Classical WORLD education

[EthiopianFood]

Classical education focuses on the Western hemisphere, with the traditional belief that this is where the classics are to be found. How does one do this type of education if one believes that "classics," i.e. works of great value from which we can benefit and learn that have shaped culture and tend to stand the test of time, are found all over the world? I think SOTW does an excellent job of this, but that is only a starting point.

 

Maybe what I'm looking for is something prescriptive, not descriptive. If this is an area that you value, and you had to write a book on Classical World Education, what would be your main ideas? One thing I wonder about is the focus on Latin. This language obviously impacted more than just an isolated part of the world, but what about Arabic? Why is this not equally important?

 

Okay, that's the best I can do. I always think of these things when it is very late, so I always end up wording things strangely, or otherwise just being unclear. :tongue_smilie: I'm just curious if there are others who have thought about this as well. I love this focus on a rigorous education, but it doesn't connect with my personal values and beliefs. I can't be the only one!

[Cammie]

I think you make a very good point. For example here, in India, a "classical" education would be Sanskrit based with a reliance on all the ancient and traditional Sanskrit texts. I am sure there is a sub-set of homeschoolers that would be interested in following a world classics curriculum. I, for one, would be very interested in exposing my children to the best that all societies have to offer. Maybe you can write it and be the next SWB??

[meet me in paris]

:bigear:

 

We're big-world educators, too. I'm all ears.

[nono]

...and Chinese! It's the main reason my children are learning to read traditional Chinese characters.

 

I have a bit more time to ponder this as my older is on in K. I am planning on "Ancient China" being part of Gr. 1 though. I would love to include the rest of the non-Western world too. Chinese simply is where we'll start due to heritage.

[Saille]

How funny! I was just thinking yesterday that I hoped Arabic numerals were sufficient, b/c that's about all we do!

 

I have had difficulty finding "Great Books" type lists that were not entirely Western Civ.. We did talk quite a bit about the Dark Ages and the fact that while they were going on, Algebra was being invented elsewhere.

 

Next year is my ds's last year of grammar stage, so I'm curious as to what resources/ideas this thread might yield.

[elegantlion]

I would probably start by looking at the myths and fables of non-western cultures. You could probably find a selection of stories at the library. I'm not awake enough to articulate more, but that's where I'd start.

[dangermom]

Classical education focuses on the Western hemisphere, with the traditional belief that this is where the classics are to be found.

I'm not sure that this is entirely true. Lots of Western classical educationalists focus on the West, but that's not a requirement or anything, and SWB has certainly made efforts to include other cultures on reading lists and history books (I'm reading an advance copy of History of the Medieval World right now, and there is a heck of a lot about China, Korea, etc.).

 

I think there's probably an idea with many American classicists that it's good to focus on Western traditions at first, in order to understand the roots of our own culture--and then you can expand from there. I don't know that I agree with that, really.

 

For those looking for more inclusive GB lists, you might like to look at The new lifetime reading plan by Clifton Fadiman, which has been expanded to include the major classics from more cultures.

 

More in a bit.

[angela in ohio]

I think there's probably an idea with many American classicists that it's good to focus on Western traditions at first, in order to understand the roots of our own culture--and then you can expand from there. I don't know that I agree with that, really.

 

That is the thought. That once you understand and respect your own culture, you are more ready to respect what someone else's culture means to them.

 

When oldest were younger, we did SOTW, which includes chapters on non-Western cultures, and added in many legends and tales from other lands, as a pp said. That is a great start for younger dc. I just made a list and we worked through them: African tall tales, Chinese folk tales, etc. Our library had many books on them (they are very popular with school curriculum and school teachers.)

[dangermom]

More: we have always focused a lot on Japanese and Korean folk tales, and also on Indian literature. Like most homeschoolers, we just ransack the 398 section of the library a lot of the time. :001_smile:

 

But one thing I really like, if you're looking for something more, is the books from Amar Chitra Katha. You know how you can get comic-book-type versions of Bible stories--this is the equivalent for India. They have comic books of, AFAICT, all of the great literature, history, mythology, religion, and folktales of India (there are Hindu, Sikh, and Buddhist stories; don't know about Muslim). I had a few when I was a kid and loved them, and I bought some more for my kids. I'd love to get more someday!

[sleepymommy]

I've thought a lot about this subject as well. I do believe other ancient languages would be great to add to Latin and Greek. Being of Indian origin, I've wanted to study Sanskrit and would like my children to be exposed to it as well.

 

Dangermom's suggestion of the Amar Chitra Katha books is excellent. I would add the Mahabharata and the Ramayana. These ancient epics are filled with moral stories. It must be noted though that practically the entire text has multiple levels of meaning that are meant to go deeper as one gets older. There is a lot of symbolism. A children's version is definately the way to go, but even then the kids should be little older (7-8 yrs). Another good collection of moral stories is the Panchtantra. It uses a lot of animal characters. My boys love these stories. But there are some stories that involve death, so if your kids are very sensitive it might not be a good selection.

 

For history, the Puffin History of India for Children books are great.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Puffin-History-India-Children-3000/dp/0143335448

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Puffin-History-India-Children-Present/dp/0143335464/ref=pd_sim_b_1

 

There are many wonderful authors, such as Kushwant Singh and Rabindranath Tagore. There are some children's titles by them. I'm running late right now and don't have time to look them up, but can post later.

 

I eager to learn about resources for China, Korea and Japan.

[sleepymommy]

 

I think there's probably an idea with many American classicists that it's good to focus on Western traditions at first, in order to understand the roots of our own culture--and then you can expand from there. I don't know that I agree with that, really.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

This is where I feel an internal tug-of-war. We live here, we are American,

but our roots go back to the East. My kids and I definitely need to know the roots of where we live now, but at the same time I don't want them to forget where they came from. Trying to balance is difficult. So I would love a resource for a Classical World Education that lays it all out there for me.

[Amira]

While I certainly agree with your concerns, I haven't really had a problem creating a classical world education for my children. We certainly don't focus on Europe, although Europe is more important in our curriculum that it would be if we were from and lived in Asia. So my children are learning Latin, but also Persian. We spend a lot of time on geography, and I'm picky about our history resources. Like dangermom said, the 398 section of the library is a great place to look.

 

I don't really wish for anyone to put together a classical world curriculum because I think it would be difficult for someone to do an excellent job. Instead, I've had good luck using suggestions of good books from different regions suggested by people on this board (IIRC, Laura in China and Kate in Arabia both have put together helpful suggestions for teaching children about China and Islam, and I've worked on the same for Central Asia- I'm sure there are others here who've done more). I'd rather ask people who have taught children and know the subject what they use, instead of relying on someone to pull all that together for me. Those more comprehensive lists always leave something out I think is important.

[stripe]

I share an interest in this as well. I have begun to buy books about various other civilizations in order to develop something of this myself.

 

I would add this: Destiny Disrupted: A History of the World through Islamic Eyes by Tamim Ansary. The author discusses how, as a child, he loved reading many of the famous western historical narratives for children (Van Loom, etc). It is not particularly written to children, but I think for a slightly older child, teen, or adult, it could be a useful addition to the repertoire. The preliminary comments in the book alone are interesting, about the concept of history, and what events are pivotal.

[Brooketopia]

One thing I'm planning on doing is exposing my children to the music of the world...I was lucky to have an excellent ethnomusicologist as my high school choir director and she intentionally avoided "dead white man" music in order to expose us to ALL the music that there was. (I went on to study music in college, and found that her focus was a little too extreme...felt kind of lost the first semester!)

 

I'll just find classic pieces from whatever area we're studying in history at the time and we'll use that for our music appreciation pieces. We'll get plenty of "dead white man" music when we go through the Middle Ages and Renaissance.

 

I also studied history in college, with my focus being on Ancient China (mostly Han and Tang), and I want to share that beautiful world with my girls in addition to all the other cultures.

 

My husband cannot stand the pentatonic scale and tires of the rhythms in African and Latin music...even when those structures come through in "regular" music. It's a weird thing to me and I want to avoid that for my girls.

 

It's not a fix-all, but I feel that it may help open the doors--explore the music and that leads to other arts, which can spark interest in particular cultures and their stories, legal systems, beliefs, etc.

 

Well, that's the hope...we'll see how it goes.

[dangermom]

My husband cannot stand the pentatonic scale and tires of the rhythms in African and Latin music...even when those structures come through in "regular" music. It's a weird thing to me and I want to avoid that for my girls.

 

I know what you mean. I try to expose my girls to a lot of different music, but I'm not that good at it. However, I really like Indian films and music, and I listen to quite a bit of Hindi film music--and my husband can't stand it. It sounds discordant to his ears, which I can't quite figure out. (I can certainly understand his dislike of the girls' singing voices, that's an acquired taste for a Westerner, but the music itself doesn't sound discordant at all to me.)

 

My girls and I are planning on burning a CD of Bollywood music so we can rock out in the car where he won't hear us. :D

[Colleen in NS]

How does one do this type of education if one believes that "classics," i.e. works of great value from which we can benefit and learn that have shaped culture and tend to stand the test of time, are found all over the world?

 

If this is an area that you value, and you had to write a book on Classical World Education, what would be your main ideas?

 

I worked with a large, international missions organization for over six years in my pre-married life, so this interests me, too. I have friends from that time of my life all over the world.

 

What I've pretty much done is take the learning principles in WTM, and the reading lists/history frameworks, and dug into the library for more obscure-to-my-part-of-the-world books. We just read what we can of those and apply learning principles (like writing skills) to what we are reading. It's not all laid out and super organized, but I think we are setting a good foundation for any future learning they might want to do. We are going through the process of learning Latin, for example. Maybe they will want to learn Chinese or Arabic - I think their Latin process will help them to figure out a pattern for learning Chinese or Arabic. Or maybe they will want to read some classic Indian literature - they will hopefully learn via the WTM/WEM methods that Indian lit. has its own structure, and if they can figure it out and analyze it, they will be able to enjoy it.

 

I don't think anyone could really write an all-encompassing book on a classical world education - a person could never learn all that in a lifetime, but we can start with learning skills that we have, and go from there. Maybe I'd meet a person who knows how to read deeply of Indian literature - maybe that person could tell me some things about it that would help me to apply the skills I already know, to this new structure.

 

That's how I go about it, anyway. It seems like a fun adventure, once I get some basic skills under my belt (writing, analyzing, reading, learning patterns, etc.). A few weeks ago, I was searching my library website for something - I can't remember what - but I came across a book that looked like it would be a classic Indian (or was it middle eastern, I can't remember) book. So I checked it out, and had a quick scan - had never heard of it before, or seen it on western books lists. Anyway, this morning I was reading an astronomy book, and lo and behold, there was a quote that was said to have come from this same book!!! Then I knew it probably was a classic in that culture, if it's quoted in a self-education astronomy book.

[Amy in TX]

I use the WTM with its history and literature suggestions as a starting point. I want my children to study the history of the entire world, and be exposed to the best literature from all cultures. (The major difficulty is not that non-Western cultures don't have enough great literature; it's that you often can't find English translations of it or it has been preserved primarily orally.)

 

A poster on these boards, Eliana, has posted literature lists for many, many cultures. I've gotten a lot of ideas from her posts--search the forums for threads tagged "Eliana's lit lists."

 

Another great discovery was the history text I am using for high school. It's called Heritage of World Civilizations, and it really is a world history text, as opposed to a western history one. Here is a link:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Heritage-World-Civilizations-1-8th/dp/0136002773/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262715790&sr=1-1

 

There is also a website that goes with this book, with interactive maps, supplemental readings, quizzes, and study guides:

 

http://wps.prenhall.com/hss_craig_herwldcivb_2/17/4596/1176577.cw/index.html

[kpupg]

I am trying to do this with my kids.

 

We are not centering our curriculum on languages ... but we are reading classics from various areas of the world as it seems to line up with our history content.

 

For example, these past couple of weeks were focusing on the rise of Islam, and I required my son to read part of the Koran. When we were studying the ancient Americas, it was the Popul Vuh. For ancient China, we read Monkey, the Analects, and The Art of War.

 

It has required me to spend a LOT of time searching Amazon and our library database for appropriate books. They are not always catalogued in the way I first think to search ... sigh, why can't they read my mind? But I HAVE been able to find something for every area/time period we have covered so far.

 

Is this what you were thinking about?

Karen

[nmoira]

I'm still working on history. We haven't placed an emphasis on Western legends, traditions, epics, etc., though they're certainly covered. We have a number of volumes of series of world legends, and stories at different reading levels.

 

One thing I've tried to do is to bring in as many respected translated works or works from other cultures as possible. DD the Elder got the ball rolling on this one. :)

 

Some resources:

Outside In: Children's Books in Translation

These are a series:

Children's Books from Other Countries

The World Through Children's Books

Crossing Boundaries with Children's Books

 

The

Batchelder Award winners

[abreakfromlife]

 

However, I really like Indian films and music, and I listen to quite a bit of Hindi film music

I love Bollywood music. And the Hindi language - the way it just pours out of their mouths so fast and musically....it sounds so cool. I wish I had a need to learn Hindi...even if I wanted to visit there, they all speak English :tongue_smilie:

[sleepymommy]

 

It has required me to spend a LOT of time searching Amazon and our library database for appropriate books. They are not always catalogued in the way I first think to search ... sigh, why can't they read my mind? But I HAVE been able to find something for every area/time period we have covered so far.

 

Is this what you were thinking about?

Karen

 

For me, yes this is what I am thinking. The researching takes forever, some things can't be found at the library, so I purchase (oft with international shipping) and they can be hit or miss. I hate wasting money on duds and there isn't a lot of need for these books so reselling is out.

 

I'd love something well researched, very much like WTM with recommendations and descriptions of different resources.

[Rosie_0801]

I'd love something well researched, very much like WTM with recommendations and descriptions of different resources.

 

I think I'd like something like WEM, actually. I'd also like to find a suitable list so my kids can study Australian history through literature in high school, but I haven't really found anything suitable yet. Still, I have plenty of time ;)

 

Rosie

[AngelBee]

Great thread!

[Peela]

I'd also like to find a suitable list so my kids can study Australian history through literature in high school, but I haven't really found anything suitable yet. Still, I have plenty of time ;)

 

Rosie

 

Oh yeah, that woudl be good, Rosie. Tell me when you find it :)

 

I love the idea of classical world education but I dont see the problem...TWTM does cover it, SOTW does cover it, KHE covers it...you just keep going in the same direction. There is an abundance of literature available. We have the internet...I dont see an issue, except that we all (well, many of us) would like a SOTW for older kids so we didnt haven't to work it out for ourselves.

 

My problem is not lack of resources at all. In fact, just the opposite. There is only so much time in the school day, and only so many books we literally have time to read.

The other issue is...because time is a limited resource, you can cover the world thinly and not go too deep anywhere. Somewhere, you will have to prioritise. We did spend extra time on Greek and Roman history because it is our western history. But we still have covered India, China, Africa etc

[sleepymommy]

There are many wonderful authors, such as Kushwant Singh and Rabindranath Tagore. There are some children's titles by them. I'm running late right now and don't have time to look them up, but can post later.

 

 

These are what I have bookmarked for future purchase:

http://www.flipkart.com/khushwant-singh-selects-best-indian/8172234643-yv23frj6lb

 

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/IDC620/

 

Also Tagore's Gitanjali is a classic, absolutely beautiful.

 

Malgudi Days by RK Narayan is another good one (as are most of his books)

http://www.amazon.com/Malgudi-Days-Classic-20th-Century-Penguin/dp/0140185437

[Happy]

My son used Trisms History during his high school years. One of the things we loved most about it was the broad sweep of cultures and times we got to visit--ancient China, ancient Mayan, India, etc. There were a lot of suggestions for reading as well. We have traveled to many countries and this fed our culture and history addiction.

 

We added a food component and it would be easy to add languages as well.

[EthiopianFood]

That is the thought. That once you understand and respect your own culture, you are more ready to respect what someone else's culture means to them.

 

I guess it doesn't feel that way to me, personally. They are called Great Books, and the Classics, for a reason. I don't think they ARE considered equal in a lot of camps. Also, my worldview emphasizes the fact that "your own culture" is a matter of pure chance. If I had been born in India, I would be studying something completely different. Practically speaking, I see how Western culture is more relevant but, especially in today's world, I don't think Latin is more relevant to my child's life than Arabic. That really isn't the point of the thread, but maybe that gives some background to my question. I can understand where my own culture came from, but I also want to understand how to value all cultures, as well as how to be the best person I can be TODAY, which involves being exposed to ideas that AREN'T always found in my cultural traditions. I appreciate hearing your reasons for studying more Western culture, as I can now look for these themes when I come across more traditional texts.

 

Dangermom's suggestion of the Amar Chitra Katha books is excellent. I would add the Mahabharata and the Ramayana. These ancient epics are filled with moral stories. It must be noted though that practically the entire text has multiple levels of meaning that are meant to go deeper as one gets older. There is a lot of symbolism. A children's version is definately the way to go, but even then the kids should be little older (7-8 yrs). Another good collection of moral stories is the Panchtantra. It uses a lot of animal characters. My boys love these stories. But there are some stories that involve death, so if your kids are very sensitive it might not be a good selection.

 

For history, the Puffin History of India for Children books are great.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Puffin-History-India-Children-3000/dp/0143335448

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Puffin-History-India-Children-Present/dp/0143335464/ref=pd_sim_b_1

 

Thank you for this, to both you and dangermom! I have seen those comics, and wondered how historically accurate and unbiased they were. I am THRILLED to hear they are good! I love India so much, and I am excited to teach my children about the history and culture. I have read abridged versions of the Mahabharat and the Ramayan, as I was too overwhelmed to read the full texts. :D Can you recommend accessible English translations?

[EthiopianFood]

I don't really wish for anyone to put together a classical world curriculum because I think it would be difficult for someone to do an excellent job. Instead, I've had good luck using suggestions of good books from different regions suggested by people on this board (IIRC, Laura in China and Kate in Arabia both have put together helpful suggestions for teaching children about China and Islam, and I've worked on the same for Central Asia- I'm sure there are others here who've done more). I'd rather ask people who have taught children and know the subject what they use, instead of relying on someone to pull all that together for me. Those more comprehensive lists always leave something out I think is important.

 

Such an excellent point. This is why I don't like reading about a culture from someone who doesn't belong to that culture themself. It does make it challenging though, as I can't ask about something of which I have never heard! Also, how to prioritize? There are just so many regions, languages, cultures, both ancient and modern. Though some may have more of an impact on the world, you never know what wisdom you might find from a small, lesser known group.

 

I would add this: Destiny Disrupted: A History of the World through Islamic Eyes by Tamim Ansary.

 

This looks great!

 

One thing I'm planning on doing is exposing my children to the music of the world...

 

I had planned to do this as well. Have you had much luck in finding a variety of sources?

 

 

It has required me to spend a LOT of time searching Amazon and our library database for appropriate books. They are not always catalogued in the way I first think to search ... sigh, why can't they read my mind? But I HAVE been able to find something for every area/time period we have covered so far.

 

This is what is frustrating for me, although it is encouraging to hear you have found what you were looking for thus far. Although I stated that I agreed with the PP that you can't really trust someone else's idea of what is important in another's culture, I wish there WAS something complied anyway. ;)

 

After reading these wonderful replies, I am thinking that clarifying subjects would be helpful in this pursuit. For instance, music, major works of literature, major religions, art, etc. in each region. I'm a list-type person, so I need this focus. :)

 

My next issue is, how do you prioritize? Are the cultures often introduced as significant, truly significant in the eyes of the world, or just when looking at the world from a Western perspective? :bigear:

[angela in ohio]

I appreciate hearing your reasons for studying more Western culture, as I can now look for these themes when I come across more traditional texts.

 

 

I think you misunderstand, and I think your lecture is misplaced. Did you read the rest of my post? I was explaining why many classical educators focus on Western culture, expounding on what dangermom had posted. I then went on to explain what we do in our family to incorporate other cultures.

[EthiopianFood]

I think you misunderstand, and I think your lecture is misplaced. Did you read the rest of my post? I was explaining why many classical educators focus on Western culture, expounding on what dangermom had posted. I then went on to explain what we do in our family to incorporate other cultures.

 

I'm not sure why you interpreted my explaining my own beliefs as a lecture, or why you think I didn't read your post simply because I didn't address everything you wrote, but okay. :confused: