Would you let...

[Peek a Boo]

Which statistics are those?

 

We do take precautions while driving, of course! Nonetheless, more children will die in auto accidents this year than will be kidnapped by strangers and made into sex slaves in backyard compounds (or kidnapped by strangers for any reason at all, for that matter). So if we're going to keep children safe from the latter by not letting them ever walk home alone, are we going to keep them safe from the former--a statistically greater threat--by not letting them ride in cars?

 

i linked those in the new thread that just popped up, so i would suggest we move the discussion over there.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1178973#post1178973

 

 

I do agree that danger is everywhere.

I do think there's a pretty big distinction between intentional crimes of kidnapping and sexual assault from those of your garden variety accidents, but that's just me.

[Mrs Mungo]

No, not alone but yes, with a group and a cell phone.

[Mommy22alyns]

NO. The sex offender home does it in.

[fshinkevich]

NO. The sex offender home does it in.

 

 

I would be more worried about the sex offenders that you DON'T know about.

 

Yes, I would let her, as long as she knew the rules of "stranger danger", stuck to an agreed path, and would prefer if she had a cell phone.

[Trixie]

i linked those in the new thread that just popped up, so i would suggest we move the discussion over there.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1178973#post1178973

 

 

I do agree that danger is everywhere.

I do think there's a pretty big distinction between intentional crimes of kidnapping and sexual assault from those of your garden variety accidents, but that's just me.

 

 

On a cursory read, I'm only finding info and statistics from CPS organizations in that link (and its parent organization site); I'm not seeing the relevance to the kinds of safety issues under discussion (sex offenders, kidnapping).

 

I agree that there is a difference between intentional crimes of kidnapping and sexual assault and garden-variety accidents; but how/why does the intentionality of the crime make a statistically less likely occurrence (kidnapping/sexual assault) less safe than a statistically more likely occurrence (auto accident)?

Edited September 3, 2009 by Trixie
clarifying last sentence (oops)

[Peek a Boo]

On a cursory read, I'm only finding info and statistics from CPS organizations in that link (and its parent organization site); I'm not seeing the relevance to the kinds of safety issues under discussion (sex offenders, kidnapping).

 

guess who gets involved when a child is sexually molested or kidnapped?

 

This pdf documents the history and effectiveness of *prevention* and awareness programs. One can google more if you want more info. This is just an easy go-to source.

 

 

eta: here's a quick link -- it includes the history and effectiveness of NUMEROUS prevention awareness programs. take your pick ;)

 

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=prevention+awareness+programs+history&aq=f&aqi=&aq=&aqi=&oq=prevention+awareness+programs+history&fp=d9ca629f83f82f8a

I agree that there is a difference between intentional crimes of kidnapping and sexual assault and garden-variety accidents; but how/why does the intentionality of the crime make a statistically less likely occurrence (kidnapping/sexual assault) safer than a statistically more likely occurrence (auto accident)?

 

It doesn't.

It does increase the steps I am willing to take to prevent that type of danger.

But I do realize some people aren't more worried about their child being sexually molested/kidnapped/tortured than hurt in a car accident.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Peek a Boo

[Trixie]

This pdf documents the history and effectiveness of *prevention* and awareness programs. One can google more if you want more info. This is just an easy go-to source.

 

Yes, as relates to the services provided by child protection agencies. But it doesn't provide any relevant information or statistics about kidnapping and sexual assault, which is what's under discussion.

 

 

 

But I do realize some people aren't more worried about their child being sexually molested/kidnapped/tortured than hurt in a car accident.

 

Yes, I would be one of those people. :D Since car accidents are overwhelmingly more frequent than kidnapping/torture, I am much less worried that the latter will actually happen. Doesn't mean I don't take precautions, just that I make informed decisions about what kinds of precautions to take based on facts rather than fear and that I prepare my child accordingly.

[phathui5]

There are registered sex offenders pretty much everywhere. Based on just the info in the first post, I would say yes.

[Peek a Boo]

Yes, as relates to the services provided by child protection agencies. But it doesn't provide any relevant information or statistics about kidnapping and sexual assault, which is what's under discussion.

Thus the additional google site ;) Or pick up the phone and call any police station and ask them about statistics.

 

 

 

Yes, I would be one of those people. :D Since car accidents are overwhelmingly more frequent than kidnapping/torture, I am much less worried that the latter will actually happen. Doesn't mean I don't take precautions, just that I make informed decisions about what kinds of precautions to take based on facts rather than fear and that I prepare my child accordingly.

 

Bingo.

and the facts over the last 30-40 years show a rise in prevention and safety awareness programs and a decline in danger.

The facts indicate that people --adults and children-- are safer with at least the buddy system, means of communication, and avoiding dangerous scenarios to begin with. It's pretty easy to find all sorts of facts out there:

this one mentions staying with a friend/in a group repeatedly. There are others out there that do the same.

http://www.take25.org/page.asp?page=54

 

but really --- not walking alone is about as basic as putting on a seatbelt.

[Trixie]

Thus the additional google site ;)

.

 

You mean the one that has a lengthy list of potential dangers, including suicide, child abuse, aboriginal diabetes in British Columbia, fraud, loss, etc.? I'm not terribly inclined to weed through all of those to find specific statistics about the actual risk of kidnapping/sexual torture. If you have specific relevant statistics, I'd be happy to take a look. :)

 

 

Bingo.

and the facts over the last 30-40 years show a rise in prevention and safety awareness programs and a decline in danger.

 

 

And are those facts relevant to this specific situation (kidnapping/sexual assault by a stranger)? In fact' date=' according to the "Take 25" site that you linked:

 

"An estimated 115 children experienced a stereotypical kidnapping, the rarest type of abduction potentially posing great risk of serious harm."

 

Certainly those 115 cases are tragic. But 115 out of, say, 75 million children is hardly a crime wave worthy of the kind of fear-mongering that goes on.

 

but really --- not walking alone is about as basic as putting on a seatbelt.

 

Depends on the situation. I don't believe that a carved-in-stone "NEVER WALK ALONE" policy is either sensible or safe.

[Peek a Boo]

.

You mean the one that has a lengthy list of potential dangers, including suicide, child abuse, aboriginal diabetes in British Columbia, fraud, loss, etc.? I'm not terribly inclined to weed through all of those to find specific statistics about the actual risk of kidnapping/sexual torture. If you have specific relevant statistics, I'd be happy to take a look. :)

 

those links outlined the successful use of prevention programs, across the board, for almost every issue out there. If you think kidnapping/ sexual torture is exempt from benefiting from basic safety precautions, i just won't leave my children in your care ;). If you're not terribly inclined to inform yourself to see how prevention programs work and what they say, then ok, but that doesn't offer much credibility to your previous statements about making decisions based on being informed with facts.

 

.

And are those facts relevant to this specific situation (kidnapping/sexual assault by a stranger)?

um, the entire site [and that's just ONE site] is about child abduction and sexual exploitation. Would you like for me to link a thesaurus that spells out kidnapping and sexual assault by a stranger??:001_huh:

 

 

.

In fact, according to the "Take 25" site that you linked:

 

"An estimated 115 children experienced a stereotypical kidnapping, the rarest type of abduction potentially posing great risk of serious harm."

 

Certainly those 115 cases are tragic. But 115 out of, say, 75 million children is hardly a crime wave worthy of the kind of fear-mongering that goes on.

 

 

no-- "stereotypical" is only ONE of the types of abduction.

An estimated 58,200 children were taken in one year by someone outside the family2 – typically for a short time, in connection with another crime

wanna take bets on what the "other crimes" are?

 

you're missing the big picture: the REASON the numbers are declining is because of parents who are actually implementing the protective measures that are outlined in practically every Safety Awareness program out there.

Not to mention,

 

Sexual exploitation of children is a serious problem, and it may be one of the most under-reported crimes.

 

* An estimated one in five girls and one in ten boys will be sexually victimized before reaching adulthood1

* Less than 35% of child sexual assaults are reported to law enforcement.2

 

but hey -- at least they didn't fall prey to a stereotypical kidnapping.

 

If you want to ignore safety measures because you decide to dismiss the number of crimes as stereotypical vs non-stereotypical, then that's your call. But to realize that children are indeed factually kidnapped, assaulted, and possibly returned with horrendous emotional issues is not fear mongering, it is actually looking at the numbers and realizing that thousands of children are intentionally hurt every day.

 

People don't take huge amounts of precautions because of 115 people, but the people who actually study the issues know that thousands of kids are intentionally harmed every day, and how many were likely prevented because of awareness programs and parents implementing safety procedures as simple as the buddy system.

 

.

Depends on the situation. I don't believe that a carved-in-stone "NEVER WALK ALONE" policy is either sensible or safe.

 

and the people who would be investigating the disappearance of your child and see this stuff everyday disagree.

 

oh yeah: you wanted someone to spell it out for you....

 

http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/nismart/03/ns5.html

 

The NISMART–2 results reinforce the generally well known fact that sexual assault is the motive for a considerable percentage of nonfamily abductions. This suggests the importance and usefulness of combining sexual assault prevention strategies and abduction prevention strategies as a way to reduce the rates of both crimes. Recent declines in rates of sexual abuse during the 1990s (Jones and Finkelhor, 2001) point to the possible effectiveness of recent sexual assault prevention strategies, including public awareness, educational programs, and aggressive prosecution to increase general and specific deterrence

 

{{this is what i was referencing to Stacie too -- the complete picture.}}

[Pretty in Pink]

Probably. I'd rather my child ride a bike in that situation. I'd rather them not travel alone. It's a though call.

[Lovedtodeath]

No.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I rode my bike or walked everywhere when I was 13. That was 21 years ago, but I don't think the culture was any safer. I certainly had my share of near misses and creepy episodes. I quickly learned to assess risk, and my Dad frequently talked with me about safety.

 

I actually felt safer alone than with others, because I felt more in control and more free to follow my instincts alone.

 

That said, I would not let her walk home in these circumstances. The sex offender on the way is bad enough, but when you add the fact that she has no cell phone and nobody waiting at home for her to arrive by a certain time, it doesn't sound safe to me.

[Sarah CB]

your 13 yo dd walk home from soccer practice. Here are the facts:

It is 9/10 of a mile.

She would be walking by the home of registered sex offender.

 

Not saying my answer yet. Want to see what others say.

 

Well, I would - in the daylight. But my 13 yo dd is a black belt and they spend quite a lot of time doing self-defence. She can take down a 150lb male black belt with no problem. I have no issues with her walking around in the daylight. I'm more nervous about when it's dark.

[Trixie]

you're missing the big picture

 

Not at all. I'm just not falling prey to the kind of fear-mongering engendered when all crimes involving children (e.g., sexual victimization by family members/acquaintances, kidnapping by non-custodial parents, and kidnapping by strangers/sexual predators) are lumped into the same category headed, "HERE'S WHY YOU NEED TO CHAIN YOUR CHILD TO A STAKE IN YOUR LIVING ROOM." I prefer to inform myself with relevant statistics and facts from reliable sources and base my parenting decisions on relevant data and experience.

 

But since this has devolved into borderline personal attacks (no, I don't need your thesaurus, thank you), I'm respectfully bowing out. :)

[Colleen]

Certainly I'd let a 13 yo walk a mile alone, and the fact that a registered sex offender lives within that range honestly wouldn't change my decision.

[lionfamily1999]

Haven't read all the posts...

 

I would allow dd to walk home. My only caveats are it could not be dark out (I was surprised that time of day was not mentioned) and she would HAVE to be back by a very specific time (iow, no dawdling to chit chat, practice is over and straight home).

[Miss Peregrine]

Haven't read all the posts...

 

I would allow dd to walk home. My only caveats are it could not be dark out (I was surprised that time of day was not mentioned) and she would HAVE to be back by a very specific time (iow, no dawdling to chit chat, practice is over and straight home).

 

I keep forgetting to add that. It would be 6 pm. Not dark. Yet. After Daylight savings, different story.

[Imprimis]

Under those circumstances, no I would not.

[lionfamily1999]

I keep forgetting to add that. It would be 6 pm. Not dark. Yet. After Daylight savings, different story.

I would be uncomfortable about the after dark part. Thinking about it, my dd and older ds walk home from Bible study (further than the walk you mention) and sometimes it does extend after dark. They call first, I know about how long the walk takes, I know the route, and even when it does get dark, I'm not too nervous, because I know the area well. Of course, the few times it's gone late, I've started walking to meet them with a flash light ;)

[Unicorn.]

No, and I'm pretty laid back about stuff like that.

[LizzyBee]

your 13 yo dd walk home from soccer practice. Here are the facts:

It is 9/10 of a mile.

She would be walking by the home of registered sex offender.

 

Not saying my answer yet. Want to see what others say.

 

In our state, the sex offender information includes whether the offender is considered a predator or not. If the offender is a predator, then no. If not, maybe.

[eternalknot]

I tend to decide things on a case-by-case basis, rather than subscribe to (even my own) blanket beliefs. I trust my gut, even when it doesn't make logical sense. We have three registered offenders (two for exposure to children, one for assault) within a mile of our home, which is within walking distance to a city park and public elementary school. So your question is something I've thought about for my own kids, too.

 

Reading your initial post, I thought I'd allow it. Then a subsequent post said it was a national forest, and immediately my gut screamed NO WAY.

 

I tend to be significantly more liberal about permitting my kids to do things with limited or no adult supervision, at an earlier age or circumstances than many of my kids' peers or my own parent peers. But I also watched too many Lifetime for Women movies during my last pregnancy, so maybe that's why the national forest part changed my gut instinct LOL.

[Laura Corin]

I think the house of the registered sex offender is neither here nor there: unless s/he is on house arrest, your daughter could meet the person anywhere.

 

How lonely is the street? Is it a deserted suburban street after dark? Or is it a busy town? Calvin walks between Taekwondo and Scouts every Friday. It's about a mile, and in winter it is dark. It is in the middle of a small town, where there are usually people on the streets. I encourage him to do it.

 

Laura

[keptwoman]

I would be more worried about the sex offenders that you DON'T know about.

 

Yes, I would let her, as long as she knew the rules of "stranger danger", stuck to an agreed path, and would prefer if she had a cell phone.

:iagree:

[st_claire]

I would. I wouldn't want my child to be afraid of the world. I would however make sure that they knew self defense and had some defense weapons on them, but I would expect that for anyone out alone.

 

Some good defensive weapons are a big dog (best choice imo), pepper spray/mace/dog repellant, pressure point tools, sap or sap gloves. Heck, even keys can be used well (place them between your fingers like brass knuckles). If they allow it where you live and she was responsible enough, I would consider other things like a knife, taser, or even a gun.

[Peek a Boo]

Not at all. I'm just not falling prey to the kind of fear-mongering engendered when all crimes involving children (e.g., sexual victimization by family members/acquaintances, kidnapping by non-custodial parents, and kidnapping by strangers/sexual predators) are lumped into the same category headed, "HERE'S WHY YOU NEED TO CHAIN YOUR CHILD TO A STAKE IN YOUR LIVING ROOM." I prefer to inform myself with relevant statistics and facts from reliable sources and base my parenting decisions on relevant data and experience.

 

But since this has devolved into borderline personal attacks (no, I don't need your thesaurus, thank you), I'm respectfully bowing out. :)

 

um, using terms like fear-mongering to describe taking prudent actions to protect thousands of children based on expert advice from people who deal with this type of issue on a daily, professional basis is what makes this discussion involve an attack.

 

I mention to use the buddy system and you spin that into "CHAIN YOUR CHILD TO A STAKE IN YOUR LIVING ROOM." Your comprehension issues in a discussion are proving to be less than stellar.

 

Relevant reliable sources, data, and professional vs anecdotal experience show an amazing amount of success using basic --BASIC- prevention techniques like avoiding dangerous situations in the first place.

That is indisputable.

 

That thousands of children are victims of people they know doesn't make a child walking alone along a predetermined path safe --they are more likely to BE in danger from someone they know, especially in their own community and taking the same route at the same time repeatedly. [again --guard down.] All it takes is for someone to notice it a couple times in a row, follow them to the house, realize nobody is at home, and wait till daylight savings time kicks in for dark cover.

 

and it would likely be someone they know --you bet.

 

you can certainly bow out: I'm more interested in hoping this post reaches or helps someone lurking than realizing it's going to change your mind. And that makes the continued discussion on MY part worth it.

[Peek a Boo]

I would. I wouldn't want my child to be afraid of the world. I would however make sure that they knew self defense and had some defense weapons on them, but I would expect that for anyone out alone.

 

Some good defensive weapons are a big dog (best choice imo), pepper spray/mace/dog repellant, pressure point tools, sap or sap gloves. Heck, even keys can be used well (place them between your fingers like brass knuckles). If they allow it where you live and she was responsible enough, I would consider other things like a knife, taser, or even a gun.

 

one of the things our TKD instructors pound home is to learn the techniques, practice them, and avoid situations where we would NEED to use them if at all possible. Some cities have ordinances about carrying the types of weapons you listed ["responsible" gun bans.], so i'd check those too.

 

I tend to decide things on a case-by-case basis, rather than subscribe to (even my own) blanket beliefs. I trust my gut, even when it doesn't make logical sense.

 

 

absolutely! --which is why I allowed my son at 14/15yo to hike w/ a 40 pound pack around our neighborhood on 5-7 mile treks alone w/ a cell phone getting ready for Philmont. Sometimes his dad went with him, but most of the time he was alone. I wasn't going to put the 4 younger kids in the van and follow at a snail's pace for two hours. His younger brother wasn't ready for the pace and length of the treks.

 

He did print maps, plan routes, schedule check-in calls every 15 minutes, and alerted neighbors and businesses [that i knew] along his route to watch for him if they got a chance. Each time he was out, i always got a call from someone else saying they had seen him. I don't think it "takes a village" to raise a kid, but I do think that when you have a village handy, it makes sense to utilize it. He learned a lot about the REAL World --watching out for each other, knowing that people WANT to help when they know they can, and how to properly plan a trek and be on the phone immediately if he sees anything suspicious.

 

There are ways to learn about the world, foster independence, and still make sure we're taking as many steps as possible to be safe and not end up a burden to our emergency resources.

[Mommy22alyns]

I would be more worried about the sex offenders that you DON'T know about.

.

 

True. So, double no.

[Lovedtodeath]

It seems obvious to me that statistics on kidnapping h ave gone down because we take greater precautions now. But, at the same time, there are many cases of absent parents with kids who roam the streets. I think the difference is that those kids are in groups or in very public areas where there would be witnesses. KWIM?

[christielee7278]

Rose, it is pedophilia.

 

She would not have a cell phone. I would not even be home when she gets there. Other DD has soccer practice on the other side of town that gets out at the same time. I would be on my way home the same time she would be walking.

 

I wouldn't let mine walk. I do let my oldest son ride his bike to the library and such (very small town), but I wouldn't let him walk alone. He also carries my phone when there isn't a definite time set.

[sadiegirl]

I would not...even with cell phone. There have been incidents where people have been abducted and the phone did not prevent the incident.

I don't think it is worth it and I think all I have to do is think about the recent event in California where Jaycee was kidnapped right in front of her dad. Look at all the devastation that has caused in her family. Is it really worth it?

call me paranoid but I don't want to take a chance!

If she feels like you are being unreasonable, explain your reasons by pointing out Shawn Hornbeck and others.

[lionfamily1999]

I would not...even with cell phone. There have been incidents where people have been abducted and the phone did not prevent the incident.

I don't think it is worth it and I think all I have to do is think about the recent event in California where Jaycee was kidnapped right in front of her dad. Look at all the devastation that has caused in her family. Is it really worth it?

call me paranoid but I don't want to take a chance!

If she feels like you are being unreasonable, explain your reasons by pointing out Shawn Hornbeck and others.

Not really recent... wasn't that almost twenty years ago?

[Miss Peregrine]

I decided to let her walk... and then the coach changed the ending time to 6:30 so I have time to get there. BUT, yesterday they let out early and she had started walking home. I caught up to her about halfway.

 

So, if she walks, I will be home when she gets there.

[mcconnellboys]

Absolutely not.

[sadiegirl]

Not really recent... wasn't that almost twenty years ago?

 

Wow...can you tell I need it to be Friday?!?!?! Yeah, it happened 20 years ago but it happens now in broad daylight and I think independence is a good thing but this is a much different world than 20 years ago and one walk could change the course of a family. But, that's me speaking for my family. Everyone is different.

[....]

I live a couple of miles away from where the monster who kidnapped those teenagers (Shawn Hornbeck was one of them) was holding them and they suspect he kidnapped and killed another in our area. He specifically said that he was targeting rural areas because it was so much easier to kidnap someone. He also targeted teenage boys (one of them was on a bike and he hit the bike with his car to knock the kid on the ground) and said he cruised past a few bus stops looking for targets.

 

This story was just too close for us. There's too many weirdos out there. I wouldn't let my kid walk home or wait at the bus stop alone. I know the neighbors think I'm overprotective, but, Geez, how many of these stories do I have to see?

[petepie2]

I would not allow my child to walk home alone in this situation. Statistically speaking, I'm sure she would be fine. However, for those kids who have been attacked, abducted, etc., it frankly doesn't matter to them or their families that it was a statistically rare event. It happened to THEM. They were the ONE. So I want to do whatever I can within reason to prevent it. I don't think not allowing a child to walk a mile home past mostly empty houses and a sex offender is unreasonable. (there are a lot a negatives in that last sentence...I hope I got that right!)

[lovetobehome]

Nope, never. In fact, *I* would not walk there alone. I would personally just not do it. Don't want me or my kid to be the one he might see as he looks out the window and gets an idea to stalk us/follow us/break into our home late at night. I know you can't control everything, but I would not put myself or my child at greater risk than I have to. I understand why others would, and I understand maybe I am living in fear, but personally, no.

[LibraryLover]

Well, my children walk or bike 2-4 miles almost daily. One of my teens is a runner, & does a loop at about 6am almost daily.

 

We do not live in an isloated area, however. We live on a scenic country road, and it's like grand central out there with the runners, walkers, and bikers.

 

Does your child have a cell phone, could the child ride a bike? Walk with a friend?

 

Do you know the nature of the sex offender's crime?

Edited September 5, 2009 by LibraryLover

[Earth Angel_79]

I would not allow my child to walk home alone in this situation. Statistically speaking, I'm sure she would be fine. However, for those kids who have been attacked, abducted, etc., it frankly doesn't matter to them or their families that it was a statistically rare event. It happened to THEM. They were the ONE. So I want to do whatever I can within reason to prevent it. I don't think not allowing a child to walk a mile home past mostly empty houses and a sex offender is unreasonable. (there are a lot a negatives in that last sentence...I hope I got that right!)

:iagree:

 

People keep talking about the statistics in relation to car accidents, however to live through a car accident would not carry the same kind of psychological trauma that something like a kidnapping, etc (our worst fears) would.

I also agree with the next poster (I can't figure out how to multi-quote yet) that I wouldn't walk alone myself in a rural wooded area.

[Liz CA]

:iagree:

 

NO.

I have this thing about sex offenders. It makes my skin crawl. Yes, I know some got on the list with dubious convictions but I would rather be safe than oh soooo sorry!

[ma23peas]

I found it interesting that the man arrested for holding that girl for 18 years made a comment to one of his customers who was printing a flyer on how to protect your child from predators...his words...

 

"Don't let your children walk alone anywhere"

 

Out of the mouths of wolves.

 

Tara