starts with copy work from Aesop's Fables and then we review the fables themselves.

Edited January 8, 2010 by priscilla

[PeterPan]

I always did well on my writing assignments, but it was like pulling teeth. I don't want her to feel the same as I do about writing...she is does not take kindly to feeling like I'm insulting her intelligence.

 

Why do you give a rip what she thinks about her intelligence?? Maybe she needs a reality check. maybe she needs to KNOW she's not writing dictation even to 1st grade standards, and then she won't feel so free to complain and tell you she's bored. Self esteem should be based in reality, not imagination.

 

I'd tell her the truth. Tell her she clearly is struggling and needs to go back a step. When she can do those steps easily, WITHOUT COMPLAINING, then she moves forward. Why would you put her into a LA program for gifted/advanced 3rd graders if she's performing in writing like a 1st grader?? (whether by will or inability) When she choses to function like a 3rd grader, when she does the work of a 3rd grader, then she gets the privilege. It's both a discipline problem and a content problem. MCT is the reward, not the solution. I wouldn't move her into it till she completes through WWE2 and is into WWE3. That way you know she has the foundation. If it's a skill issue, then you've rebuilt her foundation. If it's a will issue, then you've reformed her will. Either way, I would want both in line to move forward.

 

Why were you making a bright, bored 8 yo do copywork? That was your bad. You could have changed that to dictation ages ago. Admit that to her and tell her things are going to change. But don't take on unrealistic loads with this. WWE, just doing it, as written, from the book, would be SO easy for you. And I don't get why you're asking for acceleration schedules for it. That will happen naturally as you get into it, if she needs it. I wouldn't TRY for that though. Why guilt-trip yourself? You've got a baby and other kids. Just do something every day. Do some WWE for 10-15 minutes a day, and however much you get done is what you get done. Have her write something every day. It could be a book narration one day, narrations on your history two days a week, science narration one day a week, and a free write or creative work that last day. Don't make this complicated. She needs those short, daily assignments to build her skills.

 

The reason you had trouble writing as a kid was because there was a hole in your understanding: the skill of going from thought to word then word to paper. Dictation, narration, these exercises BUILD that skill. So it's going to fix what you're afraid of from your own background, and you don't even realize it!

Edited January 8, 2010 by OhElizabeth

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I see copy work as a valuable tool even for those who do dictation well:) I have my son do both;)

[Whereneverever]

Why do you give a rip what she thinks about her intelligence?? Maybe she needs a reality check. maybe she needs to KNOW she's not writing dictation even to 1st grade standards, and then she won't feel so free to complain and tell you she's bored. Self esteem should be based in reality, not imagination.

 

I'd tell her the truth. Tell her she clearly is struggling and needs to go back a step. When she can do those steps easily, WITHOUT COMPLAINING, then she moves forward. Why would you put her into a LA program for gifted/advanced 3rd graders if she's performing in writing like a 1st grader?? (whether by will or inability) When she choses to function like a 3rd grader, when she does the work of a 3rd grader, then she gets the privilege. It's both a discipline problem and a content problem. MCT is the reward, not the solution. I wouldn't move her into it till she completes through WWE2 and is into WWE3. That way you know she has the foundation. If it's a skill issue, then you've rebuilt her foundation. If it's a will issue, then you've reformed her will. Either way, I would want both in line to move forward.

 

Why were you making a bright, bored 8 yo do copywork? That was your bad. You could have changed that to dictation ages ago. Admit that to her and tell her things are going to change. But don't take on unrealistic loads with this. WWE, just doing it, as written, from the book, would be SO easy for you. And I don't get why you're asking for acceleration schedules for it. That will happen naturally as you get into it, if she needs it. I wouldn't TRY for that though. Why guilt-trip yourself? You've got a baby and other kids. Just do something every day. Do some WWE for 10-15 minutes a day, and however much you get done is what you get done. Have her write something every day. It could be a book narration one day, narrations on your history two days a week, science narration one day a week, and a free write or creative work that last day. Don't make this complicated. She needs those short, daily assignments to build her skills.

 

The reason you had trouble writing as a kid was because there was a hole in your understanding: the skill of going from thought to word then word to paper. Dictation, narration, these exercises BUILD that skill. So it's going to fix what you're afraid of from your own background, and you don't even realize it!

 

I think you've spoken some very wise words here.

I wouldn't consider a child still figuring out capitalization and spacing to be advanced in writing.

[abbeyej]

Really, she is a sweet girl.

 

I don't think any of us where questioning that. ;) I know I have two very sweet kids :) -- but sometimes we need to have a "Whoa there, Nelly!" moment! They're just kids, and sometimes they need redirection. And those moments often come when we moms have been worn out and stressed out and overwhelmed. Like... I dunno... Maybe when there's a new baby around (no matter how adorable!) and two other kids to parent and teach as well and... ;)

 

So us saying, "That wouldn't fly in my house" is often us saying, "Okay, I've seen that tried, and I know what would happen / has happened if I let that go for even a little while"...

 

And maybe it's time to say, "Okay, Sweet Pea, we've both got to make some changes... I'm going to look at our approach, and what I'm asking you to do, and your attitude is going to do a 180. I'm going to make sure you have the basics you need, and if you show me you've got them, we can just *fly* to some more entertaining material, and you're going to work on doing your work without being rude to Mommy and throwing a fit or [insert appropriate loss of privileges reserved for mature, responsible children]..."

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

One last thought... If she really finds dictation and writing difficult, you may want to consider doing WWE 1 first.

[PeterPan]

I see copy work as a valuable tool even for those who do dictation well:) I have my son do both;)

 

I was merely allowing that some kids outgrow copywork earlier and want to move on to dictation. My dd around 1st, 2nd grade, I forget. They just become extremely resist and enjoy the change.

[PeterPan]

I don't think any of us where questioning that. ;) I know I have two very sweet kids :) -- but sometimes we need to have a "Whoa there, Nelly!" moment! They're just kids, and sometimes they need redirection. And those moments often come when we moms have been worn out and stressed out and overwhelmed. Like... I dunno... Maybe when there's a new baby around (no matter how adorable!) and two other kids to parent and teach as well and... ;)

 

So us saying, "That wouldn't fly in my house" is often us saying, "Okay, I've seen that tried, and I know what would happen / has happened if I let that go for even a little while"...

 

And maybe it's time to say, "Okay, Sweet Pea, we've both got to make some changes... I'm going to look at our approach, and what I'm asking you to do, and your attitude is going to do a 180. I'm going to make sure you have the basics you need, and if you show me you've got them, we can just *fly* to some more entertaining material, and you're going to work on doing your work without being rude to Mommy and throwing a fit or [insert appropriate loss of privileges reserved for mature, responsible children]..."

 

Bingo.

[TKDmom]

Why were you making a bright, bored 8 yo do copywork?!

 

 

I know that were several questions in your post. But as far as this one goes, we had switched to SL LA. It has you do a few sentences of copywork every week. I am leaving it now, because I have realized that there is very little explicit teaching going on in SL LA. There seemed to be a lot of, "write something using expressive words." And I kept wondering when the teaching was going to happen. I pulled her out of ps because I felt like there was a lot of test prep, rather than actual learning, going on there, too.

 

We're only a year into this homeschooling thing. And I feel like I'm just now getting my bearings on what I need to be doing. It didn't help that I was pregnant and too tired to think for most of last year.

 

I think everyone is right that we need to step back to WWE 1. The problems that I listed in my op were not really typical for her writing. I have no idea why we she was capitalizing every word in her sentence. I'd never seen her do that before. It was probably an attitude thing. Her issue with spacing--that's attitude, too. When she's doing copywork, she feels this compulsion to fit her words on the page, exactly as the model has it, even though her writing is not exactly the same as the model and she has to smash her letters together to do it. I've seen her try to line up words in her handwriting book so that they start in exactly the same place as the model. When she does any writing in her notebook (which is wide-ruled paper) I have struggled to make her understand that the margins are there for a reason. She wants to squish in as many words as possible before she goes to the next line. She really doesn't believe me, though. I think the greatest challenge to working with this girl is getting her to understand that, although I am her mother, I'm still right, and she needs to listen to me. I imagine that the only way to get it through to her is to sit with her for each assignment and calmly remind her of what she needs to do. The trick is staying calm when she sets her jaw and refuses to listen.

 

I want to start using MCT for the grammar aspect. We have not been doing grammar with SL this year. And I want a program that does not consist of mind-numbing repetition. You could make the argument that I should just do the mind-numbing repetition, anyway. But I really don't think that's the best way to learn. If it's completely unpleasant, I'm more likely to just go through the motions. But if it's interesting, I'll learn and retain more. I suspect that DD is the same in this regard.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. And for letting me ramble. It's helping me to clarify my thoughts on what we need to be doing and why.

[TKDmom]

I am sorry if I am the master of the obvious. Last year I thought that narration, copy work, and dictation were silly. I have now come to the conclusion that they are actually really powerful methods to help give the fundamentals of writing to children:)

 

 

Yeah, I'm getting to that point, too. :001_smile:

[TKDmom]

And maybe it's time to say, "Okay, Sweet Pea, we've both got to make some changes... I'm going to look at our approach, and what I'm asking you to do, and your attitude is going to do a 180. I'm going to make sure you have the basics you need, and if you show me you've got them, we can just *fly* to some more entertaining material, and you're going to work on doing your work without being rude to Mommy and throwing a fit or [insert appropriate loss of privileges reserved for mature, responsible children]..."

 

She so needs this. Thanks.

 

I forget with smart little children that they do need to know the why. She always has a better attitude if I explain why she is doing something that she thinks is unpleasant. Last year, I really didn't get WWE. Now, I'm seeing the point of it, and maybe I'll be able to explain my reasons for it. And even if she doesn't like my reasons, I can understand why I'm doing it and stand firm in spite her objections.

[Renee in NC]

Sounds good. Now that we have reached the point where he has to come up with a sentence by himself, I had put our usual spelling lessons on hold to drill some small but non-CVC words that he's likely to use. This means he can concentrate on his sentence, not the spelling of "pull".

 

As for dictation, SWR has been a great entry for that. I break out the finger-hints if he has erased more than twice in a sentence, and while he mutters about this being babyish, he sneaks looks and does better.:)

 

Perhaps I'm draconian, but for us *I* decide if/when to drop something. I might, after a lesson, never pick something up again, but NOT after fussing and refusing on the part of the child. I calmly inform that we are going to work on this until his attitude is better (which is a magic fix...he knows I'll ride that pony until it stops bucking), and then I might never pick the book up again, but I do not put something aside because the child has pitched a fit. (Adjust, yes.)

 

I have found my kiddo, at least, is a give 'em and inch and he takes a mile when it comes to getting out of school. And once he "puts on his happy face", the lesson is almost always genuinely nice. "Look, a compound word", he says, not 20 seconds after a firm reminder from me that he stuffy nose was last week, and we were not taking yet another break for tissues until this task was done.

 

I agree with this. I let my now 11yo get out of way too much by stopping things he hates. Tough. Life is hard and sometimes you just have to do things that are not fun and you don't want to do.

[Heather in VA]

 

Perhaps I'm draconian, but for us *I* decide if/when to drop something. I might, after a lesson, never pick something up again, but NOT after fussing and refusing on the part of the child. I calmly inform that we are going to work on this until his attitude is better (which is a magic fix...he knows I'll ride that pony until it stops bucking), and then I might never pick the book up again, but I do not put something aside because the child has pitched a fit. (Adjust, yes.)

 

I have found my kiddo, at least, is a give 'em and inch and he takes a mile when it comes to getting out of school. And once he "puts on his happy face", the lesson is almost always genuinely nice. "Look, a compound word", he says, not 20 seconds after a firm reminder from me that he stuffy nose was last week, and we were not taking yet another break for tissues until this task was done.

 

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes!!! And if you are draconian then so am I - and proud of it LOL. I went through days of 'gee this isn't working because they are grumpy etc and I finally wised up. Now it doesn't matter if I completely agree with them that something we are doing is stupid and lame, I never change when they are whining. If they say they don't like something I literally tell them 'I don't care'. Funny thing happened when I got like that. They don't whine anymore. They do their work diligently and they are enjoying it more. When they realized I had cut off any hope of their whining themselves into less work, they just starting doing it.

 

Heather

[Faithr]

I haven't read any of the other posts. I just wanted to pipe in that my kids really struggle with dictation. I think doing dictation the way the book proposes makes it very hard. I dictate in little chunks reviewing spelling rules as we go along and then I have them copy it over to reinforce it (break into down into short lesson and go at the child's pace). Makes for no tears and little frustration. I think if it is that frustrating to your dd you should make it easier until she gets more confident. But I wouldn't give up on it because you want her to understand you believe she can get good at this. And I wouldn't make it a power struggle/disobedience issue either. Just keep chugging along as gently as you can. When it does finally become easier she will be so incredibly proud of herself. And you will too! I tell my kids when you can do this you will be truly literate!!!!!

 

Btw all my kids have LDs in reading and writing and learning dictation really, really helped them in a profound way.

[TKDmom]

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes!!! And if you are draconian then so am I - and proud of it LOL. I went through days of 'gee this isn't working because they are grumpy etc and I finally wised up. Now it doesn't matter if I completely agree with them that something we are doing is stupid and lame, I never change when they are whining. If they say they don't like something I literally tell them 'I don't care'. Funny thing happened when I got like that. They don't whine anymore. They do their work diligently and they are enjoying it more. When they realized I had cut off any hope of their whining themselves into less work, they just starting doing it.

 

Heather

 

That made me smile. It's funny b/c I do this in other areas of life, but it hasn't transferred over into school too much yet. Like at church, a lot of our friends bring snacks and quiet toys to keep their children quiet. We realized at some point that that just led to lots of demands for more snacks and toys, so we don't allow anything except maybe some crayons and paper. A few weeks ago we went to a friend's choral concert at another church. An older lady in the row behind us must have been horrified to see 4 young children walk in--she made sure we knew exactly where the cry room was. Well the baby fell asleep on DH's shoulder and the others sat quietly for the whole hour. As we were leaving, the lady gushed over how well behaved dc were. I didn't tell her it's b/c they're trained to sit for an hour and a half every week.

 

Now, I just need to implement that philosophy in school...

[nandmsmom]

When we went through things quickly, I combined days. In WWE1, we did days 1 and 2 together and days 3 and 4 together. In WWE2, we did days 1 and 2 together and 3 and 4 on separate days. In WWE3 we're going at a more normal pace, although we're doing it for 5 day weeks instead of 4. We got through 1 and 2 in just over a year on this schedule.

[PeterPan]

Had to chuckle over that mind-numbing grammar, hehe... No endorsement of that around here! :) Some people are doing grammar that way to get the writing practice (copying sentences), not just for the grammar, just so you know. We did SL LA for a while, so I know what you mean. I didn't realize you had started so recently AND had been pregnant that first year. That's a rough start! Well just chalk it up. We all learn things and move forward. You've survived the first year, and it will get better. Try some things, flop at some things. It takes a few years to find your groove honestly. You could talk with any of the ladies in this thread who have been homeschooling a while, and they could show you quite the list of things they tried before they found their groove and had things click. So keep at it. About the 4th or 5th program you try, you'll finally know what you want and why. :)

[Heather in VA]

That made me smile. It's funny b/c I do this in other areas of life, but it hasn't transferred over into school too much yet. Like at church, a lot of our friends bring snacks and quiet toys to keep their children quiet. We realized at some point that that just led to lots of demands for more snacks and toys, so we don't allow anything except maybe some crayons and paper. A few weeks ago we went to a friend's choral concert at another church. An older lady in the row behind us must have been horrified to see 4 young children walk in--she made sure we knew exactly where the cry room was. Well the baby fell asleep on DH's shoulder and the others sat quietly for the whole hour. As we were leaving, the lady gushed over how well behaved dc were. I didn't tell her it's b/c they're trained to sit for an hour and a half every week.

 

Now, I just need to implement that philosophy in school...

 

You know, I had the same problem when I first started. I think that made the kids take extra advantage because they were so surprised that I was being manipulated by their whining. I had to get past the idea of homeschooling being some kind of surreal experience and realize that it's school. There are academic and disciplinary requirements. I want them to be interested and have a joy of learning but not at the expense of learning the skills they need. This doesn't mean they can't have any choices. For example, I recently chose a couple of living science books I wanted my middle dd to read. It didn't matter which we did first so I told her she could choose. She didn't get to decide IF we read the books, just what order they were done in. I do the same with literature. I give her a pile of books we will cover and she chooses which one is next. So she's still covering what I decide is required but has some control over how it's done. She doesn't get to say 'I don't want to read this.'

 

I'm also not blind to reality. I don't let them say no, but I do pay attention. If it's clear something isn't working or I've chosen something too hard or to easy, I don't just say 'do it' no matter what. I do consider how things are going. I just don't make a change when they are whining. I've gone down that road and it's just frustration.

 

Heather

[lovemykids]

First, let me say that you have been given good advice. I'm sure that you can follow it and have everything go very well for you. And I really like WWE, don’t get me wrong. But if it’s not working for your child, there are other ways. Charlotte Mason didn’t have her students do dictation until third or fourth grade. Instead she focused on copywork with great models, increasing in difficulty with longer and longer passages to get them ready for dictation. We have used this method in our homeschool and it has worked wonderfully. Just another POV. Personally, if I were in your situation, I would not take a child all the way back to WWE 1, instead I would work on the other skills until they were ready for WWE 3. It can be done, that’s all I have to say. :D

[siloam]

I've read most of the thread, but not all of it. I can't tell you what to do because that is your decision to make, but I can tell you what we do here.

 

BTW I do use SL LA K, 1 and 2, but it is the old LA that has twice the dictation. I don't use the writing part, but do use the sentences provided as dictation (and not copywork), so my kids start doing dictation by grade 1 like it or not. (I am such a slave driver.) :D I start FLL 1/2 and WWE 1 in grade 2. I wait because I prefer to focus on reading, and I don't like to do copywork with passages my children can't read, which would happen if I started WWE 1 in 1st grade.

 

In this house, if they don't like it they do it anyway. Yes I do look for ways to make it more fun if I can. But to be honest if they don't like copywork, dictation, and narration there isn't a lot of ways to make it more fun, other than possibly choosing passages they find more interesting.

 

My philosophy is there is always going to be something they have to learn that they don't want to. They still have to. It isn't optional. That said if a child has mastered a skill, and there isn't any reasons to pursue it farther I don't. My oldest could do summary narrations without being taught, so I allowed her to do lapbooking instead of something more formal like WWE. I still have her do dictation because it works on handwriting, auditory skills, writing skills and spelling all at once. Plus the one year I dropped it was the one year my oldest didn't improve in her spelling. :blink: There will come a day when it is dropped, it just isn't time yet.

 

BTW my oldest is doing 4 dictation sentences a day, my 2nd dd is doing 2, my 3rd and 4th children do about 1 dictation sentence a day.

 

Heather

[Heather in VA]

First, let me say that you have been given good advice. I'm sure that you can follow it and have everything go very well for you. And I really like WWE, don’t get me wrong. But if it’s not working for your child, there are other ways. Charlotte Mason didn’t have her students do dictation until third or fourth grade. Instead she focused on copywork with great models, increasing in difficulty with longer and longer passages to get them ready for dictation. We have used this method in our homeschool and it has worked wonderfully. Just another POV. Personally, if I were in your situation, I would not take a child all the way back to WWE 1, instead I would work on the other skills until they were ready for WWE 3. It can be done, that’s all I have to say. :D

 

I feel the need to come in here since I came down hard on the side of 'don't give to the whining'. I absolutely believe that but I do not in any way mean to imply that I'm saying you must continue with dictation. As lovemykids says, there are other ways to do LA. I do a lot of copywork and a lot less dictation. And I don't think dictation needs to be done with young ones. My point with my other post was that don't let the whining be the driving force to a change. But you are new at this. You will change. Just change because you are honing your vision for what you want for your children academically and developmentally. You will choose things you end up giving up. If you are like me you will buy things multiple times and sell them multiple times. Some day ask me about my history with Classical Writing (which I now use religiously but it's been a long road). You will change your focus along the way. As the kids grow, things will change. But the best lesson to learn up front, to spare you the grief that many of us went through, is to make curriculum and academic decisions based on your plan, not on their reaction to your plan.

 

Lovemykids is right. CM has a lovely way to do LA. Read about it. Consider it. See if it resonates with you. Check out Classical Writing. Check out WWE. Compare them all. Come here and ask questions. It takes a long time to wrap your mind around what you want to achieve and how to get there. I've been homeschooling for 5 years now and have a high schooler, a 5th grader and a 1st grader. But I still have to keep evaluating what we are doing, making sure I'm on track with our goals etc. It's easier now to see if we are on track because over the years I've gotten better at knowing what I want to do. But it takes time.

 

Ok I've babbled enough. Hopefully some of it made sense.

 

Heather

[lovemykids]

CM has a lovely way to do LA. Read about it. Consider it. See if it resonates with you. Check out Classical Writing. Check out WWE. Compare them all. Come here and ask questions. It takes a long time to wrap your mind around what you want to achieve and how to get there. I've been homeschooling for 5 years now and have a high schooler, a 5th grader and a 1st grader. But I still have to keep evaluating what we are doing, making sure I'm on track with our goals etc. It's easier now to see if we are on track because over the years I've gotten better at knowing what I want to do. But it takes time.

 

 

:iagree:

 

 

and a couple more thoughts..

 

 

By fourth grade my dd was doing two paragraph passages for dictation. (this was after writing copywork for four years, and completing her own creative writing; stories, books etc.) We worked on narration skills through the years as well.

 

I wanted to mention SL LA, we are using it this year with modification. My youngest dd (third grade SL LA 4) has found the dictation dry and boring, so we are back to letting her choose her own (mom approved) passages for copywork. The writing assignments are lacking instruction, yes, but I feel like I can provide that when it’s needed, otherwise they are not too shabby. The grammar is so light; can we really call that grammar? So overall, we like it I guess for writing ideas..would I purchase it again? Probably not, I am glad we bought it used. But it's been fun for the most part.

 

You will find the way that's best for your family through trial and error. :)

 

Enjoy!

Edited January 9, 2010 by lovemykids
very funny typo!

[lovemykids]

 

In this house, if they don't like it they do it anyway. Yes I do look for ways to make it more fun if I can. But to be honest if they don't like copywork, dictation, and narration there isn't a lot of ways to make it more fun, other than possibly choosing passages they find more interesting.

 

 

:iagree:

 

I have also found that copywork teaches spelling! Dictation more so, yes, but my third grade dd hadn't had a bit of spelling at the beginning of this year, and she tested above level. We did phonics and copywork instead. :)

[Capt_Uhura]

Lovemykids - quick question for you. WHen you say your DC does 2-paragraph dictation, is that 2 paragraphs completely from memory after you say it 2-3x? Or do you break it up?

 

Thanks,

Capt_Uhura

[lovemykids]

Lovemykids - quick question for you. WHen you say your DC does 2-paragraph dictation, is that 2 paragraphs completely from memory after you say it 2-3x? Or do you break it up?

 

Thanks,

Capt_Uhura

 

 

For my then fourth grader, now fifth grader…I did have to break it up a bit, at first, or sometimes quite a bit! It was basically all new to her; she had some limited experience with single dictated sentences for spelling previously, but that was all.

And now we try to do it mostly without, and my dd is successful about 95% of the time. She may get a few words off here and there, but I think she’s doing a wonderful job. Although, she is allowed to study the passage beforehand, which I think helps. And everybody has those days, if she needs something repeated, I will help her. I’m not that strict about the whole thing, but I make her try her best.

:)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

For my then fourth grader, now fifth grader…I did have to break it up a bit, at first, or sometimes quite a bit! It was basically all new to her; she had some limited experience with single dictated sentences for spelling previously, but that was all.

And now we try to do it mostly without, and my dd is successful about 95% of the time. She may get a few words off here and there, but I think she’s doing a wonderful job. Although, she is allowed to study the passage beforehand, which I think helps. And everybody has those days, if she needs something repeated, I will help her. I’m not that strict about the whole thing, but I make her try her best.

:)

 

That is good to know since I was going to ask about that as well:) I think that letting them study the passage beforehand and breaking it up are great techniques especially since I cannot imagine even myself holding a whole paragraph in my head verbatim.

[Capt_Uhura]

Thank you!!!!!! I'm trying to decide what to do w/ my DS9. He just finished WWE2. As far as narration, he could do WWE4 no problem. But those long passages all in one swoop? But for me, I think the narration is more important skill. He doesn't seem to have any issues w/ writing down his own thoughts so I don't want to spend a year on WWE3 and then another on WWE4 if it's not moving him forward. But if I let him study the passage beforehand, look at any words he needs help spelling, then read it to him a couple of times, he'd be fine w/ WWE4 I think. I just didn't want to miss some critical step in the process by not fully appreciating the importance of being able to recall and write down such long passages. For note taking, you're writing notes and not concerned w/ punctuation etc...more outline form. And if he has no issues w/ writing his own thoughts, I'm using WWE for spelling, writing quality sentences from good literature, and grammar rather than for memory work.

[Lovedtodeath]

Were you asking for help or streaming your thoughts? :)

 

When my baby was the age yours is now, we weren't exactly having great school days either, lol. No kung fu, unless you count my own loss of mind and flailing motions, lol. But truthfully, you still have to deal with the discipline problems, even if you change curricula. You still have to get your kid to follow the standards of proper writing. They still need to answer in complete sentences, unless you want them to grow up grunting. So if MCT helps you make that happen, cool. It might be a little challenging right now, considering it's all parent-driven. In your shoes I'd probably go back to the very beginning of WWE, the level *1* assignments, and start from there. They'll be easy, not take long, and be something you can actually get done in between karate chops and baby slops. I'd pick a small amount, just doing 1 little lesson a day from the level 1 in the main WWE book, and do it. A little bit done faithfully every day will get you somewhere in the end.

 

It may be that the reason she was so frustrated is because she doesn't have the skills. You can't jump the steps in the process, no matter how bright or old she is. Go back to the beginning and build a proper foundation.

:iagree:Exactly what I was thinking. Elizabeth, you rock.

[Lovedtodeath]

Okay, I read the rest of the thread, and now I am confused. CM instructs us to do studied dictation. I noticed that WWE seemed to have dictation without the study, so I asked if WWE had studied dictation and I was told yes, it isn't just dictating without prior study. So what's up with that?

[lovemykids]

Thank you!!!!!! I'm trying to decide what to do w/ my DS9. He just finished WWE2. As far as narration, he could do WWE4 no problem. But those long passages all in one swoop? But for me, I think the narration is more important skill. He doesn't seem to have any issues w/ writing down his own thoughts so I don't want to spend a year on WWE3 and then another on WWE4 if it's not moving him forward. But if I let him study the passage beforehand, look at any words he needs help spelling, then read it to him a couple of times, he'd be fine w/ WWE4 I think. I just didn't want to miss some critical step in the process by not fully appreciating the importance of being able to recall and write down such long passages. For note taking, you're writing notes and not concerned w/ punctuation etc...more outline form. And if he has no issues w/ writing his own thoughts, I'm using WWE for spelling, writing quality sentences from good literature, and grammar rather than for memory work.

 

Well, I don’t see why you couldn’t move him to WWE 4. If you modify the dictation ever so slightly at first, he can quickly build up to it.

Charlotte Mason is a time tested educational methodology. She does things differently than SWB, but the method does work. Dictation is still dictation whether a kid can do it perfectly or not. The process is what you want, and you will see the desired results.

There honestly is no need for all of this backing up and starting from the beginning nonsense. Not in every case, not at all. Children can skip complete grades and come out just fine, if not ahead, in the end. But we can choose to believe what we want to…

[lovemykids]

:iagree:Exactly what I was thinking. Elizabeth, you rock.

:thumbup1:

 

Elizabeth, I do agree with the fact that you “rock†even if I don’t agree with your educational philosophy 100%. I love to hear your acquired wisdom on this forum. :tongue_smilie:

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Children can skip complete grades and come out just fine, if not ahead, in the end. But we can choose to believe what we want to…

:iagree:Pamela H. in Texas had her son behind by 3 - 4 grades in homeschool because of LDs and the PS put him at grade level for the K-12 program and he met the challenge.

[lovemykids]

Okay, I read the rest of the thread, and now I am confused. CM instructs us to do studied dictation. I noticed that WWE seemed to have dictation without the study, so I asked if WWE had studied dictation and I was told yes, it isn't just dictating without prior study. So what's up with that?

 

I believe it’s all oral with WWE, while with CM it’s an actual studying of the passage and repeating the same amount of times, or more. There isn’t one “right†way of doing things.

 

:001_smile:

[lovemykids]

:iagree:Pamela H. in Texas had her son behind by 3 - 4 grades in homeschool because of LDs and the PS put him at grade level for the K-12 program and he met the challenge.

 

Yes and gifted students skip grades all the time, both in homeschool and public school. Some homeschooling parents routinely advance their average students by a grade or more, it’s quite common.

[RootAnn]

Like at church, a lot of our friends bring snacks and quiet toys to keep their children quiet. We realized at some point that that just led to lots of demands for more snacks and toys, so we don't allow anything except maybe some crayons and paper.

 

:lol: We're considered "mean" because we came to this same conclusion and we don't let the kids have "activity bags" that are available at our church for the little ones. Ours can have one "snuggly" or a religious-themed book (of which there are MANY to choose from) from home.

 

It is amazing what kids can do when they are expected to do it & trained from an early age.

 

Now, saying that, I still struggle with my kids' behavior every day. It is an on-going challenge.

[Capt_Uhura]

bonniebeth4 - sorry to have hijacked your thread. I hope the answers to my question help you with yours. :001_huh:

 

Off to read about CM dictation and re-read Writer's Jungle.

 

Capt_Uhura

[TKDmom]

Well, I don’t see why you couldn’t move him to WWE 4. If you modify the dictation ever so slightly at first, he can quickly build up to it.

 

Charlotte Mason is a time tested educational methodology. She does things differently than SWB, but the method does work. Dictation is still dictation whether a kid can do it perfectly or not. The process is what you want, and you will see the desired results.

 

There honestly is no need for all of this backing up and starting from the beginning nonsense. Not in every case, not at all. Children can skip complete grades and come out just fine, if not ahead, in the end. But we can choose to believe what we want to…

 

Thanks. ;) I have the text for all 4 years, so I think I am going to go ahead and start with the principles from the first year (which I never did). I'll evaluate how she does and probably skip ahead as soon as she shows proficiency/willingness to do the work. I think I'll look into CM dictation if WWE continues to be too painful...

 

Last night, I told DH some of things that people have said in this thread. Then, I overheard him talking to DD. It was interesting hearing him tell her that being unwilling to do a task is the same as being unable to do it. That she would be going back to 1st grade work until her attitude shapes up and she shows that she is able to do the 1st grade work. She started whining, and then they had a nice little discussion on how responsible people do things they don't like to do, b/c it needs to get done. "You don't think Mommy likes doing the dishes do you? But she does them anyway, without complaining." :D (Well, maybe I complain sometimes).

 

I'm still grinding my teeth at the damage DD's schoolteachers did to her. She used to come home and tell us, "I'm the youngest one in my class, and the smartest." Why do they feel the need to tell kids they are the smartest?! I think a sincere, "great job" is a lot more meaningful and appropriate. Kids should be rewarded for their efforts, not for their innate ability. But that's another post.

 

And thanks for all the input on altering dictation. I have a hard time with scripted materials, b/c I forget that the text should be a suggestion, not ironclad rules. If I give myself the freedom to alter things to suit us, the instruction goes so much more smoothly.

 

BTW, I got my MCT materials yesterday and I've been reading through Grammar Island. I won't start it up immediately, but oooh. Finally I get to learn grammar ;). I was never taught any sort of grammar (beyond the definitions of nouns, adjectives, and verbs). I had no idea that articles were a type of adjective.... I remember suffering through my sophomore year of high school when the teacher was trying to teach everyone else how to use commas and question marks. And the reaction I got from my technical writing professor when I asked what a preposition was (I'd had him for senior level chemistry classes and he couldn't believe I was asking such a dumb question). But I digress. I think this text will work very nicely with DD's learning style, too.

 

bonniebeth4 - sorry to have hijacked your thread. I hope the answers to my question help you with yours. :001_huh:

 

Off to read about CM dictation and re-read Writer's Jungle.

 

Capt_Uhura

 

I don't mind hijacks. :D It's fun to see where the discussion leads...