"Why would a homeschooler not make straight A's?"

[myfatherslily]

After re-reading my post, I just wanted to clarify that I don't think a parent should NOT work hard to ensure that her children have learned. I also think that if a child is not doing well, a parent SHOULD consider whether the teaching itself was thorough. I'm talking specifically about those who would go out of their way to make sure their child did not have a B on his transcript, simply because he's homeschooled.

 

I've enjoyed this thread:) Excellent things to consider once I actually start grading myself! My DD would fail any test in which there was a time limit or a requirement to do the work by yourself, without someone standing over your shoulder reminding you to do the next step;) Yeah, we're working on that... lol...

[unsinkable]

DH and I have had this conversation. He is adamantly opposed to giving credit for corrections. He says it is not real world and give the kids false expectations of the way things work. He says he would love it if his boss let him keep working until he got it mastered!

As for mastery, I honestly believe there are some things the kids just can't master. Mental maturity and experience play a part. Apprehend, yes, comprehend, no. Because of that, getting all A's is not possible. There were things I learned in school (I was an A student) that I reviewed as an adult in my twenties and I suddenly went, "Now I know what I was doing!"

 

All this aside, we haven't really worried about "grades" until this year with my oldest.

 

What does this mean? Does it mean that your dh always turns in perfect work to his boss? Or does it mean he turns in imperfect work and the boss accepts it? Or does it mean something else? :confused:

[unsinkable]

After re-reading my post, I just wanted to clarify that I don't think a parent should NOT work hard to ensure that her children have learned. I also think that if a child is not doing well, a parent SHOULD consider whether the teaching itself was thorough. I'm talking specifically about those who would go out of their way to make sure their child did not have a B on his transcript, simply because he's homeschooled.

 

I've enjoyed this thread:) Excellent things to consider once I actually start grading myself! My DD would fail any test in which there was a time limit or a requirement to do the work by yourself, without someone standing over your shoulder reminding you to do the next step;) Yeah, we're working on that... lol...

 

She's five, right?

[Kareni]

Here are the other two in the series:

 

http://d-edreckoning.blogspot.com/2006/10/unclear-on-concept-day-two.html

http://d-edreckoning.blogspot.com/2006/10/unclear-on-concept-day-three.html (my favorite)

 

I enjoyed the chuckle! Thanks for sharing.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Pip]

What does this mean? Does it mean that your dh always turns in perfect work to his boss? Or does it mean he turns in imperfect work and the boss accepts it? Or does it mean something else? :confused:

 

No, it just means that life isn't set up to allow you to keep correcting your mistakes until you get it right. You have to take the consequences of what you produce, and the kids need to go into some things thinking that their first effort is going to be the one that counts. It is very easy to do a half *ssed job and know it won't matter if you get to keep correcting it until you get it right. I'm not saying there aren't times when the kids don't get it and need help, but my kids work better when they know it is their first effort that counts. It's like what Audrey said. Correct the work, but the grade is the grade.

 

I keep hearing that bosses have a hard time getting employees with a good work ethic. I can't help but wonder if it is because we live in a society that thinks we should keep working until we get it right. Or i'll still get credit if I make it look like I tried. Not saying that is the way with people here, but having taught in the public schools, it is the mentality there.

[justamouse]

No, it just means that life isn't set up to allow you to keep correcting your mistakes until you get it right. You have to take the consequences of what you produce, and the kids need to go into some things thinking that their first effort is going to be the one that counts. It is very easy to do a half *ssed job and know it won't matter if you get to keep correcting it until you get it right. I'm not saying there aren't times when the kids don't get it and need help, but my kids work better when they know it is their first effort that counts. It's like what Audrey said. Correct the work, but the grade is the grade.

 

I keep hearing that bosses have a hard time getting employees with a good work ethic. I can't help but wonder if it is because we live in a society that thinks we should keep working until we get it right. Or i'll still get credit if I make it look like I tried. Not saying that is the way with people here, but having taught in the public schools, it is the mentality there.

 

 

Well, Dh and I are bosses. And I think I'm seeing this from a different angle.

 

I get so sick and tired of people coming in and if they don't make it on the first run, they give up and walk out, or screw around until they get fired. WORK hard until you get it. Don't give up, that's for slackers. You have to make up work and are on salary? You'd better be there on Saturday.

 

We had many businesses and we failed many times. We declared bankruptcy. We lived with my parents and his, but we worked **** hard and it paid off in spades. I want my kids to KNOW that. Persistence is key. You'll still be going when everyone else has quit and if you're not in it, you can't win it. So, my kids work until they know it. Until they can flip it upside down and inside out and bend it to their wills. Dd is like that with her outsourced classes too. She will work hard at it no matter how frustrated she is. It makes me extremely proud of her.

[Pip]

Persistence is key. However, as I wrote, there is a time to give help, and a time to produce. It is all a balance.

[Jane in NC]

I enjoyed the chuckle! Thanks for sharing.

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

Indeed! Amused on this end.

 

Jane

[unsinkable]

Persistence is key. However, as I wrote, there is a time to give help, and a time to produce. It is all a balance.

 

I think of it as a pyramid. On the bottom are all the times you can do over to get it right. These times have the least or no consequences so do over until it is right. As you move up the pyramid, the stakes get higher & you get less chances. At the top are the one shot deals. The "this-is-it" moments. The final exams. The surgeries. The 2 outs, full count for the World Series at bats.

 

Certain jobs, the pyramid is much more narrow, like pilots or pharmacists, etc...

[Janet in WA]

Why would a homeschooler not get straight A's? Possibly because he graduated from our homeschool.

 

Our sons worked for mastery. But their grade depended on the degree of mastery (that wasn't perfect, absolute, complete mastery in every case) and how easily they mastered it. It also depended on their attitudes and effort. Also not always perfect. In other words, or sons' grades reflected the kind of student they were. And they were not straight A students.

[FloridaLisa]

Then he told her that she is an asset to the program but that has nothing to do with how I graded her or this thread but I am simply boasting because I am gosh-darned proud of that girl. Just ignore me.:D

 

And it'd be hard to post it as it's own thread and all. . . :D Good for you, Mom!

 

Lisa

[TexasRachel]

:iagree: It happened to me also...I graduated 8th in a class of over 200 students and couldn't pull a "C" in Western Civ:confused:

 

I was in the top 10 (7 or 8) of my 350+ class, a National Merit Scholar, and I had a 2.0 average my first year. Got my first C, D & F ever first semester of college. Bawled my eyes out. One of the reasons we homeschool is the fact that I could be "one of the best" :tongue_smilie:, be like another PP and do all my work at the last minute and still get As, but completely fail at college.

 

I've started to grade DD (6th) this year to get her ready for next year when "it'll really count". But she really is an A student most of the time.

[justamouse]

Persistence is key. However, as I wrote, there is a time to give help, and a time to produce. It is all a balance.

 

 

How is that not producing? We produce, believe me. It's not practice. My oldest also has all As on her share time at the local school.

[asta]

I find this thread interesting.

 

I bombed high school and aced uni.

 

I tried really hard in high school, and not particularly hard at uni (drove hubby nuts).

 

I wonder if some of it comes down to personality. As an aspie, high school was a living hell. I just didn't "get" it. At uni, that puzzle piece was simply absent. So, even though the classes were much more difficult, the *process* seemed much easier, and I navigated it much more easily.

 

I admit that this is a major reason that DS is home for high school. I offered to let him go to PS, but he took one look at it and shuddered. He is looking forward to uni, though.

 

 

a

[NavyWifeandMommy]

I still have 'babies' in my home so grades are not an issue here. I have started doing a percentage with my oldest. She corrects what she gets wrong but I don't change the percentage.

[Rhonda in TX]

A good friend had a C average in high school. He went to college (where I met him) and majored in biochemistry, wanting to be a doctor. He graduated with a 4.0 and is a very successful pediatrician.

 

Sometimes college just clicks (like with you), and sometimes it just finally matters.

 

I graduated 10th in a class of 477. High school was very easy for me. College? Not so much. I didn't fail by any means, but it was hard. My ADD didn't impact high school (the structure was good for me), but it sure did affect my college years (too much freedom).

[choirfarm]

In real life and when the children were younger, I did teach to mastery. Now that I have three children in very different levels, I just can't and whatever grade they get is what they get. Here are the grades for first quarter:

 

9th grader English A-, SOS Spanish B, History A, Geometry B+, Chemistry B+, Logic A

 

7th grader English A-, history B+ Typing A Chalkdust Prealgebra-B, General Science A-

 

I don't grade my 2nd grader but I'm trying to teach phonics and math to mastery and history and science when we get to it. There isn't enough of me or enough brain power for me to teach Chemistry AND General Science AND Geometry AND prealgebra AND phoncs AND double digit addition etc. well. I just can't.

 

Christine

[Susie in CA]

I feel like grades are a form of communication in a school setting. I don't have use for them.

 

Yes, this is exactly how I look at this. You said it just the way I would have.

 

Susie

[Storm Bay]

Such a timely topic and one that I am currrently wrestling with. During elementary & middle school I just don't give grades. I do give percentages for certain things, and never change them for corrections. I have a minimum of 90 percent average for a pass grade before corrections, and that includes Singapore Math.

 

But what to do about high school? My dd is very messy & sometimes late, but her comprehension is amazing because she really thinks about what she does. She's also 14 and a late bloomer, so is going through being 14 and all kinds of changes. I am not up to date on my marking (have a pile to mark) but she's borderline for A in a few courses last time I checked. I'm a bit nervous about marking everything, because I hate to give grades even though I may need to. I know so many A students who crammed like crazy and then later forgot most of what they learned. So are they really A students? On the other hand, should you reward someone who remembers an enormous amount and demonstrates understanding beyond her years who doodles all over her papers in a way that would cost her grades in ps? Why am I homeschooling in the first place? One of the reasons is that ps was just not a good place for dd. Obviously, she won't be able to doodle on college papers, official tests or any CC courses that she may do when she's 16 or 17. She'll also have to bite the bullet and type her assignments. I could be a stickler for typing assignments the way the ps does (she knows how to type but doesn't want to,) but having grown up before Word Processors & PC's, I also grew up when most high school assignments were handed in hand-written (but had to be legible). As you can see, I eventually learned to type (after I got my first Bachelor degree, I might add,) but have a high rate of typos and rely on Word Processing to allow me multiple corrections (not so much on posts due to time constraints) for things that I need to be done correctly.

 

However, I don't believe in unjustified A's, either, and there is no way I can graduate my dd from high school if she doesn't learn to have good enough output. I plan on having standardized testing & perhaps some CC courses to help in this area, at least for my eldest who tends to test well. But I'm also not graduating her at 15, so does she have to have all that mastered now in order to get A's? Not her understanding or content, but her deadlines & neatness? Sure, most dc her age can do it, but whereas she's behind in this, she's ahead elsewhere. In the words of the page in King Bidgood's in the Bathtub, "Oh, who knows what to do?" (for those of you not familiar with that, in the end it was the page himself who came up with the solution, so I'm sure I'll figure this out sooner or later!)

[Just Me]

This is the reason why I don't give a letter grade. I simply place the average for the class on the 'report card' that my children give their dad and my outside student takes home. We as adults know what these averages represent 'grade-wise', but I feel the average gives a better indication of what is actually going on. An 89 B is different from an 80 B, KWIM? Also, the letters vary from place to place. I have had classes where A was 95-100, 92-100, and 90-100. Letters aren't standard, but numbers are!

[Narrow Gate Academy]

I was quoting someone else. This particular homeschooler meant that she would give the grade for the final mastery which would, in her eyes, be "A" quality work. She doesn't take into account the B level work (or lower) that it took to get her there. So, you make a B the first time you take the chapter test, so you re-do the chapter until you get an A on the test, then give an A as a grade. Or, you don't test until you're confident they will make an A, stretching out the study as long as needed.

 

(Wait. I don't think I was quoting someone else. I WAS quoting someone else. My post doesn't like up with my title anymore.)

 

I think it's possible to grade both their actual work and their final mastery. We're just starting to grade this year, but here are a few thoughts for you. By high school, my plan is to grade the daily work, tests, quizzes, etc. based on their first answers. We'll repeat and correct any material that isn't mastered, but it won't change their grade. At the end of each semester, I'll had a cumulative exam (like finals in college). If they score better on the cumulative exam than they averaged on the rest of their work during the year, then I believe it shows they mastered the material and should receive grade achieved on the exam. If the exam is at the same level or lower, I will average it in with the other scores.

 

I was extremely grateful to my college professors who gave me this same opportunity in college. Because of them, I got A's in economics, calculus B, biology, and a few other courses that would otherwise have been Bs. It wasn't that I didn't study until the final exam. I just didn't get the material the first time around. With the notes, graded materials, and textbooks, at the end of the semester I was able to piece it all together and figure it out. I studied harder for their exams than any others and as a result achieved a better mastery. Since it's mastery that I care about, I'll give the same opportunity to my kids. HTH

[gardening momma]

But what to do about high school? My dd is very messy & sometimes late, but her comprehension is amazing because she really thinks about what she does. She's also 14 and a late bloomer, so is going through being 14 and all kinds of changes. I am not up to date on my marking (have a pile to mark) but she's borderline for A in a few courses last time I checked. I'm a bit nervous about marking everything, because I hate to give grades even though I may need to. I know so many A students who crammed like crazy and then later forgot most of what they learned. So are they really A students? On the other hand, should you reward someone who remembers an enormous amount and demonstrates understanding beyond her years who doodles all over her papers in a way that would cost her grades in ps? Why am I homeschooling in the first place? One of the reasons is that ps was just not a good place for dd. Obviously, she won't be able to doodle on college papers, official tests or any CC courses that she may do when she's 16 or 17. She'll also have to bite the bullet and type her assignments. I could be a stickler for typing assignments the way the ps does (she knows how to type but doesn't want to,) but having grown up before Word Processors & PC's, I also grew up when most high school assignments were handed in hand-written (but had to be legible). As you can see, I eventually learned to type (after I got my first Bachelor degree, I might add,) but have a high rate of typos and rely on Word Processing to allow me multiple corrections (not so much on posts due to time constraints) for things that I need to be done correctly.

 

However, I don't believe in unjustified A's, either, and there is no way I can graduate my dd from high school if she doesn't learn to have good enough output. I plan on having standardized testing & perhaps some CC courses to help in this area, at least for my eldest who tends to test well. But I'm also not graduating her at 15, so does she have to have all that mastered now in order to get A's? Not her understanding or content, but her deadlines & neatness? Sure, most dc her age can do it, but whereas she's behind in this, she's ahead elsewhere. In the words of the page in King Bidgood's in the Bathtub, "Oh, who knows what to do?" (for those of you not familiar with that, in the end it was the page himself who came up with the solution, so I'm sure I'll figure this out sooner or later!)

I would set standards each year or semester, and how well she meets those standards determines her grade. For example, one of your standards for this year would be to handwrite all of her papers, legibly. Her grade would be based on that, as well as other factors, like the content of the paper. Next year you might have her begin to learn to type and require certain papers to be typed. You might not require perfection in her typed papers that year, perhaps even allowing her to edit in pencil before turning in her paper. Perhaps in the next years you'll require better formatting, fewer errors and edited papers must be retyped. Those factors would affect her grade in those years.

[Storm Bay]

I would set standards each year or semester, and how well she meets those standards determines her grade. For example, one of your standards for this year would be to handwrite all of her papers, legibly. Her grade would be based on that, as well as other factors, like the content of the paper. Next year you might have her begin to learn to type and require certain papers to be typed. You might not require perfection in her typed papers that year, perhaps even allowing her to edit in pencil before turning in her paper. Perhaps in the next years you'll require better formatting, fewer errors and edited papers must be retyped. Those factors would affect her grade in those years.

 

 

This is the direction I've been moving in, and I'm grateful to have my ideas expressed by you, so I know it's not just me who might think that way. Thanks!

[Cricket]

I also have my kids redo their work but they don't get credit for the redo. I give them the grade based on their first try through. I want them to redo the mistakes to make sure we go over what they didn't understand but I agree that in college they won't get full credit if it isn't done right the first time. I see nothing wrong with giving a child a B. I'd hate for my kids to think they were straight A students and then hit reality in college.

 

We do the same thing here. My oldest really responds to grades. I grade his math daily. He gets a grade based on the first time but he still has to correct any incorrect answers.

[Nestof3]

I don't grade anything until high school, but in high school, I decide on a system for each course of study and determing how the grade will be calculated.

 

Tests are worth a certain percent of the total grade for the class. Each test score is the sum of the first score plus a small portion for each problem corrected properly the first time without using the book. Since attendance and class participation cannnot count, I add correction effort. This does not dramatically adjust a score, but it adds motivation.

 

Quizzes and "classwork" are a certain percentage. Papers are a certain percentage.

 

All work must be corrected perfectly before it is handed to me for good, but the student doesn't get an A for it. He gets the grade he earned when the test, paper, etc. was given to him.

 

Giving A's just because a child repeatedly corrected papers doesn't give an honest representation of his knowledge. Sure, he may be able to correct problems when shown which five are wrong, but that doesn't mean he has earned an A. I want my boys' transcripts to be an accurate representation.

[skaterbabs]

We don't give grades in the sense of A, B, C, etc. I do score the kids' (CLE) tests & quizzes and I'm VERY strict about what I will accept. If I can't read it, it's automatically wrong. Forget to label? Wrong. Inadvertantly skip a question? Wrong. Didn't follow directions? Wrong.

 

Wacko recently passed a quiz by the skin of his teeth because he made so many silly mistakes. CLE requires 80/100 passing for any given test or quiz, but if one of my kids makes less than a 95, they get extra work in whatever portion they didn't get correct.

 

My MIL team-teaches the boys with me, and we have slightly different philosophies on errors. I believe that if the concepts are understood fully, there should be no errors. If there are errors, I would prefer they be due to a lack of understanding rather than foolishness because we have the resources to present the concepts from as many different angles as it takes for comprehension to be reached. MIL would prefer any mistakes to be foolish mistakes as long as it's clear the material is understood because once the material is mastered, the student can move on to the next thing. I suspect the two ways of looking at it help the boys tremendously because while I grade very strictly, MIL is more inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt; the kids never know which of us will be grading a given assignment, so the temptation to slack off because Grandma is grading isn't there. Grandma just might not be the one grading this time, and while corrections are made to EVERY assignment, only the FIRST grade actually counts.

[Kareni]

I posted a link to this thread on the High School and Self-Education Board where it also generated some discussion. Click here to read the discussion there.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Kari C in SC]

Then there are the kids like my ds. I only gave him grades on what you could actually mark right or wrong like math. By the time he was 17, he had NO interest in school and was pretty much doing the bare minimum. I stressed and gave ultimatums, etc. Then my dh reminded me that he was exactly the same way at 17. No idea of what he wanted to do and hated school. I gave up on most of it besides the basics. He didn't care about history or advanced science, etc. If I had graded him, he would have probably gotten a D+ or C- in those types of classes. I graded his math and his language arts. Well, he is almost 21 and enlisted in the Army. I had to submit a transcript for that just to show he had a diploma. They really didn't care about the grades. He had some A's for math and the rest was a mixed bag. He figured out his path with or without me stressing over the mastery of Biology.

 

ETA: About testing after high school... My ds had to take the ASVAB test for enlistment. For THAT test, he got two books all on his own. Read them over and over, did the practice tests and really studied. He wanted that for himself. NOTHING I tried to push on him in high school had that result. When he knew what he wanted, he went after it.

[justamouse]

 

Certain jobs, the pyramid is much more narrow, like pilots or pharmacists, etc...

 

We have an FDA regulated business. There are no second chances--or at least they cost you hundreds of thousands. Dh came home yesterday and I asked him, what one trait was the worst in workers? He said they don't want to work until they get it right.

 

Now, the chemists and biologists that work in the lab are a different thing. THEY will work it until they get it right. If they don't get it right--well, their mistakes cost $. This is where mastery comes in.

 

Over on the HS side they basically said what I was having trouble defining. My kids sit at the table with me-even my high schooler. I know what she's doing, and where she's messing up. It can be chaotic looking in, but unless she's reading, she's down here. I know what she accomplishes each day-I learned that lesson long ago to know exactly what was going on. The most important part of that is because she is here, next to me and I know what she's doing, I also know where she's getting it wrong, and we slow down, find out what she isn't getting and pinpoint what's being misunderstood. There isn't a loop of do overs. Did I do that? Yes, I did, a few years ago and I knew then that if I made the same mistake again I was going to screw up her HS success.

 

I have to say, this there are no do overs and if you teach to mastery you're doing too many do overs idea is pretty funny. Or that there are some jobs where you don't need precision the first time. My daughter is taking cosmo at our county tech.

 

How many times do you think she's going to have to get someone's hair right?

 

But her classes teach to mastery. Yes, the she gets answers wrong on tests, but still maintains an A. The teacher takes pride in all of the girls -every year so far-passing thier state tests. They also place in country compititions.

 

You know, this is why I homeschooled-so I didn't have to do it like the PS. To just plow through information test and that's it, that's your grade No Child Left Behind, we teach to test. THIS is WHY I homeschool, I wanted something better for them.