Wow -- I guess this makes me think twice about how I return grocery carts

[SparrowsNest]

In one, the mother left the children inside while she went in the store. In the other, she left them while she went to pick up a child from inside the kindergarten. Note that these were primarily very young children, strapped in their car seats.

 

It doesn't require 110 degrees or hours. It can take seconds at any temperature.

 

 

But again, it is an issue of risk assessment. There is a risk to carrying your child. There is a risk, a quantifiable risk, of a fall killing you and your child. And my strong suspiscion, given that risk for spontaneous explosion of cars isn't quantifiable and falls are, that you are at more risk of a deadly fall at any given moment than you are of a spontaneous car explosion.

[Meliss]

I am sending this article to my DH, who leaves the kids in the car all the time for the run in/run out. And while I trust his judgement, it's the demented, busy body weenie in the next car that I DON'T trust. As a homeschooling family, we would probably be charged with everything under the sun if police or CPS found out. >SIGH< :sad:

 

When I went to the grocery store the other day with my toddler, I loaded the groceries in the car, buckled him in the car, and left the cart beside my car rather than walk away from it. I did this because of potential demented busy body weenies :glare:, as you so aptly put it, that might cause a stink. I've heard about this sort of thing happening too many times recently.

[angela in ohio]

How did it take her 10 minutes just to put money in the kettle?

[GothicGyrl]

 

I think that's what this boils down to, Toni. Let's imagine this would've been posted in a different light ~ "Omigosh, can you believe this lady's reckless behavior?!" And let's further say people started nodding in agreement ~ "Good grief, this woman doesn't even deserve to have kids!" yada yada yada. You know what you would've done? Posted ad nauseam from the other perspective, lamenting parental paranoia and so on and so forth. You'll talk yourself in circles trying to prove your point ~ and all the moreso if you're in the minority.:001_tt1:

Maybe, maybe not. You might find that I actually agree with you ladies on a lot of things, I just see and speak about those things from a different light.

 

Using your example, would I have lamented "parental paranoia" and fought against you from that angle? Probably not. I can say that because I've never left my children alone in the car, at any age..I just cannot do it. So using the OP as the scene and your example--you would have been surprised to find me in agreeance.

 

Otherwise, I've said throughout the thread that she did not deserve the treatment received, I just felt she did not use common sense.

[Gigi]

I don't think they ever said how long it took. But I assume it didn't take that long and instead of waiting and asking around the officer immediately acted.

[Hilary]

How did it take her 10 minutes just to put money in the kettle?

 

I read in another article that she was taking some photos of the girls putting their money in the kettle. I seem to remember that she had picked up some of the girls' friends to donate money at the same time. I think that the girls had been collecting money for a while, and this was their grand moment. It was also sleeting, and her toddler had been asleep even before the mom put her in the car. I wouldn't have taken my toddler out either. I feel really sorry for this family!

[Valerie in Chicago]

This is why I love our tinted windows in the back. Weenie busybodies have to get awfully close to our car to see the kids. Which means I can fly into What The He** Do You Want? mode.

[OnTheBrink]

Good grief. What age is acceptable to leave a child in a car? My dd is 10 and I leave her in the car to run into the post office, pay for gas, that sort of thing. She knows if anyone comes near the car and tries to talk to her she's to lay on the horn and stay on it until I come. But again, I'm talking about quick trips inside somewhere, all less than 10 minutes.

[nutmeg]

When I went to the grocery store the other day with my toddler, I loaded the groceries in the car, buckled him in the car, and left the cart beside my car rather than walk away from it.

 

I did this (toddler and preschooler), and then got chewed out by a busybody for not putting my cart away in the corral. I had secured it so it would not roll, and it was not blocking another parking space. Oh well, sometimes you just can't win!

[GothicGyrl]

Good grief. What age is acceptable to leave a child in a car? My dd is 10 and I leave her in the car to run into the post office, pay for gas, that sort of thing. She knows if anyone comes near the car and tries to talk to her she's to lay on the horn and stay on it until I come. But again, I'm talking about quick trips inside somewhere, all less than 10 minutes.

10 years old is much different than 2. A 10 year old, as you said, CAN and does do those things. A two year old doesn't really know how to reason "if A happens do B". A 10 year old can.

 

I wouldn't say anything about a 10 year old.

 

Now, good for them. Hopefully the cop does get some form of punishment for taking this too far. A fine and be done with it, is all she should have received.

[GreenKitty]

I would not have left my baby in the car PERIOD. Their are laws in dif states about ages being allowed to be left alone. I don't know what theirs is.

[Danestress]

Gosh, call me a weanie busybody. If I see a 2 year old left alone in a car, I am waiting around. And if no one shows up, I'm asking around. Then if no one shows up, I am calling the police. If someone shows up, I'm leaving - I have no desire to report someone for running into BlockBusters to drop off a video. But I probably am going to stand around until I make sure a parent is going to show up.

 

Not long ago, a woman was in the news having left three kids in a car while she made a quick trip into a convenience store. For whatever reason, the car caught fire. I believe all the children were rescued. I tried to find the article, but couldn't find it, and found these instead.

 

http://www.kidsandcars.org/fire.htm

 

I can imagine doing what the woman in this case (the Chicago case) did. I don't think it's that big of a deal. She could see the car the whole time. But I think the officer was fine to check it out (not fine to arrest her once he got the details) and I think someone checking out a child left alone in a car is fine. I think that's a GOOD person. I would never characterize that as "weanie busybody." Once they find out that you are actually right there, they they can leave, having satisfied themselves of the child's safety.

 

But I would never see a two year old (or four year old) alone in a car and just ignore it. I would definitely sort of sit in my car a few minutes, watching to make sure someone is coming right out. You might not even know I was there, but I would be. And if you didn't show up in a couple, I probably would go looking for you. And eventually I would probably call the police. Maybe I will change my name to Weanie Busybody, lol. I've been wanting a new one!

[WagsWife]

nt.

[j.griff]

Good grief. What age is acceptable to leave a child in a car? My dd is 10 and I leave her in the car to run into the post office, pay for gas, that sort of thing. She knows if anyone comes near the car and tries to talk to her she's to lay on the horn and stay on it until I come. But again, I'm talking about quick trips inside somewhere, all less than 10 minutes.

 

Here in CA, dc have to have someone 13yo or older with them if they are in a vehicle. That's a safety precaution for many many reasons.

[Frontier Mom]

I mean, what does that do to a child to see their Mom handcuffed and put into a police car after raising money to give? I think they owe them an apology, although they will probably never get one.

[j.griff]

Yeh- a person who comes along and sees a small child alone in a car has no idea how long the child has already been in the vehicle alone. The police officer didn't know how long she'd been in the car alone, he probably could have watched the security video to find out though. Lots of times people think that it'll just take a minute to do something, and end up taking longer. It doesn't take very long for small children to get too hot or too cold when left in a locked vehicle, and I think that police should take each case seriously- and if they have no way of knowing how long a child was left alone then they have every right to prosecute. If you are going to choose to leave a child in a car alone, then you are choosing to possibly pay the consequences, IMO.

[Nestof3]

What I am thinking is, where do you draw the line? Things we do every day -- things that are commonly acceptable can result in detriment to someone.

 

Am I the only one here that takes a shower without another adult being present? I come up with ways to keep my children safe while doing so, but really, something still could happen.

 

I read really odd cases in the news -- I just read an article the other day where a boy told his friends to bury him in sand -- head first. People were bashing the parents for not teaching the children that you shouldn't bury a child headfirst -- that we should discuss the importance of breathing.

 

Good grief. Am I the only other mom that hadn't given that warning before?

 

With so much news at our fingertips, we are going to hear all sorts of things. I just read that a woman stayed on a toilet for 2 years! You can search the internet and come up with all sorts of things.

 

But none of the articles posted resembled this lady's scenario. She was standing right there! And, if she had been in the car and someone hijacked her entire family, then there wouldn't be anyone to blame, but since she was a few yards away from the car, it would have been her fault the car was hijacked.

 

I also don't understand how someone can hijack a locked car that isn't running.

 

If you have ever walked to the mailbox on your street without taking your children with you, you have been negligent according to some voices on this board. I think some people truly just enjoy arguing. I think some people just like tearing apart people in these sorts of news stories.

 

But why don't we all sit down tonight and write down all the times in our lives when something COULD have happened to our children because we did not have a constant eye on them and/or because they were not outside of one foot away from us.

[Scarlett]

Am I the only one here that takes a shower without another adult being present? I come up with ways to keep my children safe while doing so, but really, something still could happen.

 

:iagree:

 

Your comment above reminded me about a friend of mine who took her baby into the shower with her....strapped in a seat of somekind (I never could quite picture what she talking about) because she was too afraid to leave baby 'alone' while she showered.

[j.griff]

If you have ever walked to the mailbox on your street without taking your children with you, you have been negligent according to some voices on this board. I think some people truly just enjoy arguing. I think some people just like tearing apart people in these sorts of news stories.

 

But why don't we all sit down tonight and write down all the times in our lives when something COULD have happened to our children because we did not have a constant eye on them and/or because they were not outside of one foot away from us.

 

I'm not sure if you are directly replying to my post intentionally and therefore addressing me in some manner or not, but I'll reply as though you have and are. :)

I have an older child- she has taken babysitter training classes and knows what to do in an emergency. So many of the scenarios you discuss are N/A to us.

*I* am capable of leaving my Littles in the care of my oldest while checking the mail, running small errands, etc. *I* am legally capable of leaving all of my DC in a locked car for a reasonable amount of time. However, I am aware of our municipal code which requires that my school aged DC to be in my presence if they are in public during regular school hours- so I would not leave them in a vehicle in public alone during school hours because I don't want to deal with the possible consequences.

IF there is a law that specifies the amount of time a child can be left in a vehicle, and that law is "broken" then there are consequences to pay. Period.

It's a law. That does not mean that *I* personally agree with that law, but I am expected to abide by it and "igorance of the law" is no excuse for anyone.

If there is a law with a specified age required for children to be left in a vehicle, and that law is broken, there are consequences.

 

IMO, leaving a child in a public place in a vehicle is a totally different can of worms than leaving a child in their room while you take a shower, use the toilet, etc. Your home is not a public place. And yes, things still Can happen in your home, and yes you could be charged with neglect IF something went terribly wrong while you were occupied. I have a DF who's young son went out of their home (they lived on base in a US territory at the time) while she was still asleep. He had gotten up and decided to take a stroll. How was she to know he was awake? The front door was not close to the master bedroom, so she didn't hear it open. She did hear an MP officer banging on her door though, and he did mention the possibility of charges being pressed if something like that happened again.

The same DS later set their home on fire, and again the MP officer mentioned charges of neglect- why was DS alone in the living room long enough to start a fire? :rolleyes:

While I may not agree with those laws, I am aware of them and try my best to make sure that I am "covered" legally speaking.

[Kelli in TN]

I have been watching this thread since it started. I have hesitated to respond because, after taking the time to open and read all the responses, I was discouraged by the inflammatory tone of the thread.

 

I have mulled over my feelings on this subject since the whole conversation started.

 

I am greatly relieved that the charges have been dropped. I do believe the parents would not be out of line in pursuing a lawsuit against the over-zealous officer and the police dept. as whole. The fact that two children were abandoned at Wal-Mart would be enough, in my opinion, to warrant the firing of any officers on the scene. They acted no more responsibly than the mother did.

 

I am one of those "over protective" mothers. I did not leave my babies, toddlers, preschool age, elementary school age children alone in the car. I must have at least a 12 or 13 year old in the car. I have just recently started leaving my 12 year old in the car alone, but not with siblings. And not to go into a store like Wal-Mart. I will leave him to run into the Credit Union office (a very quick trip), or to run into a small store with large windows, like a Dollar General.

 

I do believe that if one is so afraid of falling that they must leave their baby alone in a vehicle, it is probably a sign that this is the wrong day for that errand. There is nothing so important as protecting those little ones. You cannot possibly eliminate every risk, but you can minimize risks.

 

The Salvation Army kettles are out all season long. She really could have made a better choice.

 

I always tried to ask myself "Is this the best?" not "Is this good enough?" or "Is this safe enough?". I always want to know that I am making the absolute best choice in the face of my circumstances. I do not believe her decision was the best and it is not the decision I would have made.

 

I have been known to stay around and watch over the children of strangers, from a safe distance, when I felt the parents were being negligent. I would not accost someone for leaving their child in harm's way, I am much too timid for that. But I will watch and wait for them to return before I go on about my business. I have done this at times to the point of inconveniencing my family.

 

I do believe the officer had every right to confront her. I think the officer would not have been out of line in giving her a warning or citation of some sort if the law provided for that. The officer did step over the line in arresting her, the officer did act negligently in abandoning her children at Wal-Mart. But there is blame enough here to go around.

 

My stance has been questioned, and sometime openly criticized nearly to the point of being ridiculed, by some on this board in the past, for being so very protective of my children, so perhaps you should take my opinion with a grain of salt. But I do not regret for one second every time I chose the harder way to do things to keep my children under my protection every minute to the best of my abilities.

[Gigi]

Gosh, call me a weanie busybody. If I see a 2 year old left alone in a car, I am waiting around. And if no one shows up, I'm asking around. Then if no one shows up, I am calling the police. If someone shows up, I'm leaving - I have no desire to report someone for running into BlockBusters to drop off a video. But I probably am going to stand around until I make sure a parent is going to show up.

 

 

 

I agree with this. I would do the same thing. I think the officer should have asked around and if she did she would have quickly found the mom. I think that is acceptable.

 

In this case once the mother approached instead of yelling at her the officer could have explained she was concerned. The mother would then point to where she was (30 ft) still outside, explained the situation, and then been left alone.

[Gigi]

In Illinois it is 10 minutes. A few years earlier in Illinois a lady was arrested for going inside to pay for gas on a wintery day and not taking all of her kids inside with her. I believe those charges were dropped also.

[GothicGyrl]

If you have ever walked to the mailbox on your street without taking your children with you, you have been negligent according to some voices on this board. I think some people truly just enjoy arguing. I think some people just like tearing apart people in these sorts of news stories.

 

Jgriff--She's speaking to me. Her and another person are speaking about me because they think my "tone" is bad. This is the same thing said on the old board whenever I or anyone else challenges their thinking-- "we cause problems", or "we like to argue" or the tone of the thread is "inflammatory" because there are some who disagree and have discussed why. It's old, but, no--she's talking abuout me.

 

In any case, the proof of this is Joanne's posts have been totally overlooked--poor thing. She's said some good stuff and her posts have been ignored. And Kelli--I said the same things she did, I just didn't say it as nice as she did.

 

So its me not you. ;) and I flung you some rep because of these nasty comments. Ok, I tried to fling you some rep because of the nasty comments and it wouldn't let me--said I gotta spread more around before I spread to you again. Le Sigh.

[Scarlett]

I don't know what the law is in AR. I remember once though when I was still working and before ds was born, there was a big case locally about a woman who had an infant and an 18 month old and she left them in her car while she dashed in a convenience store to get a coke or something. I dont' remember all the details. But anyway, her car was carjacked. The carjacker immediately (like a few blocks away) realized he had BABIES in the back of this car and he pulled over at a store, jumped out and ran away. Oh, my. You should have heard the judgmental tirades against this poor young mother.

 

For the record, I have only one child and still and yet there have been times it has been impossible/highly impractical to get him out of his car seat for a 30 second errand into a store. Drycleaners/convenience store where I park right by the front door...blockbusters....I can't think of any more, but I know I've 'left' him in the car at times. And if I came back out to see a woman waiting to be sure the baby had not been abandoned...hey I"m fine with that. Smile, say, 'I was right there'. and go on my way. I would do the same thing. That police officer in IL just crossed the line. Ridiculous. Totally ridiculous.

[Danestress]

What I am thinking is, where do you draw the line? Things we do every day -- things that are commonly acceptable can result in detriment to someone.

 

 

 

I think this has been rehashed ad nauseum, and we all understand that different people have different ideas of what risk is acceptable.

 

I was merely commenting that I am proudly part of the "weanie busy-body" contingent, if by that you mean "hangs around cars where people have left toddlers unattended, just to make sure that someone is going to come back in a reasonable time." We've had a number of deaths in cars here recently - when parents didn't intend to come back in a minute or just forgot the child was there. I just need to know that the parent of that child is sensible, and I am staying until I know.

[SparrowsNest]

I loaded the groceries in the car, buckled him in the car, and left the cart beside my car rather than walk away from it. I did this because of potential demented busy body weenies

One board I frequent had an enormous, huge, in-your-face, made-enemies-of-former-friends blow-up over people who leave their shopping carts in the lot without returning them to the cart bins.

 

You'll tick people off if you leave your child in the car while you return the cart, and you'll tick others off for not doing so.

 

I loaded the groceries in the car, buckled him in the car, and left the cart beside my car rather than walk away from it. I did this because of potential demented busy body weenies

 

 

Also, I don't think it has to be an us vs. them thing. I have waited in my car beside a car where a baby was unattended. I looked at the clock, decided to wait 10 minutes before calling the police, kept my eye on the baby, and was happy to drive away when the Mom came out of the store in less then 3 minutes. On the other hand, I have called the police when I found a toddler alone walking on a sidewalk. The child couldn't talk and it wasn't clear what house they 'belonged' at. So I stayed with the baby and call the police. Before the police got there, the Mom came out.

 

So while I have argued that it is not unreasonable to leave a child in a locked car for that quick pay-for-gas-type errand, I am also cautious when I see people doing it, because some people don't return in an appropriate amount of time. And that is totally inexcusable.

 

It seems to me that there's a lot of area between an alarmist, mommier-than-thou "Oh I would NEVER NEVER NEVER take my eyes off my baby for ONE SECOND IN THE CAR!" and a "Leave 'em as long as you want, I don't care" attitude.

[Kelli in TN]

One board I frequent had an enormous, huge, in-your-face, made-enemies-of-former-friends blow-up over people who leave their shopping carts in the lot without returning them to the cart bins.

 

You'll tick people off if you leave your child in the car while you return the cart, and you'll tick others off for not doing so.

 

Do we make things harder than they need to be? Granted I am out of the baby stage, but I have been there six times. I always just unloaded my grocery cart with the baby still in the seat and one hand on the baby. Then the cart, the baby and other assorted little people all went to the cart bin where we left the cart. I slung the baby on my shoulder or hip (depending on whether it was a wee shoulder babe or big strappin' hip baby), lined up the assorted kids and made them all hold hands or hang onto some part of my anatomy, and returned to the van. Simple.

 

We DID sort of look like a parade minus the balloons and clowns, though.:biggrinjester:

[j.griff]

Kelli,

I think that every person has to do what works for them. That's great, that you were able to do that with your DC. Some of us have runners though, and it would be a horrible risk to leave them outside a vehicle in a busy parking lot while we load groceries. :D

[Scarlett]

I can tell you right now, I would never begrude any woman or man with one child, much less 6!!!! who left a cart in the lot. In fact, if I were walking by you, I would stop and offer to take your cart for you.

[melissel]

I am greatly relieved that the charges have been dropped. I do believe the parents would not be out of line in pursuing a lawsuit against the over-zealous officer and the police dept. as whole. The fact that two children were abandoned at Wal-Mart would be enough, in my opinion, to warrant the firing of any officers on the scene. They acted no more responsibly than the mother did.

 

<<snip>>

 

I do believe that if one is so afraid of falling that they must leave their baby alone in a vehicle, it is probably a sign that this is the wrong day for that errand. There is nothing so important as protecting those little ones. You cannot possibly eliminate every risk, but you can minimize risks.

 

The Salvation Army kettles are out all season long. She really could have made a better choice.

 

<<snip>>

 

I do believe the officer had every right to confront her. I think the officer would not have been out of line in giving her a warning or citation of some sort if the law provided for that. The officer did step over the line in arresting her, the officer did act negligently in abandoning her children at Wal-Mart. But there is blame enough here to go around.

 

ITA with all of this. IMO, 30 feet away from the car is pretty far away, particularly when you consider she had her back turned long enough to take pictures and shepherd several children into dropping money into the bucket. Lots can happen in 10 minutes. Highly unlikely, yes, but still possible.

 

I also agree about the parking in a fire lane. That's a safety precaution that's there for a reason. Wal-Mart parking lots, at least around here, are dangerous enough, with people walking and kids running and people looking for spaces and not where they're driving and cars trying to get in first every which way. Illegally parked cars make it more dangerous for everyone. And I'm not referring to people picking up or dropping off their elderly or infirm family members--I'm referring to people parking for 10 minutes at a time for errands that they decide are more important than everyone else's and that could be better left for another day.

[Kelli in TN]

Kelli,

I think that every person has to do what works for them. That's great, that you were able to do that with your DC. Some of us have runners though, and it would be a horrible risk to leave them outside a vehicle in a busy parking lot while we load groceries. :D

 

 

I don't know why I want to clarify this, but, oh, did I ever have some runners!!!

 

Oh. My. Goodness. We had one that would sneak out of the house and wander away. We had to put deadbolt locks on EVERY door and lock ourselves in the house just so I could go to the bathroom without losing this kid. How I got him to 8 years old still alive is a mystery to me!

 

You have to get a mental picture on what those years were like for me. I think you are picturing a peaceful, serene mom with her sweet little angels all lined up in a row, marching across the parking lot like a duck and ducklings.

 

NO! Not even close.

 

More like this "Hey, where do you think you are going? Robby, grab your sister, where's Gabriel, stop that, stop that, STOP that, GET OVER HERE, I said hold onto my hand, don't you even think about doing that, okay that's it, when we get home you are confined to your room, why do I do this to myself?"

 

I tried to shop on weekends or send my husband. They were challenging years. Looking back and reflecting on those years....I feel...very.....very....tired.

[melissel]

You'll tick people off if you leave your child in the car while you return the cart, and you'll tick others off for not doing so.

 

I don't leave the kids in the car to put the cart back unless I'm parked a step or two away. Who on earth cares whether you leave your cart in the parking lot? People are PAID to collect those carts and put them away. It's their job. My job is to protect my kids at all costs.

 

(Sorry, my ire is not directed at you. My mind is simply blown that people even care whether someone with kids in tow would return their cart or not!)

[Kelli in TN]

I can tell you right now, I would never begrude any woman or man with one child, much less 6!!!! who left a cart in the lot. In fact, if I were walking by you, I would stop and offer to take your cart for you.

 

 

People did do that and I always appreciated it. I try do the same for others now that I am on the other side of that!

 

I don't begrudge anybody leaving their cart either. I just never felt good about doing it myself.

[SparrowsNest]

Then the cart, the baby and other assorted little people all went to the cart bin where we left the cart. I slung the baby on my shoulder or hip (depending on whether it was a wee shoulder babe or big strappin' hip baby), lined up the assorted kids and made them all hold hands or hang onto some part of my anatomy, and returned to the van. Simple.

 

Kelli, I am not saying this to be argumentative, but in my opinion (and this isn't hypothetical -- I have six children, too) -- walking around a parking lot is more dangerous than sitting strapped in a carseat. Since 1994, 500 children have been killed in backover accidents. Most of these in their own driveway, but of course parking lots carry that risk as well. How many children have been killed in carjackings in that time? By cars spontaneously exploding?

 

I choose, purposefully, to minimize the amount of time my children spend in parking lots. I have 2 hands and five children. When we get to the car, they get in and buckle up. I lock the car and return the cart. However, I also make it a habit to park near a cart bin thing. I try to minimize risks, but hereagain there is no way to eliminate risk completely. This is what I do because it's what I am most comfortable with. You might be more comfortable taking yours with you and that is fine, too. All the risks we are talking about are low, but when you spread them over a large population like ours in the US, you will find isolated incidents of them occuring. It's sad, but you cannot eliminate these risks. While googling, I ran across a story of a woman whose child was shot during a carjacking while she was putting the child in his carseat. There is no way to eliminate all risk to yourself and your sweet babies. Sad, but true.

[melissel]

More like this "Hey, where do you think you are going? Robby, grab your sister, where's Gabriel, stop that, stop that, STOP that, GET OVER HERE, I said hold onto my hand, don't you even think about doing that, okay that's it, when we get home you are confined to your room, why do I do this to myself?"

 

ROFL! I have two and it's like that these days. I can't even imagine doing it with SIX!!!

[SparrowsNest]

I can tell you right now, I would never begrude any woman or man with one child, much less 6!!!! who left a cart in the lot. In fact, if I were walking by you, I would stop and offer to take your cart for you.

 

 

You wouldn't believe how angry and ugly this discussion got! The "return the cart or else you are a bad person" contingent cited the damage that could be done to their cars if the cart ran into them/a wind blew them, people got in accidents because of errant carts, etc. Of course the other side was "my children are more important than your car" and they were accused of being helicopter moms, etc.

 

Anyway, it was a real eye-opener. Sometimes though I think people, especially in Internetland, just like to fight! LOL

[Kelli in TN]

Kelli, I am not saying this to be argumentative, but in my opinion (and this isn't hypothetical -- I have six children, too) -- walking around a parking lot is more dangerous than sitting strapped in a carseat. .

 

Since you addressed me personally I will just say this, I am not trying to be judgemental or inflammatory. I handled it the way I handled it when mine were young. You handle it the way you see best. It'll all be okay!

 

Unless someone asks me something specifically, I think I will leave this conversation alone now. It is an emotionally charged issue and I should be making supper right now anyway.

[GothicGyrl]

I honestly do not care if you don't return your cart to the corrale, but I do care if you leave the cart parked in the middle of a parking space and not up in between two parking spaces. You won't believe(maybe you might) how many parking spaces I've had to pass up---even in my tiny car-- because one person left a cart right in the middle of the space, and then another did and then another did and so on.

 

I so do not care whether you return it or not, just put it somewhere that doesn't block a space, that's all. Honestly. And I could say to those idiots who claim their car is more important than a kid--well, nevermind--it isn't nice.

[Scarlett]

Anyway, it was a real eye-opener. Sometimes though I think people, especially in Internetland, just like to fight! LOL

:iagree:

[Scarlett]

I honestly do not care if you don't return your cart to the corrale, but I do care if you leave the cart parked in the middle of a parking space and not up in between two parking spaces.

 

See here is where, when you kid gets to be 8, you have him hop out and move the cart. ;) Actually, I'm not sure I"ve ever done that, but I'm thinking about it.

[GothicGyrl]

See here is where, when you kid gets to be 8, you have him hop out and move the cart. ;) Actually, I'm not sure I"ve ever done that, but I'm thinking about it.

Oh I have done that, but mine are 12 and 16 ;) I've done it when she was 8. It's just a pain because I don't try to take the closest space, I just want to park. And I have to go even farther away now because someone just couldn't be bothered to not block parking spaces.

 

And this happens a lot at my walmart.

[SparrowsNest]

Since you addressed me personally I will just say this, I am not trying to be judgemental or inflammatory. I handled it the way I handled it when mine were young. You handle it the way you see best. It'll all be okay!

 

 

Yep. ;) I knew you weren't trying to be judgmental, and I hope my tone was clear as well (nonjudgmental LOL). I just think we all think through these very small risks and reasonable people can come to different conclusions. It's subjective, and some of it is emotionally-driven and fear-based, and it can't be argued anyway.

[j.griff]

I am ROFLOL. Thank you for clarifying. I guess I am just VERY lazy, LOL. I would rather tick someone off and leave a cart in a parking space (but actually, I usually try to park next to the end of a row or next to a corral so that I know I'll be able to open our doors without worrying about banging someone else's car- people park way too close to our big old truck) than deal with all of that. Maybe I am just already burnt out, but I always seek the easiest way to do things. Maybe I'm just not a wonderful human being, LOL, but my priority is being as safe as possible and doing things as easily as possible. :o

I'm not picking on you either Kelli, just talking out loud, LOL. But for *me*, it's much safer to fasten those beasties into their seats first, than try to safely navigate them through a parking lot one more time. My two youngest (4 and 2) just LOVE to suddenly chase sea gulls and pigeons, LOL, among other manied and varied random pursuits.

We were at a park on Tuesday, and while we were headed back toward our truck, dd had rambled ahead slightly (I wasn't very concerned in this setting at the time, it wasn't heavily used, not a lot of vehicles, etc.) to put something down and then she came trotting back to where we were, but instead of sticking to the edge of the row she went diagonally across the lot just as another huge vehicle came through. The driver of that vehicle did NOT even slow down. They just turned the wheel to drive around her, but too fast for driving in a parking lot at all, IMO, let alone with an unpredictable 4yo trotting along. :mad: It was "my" fault though, because I should have enforced our parking lot rules even when there were no other vehicles, I was not being consistent, and DD ended up being put in danger due to my negligence.

 

For me, at this time in my life, my DC and Other People are both too unpredictable to add any extra amount of "risk".

[KarenNC]

JuJube, please note that the examples I gave were *not* "spontaneously exploding cars", they were instances where very young children (under the age of 5) left alone got out of their car seats and found a lighter , a car cigarette lighter, matches, etc (IIRC from other coverage, in the Conover case, it was a disposable lighter left by a previous passenger, no one in the family smoked and the mother didn't know the lighter was in the car) and played with them, thereby injuring or killing themselves and/or younger siblings. Others were playing with the power windows, accidentally setting the car in motion, etc. My point was that, contrary to a statement by a previous poster, it is *not* only "110 degrees or leaving them for hours" that endangers children.

 

When my daughter was young, I either parked next to the cart return (even if it was at the far end of the lot) or parked as close as possible then took her with me to return the cart then walked back. I also like to do that so that neither I nor my daughter are likely to hit another car when we open the door <g>. Yes, I only have one, so I can't speak to taking 6 at a time. If I pulled up to a pump to get gas with her in the car and the pay at the pump feature was not available, I either got back in the car and went to another station or I took her inside with me to pay (I still do so and she's 7).

 

I *do* have a problem with folks who leave their carts in the middle of the lot unsecured, because I think it is dangerous and inconsiderate in general (and I do offer to take someone's cart back for them if I am passing when they unload, whether they have kids or not). I take issue primarily, however, with those who choose to use the *handicapped* spaces as a cart return. I end up moving carts from handicapped spaces at least once or twice a week. Perhaps some of these were ones that were left in other areas that rolled, but I have literally watched people push their cart three spaces to deliberately put the cart in the handicapped spot *when the cart return was the exact same distance from the person's car as the handicapped space*.

[Nestof3]

I park far away from others' cars because I don't want anyone slamming their doors into my brand new Honda Odyssey, and I don't want a cart slamming into it. I also don't mind the walk -- I have never been one to drive around looking for a closer spot.

 

I return my cart to the cart return -- while my kids are buckled in their seats. I will continue to do this regardless of any news I read. I am not putting them at any risk greater than the risk we all take on when we go to a store together or sit in a van together.

 

My boys are buckled in my van while I do this. They do not climb out of their seats. We don't have lighters in the van. No one rides in our van who smokes. We don't even have any friends who smoke (now there's child endangerment!). They have books, activity books and audio books to do in the van. My boys have been trained to buckle immediately upon entering the van and not to unbuckle and get out until the van has come to a complete stop and I remove the keys.

 

I will drop movies in the drop slot and return library materials in the drop slot while my boys are buckled in the van. When I buckle my boys up and realize I've left a coupon in the house, I leave them in the van to get the coupon. SHOCKING isn't it? :001_rolleyes: I'm sure all you other fabulous moms would unbuckle the crew to go fetch the coupon.

 

I have never gone in a store when my boys were left in the van. I hold their hands when we walk through a parking lot. I do not let them ride bikes in the street unless an adult is watching. I do not let them play in the front yard. They are not allowed to roam around the neighborhood. I do not let them wander around a store by themselves. I would not send them to a bus stop and hours later hope they return. I've never left my children at a daycare facility.

 

These are my parameters. Yours may be different. So what!

[j.griff]

Kelli,

I just read your post below, and just wanted to say that I don't want you to feel obligated to reply to my post :)

and also that I'm not trying to debate anything here, I was just making some personal observations about myself, and don't expect other people to come to the same conclusions that I have.

[SparrowsNest]

JuJube, please note that the examples I gave were *not* "spontaneously exploding cars", they were instances where very young children (under the age of 5) left alone got out of their car seats and found a lighter , a car cigarette lighter, matches, etc (IIRC from other coverage, in the Conover case, it was a disposable lighter left by a previous passenger, no one in the family smoked and the mother didn't know the lighter was in the car) and played with them, thereby injuring or killing themselves and/or younger siblings. Others were playing with the power windows, accidentally setting the car in motion, etc. My point was that, contrary to a statement by a previous poster, it is *not* only "110 degrees or leaving them for hours" that endangers children.

 

 

Sorry I didn't read more carefully. I stand corrected.

 

But I still think the scenario of "passenger leaves unnoticed lighter which is found by 3 year old and lit and starts fire" is probably about as rare as a spontaneous explosion caused by, say, someone having a small gas leak and a careless smoker throwing a lit butt on the groud nearby. Freak things can happen anywhere. If the mother slipped while carrying the baby and the baby fell and died, that is a statistical possibility which would have not happened if the mother had run in and left the baby in the car, kwim?

 

This is an interesting table which I think puts some perspective on the risks we're talking about. link

 

Accidental Death Dangers for Young Children (Age 1 to 7):

A discussion with some parents led me to look into this, using the CDC's invaluable WISQARS application. I looked at accidental death dangers for young children, age 1 to 7, over the span 2001 to 2005; do not assume that this extrapolates well to older children, but run your own queries instead. Here are the results: Cause of accidental deathRate per 100,000 children age 1 to 7Drowning2.0Car accident, child passenger in car1.3 to 2.2Hit by car while walking1.3Fire (not including house fire)1.2House fire1.1Suffocation0.6Fall0.2Bicycle0.1Poison0.1"Unintentional struck by or against"0.1Firearm0.1

If you want to figure out the total numbers per year, multiply each number by 250 (since there are roughly 25 million children age 1 to 7 in the country).

 

1.3 times 250 is 325.

 

From this site, I found per-year rates of accidental in-and-around car deaths (not driving accidents)...

http://www.usa.safekids.org/tier3_cd_2c.cfm?content_item_id=25251&folder_id=540

 

78 deaths total (i.e., far less than the number of pedestrian children hit by cars)

 

34% from hyperthermia

27% backed over

13% children put car in gear

17% other

and

9% trunk entrapment

 

So the 'other' would cover spontaneous explosions and such. ;) That would be 13% of 78 or... scratch scratch... figure figure... about 10. 10 children killed from 'other' car-related accidents, and about 300 children pedestrians killed.

 

I'm not trying to be a priss, I really do think these types of analyses are interesting. It does look to me like, all things being equal, it may be safer to be in a child in the car than a child walking amongst moving cars, but that's only if my math is good LOL Of course this doesn't say how often children are walking amongst cars v. how often they are in carseats of locked vehicles, so the comparison isn't perfect. Which just brings us back to the "everyone makes the decision they feel is best and we all pray that our children are safe" business. :)

 

My boys are buckled in my van while I do this. They do not climb out of their seats. We don't have lighters in the van. No one rides in our van who smokes. We don't even have any friends who smoke (now there's child endangerment!). They have books, activity books and audio books to do in the van. My boys have been trained to buckle immediately upon entering the van and not to unbuckle and get out until the van has come to a complete stop and I remove the keys.

 

I will drop movies in the drop slot and return library materials in the drop slot while my boys are buckled in the van. When I buckle my boys up and realize I've left a coupon in the house, I leave them in the van to get the coupon. SHOCKING isn't it? :001_rolleyes: I'm sure all you other fabulous moms would unbuckle the crew to go fetch the coupon.

 

I have never gone in a store when my boys were left in the van. I hold their hands when we walk through a parking lot. I do not let them ride bikes in the street unless an adult is watching. I do not let them play in the front yard. They are not allowed to roam around the neighborhood. I do not let them wander around a store by themselves. I would not send them to a bus stop and hours later hope they return. I've never left my children at a daycare facility.

 

These are my parameters

 

And by the way, Dawn? These are pretty much exactly my parameters, right down to not leaving my side in the store.

[KarenNC]

When I buckle my boys up and realize I've left a coupon in the house, I leave them in the van to get the coupon. SHOCKING isn't it? :001_rolleyes: I'm sure all you other fabulous moms would unbuckle the crew to go fetch the coupon.

 

I see that your youngest is 6. If the car is in my driveway at my (much safer than previous neighborhood) house, then I will leave her in the car while I run inside for a second (or send her out to get in the car on her own) now that she's 7. But I wouldn't have done so when she was 2 or 3, no, nor do I leave her in a car alone out in a public parking lot even at this age.

[GothicGyrl]

I will drop movies in the drop slot and return library materials in the drop slot while my boys are buckled in the van. When I buckle my boys up and realize I've left a coupon in the house, I leave them in the van to get the coupon. SHOCKING isn't it? I'm sure all you other fabulous moms would unbuckle the crew to go fetch the coupon.

 

I have never gone in a store when my boys were left in the van. I hold their hands when we walk through a parking lot. I do not let them ride bikes in the street unless an adult is watching. I do not let them play in the front yard. They are not allowed to roam around the neighborhood. I do not let them wander around a store by themselves. I would not send them to a bus stop and hours later hope they return. I've never left my children at a daycare facility.

 

And just to throw a wrench in this, on my side--using her parameters---I am almost the opposite depending on age and situation.

 

I HAVE done:

 

--Left kids in car while I dropped tapes in a drop box--though they were older, never at age 2. At that age, it was fun for her to be able to do it and most of the time, I didn't use the drop box anyway because I was in the habit of returning and re-checking out, so she came in the store with me anyway.

 

--I've run back in to the house while kids sat in car waiting. But remember, I've got kids 4 years apart, so I've always had a much older child sitting with a younger one.

 

--I have allowed them to fetch things around the store, unsupervised. However, this was something that has just recently been started, the 12 year old is only just now allowed to do this, the 16 year old has been doing it since she was around 12. They don't "wander around", they've usually received an order to fetch something and they do and return quickly.

 

--While I've never left them at a bus stop alone, I have had them in Daycare (which I fail to see why a daycare situation is a bad thing in relation to this, some of us needed that help at that time, you know).

 

--And I do let them play outside, unsupervised on a regular basis. I even let them go inside neighbor's homes to play. Mind you, this is just a recent occurence. I've never lived anywhere that was as safe as I am living now, nor have I lived anywhere this was possible--until now. And by unsafe, I'm talking that I just moved from a bonafide ghetto--daily drive by shootings, where only our fenced in 16ft by 18 ft backyard (that was fully enclosed with an 8 ft fence and surrounded by other fenced in yards--we lived in a townhome) was safe. And even then, had I not a pit bull, I might have lost one of my girls due to a criminal running through an unfenced, non-townhome yard, to my fenced in yard (he hopped over everyone's fences to get away) and he was armed.

 

--I even allow my daughter to walk to the mail box, alone and unsupervised (and it is 2-3/10ths of a mile away). The 12 year old, however, has not.

 

I have NOT done:

--Left my children alone for any length of time in a car. Running in to a 7-11 with kids at my current ages, yes. But not at 2, 4, 6, or even 8. But I'd be less likely to say anything to an 8 year old being left, than I would about a 2,4, or 6. Pumping gas and running inside while the 16 yr old pumps and the 12 yr old sits in the car, yep. But not at an age younger than 10.

 

So no, I am not a fabulous mom by any means and I never claimed as much. I simply said I would never and have never left a child under the age of 10, alone in a car at all ever.

[StaceyinLA]

I managed to make it through reading all 16 pages of responses to this (I can't believe I did it), and I am just stunned at this discussion. However, I never really felt the need to respond until this last post.

 

You have a PIT BULL???