Public schools and religion

[stripe]

I don't think it's appropriate to force people to attend ANY parenting seminar as part of a public school that consists of any particular agenda other than encouraging education, and perhaps encouraging child health through proper nutrition, dental care, sufficient sleep, adequate exercise, and the like, as well as informing parents about what's going on and how to get involved to support their students.

 

I wouldn't think it was appropriate to have the beef industry sponsor talks about protein intake, or the vegans to present reasons why all animal products are exploitative, the sugar industry advise that carbohydrates are a vital part of the diet, or the peanut industry discuss why peanuts should be our sole source of calories. I don't think people have time for that sort of thing. The first amendment clearly says that the government should not promote one religion. I honestly don't get the Baptist/Catholic issue here, but I think Tara has every right to be outraged. If a public school wants to have prayers, then perhaps they should contact an interfaith group and have a Baptist/Catholic/Mormon/Hindu/Baha'i/Muslim/Jewish/Wicca/etc prayer circle, followed by an atheistic point of view. I think families should be doing this on their own time.

[NavyWifeandMommy]

wow a lot of deleted posts. Just wanted to say sorry for the bad luck with the PS. With the school being part of a christian college then I could see the part about doing a prayer at the beginning. Everyt funtion we go to with hubby has prayer before what ever it is we are attending.

For the other part I don't think it should be part of the meeting. After reading the guideline and more about what to expect at meetings, maybe a letter of complaint to the principle or whoever in charge. If they continue with religious part, express that you prefer not to partake in the meetings because of that content?

I hope it works out for ya

[CookieMonster]

Soap Box:

 

Separation between church (of *any* kind) and State is a fundamental freedom upon which this Nation was founded. If the meeting was not voluntary and there were State/Federal funds involved, it was inappropriate.

 

Off Soap Box.

 

I disagree. The fundamental freedom you are referring to is the freedom to practice one's religion without government interference; in other words, no State Religion. I think there's a big difference.

 

The "Wall of Separation between Church and State" is a false dichotomy (and not in the Constitution). One cannot check their worldview system at the door. Atheism is a belief. It is the belief that Christianity is wrong. It is the belief that the Bible is not the standard. It is the belief that Islam is wrong and the Koran is not the standard. etc. At the very least, it is the belief that these things are wrong for the person choosing Atheism, even if they are fine with others choosing them. And the atheist is going to live by those beliefs and not let those with differing beliefs infringe upon them.

 

How all this pushing and shoving is supposed to play out I confess I don't know.

Edited October 22, 2009 by CookieMonster

[Audrey]

A school *can* be public AND faith based/whatever...we have them. There are two school boards in our town -- the "Public" board and the "Catholic" board. They run two different groups of schools -- both BOTH are public, meaning anyone can attend either. The Catholic schools are not private schools, there's no tuition/etc - and you don't even have to be Catholic.

 

If you do choose to send your child to one of the schools under the Catholic board (and many do), they're going to be exposed to Catholic beliefs. There is morning prayer and lots of signs of Catholicism around the school.

 

They ARE "public schools" though, not private.

 

Just thought I'd mention it...was thinking about it through this thread..

 

Oh and someone told me that when you own a house (we've never owned a house, just rent) you choose which board you want to pay school taxes to...or something like that. I don't know how all that stuff works.

 

 

Yeah... I have to say, this bothers me to no end. I just cannot get behind how anything CHURCH sponsored should get taypayer funding. But... since that arrangement doesn't exist in my province, I'm not going to out looking for a fight on it.

[Audrey]

Atheism is a belief. It is the belief that Christianity is wrong.

 

 

Sorry, but you are woefully incorrect here. Atheism is NOT a belief that christianity is wrong. I won't argue the whole atheism/belief semantics, but please. Not everything is about persecuting Christians. Neither atheism nor the world revolves around Christianity.

 

Atheism posits that there are no supernatural entities, or gods. People in this world believe in far more gods than just your Christian one. Atheists are simply the ones who don't believe in any of them.

[Tidbits of Learning]

I disagree. The fundamental freedom you are referring to is the freedom to practice one's religion without government interference; in other words, no State Religion. I think there's a big difference.

 

The "Wall of Separation between Church and State" is a false dichotomy. One cannot check their worldview system at the door. Atheism is a belief. It is the belief that Christianity is wrong. It is the belief that the Bible is not the standard. It is the belief that Islam is wrong and the Koran is not the standard. etc. At the very least, it is the belief that these things are wrong for the person choosing Atheism, even if they are fine with others choosing them. And the atheist is going to live by those beliefs and not let those with differing beliefs infringe upon them.

 

How all this pushing and shoving is supposed to play out I confess I don't know.

 

Atheism is not the belief that every other religion is wrong or that christianity is wrong. If you say that you should say that Baptists believe all these other religions are wrong as well or Catholics openly believe other religions are wrong.

Atheism- a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

It simply means you have no belief in any supreme deity. Separation of church and state and the removal of prayer from school was enacted b/c Jewish and Catholic and many other religions were feeling that they were being forced to pray prayers and devotions that did not match up to their beliefs. The supreme court has defended this time and again. There can be no led praying in public school or public school functions. This does not limit one from choosing to read a Bible on campus or from praying to themself on campus. It does prohibit led prayer in public school or public school functions.

Edited October 22, 2009 by OpenMinded

[CookieMonster]

Atheism posits that there are no supernatural entities, or gods. People in this world believe in far more gods than just your Christian one. Atheists are simply the ones who don't believe in any of them.

 

That is what I stated in my paragraph.

[Tidbits of Learning]

I think it read odd then. The way I read it first was that you were saying atheism is the belief that christianity is wrong and islam is wrong....it came across like you were saying atheism was against all other religion. That isn't the definition of atheism.

[fivetails]

A school *can* be public AND faith based/whatever...we have them. There are two school boards in our town -- the "Public" board and the "Catholic" board. They run two different groups of schools -- both BOTH are public, meaning anyone can attend either. The Catholic schools are not private schools, there's no tuition/etc - and you don't even have to be Catholic.

 

If you do choose to send your child to one of the schools under the Catholic board (and many do), they're going to be exposed to Catholic beliefs. There is morning prayer and lots of signs of Catholicism around the school.

 

They ARE "public schools" though, not private.

 

Just thought I'd mention it...was thinking about it through this thread..

 

Oh and someone told me that when you own a house (we've never owned a house, just rent) you choose which board you want to pay school taxes to...or something like that. I don't know how all that stuff works.

 

Yeah... I have to say, this bothers me to no end. I just cannot get behind how anything CHURCH sponsored should get taypayer funding. But... since that arrangement doesn't exist in my province, I'm not going to out looking for a fight on it.

 

It doesn't exist where we came from (PEI) either...but dh grew up in Toronto and went to a Catholic public school, so I gather the same system exists there (or did) ...

 

I guess the Catholic/Public systems are liked by those who *use* them, so... I figure whatever, do your thing. :tongue_smilie:

 

(Nobody forces anyone to go to the Catholic schools, so they can't say anyone is forced to practice any specific religion. It's a choice here.)

[Audrey]

I think it read odd then. The way I read it first was that you were saying atheism is the belief that christianity is wrong and islam is wrong....it came across like you were saying atheism was against all other religion. That isn't the definition of atheism.

 

 

Yeah, that's exactly how I read it.

 

So apologies CookieMomster if I read you wrong.

[Tea Time]

Originally Posted by Tea Time

I think, originally, this was what everyone thought, and it seemed like a reasonable proposition. But it isn't. Children spend massive amounts of time in school, and when there is a taboo against a particular subject, whatever that might be, then that teaches something in and of itself. Why do you think that gays want to have their lifestyle taught in the schools? Because, children are not brainless; if there is a complete void of the subject, then that teaches something loud and clear.

I do not see it as a taboo, just as being neutral. If we allow the teaching of religion in the schools, then what religion or flavor of Christianity shall we pick? How about mine;)? I have some beliefs in inclusive Christianity, Buddhism, Native American Spirituality, and Wiccan/Paganism. Is it OK with you if we have all of the public schools start indoctrinating the kids with my beliefs? Yes, teach them all. If you TEACH ALL BELIEFS EQUALLY, then you are NOT INDOCTRINATING (not yelling, just trying to make it stand out). Allowing only one point of view is indoctrinating. But more importantly than teaching these things, allow people who are those things to bring them into the class and live them. It is who they are!

 

I believe there is plenty of time outside of schools to teach whatever beliefs you want to teach your children. I do believe schools should teach character education such as kindness, respect, consideration, manners, etc. I also believe world religion classes should be taught to all children in public school since religion has had a great impact on history and our current lives. Sounds good. Wish it were happening this way. But the education on religion is often hostile, pointing out all the bad things it has done. Do we do that with science or secular beliefs? Point out the bad things and blame them? Science created thermonuclear weapons of mass destruction, and it was a secular administration that used them, not the Church; it threatens to produce things so devastating that the world will end. I never heard it put this way in PS. See, nothing neutral about thinking, about education. Nothing neutral. Neutrality in education is mindlessness.

 

In regards to gays, I am not so sure they want there life-style taught in the schools. IMHO I think they want tolerance taught which is not a bad idea. I do not think this should be brought up in younger grades such possibily as K-4 though. I do think tolerance should be taught since I have many gay friends who were tormented because of their sexual orientation:( I have also read of many gays being being bullied, beaten, or killed because of who they were. How sad is that?I also firmly believe that one does not choose to be gay; I believe that one is born gay or straight, but that is a topic for another thread;) But you don't get to decide, see, that is the problem. It is being taught in schools. I knew this point would be difficult to follow, but it has nothing to do with my opinion or yours on gays, okay. Religion in schools may have once been thought of as neutral, but it is beyond that now, it is TABOO. People are afraid to talk about it, afraid they will cross some invisible line with serious, very serious results. Atheists are determined that their POV never be considered a "belief" because that would make it fall under the same requirements that limit other people's "beliefs."

 

We seem to be okay with taking one group out of the closet and putting another one in it. Don't believe me? Here is an example (I could give very many others) outside PS, but it works the same way, and it also shows how the taboo instilled in schools spreads to all of the culture amounting to "Separation of Church and Everything." Take a look at the most recent American Girl catalog. A company that was started on the premise of educating girls about this country now has a "holiday season" catalog that does not mention a single religious idea - not Jewish, not Muslim, not American Indian, certainly not Christian. None. (Just a whole lot of consumerism) Who is happy with that? Atheists would have good reason to be. Everyone else has to fill in the void and somehow explain why their religious view is not acceptable polite conversation.

The American Girl example does not make sense to me. That is a private company and they are free to market any kind of doll they want so as it is not illegal. I think it makes great business sense to market to a wider audience;). Also, our country from I understand was founded on the idea of religious freedom and I believe that our founding fathers believed in separation of church and state. Again, I knew this would be hard to follow. Yes, it is a private company. But since so many people are graduating from the PS system which has created a strong climate of TABOO in discussing any religion, they take that into their public life and censor all religion for fear of offending anyone. This indirectly supports only atheists, and make no mistake, they want to keep the status quo. And if you think our founding fathers would be happy that their concept of separating state and religion has been so abused, I think you are quite wrong. They were protecting religion from gov't more so than gov't from religion. A point often glossed over.

 

There is no such thing as a neutral education. No such thing. We should either agree to allow all manner of ideas to be permitted and grow a thicker skin, or we should change the system so that people can be permitted to financially support the system that best fits their POV. Anything else is completely unfair.

Again, what religion shall we coose to be taught in the public schools. How about the Flying Spaghetti Monster religion;)?

I also think that if a predominately Christian community decides they want to support public schools that teach Christianity, then what flavor shall we choose? There are many, many different denominations of Christianity and I am sure that we could not find one that pleased everyone in that community. Also, there are bound to be those who do not subscribe to Christianity. Do we just leave them out in the cold? This is exactly why I believe public funded education should be only one of many options available. It is an unsolvable problem, because right now atheism IS being taught.

 

As to the OP, as long as this educational option is not the only one available to you, you should accept that it provides a bit of diversity that is outside your comfort zone. If it is too diverse for your tastes, choose another option or homeschool. This is a position many people are finding themselves in these days. Shutting down diverse options for everyone is not a decision that supports freedom of thought or choice. Just my 2 cents while I am still allowed to have them.

 

I think we would risk freedom of thought and choice if we allow a particular religion to be taught in public schools since then there would be those who would fell like that they could not express their ideas. I truly believe that religious freedom and separation of church and state preserves our freedoms. Atheism is the absence of religion, and it is being taught. That may not be the intent, but it is happening. I have no problem with atheism or the teaching of atheism as one point of view among many, but hostility toward religion, civil law suits against religious people in schools, making the mind of children the battleground for culture war, and all with our tax money, this I have a problem with.

 

 

I can never figure out why my POV doesn't get more support in this environment (classical education board). The OP is indignant because they are paying for a PS to do things that make them angry and frustrated. Understandable! But MANY people are feeling this way about PS at this point. It seems to be that we want to eat our cake and have it too. You cannot please everyone, so why not crack the whole thing wide open and allow far MORE choices so that, as you said in your other post, everyone can be happy? How about a PS option, and a lot of other options, too? How about individuals being able to support the school of their choice, yes, even Wiccan or Islamic schools or the Spaghetti Monster school (my kids would have wanted that one). Would take people who are truly not afraid of diversity and who are truly tolerant though, I guess. And while we have many people making the claim, they must not really mean it.

 

Stop being so afraid. Let your own beliefs get rocked and assaulted. If they can't withstand, then they might not be part of evolutions great plan. LOL!

 

Another point that should be made here is that the Catholic University puts itself at risk, too. It is highly likely, with this alliance, that it will lose its identity as so many have. Strings are always attached to things. Who will win the tug-o-war of thought? Personally, I don't want to "win," I just want a little space to live out my beliefs. I think that most people feel this way, but some people DO want to win. Every camp has them, people who want to suppress other people's ideas, and IMO, they are the enemy. But we must all wise up to this.

[Tidbits of Learning]

I have went to both public and private school. Public school avoided stomping on anyone's toes. Private Christian school openly tore other people's religions and beliefs apart and told us to go out and convert anyone that didn't believe what we did. Everyone needed to be saved.

I have been on both sides of the coin as a student and I don't think that anyone realizes how much religion takes over school and education that hasn't went to a religious school. You aren't going to find a teacher that can be unbiased about religion. Everyone has a viewpoint.

There isn't diversity and tolerance in introducing religion and prayer into school. If you search the history of separation of church and state and schools, it is very eye opening on how Catholics were forced to pray protestant prayers and devotions. One religion wins out and when prayer was eliminated from school it was because protestant prayer and devotions were being thrust upon Jewish and Catholic believers and they didn't have the option to not pray as a 5 yr old. Would you want your 5 yr old to be forced to say a prayer to Buddha or to Mary or to any Saint or to God if you didn't believe in it?

I want my children to be exposed to religion by their family not by a teacher.

http://www.au.org/resources/brochures/prayer-in-public-schools/

This is very informative and gives some history. I don't think prayer and religion belong in school. They belong in the home.

[Jugglin'5]

I can never figure out why my POV doesn't get more support in this environment (classical education board).

 

.

 

There are many people on this board who feel the same way, but most of us got tired of arguing about it a long time ago. This argument has been rehashed quite frequently on this board. You are not alone. Most of us have just been there and done that. :001_smile:

[Jugglin'5]

I have went to both public and private school. Public school avoided stomping on anyone's toes.

 

 

Nope. I was harassed by many atheist teachers for my religious views in public school. I even gave them up for a while.

[Tidbits of Learning]

Nope. I was harassed by many atheist teachers for my religious views in public school. I even gave them up for a while.

Did your "atheist" teachers tell you they were atheist? How did you know they were atheist?

I am curious as to when and how in a class that your religious views would come to be public knowledge.

[bella_gitana]

Atheism is a belief. It is the belief that Christianity is wrong. It is the belief that the Bible is not the standard. It is the belief that Islam is wrong and the Koran is not the standard. etc. At the very least, it is the belief that these things are wrong for the person choosing Atheism, even if they are fine with others choosing them. And the atheist is going to live by those beliefs and not let those with differing beliefs infringe upon them.

 

I'm sorry, but atheism is not a belief, let alone the belief that any religion is wrong. It is simply not believing in any deity or supernatural beings.

[Erica in PA]

I'm sorry, but atheism is not a belief, let alone the belief that any religion is wrong. It is simply not believing in any deity or supernatural beings.

 

It seems to me that atheism is a belief in this sense... an atheist does not only *not* believe in a god, he/she believes that there is no God. Am I incorrect in that?

[Spy Car]

Nope. I was harassed by many atheist teachers for my religious views in public school. I even gave them up for a while.

 

It's shameful teachers treated you that way. A teacher who harasses a child for their religious views ought to be fired. No excuses.

 

It seems to me that atheism is a belief in this sense... an atheist does not only *not* believe in a god' date=' he/she believes that there is no God. Am I incorrect in that?[/quote']

 

As above, a teacher who attempts to intrude on a child's religious freedom, by either denying God, or by promoting a religion ought to be fired.

 

Bill

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I can never figure out why my POV doesn't get more support in this environment (classical education board). The OP is indignant because they are paying for a PS to do things that make them angry and frustrated. Understandable! But MANY people are feeling this way about PS at this point. It seems to be that we want to eat our cake and have it too. You cannot please everyone, so why not crack the whole thing wide open and allow far MORE choices so that, as you said in your other post, everyone can be happy? How about a PS option, and a lot of other options, too? How about individuals being able to support the school of their choice, yes, even Wiccan or Islamic schools or the Spaghetti Monster school (my kids would have wanted that one). Would take people who are truly not afraid of diversity and who are truly tolerant though, I guess. And while we have many people making the claim, they must not really mean it.

 

Personally, I don't want to "win," I just want a little space to live out my beliefs. I think that most people feel this way, but some people DO want to win. Every camp has them, people who want to suppress other people's ideas, and IMO, they are the enemy. But we must all wise up to this.

 

That would be great if everyone could support their own schools to support their beliefs. However, I do not think that is possible with public schools due to great diversity in beliefs that we have in this country. I contend that there will be people left out in the cold if this happens. I also believe that this is what private schools or homeschooling is for:).

 

I also do not believe that our current public schools espouse atheism. I would be just as incensed if the public schools espoused atheism or any other religious beliefs. I get the impression that some think secularism is the same as atheism and IMHO it is not. I never heard of public teachers preaching that there is no God and IMO they should be fired if they did.

 

I realize that evolution is taught in public schools, but that is appropriate since it is the prevailing scientific thought. I do not see teaching evolution as atheism either. There are many of faith who believe in evolution and many who are atheists who believe in evolution. Evolution itself does not speak for or against God and creation IMHO. I simply see it as teaching science and for those against it, they are free to teach their children otherwise at home. ( I am sorry for digressing;))

 

I also see no problem with a world religion class done as a history class. In regards to bashing of religion in public schools, I do not recall ever hearing the same and I would be incensed if that happened as well. However, I also do not believe that stating historical facts in regards to all religions as necessarily bashing them. I come from a Roman Catholic background and would not see it as bashing if a world religion history course covered the time of the Inquisition and the many who were put to death. So I am not sure what you are referring to as to bashing religion in the schools.

 

Lastly, I think we all do have the space to live out our beliefs even in the context of secular public schools. I think there is plenty of time for religious education outside of schools and to invite religious education into the public schools is too much of a risk IMHO.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

It's shameful teachers treated you that way. A teacher who harasses a child for their religious views ought to be fired. No excuses.

 

 

 

As above, a teacher who attempts to intrude on a child's religious freedom, by either denying God, or by promoting a religion ought to be fired.

 

Bill

:iagree::iagree: You always say it so well Bill;)

[Jugglin'5]

Did your "atheist" teachers tell you they were atheist? How did you know they were atheist?

I am curious as to when and how in a class that your religious views would come to be public knowledge.

 

 

For instance, in seventh grade I was humiliated by my history teacher over, of all things, Blue (Sunday) Laws. She was obviously against them and had the students take sides over the issue. I was the only one who decided to take the affirmative, being a contrarian by nature. Let's just say that she got very personal about it. I had really enjoyed her class and looked up to her before.

 

As far as how did I know she was an atheist - do you mean to tell me that you've never been able to figure out as a student whether your teacher was liberal or conservative, Christian, Jewish, atheist or whatever? My favorite English teacher (10th grade) was very open about her liberalism, and the fact that she was Jewish (though her last name didn't give any clues about that). She was very influential in my life.

 

Nobody seems to think that their own biases are noticeable or problematic. True neutrality in the classroom is extremely rare.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

For instance' date=' in seventh grade I was humiliated by my history teacher over, of all things, Blue (Sunday) Laws. She was obviously against them and had the students take sides over the issue. I was the only one who decided to take the affirmative, being a contrarian by nature. Let's just say that she got very personal about it. I had really enjoyed her class and looked up to her before.

 

As far as how did I know she was an atheist - do you mean to tell me that you've never been able to figure out as a student whether your teacher was liberal or conservative, Christian, Jewish, atheist or whatever? My favorite English teacher (10th grade) was very open about her liberalism, and the fact that she was Jewish (though her last name didn't give any clues about that). She was very influential in my life.

 

Nobody seems to think that their own biases are noticeable or problematic. True neutrality in the classroom is extremely rare.[/quote']

 

:grouphug: IMO that teacher was a bad teacher and should have been reprimanded at the very least.

 

 

I agree that true neutrality is hard to achieve but that does not mean we should not strive for it. Otherwise, I can just envision various teachers preaching their religious beliefs to their captive audience of students who may or may not share their beliefs.

 

I also think that unfortunately, there will always be some bad teachers, but that does not mean the whole system has that particular teacher's agenda so to speak. It means IMO that that teacher should be fired or reprimanded depending upon the situation.

[Tidbits of Learning]

For instance' date=' in seventh grade I was humiliated by my history teacher over, of all things, Blue (Sunday) Laws. She was obviously against them and had the students take sides over the issue. I was the only one who decided to take the affirmative, being a contrarian by nature. Let's just say that she got very personal about it. I had really enjoyed her class and looked up to her before.

 

As far as how did I know she was an atheist - do you mean to tell me that you've never been able to figure out as a student whether your teacher was liberal or conservative, Christian, Jewish, atheist or whatever? My favorite English teacher (10th grade) was very open about her liberalism, and the fact that she was Jewish (though her last name didn't give any clues about that). She was very influential in my life.

 

Nobody seems to think that their own biases are noticeable or problematic. True neutrality in the classroom is extremely rare.[/quote']

 

I mean did she say that she didn't believe in a God or a supreme being. That is the definition of atheism.

I wouldn't label anyone atheist unless they, themselves, used the term to describe themselves.

[lionfamily1999]

Nope. I was harassed by many atheist teachers for my religious views in public school. I even gave them up for a while.

Btdt.

As above' date=' a teacher who attempts to intrude on a child's religious freedom, by either denying God, or by promoting a religion ought to be fired.

 

Bill[/quote']

:iagree:

[Jugglin'5]

I mean did she say that she didn't believe in a God or a supreme being. That is the definition of atheism.

I wouldn't label anyone atheist unless they, themselves, used the term to describe themselves.

 

She did actually tell us that point blank, but we all knew before. Kids can very often read between the lines and put two and two together you know.

 

The sad thing is, the reason that I remember it so well and that it affected me more than other similar tings that happened with other teachers, is that she was not a bad teacher at all. We all craved her approval. She was passionate about history and fascinating. She would have been much more dull and boring had she kept everything plain vanilla. I didn't mind that she was an atheist, I just didn't want to held up fro ridicule in front of my entire class for my Christian convictions.

 

Good teachers are influential. That's part of the reason I homeschool, and don't really buy into the public-schools-are-neutral position.

[msjones]

It's shameful teachers treated you that way. A teacher who harasses a child for their religious views ought to be fired. No excuses.

 

 

 

As above, a teacher who attempts to intrude on a child's religious freedom, by either denying God, or by promoting a religion ought to be fired.

 

Bill

 

Well, that would be a tough call for a principal/school board to make, wouldn't it? Who would get fired? Just how much would a teacher have to say (or not say) before he/she would be fired? What would be the appropriate response from a teacher when a 'religious' topic comes up in class?

 

Maybe that's a different thread. But, I think it's easy to gasp and say, "they ought to be fired!" and another thing to actually develop a practical, effective policy.

 

Complicated stuff, this 'tolerance' and 'freedom of speech'...

[Jugglin'5]

Well, that would be a tough call for a principal/school board to make, wouldn't it? Who would get fired? Just how much would a teacher have to say (or not say) before he/she would be fired? What would be the appropriate response from a teacher when a 'religious' topic comes up in class?

 

Maybe that's a different thread. But, I think it's easy to gasp and say, "they ought to be fired!" and another thing to actually develop a practical, effective policy.

 

Complicated stuff, this 'tolerance' and 'freedom of speech'...

 

Yeah, see, I never even told my parents. I just wasn't the kind of kid to tell much, nor would I have wanted it to become a bigger deal than it already was. I think we probably only hear of 10% of what actually goes on, if that much.

[creekland]

Eh? Where have I done that? I did not stand up and make a scene. I haven't even contacted the school. I simply left, and no one there even knows why I did (if they even noticed that I did). How is that me forcing my beliefs on others? Unless you think me even discussing it here is "forcing: my beliefs?The law is on my side, btw: public schools can't promote religion, and I fail to see how a speaker at a school even telling me how to use the Bible to raise my kids is not promoting religion.

 

Tara

 

Sorry, I should have been more clear here as you are right that you have done nothing at this point to force beliefs on others. What I should have written (or better implied) is that if you get this particular speaker kicked out merely because you disagree with his views - or disagree that a religious speaker should have been there - or whatever, then that would be wrong IMO.

 

If you wish to see if ALL parents can be informed of the agenda and be able to opt out of any that conflict with their views (religious or otherwise) without it negatively affecting their student, then that would be ideal...

 

I was typing and brainstorming my ideal solution without thinking of what the words actually said vs what I thought. Sorry again.

[msjones]

When I was teaching public school, the topics of god, heaven, church, sin, hell, and the like came up fairly routinely.

 

I think every class I taught had at least one little evangelist, who didn't hesitate to mention Jesus or "the blood of the lamb" or "saved through grace" or "you'll go to hell if you do ___________."

 

As the teacher, I had to respond, whether I said something or ignored it. I'm sure every response I gave could have upset someone.

[creekland]

There are many people on this board who feel the same way' date=' but most of us got tired of arguing about it a long time ago. This argument has been rehashed quite frequently on this board. You are not alone. Most of us have just been there and done that. :001_smile:[/quote']

 

That would explain it - thanks. I seldom have time to read long threads... so I've managed to miss those other ones. Otherwise I was a bit puzzled too.

[creekland]

Did your "atheist" teachers tell you they were atheist? How did you know they were atheist?

I am curious as to when and how in a class that your religious views would come to be public knowledge.

 

Many teachers will share with students what their particular beliefs are both politically and religiously. This is not a 'teaching' deal about either (or lengthy), but rather a 'sharing about me' thingy - sort of a get to know each other. They also add that students will not be penalized for not sharing the beliefs. It goes along with where they went to college, any other experience they have and whatever else they care to share. Actually, I can't think of any teacher that doesn't share this info. If they don't actually say it outright, the kids are great at figuring it out by reading between the lines I guess.

 

I've yet to see any teacher 'preach' to a student or force any sort of prayer... There are probably more nests stirred up by politics than religion, but personally, as long as it doesn't affect a grade, I'm ok with it all. My son came home telling me his English teacher is a self-professed Socialist-Marxist Liberal Christian (her exact words). We're not. She's a great teacher... and the thinking/comparing of views has been really good for him.

 

There's a history teacher at school - or at least was until last year when she retired - that is a far FAR right conservative/libertarian atheist and she was one of the most popular teachers in the department. It doesn't matter.

 

What matters is when they 'preach' or grade inappropriately - which I've never seen happen at least at the high school level. I did see it at college... but that's different. Sharing views is awesome in my mind. The more people get to know each other - and see their (hopefully positive) qualities the less intolerance we have.

 

Intelligent people can be on all sides of an issue or value system.

[creekland]

It seems to me that atheism is a belief in this sense... an atheist does not only *not* believe in a god, he/she believes that there is no God. Am I incorrect in that?

 

You're correct. Atheism is treated as a religious belief just like any of the others at our school. It is simply the belief there is no god or supernatural system.

[Spy Car]

Well, that would be a tough call for a principal/school board to make, wouldn't it? Who would get fired? Just how much would a teacher have to say (or not say) before he/she would be fired? What would be the appropriate response from a teacher when a 'religious' topic comes up in class?

 

Maybe that's a different thread. But, I think it's easy to gasp and say, "they ought to be fired!" and another thing to actually develop a practical, effective policy.

 

Complicated stuff, this 'tolerance' and 'freedom of speech'...

 

It would be a tough call (maybe). Or maybe not. I'm not sure how a "religious" topic comes up in class, but I don't think it's up to a teacher to opine on the existence or non-existence of a deity. On matters of "policy" a teacher could try to (as best they could) present various sides of an issue and open it up for discussion (or not). Or they could "punt," if they determine it is not an appropriate topic for discussion.

 

And the teacher should always be mindful of their role as educators, which in a public school includes not infringing on a child's religious freedom (which includes the freedom of conscious for non-believers and the religious alike).

 

Bill

[creekland]

It's shameful teachers treated you that way. A teacher who harasses a child for their religious views ought to be fired. No excuses.

 

 

 

As above, a teacher who attempts to intrude on a child's religious freedom, by either denying God, or by promoting a religion ought to be fired.

 

Bill

 

Hey, there are miracles! You and I agree... :) And I'll restate that I've yet to see this happen at the high school level...

 

There was one sub in the elementary school once...my son's class... who was peeved that a girl didn't stand for the pledge (girl was Jehovah's Witness) AND told the other kids the REASON was she (girl) wasn't old enough yet to know her parents were teaching her incorrectly. As far as I know, she never returned. That appalled many of us (I wasn't teaching in the district at the time or I would have made sure they knew about it - I'm fairly sure they knew. Subs don't disappear otherwise.) Hopefully those incidents are rare and getting more rare.

[creekland]

When I was teaching public school, the topics of god, heaven, church, sin, hell, and the like came up fairly routinely.

 

I think every class I taught had at least one little evangelist, who didn't hesitate to mention Jesus or "the blood of the lamb" or "saved through grace" or "you'll go to hell if you do ___________."

 

As the teacher, I had to respond, whether I said something or ignored it. I'm sure every response I gave could have upset someone.

 

You can tell those that have actually taught in public school... to be fair, there are also those that are adamantly atheist...

 

Fortunately, I've gotten pretty good at diffusing situations - as, I'm sure, has everyone else who's been there any length of time.

[christielee7278]

The university of Catholic, but the school is PUBLIC. The school requires parents to attend monthly meetings. I went to last night's meeting and signed in. I received my program and went to sit down. On my way to my seat I noticed Bible quotes in the program, which was a parenting seminar. When I got to my seat, the leader of the seminar (a local Baptist minister, it turns out) was leading a prayer.

Tara

 

I'm still scratching my head over the Baptist minister leading a prayer in a Catholic university. :001_huh: :lol:

 

Seriously though the whole thing doesn't sound right to me either, especially since your child is in a public school and it was a mandatory parents meeting.

 

I would be interested to see their response to your letter.

[Tea Time]

There are many people on this board who feel the same way' date=' but most of us got tired of arguing about it a long time ago. This argument has been rehashed quite frequently on this board. You are not alone. Most of us have just been there and done that. :001_smile:[/quote']

 

That's good, but I hope everyone doesn't give up. School choice is vital to a healthy republic.

 

I'm sorry, but atheism is not a belief, let alone the belief that any religion is wrong. It is simply not believing in any deity or supernatural beings.

 

Refer to my other post as to real reason this statement has to be endlessly repeated as if it were fact. It is a weak opinion at best.

 

This is how Princeton defines it. Just one example, others could be found in contrast, but the point is that it is "held in the mind as a thought." How about that?

 

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=atheism

 

 

 

Noun

 

• S: (n) atheism, godlessness (the doctrine or belief that there is no God)

• S: (n) atheism (a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods)

Can you teach a child that there is not a god? Can you teach a child that there is a god? If you can do these things, and you can sure try, then the idea of whether or not atheism is a "belief" is MOOT. It is a view, a thought process, a mental concept, an idea, a paradigm, a fear, a hope, a good dream, a bad dream, and it can be systematically indoctrinated just like any other one no matter what you call it. *A rose by any other name...*

 

It's shameful teachers treated you that way. A teacher who harasses a child for their religious views ought to be fired. No excuses.

 

As above, a teacher who attempts to intrude on a child's religious freedom, by either denying God, or by promoting a religion ought to be fired.

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

 

But I fear (because I read a lot) that it is happening all the time - in all directions (by that I mean everyone feels marginalized and hurt at some point) - despite people's efforts to be reasonable. You can hear the stories of indoctrination flow in when the topic brought up. Which is why I can't abide this culture war financed by tax dollars in the schools any longer without objecting. Yes, I know, talking about ending the monopoly of the behemoth of public education is unthinkable, but probably so was taking on the British Empire.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

That's good, but I hope everyone doesn't give up. School choice is vital to a healthy republic.

 

Which is why I can't abide this culture war financed by tax dollars in the schools any longer without objecting. Yes, I know, talking about ending the monopoly of the behemoth of public education is unthinkable, but probably so was taking on the British Empire.

 

I believe in school choice and even school vouchers;) My ds is the recipient of school choice in that he attends a public cyber charter school. I believe in school choice as way to improve education all around, including the public schools. I think a secondary result will be that it is better our country if the result is improved education. I would not want to see religious public charter schools though; I think vouchers would be a more appropriate choice to use for religious schools.

 

I still believe in public education though since not everyone can home school. I also do not see public schools as a culture war. I think the public schools are doing the best they can with a diverse society. I am just hoping to see them improved through school choice;)

[Spy Car]

Hey, there are miracles! You and I agree... :) And I'll restate that I've yet to see this happen at the high school level...

 

 

I can only say I never experienced a teacher crossing the line on religious issues, not ever. Nor did I hear stories of such a thing happening with class-mates.

 

I accept that it could happen, or has happened, but I'm pleased to say it never happened during my years in school.

 

Bill

[Jugglin'5]

I can only say I never experienced a teacher crossing the line on religious issues, not ever. Nor did I hear stories of such a thing happening with class-mates.

 

I accept that it could happen, or has happened, but I'm pleased to say it never happened during my years in school.

 

Bill

 

That really surprises me! :confused:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I can only say I never experienced a teacher crossing the line on religious issues, not ever. Nor did I hear stories of such a thing happening with class-mates.

 

I accept that it could happen, or has happened, but I'm pleased to say it never happened during my years in school.

 

Bill

 

I have to second that.:iagree:

[Spy Car]

That really surprises me! :confused:

 

That is the absolute truth.

 

Bill

[newlifemom]

Wow. I've never had a post deleted before. :lol: Looks like I went to bed at the wrong time!

 

Me too! Not only that, I've been away all day! I feel like I got caught with my hand in the cookie jar. Oh well, it had to happen sooner or later. Sorry, don't have time to follow up with all of these responses. I have to write and edit a bunch of papers.:auto:

[msjones]

It would be a tough call (maybe). Or maybe not. I'm not sure how a "religious" topic comes up in class, but I don't think it's up to a teacher to opine on the existence or non-existence of a deity. On matters of "policy" a teacher could try to (as best they could) present various sides of an issue and open it up for discussion (or not). Or they could "punt," if they determine it is not an appropriate topic for discussion.

 

And the teacher should always be mindful of their role as educators, which in a public school includes not infringing on a child's religious freedom (which includes the freedom of conscious for non-believers and the religious alike).

 

Bill

 

It's one thing to say a teacher should "be mindful" of something (and I agree that they ought to), and another to decide exactly what would call for termination.

 

One parent may be angry that I ignored a certain remark, while another may be upset that I justified that same remark with a reply.

 

I never knew a teacher to "opine" on one side of the religious or another, but, then again, I was never in their classrooms, since I was busy in mine.

[Spy Car]

It's one thing to say a teacher should "be mindful" of something (and I agree that they ought to), and another to decide exactly what would call for termination.

 

One parent may be angry that I ignored a certain remark, while another may be upset that I justified that same remark with a reply.

 

I never knew a teacher to "opine" on one side of the religious or another, but, then again, I was never in their classrooms, since I was busy in mine.

 

Right. I think teachers need to have a sense of "discretion", and I never knew a teacher to "opine" on one side of the religious matters either. I have very high respect for the profession. And (full disclosure) my mother was a career public school teacher, and I'm proud of her.

 

Bill

[asta]

As far as how did I know she was an atheist - do you mean to tell me that you've never been able to figure out as a student whether your teacher was liberal or conservative' date=' Christian, Jewish, atheist or whatever? My favorite English teacher (10th grade) was very open about her liberalism, and the fact that she was Jewish ([b']though her last name didn't give any clues about that[/b]). She was very influential in my life.

 

 

There is ethnic Judaism and practicing Judaism, and while the two may occur in the same person, the latter doesn't presume the former. Nor does the former presume the latter.

 

 

a

[stripe]

There is ethnic Judaism and practicing Judaism, and while the two may occur in the same person, the latter doesn't presume the former. Nor does the former presume the latter.

And then there's my high school math teacher, who would blow a gasket if anyone said the word "God" in class (e.g. "God bless you!" in response to a sneeze) and rant about the separation of church and state, but always was out of school on Jewish holidays. I never figured out if he was actually Jewish or just wanted extra vacation. About half the school was absent on Rosh Hashanah; strangely, though, Yom Kippur seemed less popular. ;)

[Tea Time]

Which is, after all, a parent's job.

I completely agree, filling the void, providing education is a parent's job, so why does tax payer money have to fund it?

 

In our house the conversation goes something like, "Not everyone shares our religious beliefs, so it's best that we only discuss them with people who share them or ask about them because religion is very personal."

 

Wow. Sounds a lot like "don't ask don't tell" to me.

 

Someone elses might look like this (cause some people talk a lot more, I guess), "Not everyone shares our religious beliefs, so do not allow other people to marginalize them or water them down or force you to abandon them; but always be respectful, curious, and open minded in hearing about other's beliefs. As long as they are not promoting evil, listen to them, because listening is a form of caring."

 

So your model should be the standard that everyone uses? Your model should be tax payer funded, while the other model is not valid? Why?

 

I have never understood the idea that the world at large needs to be actively promoting our religion of choice or our kids will suffer. Perhaps one needs to be a member of a minority religion to really get that kids can thrive in their religious beliefs even if they are not widely reinforced in society.

 

Ah, let me rephrase this in language that might make you look at this differently, but most likely will just make you angry. Remember. Religion is part of who a person is. It is part of the essense of their being.

 

"I have never understood the idea that the world at large needs to be actively promoting our sexual orientation or our kids will suffer. Perhaps one needs to be a member of a minority sexual orientation to really get the idea that kids can thrive in their sexual orientation even if they are not widely reinforced in society."

 

Closets are STUFFY for ANYONE.

 

Tara

 

Education is never neutral. And I am not arguing in favor of gay rights, either, per se, that is another topic all together. I could argue that point either way, which is how I know that I am open minded. I'm not fixed in concrete. I am just using it as a point here.

 

I do not really want to pick up this thread if it is dying, but I feel this needs to be said, and I am so tired of the fear mongering of people about religion. We are not on the verge of any theocracy. That is not going to happen. Relax.

 

Catholic education remains some of the best education in the world. People pay small (heck, LARGE) fortunes to get it for their kids. Many do not agree with Catholic doctrine at all, but they put up with volunteer work and chapel and what have you because they think it is worth it. If you do not want the trappings, don't do it, but for goodness sake don't shut it down for everyone else in the process over some misguided and misapplied idea of separation of church and state. JMHO, of course.

[Haiku]

If you do not want the trappings, don't do it,

 

I don't do it. I don't send my child to a Catholic school. I send my kid to a public high school in my city's school district. As such, I have an expectation that religion not be promoted.

 

Tara

[msjones]

I don't do it. I don't send my child to a Catholic school. I send my kid to a public high school in my city's school district. As such, I have an expectation that religion not be promoted.

 

Tara

 

Not saying I don't believe you, I do. But, I've never heard of such a situation -- a public school district partnering with a religious university... What kind of bizarre bedfellow arrangement is that?

 

However, I live in a big, liberal, politically-correctly-oriented city, so maybe I'm just out of the loop.

 

If anyone is still reading this thread: are there schools like this (public school district partnering with a religious university) in your area?