Does this sound like a fair consequence for DS?

[RoughCollie]

A few days ago, in the midst of a pillow fight, DS1 got hit hard too many times by DS2 and impulsively and angrily picked up a doll's toy bell and threw it hard at DS2.

 

It knocked out 2 of DS2's teeth, and sheared off 2 more. DS 2 has had a root canal and other dental work done a couple of times since then, still has to go to an orthodontist for a brace, and has to have 1 crown put in in 2 months, and 2 more added in 2 years (when his jaw should have stopped growing).

 

In addition, DS2 has been in pain for the last 4 days, which increased significantly today after yesterday's procedures. We had to switch from using Tylenol 3 to percocet today.

 

It looks like the dental bills will run around $12K.

 

DS1 is very upset about what he did. He said the entire episode, from idea to hitting DS2 with the bell took about 2 seconds. He is appalled that he hurt DS2 so badly, that it is going to cost so much (we cannot afford this, but we will somehow get it paid for), and etc.

 

I don't think it is enough that DS1 is upset, so I came up with a plan. (Anger management & impulse control issues will be dealt with separately.)

 

The plan is that DS1 do community service (volunteer work) for 10 hours for every $1,000 we spend to fix DS2's teeth. I will do it with him. So far, the bill is $3,500, with more to come.

 

My thinking is that DS1 cannot be expected to actually pay this dental bill -- he has no income, and it would take him forever to earn that much money with chores around the house.

 

DS1 cannot make it up to DS2, it's just impossible. He'd be doing DS2's chores for a *long* time, and I don't see that DS2 having a personal servant does either son any good.

 

But with community service, DS2 can give something to others, learn a lot, discover the satisfaction that comes from helping others in a meaningful way, and maybe even appreciate what he has.

 

Otherwise, I fear that DS1 will get over his remorse and basically get away scot-free while DS2, DH & I pay the real price of his actions.

 

What do you all think? Is this reasonable? Do you have another suggestion?

 

Thanks for your help,

RC

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

 

I don't think it is enough that DS1 is upset, so I came up with a plan. (Anger management & impulse control issues will be dealt with separately.)

 

The plan is that DS1 do community service (volunteer work) for 10 hours for every $1,000 we spend to fix DS2's teeth. I will do it with him. So far, the bill is $3,500, with more to come.

 

My thinking is that DS1 cannot be expected to actually pay this dental bill -- he has no income, and it would take him forever to earn that much money with chores around the house.

 

DS1 cannot make it up to DS2, it's just impossible. He'd be doing DS2's chores for a *long* time, and I don't see that DS2 having a personal servant does either son any good.

 

But with community service, DS2 can give something to others, learn a lot, discover the satisfaction that comes from helping others in a meaningful way, and maybe even appreciate what he has.

 

Otherwise, I fear that DS1 will get over his remorse and basically get away scot-free while DS2, DH & I pay the real price of his actions.

 

What do you all think? Is this reasonable? Do you have another suggestion?

 

Thanks for your help,

RC

 

Mmm, well, I think that it might be excessive, yes. What he did was childish. The throwing of the object might be what you should focus on, not necessarily the end result. If his intention was to do great harm, then yeah, assign the hours and get his heart in check. If he mindlessly picked it up not realizing the danger and threw it, I would probably give the same consequences that I would have if he had thrown it and cut his brother's chin open or broken a lamp. (And that definitely sounds like the case.)

 

I do believe he should be reasonably required to do some sort of service to the family or community to help him alleviate his guilt and "pay off" his debt to society. But really, the burden is too much here for a young child. What happened was a fluke. And 120 hours is a very big burden, IMO. I appreciate that you need to do this. But that's a LOT. I don't believe he'll forget his remorse that easily. Not if he's as tenderhearted as he seems when you write about this.

 

I'd take his true remorse as the better part of payment, with the guilt he bears over his brother's pain as another part and his work for the family or community to be a very small part. He'll never forget this, and he'll never do it again. And that's what you want, right? Not a pound of flesh. Not "teaching him a lesson." Not rubbing his nose in it. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth or its equivalent is one way to do this, but for a child? When the natural punishment is an unpayable burden and the child *knows* this, I think the idea of forgiveness and grace will go a long way in mending his now broken heart.

 

Those who do serious harm without intending to really do need a city of refuge to run to where their punishment isn't more than they can bear. And those who accidentally do harm are often in need of as much loving reassurance as the victim.

 

Just my opinion, of course.

 

Edit: I didn't realize he was 14, but that makes what Amy says very relevant. He's still learning what being strong and being flooded with impulses fueled by testosterone and anger are all about. He really is doing a swing between little boy and grown boy and it's tough. Make him accountable by all means. Give grace and understanding in the same breath.

[Amy in Orlando]

Mmm, well, I think that it might be excessive, yes. What he did was childish. The throwing of the object might be what you should focus on, not necessarily the end result. If his intention was to do great harm, then yeah, assign the hours and get his heart in check. If he mindlessly picked it up not realizing the danger and threw it, I would probably give the same consequences that I would have if he had thrown it and cut his brother's chin open or broken a lamp. (And that definitely sounds like the case.)

 

I do believe he should be reasonably required to do some sort of service to the family or community to help him alleviate his guilt and "pay off" his debt to society. But really, the burden is too much here for a young child. What happened was a fluke. And 120 hours is a very big burden, IMO. I appreciate that you need to do this. But that's a LOT. I don't believe he'll forget his remorse that easily. Not if he's as tenderhearted as he seems when you write about this.

 

I'd take his true remorse as the better part of payment, with the guilt he bears over his brother's pain as another part and his work for the family or community to be a very small part. He'll never forget this, and he'll never do it again. And that's what you want, right? Not a pound of flesh. Not "teaching him a lesson." Not rubbing his nose in it. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth or its equivalent is one way to do this, but for a child? When the natural punishment is an unpayable burden and the child *knows* this, I think the idea of forgiveness and grace will go a long way in mending his now broken heart.

 

Those who do serious harm without intending to really do need a city of refuge to run to where their punishment isn't more than they can bear. And those who accidentally do harm are often in need of as much loving reassurance as the victim.

 

Just my opinion, of course.

 

I agree with Pam. 14 is a tricky age (for me at least) they're much more grown up than they've ever been, but they're still kind of dumb and child-like. We've had some issues here recently with my 15 and twin 14 year-olds that have ended with them all being surprised at their own strength and ability to TRULY physically hurt one another. It's a new dynamic for all of them.

 

Some community service or maybe even just having him show up everyday to help clean up the dentist's office is not unwarranted. But, having him make up (in time, labor, punishment) the actual cost to you and dh seems a bit much to me. What if the same thing had happened while your ds2 was at a friend's house? Would you expect as much from the other child?

 

I doubt your ds1 will forget this experience or how it has made him feel. He'll feel the effects of you and dh having to scale back to pay for the dental work. I wouldn't drag out his punishment too long. I think if you do it has the potential to backfire on you.

 

((())) I know this is a hard time for me with my boys. I'm sure it feels that much worse to you because there was real damage done to one of your sons. Though boys normally get along really well, there are times where their sheer physical-ness feels so out-of-control and scary to me. In your case, the scary thing did happen. I hope you can all move on without too much more trauma.

[Kay in Cal]

I agree with Pam...

 

There is a reason the courts look first and formost at intent. From everything you've said, his intent was not to injure. Yes, it was a very poor choice to grab and throw, poor impulse control, and had unfortunate outcomes. He can learn an important lesson about how critical it is to control momentary impulses. Punishment should be reserved for intentional crimes, not accidents.

 

I'm one who thinks service should never be used as punishment, is not going to teach that lesson. That's a skill that is learned little by little over time, and I'm sure this incident will lead to a big step forward.

 

He already knows how much pain he is causing to his brother and to your family. I want to gently suggest that the lesson he needs to hear most of all now is that he can be loved and forgiven, by his brother and by his parents. That he is still a good person. I know this seems like a huge thing, but if it is the worst, most hurtful mistake he makes in his life he'll be a stellar human being. Cuddle him close and let him know that you understand how it feels to really screw up--and that there is a place for redemption.

[Amy in Orlando]

I agree with Pam...

 

There is a reason the courts look first and formost at intent. From everything you've said, his intent was not to injure. Yes, it was a very poor choice to grab and throw, poor impulse control, and had unfortunate outcomes. He can learn an important lesson about how critical it is to control momentary impulses. Punishment should be reserved for intentional crimes, not accidents.

 

I'm one who thinks service should never be used as punishment, is not going to teach that lesson. That's a skill that is learned little by little over time, and I'm sure this incident will lead to a big step forward.

 

He already knows how much pain he is causing to his brother and to your family. I want to gently suggest that the lesson he needs to hear most of all now is that he can be loved and forgiven, by his brother and by his parents. That he is still a good person. I know this seems like a huge thing, but if it is the worst, most hurtful mistake he makes in his life he'll be a stellar human being. Cuddle him close and let him know that you understand how it feels to really screw up--and that there is a place for redemption.

 

Yay Kay! I absolutely love this response.

[lynn]

I can't add any more than the other ladies. No punshiment just love and forgiveness. The incident and how his family reacts will be part of who he is the rest of his life and it's important to know and feel that love and forgiveness.

[Danestress]

I agree with Pam...

 

There is a reason the courts look first and formost at intent. From everything you've said, his intent was not to injure.

 

 

Hmmm. I think the legal intent finding would be "Did the accused intend to throw an object that the victim?" If he really meant to toss it in a storage bin, that would arguably be lack of intent. But the amount of damage? We live for the reasonably foreseeable results of our actions.

[Danestress]

I think it's just fine.

 

He's 14 years old. He doesn't have a job, I presume. This would basically mean spending one day of the week all summer doing some community service. That won't hurt him one bit, and probably would be good for all our 14 year old children, even if they do nothing wrong ever.

 

I think 14 is old enough to know better than to throw something that way. I totally understand that he didn't mean to and that he needs to not live under the guilt of it forever, so I wouldn't want to pound it into his skull "You were stupid!" lol But I think asking him to make a community contribution in the spirit of penance is fine.

 

And you know, he might find that he LIKES the community service. When we were growing up, most of us volunteered somewhere at that age - one friend worked at the library, my sisters candy striped at the hospital, we volunteered for special olympics. It wasn't really a big deal. We liked doing those things. 14 can be kind of boring sometimes, and I am in favor of keeping boys busy anyway. I wouldn't choose a volunteer service for him - I wouldn't want it to feel punitive. I would help him choose something that he might actually really like and learn from.

[RoughCollie]

Thank you all for your replies. I'd like to discuss this a bit more, if you don't mind, and get your opinions on the matter because I value your opinions highly.

 

DS1 does feel the love the forgiveness, believe me. We are as concerned about his mental health regarding this, as we are about DS2's physical and psychological reaction to what happened to him.

 

The thing is, the community service requirement does not add up to 120 hours all at once. The first half, 60 hours, would take 2 years to complete. That's less than an hour a week and it does not require him to make up the *actual cost* to anyone, unless he is doing work for free that he would in the ordinary course earn $100 an hour to do.

 

So you all don't think this would be a good idea?

 

I know about intent and how quickly it can be formed. I am a criminal defense lawyer.

 

DS1 did not intend to hurt his brother this badly. But he did intend to throw the object and he did intend for it to hit his brother -- just not in a body part that would sustain serious injury. That's criminal intent (I'm not saying this is a crime). The intent doesn't have to be to injure -- just to throw an object and hit a person (the person injured doesn't have to be the person aimed at).

 

I have considered testosterone and newly developed physical strength. I've had to tell the boys in the last couple of years that they are stronger than they realize.

 

Another consideration is that, at this age, impulse control and good judgment can be poor. So, the rule at our house has always been that if one child has a problem with another child they are to let me know immediately. The reason for the rule is to get adult help before a situation deteriorates into fisticuffs. If DS1 had followed that rule.... well, perhaps that's where poor impulse control comes into play.

 

At age 14, however, DS1 is old enough to be tried as an adult if he commits murder, and is certainly old enough to be convicted of a crime through the juvenile system. He not only legally bears a lot of responsibility at this age, he also would have to bear considerable consequences if his behavior got out of hand, regardless of whether testosterone or poor impulse control are factors.

 

I don't think DS1 is on the road to becoming a criminal. I just want to nip this sort of behavior in the bud. Because, make no mistake about it, this was a battery. If he had done it to someone outside the immediate family, he could have been arrested for it. I realize that the odds are tiny that DS1 would physically hurt someone outside the family. But I don't see how hurting one's *brother* makes it all better, except that he has protection from the family from potential legal consequences of his actions.

 

This was not an "accident". An accident is something which occurs through no fault of either party. For instance, if someone is driving a car and has a heart attack and plows into another car, the driver is not at fault because he could not prevent that from happening and had no intent at all. That is different from criminal negligence (the wreck occurred because the driver was talking on his cell phone and not paying attention).

 

The severity of the injury which occurs as a result of a battery, or lack thereof, does not change the fact that a battery occurred. A battery is, in its simplest form, an unwanted touching of one person (the victim) by another (the perp). That unwanted touching can be as simple as a kiss.

 

To put it plainly, DS1 was angry, and injury to DS2 resulted from that.

 

Also, when I floated the idea of community service and said it was volunteer work and that I would do it with him, and that it would work out to about an hour a week, DS replied, "People should take care of themselves and not be lazy and expect other people to do it." He went on to say that if anyone offers to help him, he's not stupid, he'll sit back and take all the help he can get.

 

Well, I'm wondering if the community service idea wouldn't teach DS1 some compassion, and help him understand that everyone is not the same, i.e., some people do need help. I'd have to check out volunteer opportunities near us, and I think I could find us some safe volunteer work -- like at the hospital, instead of at the local homeless shelter (which has mostly drunks & drug addicts who are mentally ill and who would scare DS).

 

Maybe this situation should *not* be used to serve these purposes. The courts have been known to mete out community service as punishment for crimes. I don't look at it as punishment, but as an opportunity and a penance.

 

Also, I've known a lot of actual criminals who say they are sorry, they won't do it again, they feel remorse. Neophytes dealing with them sometimes believe them. It's all a bunch of b.s. -- people with this mindset of irresponsibility end up back in prison. In decades of dealing with criminals, DH and I have kept track of outcomes and 1% of our clients have been truly remorseful and turned their lives around -- a much, much higher percentage have been given the opportunity to do so and not availed themselves of it.

 

DS1 is very remorseful, but he is also rationalizing his actions. He says it was an accident, even though he aimed at and meant to hit DS2 (an accident because he did not intend to cause *serious* injury). He says DS2 provoked him, and is partially at fault, and should have been doing his schoolwork not having a pillow fight (so should have DS1). The trouble is that the provocation and the "self-defense" claimed by DS1 were not of equal force -- thus, self-defense won't fly here, legally speaking. And he had an opportunity, the first time DS2 hit him hard with the pillow, to leave the room and come to DH and I for help, but he stayed, got hit again, and took matters into his own hands.

 

I would like to see DS1 take responsibility without rationalizing his behavior to excuse it. The rationalizations may help explain his behavior, but they do not excuse it, IMO.

 

All this legal talk is part and parcel of life in our family, and I realize that it isn't in most families.

 

Also, DS1 is concerned that DS2 will go back to school and tell the other kids what happened. DS1 is afraid the other kids will hate him and see him as a vicious bell-thrower. I have asked DS2 not to talk about this incident at school for that reason, because it is a private family matter, and because I don't want this to become fodder for gossip for the kids at school. I told the principal and teachers that DS2 is out because of his injuries sustained while playing, and that if they have questions or concerns to contact me because I instructed my children not to discuss it with anyone.

 

What say you?

[mellifera]

I think community service is a good idea. Your son needs to learn that there are consequences to his actions and this is a good way to do that. It also has the added benefit of teaching him how to deal with other people. Who knows - he may decide that he enjoys it.:)

[Whisperlily]

Wow, I really think you're taking this to a whole different level than the actual incident that occurred.

 

Perhaps your familiarity with criminals, criminal intent and the legal system have colored your view of this situation. I agree with the previous posters. Your sons love each other (from what you've said.) I don't get the feeling like this was the next step in a pattern of increasingly violent behavior.

 

Look at his track record. This sounds like an act of childishness that he already feels terrible about. I honestly think you're making a bigger deal of this than is necessary.

 

Are you punishing him for his action, (losing self control and making a bad, in the moment judgement that he already feels terrible about,) or punishing him for the amount of "pain" it caused you? Financially, emotionally?

 

It seems like you're taking this incident out of the context of his normal behavior. Do you really want him to go on for months, or years, with the burden of his mistake on his shoulders, causing him to think of himself as someone whose actions deserve punishment? Wouldn't you rather spend the time reassuring him that he IS a valuable, upright citizen? You're dealing with his vision of himself as well during this time, and to continue keeping him in the category of "wrongdoer" might be a mistake.

 

Keep the punishment short. If you feel like it needs to be a strong punishment, make it physically demanding. Put that testosterone to good use and let him work through the feelings. Give him a couple LONG days of hard work. Let him pay the price and be done so he can move on and begin rebuilding his self esteem.

[mellifera]

You can check with your local church and see if they have any programs. Some of the churches in our area organize leaf raking in the fall for elderly people who might have trouble getting that chore done - also lawn care during the spring and summer. Volunteering at your local library - some libraries have work that they let volunteers do. Adopt a highway programs. My daughter is involved in a reading to seniors program once a week. I'm not sure how much the seniors need someone to read to them, but they truly enjoy the company. :) Just a few ideas.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Thank you all for your replies. I'd like to discuss this a bit more, if you don't mind, and get your opinions on the matter because I value your opinions highly.

 

DS1 does feel the love the forgiveness, believe me. We are as concerned about his mental health regarding this, as we are about DS2's physical and psychological reaction to what happened to him.

 

The thing is, the community service requirement does not add up to 120 hours all at once. The first half, 60 hours, would take 2 years to complete. That's less than an hour a week and it does not require him to make up the *actual cost* to anyone, unless he is doing work for free that he would in the ordinary course earn $100 an hour to do.

 

So you all don't think this would be a good idea?

 

I know about intent and how quickly it can be formed. I am a criminal defense lawyer.

 

DS1 did not intend to hurt his brother this badly. But he did intend to throw the object and he did intend for it to hit his brother -- just not in a body part that would sustain serious injury. That's criminal intent (I'm not saying this is a crime). The intent doesn't have to be to injure -- just to throw an object and hit a person (the person injured doesn't have to be the person aimed at).

 

I have considered testosterone and newly developed physical strength. I've had to tell the boys in the last couple of years that they are stronger than they realize.

 

Another consideration is that, at this age, impulse control and good judgment can be poor. So, the rule at our house has always been that if one child has a problem with another child they are to let me know immediately. The reason for the rule is to get adult help before a situation deteriorates into fisticuffs. If DS1 had followed that rule.... well, perhaps that's where poor impulse control comes into play.

 

At age 14, however, DS1 is old enough to be tried as an adult if he commits murder, and is certainly old enough to be convicted of a crime through the juvenile system. He not only legally bears a lot of responsibility at this age, he also would have to bear considerable consequences if his behavior got out of hand, regardless of whether testosterone or poor impulse control are factors.

 

I don't think DS1 is on the road to becoming a criminal. I just want to nip this sort of behavior in the bud. Because, make no mistake about it, this was a battery. If he had done it to someone outside the immediate family, he could have been arrested for it. I realize that the odds are tiny that DS1 would physically hurt someone outside the family. But I don't see how hurting one's *brother* makes it all better, except that he has protection from the family from potential legal consequences of his actions.

 

This was not an "accident". An accident is something which occurs through no fault of either party. For instance, if someone is driving a car and has a heart attack and plows into another car, the driver is not at fault because he could not prevent that from happening and had no intent at all. That is different from criminal negligence (the wreck occurred because the driver was talking on his cell phone and not paying attention).

 

The severity of the injury which occurs as a result of a battery, or lack thereof, does not change the fact that a battery occurred. A battery is, in its simplest form, an unwanted touching of one person (the victim) by another (the perp). That unwanted touching can be as simple as a kiss.

 

To put it plainly, DS1 was angry, and injury to DS2 resulted from that.

 

Also, when I floated the idea of community service and said it was volunteer work and that I would do it with him, and that it would work out to about an hour a week, DS replied, "People should take care of themselves and not be lazy and expect other people to do it." He went on to say that if anyone offers to help him, he's not stupid, he'll sit back and take all the help he can get.

 

Well, I'm wondering if the community service idea wouldn't teach DS1 some compassion, and help him understand that everyone is not the same, i.e., some people do need help. I'd have to check out volunteer opportunities near us, and I think I could find us some safe volunteer work -- like at the hospital, instead of at the local homeless shelter (which has mostly drunks & drug addicts who are mentally ill and who would scare DS).

 

Maybe this situation should *not* be used to serve these purposes. The courts have been known to mete out community service as punishment for crimes. I don't look at it as punishment, but as an opportunity and a penance.

 

Also, I've known a lot of actual criminals who say they are sorry, they won't do it again, they feel remorse. Neophytes dealing with them sometimes believe them. It's all a bunch of b.s. -- people with this mindset of irresponsibility end up back in prison. In decades of dealing with criminals, DH and I have kept track of outcomes and 1% of our clients have been truly remorseful and turned their lives around -- a much, much higher percentage have been given the opportunity to do so and not availed themselves of it.

 

DS1 is very remorseful, but he is also rationalizing his actions. He says it was an accident, even though he aimed at and meant to hit DS2 (an accident because he did not intend to cause *serious* injury). He says DS2 provoked him, and is partially at fault, and should have been doing his schoolwork not having a pillow fight (so should have DS1). The trouble is that the provocation and the "self-defense" claimed by DS1 were not of equal force -- thus, self-defense won't fly here, legally speaking. And he had an opportunity, the first time DS2 hit him hard with the pillow, to leave the room and come to DH and I for help, but he stayed, got hit again, and took matters into his own hands.

 

I would like to see DS1 take responsibility without rationalizing his behavior to excuse it. The rationalizations may help explain his behavior, but they do not excuse it, IMO.

 

All this legal talk is part and parcel of life in our family, and I realize that it isn't in most families.

 

Also, DS1 is concerned that DS2 will go back to school and tell the other kids what happened. DS1 is afraid the other kids will hate him and see him as a vicious bell-thrower. I have asked DS2 not to talk about this incident at school for that reason, because it is a private family matter, and because I don't want this to become fodder for gossip for the kids at school. I told the principal and teachers that DS2 is out because of his injuries sustained while playing, and that if they have questions or concerns to contact me because I instructed my children not to discuss it with anyone.

 

What say you?

 

My concern was that every time he went to do the service, the "crime" would be put back in front of him. And I worried a bit about the scapegoat aspect and what that can do to family dynamics.

 

But considering what you wrote here? I think your instincts are good. There's an attitude to correct, and not just for the recent misdeed. Different kids get past the "It's not my fault!" place at different ages, and I simply wasn't considering that. When he's remorseful but it was not *really* his fault, then I agree you have to act decisively to help him take full responsibility for the reaction.

 

It would, IME, be preferable to make service to others unrelated to punishment. But this has presented itself nicely as an opportunity, and perhaps it's meant to be. I humbly defer to your mommy instincts. ;) Your kids seem well-served by them

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

 

Keep the punishment short. If you feel like it needs to be a strong punishment, make it physically demanding. Put that testosterone to good use and let him work through the feelings. Give him a couple LONG days of hard work. Let him pay the price and be done so he can move on and begin rebuilding his self esteem.

 

I am thinking along these lines as well. If you want 120 hours would it be possible on weekends and in the summer for him to do six to eight hours at a time? This would force him to give up his time in larger chunks (and thus reinforce that this is serious) and yet he'd be done and his "payment" complete sooner.

 

Then if you wanted to implement an hour per week per child as a family thing, he could then serve along with the rest of the family.

 

Good luck as you figure this out. I know it's not easy.

[8filltheheart]

I'm going to agree with all the other ladies. You have to look at the child as a whole......was this the first time such a split second decision was made that caused such a grievous outcome? I certainly would not respond so harshly to a child who made a single bad decision. If this child habitually makes spontaneous decisions, that is a different scenerio.

 

If I had inflicted that sort of trauma on a sibling when I was that age, it would have severely impacted me. I have a child who it would not impact at all. I think you ultimately need to evaluate your specific child. I know my response would differ depending on which of my children actually threw the object. If it was one of my tender-hearted children that was reacting in a self-defensive mode, my reaction would be different than if it were my child that inflicts damage every time he doesn't have his way.

 

Only you can evaluate the scenerio of your family.

[Mrs. H.]

I happen to think that not only are you going in the right direction with this disciplinary tactic, but bravo to you for wanting to nip this in the bud, instead of riding it out to see if it happens again.

 

Yes, teens need grace and love and forgiveness, and I believe your son is getting that. Your original post showed a great deal of love for your son, indicated by the fact that you were torn over the issue at all. I think the community service is a great idea, whether you choose to make it a "punishment" or not. I also think it would be good for ALL teens to do some community service in a safe enviroment, because teens often have tunnel vision, and they think the whole world is black and white, and if only they could rule, everything would work out. It's good for them to see that consequences have actions, sometimes bad things happen to good people, not all people served by charities are lazy and irresponsible, and that their lives are truly blessed by the fact that they have good parents who love them and want them to be responsible adults.

 

Teens need to see that poor choices can hurt them later on in life, that controlling their temper is important, and that a little self-discipline can go a long way towards making you a happy adult.

[JudoMom]

Thank you all for your replies. I'd like to discuss this a bit more, if you don't mind, and get your opinions on the matter because I value your opinions highly.

 

DS1 does feel the love the forgiveness, believe me. We are as concerned about his mental health regarding this, as we are about DS2's physical and psychological reaction to what happened to him.

 

The thing is, the community service requirement does not add up to 120 hours all at once. The first half, 60 hours, would take 2 years to complete. That's less than an hour a week and it does not require him to make up the *actual cost* to anyone, unless he is doing work for free that he would in the ordinary course earn $100 an hour to do.

 

So you all don't think this would be a good idea?

 

I know about intent and how quickly it can be formed. I am a criminal defense lawyer.

 

DS1 did not intend to hurt his brother this badly. But he did intend to throw the object and he did intend for it to hit his brother -- just not in a body part that would sustain serious injury. That's criminal intent (I'm not saying this is a crime). The intent doesn't have to be to injure -- just to throw an object and hit a person (the person injured doesn't have to be the person aimed at).

 

I have considered testosterone and newly developed physical strength. I've had to tell the boys in the last couple of years that they are stronger than they realize.

 

Another consideration is that, at this age, impulse control and good judgment can be poor. So, the rule at our house has always been that if one child has a problem with another child they are to let me know immediately. The reason for the rule is to get adult help before a situation deteriorates into fisticuffs. If DS1 had followed that rule.... well, perhaps that's where poor impulse control comes into play.

 

At age 14, however, DS1 is old enough to be tried as an adult if he commits murder, and is certainly old enough to be convicted of a crime through the juvenile system. He not only legally bears a lot of responsibility at this age, he also would have to bear considerable consequences if his behavior got out of hand, regardless of whether testosterone or poor impulse control are factors.

 

I don't think DS1 is on the road to becoming a criminal. I just want to nip this sort of behavior in the bud. Because, make no mistake about it, this was a battery. If he had done it to someone outside the immediate family, he could have been arrested for it. I realize that the odds are tiny that DS1 would physically hurt someone outside the family. But I don't see how hurting one's *brother* makes it all better, except that he has protection from the family from potential legal consequences of his actions.

 

This was not an "accident". An accident is something which occurs through no fault of either party. For instance, if someone is driving a car and has a heart attack and plows into another car, the driver is not at fault because he could not prevent that from happening and had no intent at all. That is different from criminal negligence (the wreck occurred because the driver was talking on his cell phone and not paying attention).

 

The severity of the injury which occurs as a result of a battery, or lack thereof, does not change the fact that a battery occurred. A battery is, in its simplest form, an unwanted touching of one person (the victim) by another (the perp). That unwanted touching can be as simple as a kiss.

 

To put it plainly, DS1 was angry, and injury to DS2 resulted from that.

 

Also, when I floated the idea of community service and said it was volunteer work and that I would do it with him, and that it would work out to about an hour a week, DS replied, "People should take care of themselves and not be lazy and expect other people to do it." He went on to say that if anyone offers to help him, he's not stupid, he'll sit back and take all the help he can get.

 

Well, I'm wondering if the community service idea wouldn't teach DS1 some compassion, and help him understand that everyone is not the same, i.e., some people do need help. I'd have to check out volunteer opportunities near us, and I think I could find us some safe volunteer work -- like at the hospital, instead of at the local homeless shelter (which has mostly drunks & drug addicts who are mentally ill and who would scare DS).

 

Maybe this situation should *not* be used to serve these purposes. The courts have been known to mete out community service as punishment for crimes. I don't look at it as punishment, but as an opportunity and a penance.

 

Also, I've known a lot of actual criminals who say they are sorry, they won't do it again, they feel remorse. Neophytes dealing with them sometimes believe them. It's all a bunch of b.s. -- people with this mindset of irresponsibility end up back in prison. In decades of dealing with criminals, DH and I have kept track of outcomes and 1% of our clients have been truly remorseful and turned their lives around -- a much, much higher percentage have been given the opportunity to do so and not availed themselves of it.

 

DS1 is very remorseful, but he is also rationalizing his actions. He says it was an accident, even though he aimed at and meant to hit DS2 (an accident because he did not intend to cause *serious* injury). He says DS2 provoked him, and is partially at fault, and should have been doing his schoolwork not having a pillow fight (so should have DS1). The trouble is that the provocation and the "self-defense" claimed by DS1 were not of equal force -- thus, self-defense won't fly here, legally speaking. And he had an opportunity, the first time DS2 hit him hard with the pillow, to leave the room and come to DH and I for help, but he stayed, got hit again, and took matters into his own hands.

 

I would like to see DS1 take responsibility without rationalizing his behavior to excuse it. The rationalizations may help explain his behavior, but they do not excuse it, IMO.

 

All this legal talk is part and parcel of life in our family, and I realize that it isn't in most families.

 

Also, DS1 is concerned that DS2 will go back to school and tell the other kids what happened. DS1 is afraid the other kids will hate him and see him as a vicious bell-thrower. I have asked DS2 not to talk about this incident at school for that reason, because it is a private family matter, and because I don't want this to become fodder for gossip for the kids at school. I told the principal and teachers that DS2 is out because of his injuries sustained while playing, and that if they have questions or concerns to contact me because I instructed my children not to discuss it with anyone.

 

What say you?

 

I would have him do the community service--not because of the bell-throwing, but because of his bad attitude about helping others. I'd make it a family affair, though, and not used as a punishment but instead as a teaching tool.

 

He threw the bell because ds2 was antagonizing him. Sure, he should've left the room and he should've gotten a parent. In an ideal world, that would have happened, but in an ideal world he would not have been getting swacked by his brother. Getting hit hard by a pillow hurts. It sounds all nice and cushy, because it's a pillow, but it can really knock you for a loop.

 

You say he intended to hit his brother with the bell, but I would argue that isn't necessarily the case. As a person who has thrown objects a few times at people in the past :o, my intent wasn't to hit the person with the object, my intent was to get the person to stop whatever it was they were doing to antagonize me.

 

And by definition, wasn't ds2 also performing battery on ds1, if battery indeed can be defined at "an unwanted touching of one person (the victim) by another (the perp). That unwanted touching can be as simple as a kiss."? He just got the worst end of the deal.

 

It sounds to me like both sons were showing poor impulse control.

[Remudamom]

I think you're on track. From what you've said it sounds like your son is trying to justify what happened, and he can't do that. And while I agree with him basically about people taking care of themselves I think he's got the wrong idea.

[SnowWhite]

I am thinking along these lines as well. If you want 120 hours would it be possible on weekends and in the summer for him to do six to eight hours at a time? This would force him to give up his time in larger chunks (and thus reinforce that this is serious) and yet he'd be done and his "payment" complete sooner.

 

Then if you wanted to implement an hour per week per child as a family thing, he could then serve along with the rest of the family.

 

Good luck as you figure this out. I know it's not easy.

 

This sounds reasonable.

 

At first blush, I felt the number of hours you were considering was excessive considering your son's age.

 

If the bell had glanced off your son's cheek causing a bad bruise, what would the punishment have been?

 

Part of the severity of the outcome is due to chance, not your older son's violence.

[RoughCollie]

There's no "perhaps" about it. My viewpoints as a mother and as a lawyer are entangled -- I'm confused about what to do and that's why I came here.

 

You are right, I don't want to drag this out for years. That's part of the problem, although I sure didn't put that in my posts.

 

I don't want this to be punishment, per se. I do not feel angry at DS1, although I sure did when I first saw DS2's mouth. I felt like I was being split in two for a couple of minutes -- half of me was horrified by what happened to DS2, and the other half was very angry at DS1.

 

DS2 went straight to his room after DH & I started taking care of DS2. After about 20 minutes, I left DH in charge of DS2 and went to comfort DS1, so he never saw that I was angry at first. Believe me, he needed to be comforted and reassured, not castigated. His brother, DS3, comforted him before I got there, which was a side of him I'd not seen before.

 

What I *want* to do is to wrap this up and not consider penance, figuring that DS1 has to watch DS2 go through everything, and deal with his own remorse.

 

But is this the easy way out? Would responsible, caring parents do more?

 

I'd planned for us all to do community service when the kids are old enough for that (I've checked in the past, and the organizations would not take them even if I supervised them).

 

Maybe I should still do that, but separate it from this?

 

I have a tendency to mollycoddle my kids. Where they are concerned, I can be a world-class wimp according to some other, more strict, mothers I know.

 

For instance, when they dug a hole in the back yard, other mothers around here were horrified. I gave them shovels and buckets and they made a huge mud hole (9' in diameter). If it didn't rain for awhile, I let them use the hose to fill the hole. Their fun was more important to me than the yard, which I figured could be re-seeded someday.

 

One time when the yard man came to do spring clean-up, they were appalled that he was raking the leaves, and they moved a huge pile of them into the den to save them. I didn't get mad about stuff like that because they were little kids and I figured these kinds of things were one-shot deals and if I told them not to do it again, they wouldn't. And they didn't.

 

But now they are teenagers and I'm on new ground. In 4 years, they will be 18, legally they will adults!!!! Maybe I should consider this incident to be a one-shot deal, too? Or are they too old for that?

 

Wow, I really think you're taking this to a whole different level than the actual incident that occurred.

 

Perhaps your familiarity with criminals, criminal intent and the legal system have colored your view of this situation.

[PinkInTheBlue]

My opinion is mostly based on your second post. Your ideas are big and will make a lasting impression but his response to the community service almost REQUIRE you to do something along these lines. This service could positively impact him the rest of his life. If doing this service brings back up to him what happened each time, good. He'll never forget it and he'll be much more likely than all of us to remember it more during times when his anger flares . :)

[PariSarah]

The community service will be very eye-opening for him--letting him see people who are really hurting, and who might be really suffering the consequences of bad behavior. It will help him put his own actions in a broader context. I'd venture to say that simply the act of getting out there and seeing people who are worse off than he is will do a lot for his emotional maturity.

 

If you're doing it with him, all the better--it'll give the two of you something to talk about, something where you're not necessarily "in charge" of him. It'll be a wonderful relationship-building thing for you both.

 

Ideally, his service will stop being about "punishment" or "the crime" pretty quickly. To that end, I would set up a minimum number of hours now, rather than "pay as you go." It'll make the transition from "something I'm doing because I'm in trouble" to "something I'm doing because there's a whole wide world out there and I can help people in it" happen more quickly, I suspect.

 

And if there's any way you could "invite" the wronged brother along, that would make things even happier. After you've been doing this for a few months, when it's stopped being about the crime and started being something important and grown-up that you and he do together, the wronged brother might want to be a part of it.

 

I'm sorry you've had to go through all this--it's a shame that a normal, everyday impulse had such "grown-up" consequences. But that's part of being a teenager, isn't it? All of a sudden, you can get into a whole lot more trouble a whole lot faster than you imagined.

 

If you can manage to work this incident in to any and all future conversations about sex, that would be a good, good thing.

[RoughCollie]

One more thing. The pillow fight was engaged in by all 4 children and they purposely did it in the *dark* to make it more "fun". DD left in the middle of it and came down to the den to read, but never mentioned it to DH and me.

[bkpan]

When I read your original post my first thought was how wise, just, and merciful your reaction was. Good job mom!

 

Your ds is young, but old enough to understand that his lack of self-control has caused serious bodily harm to his brother and a huge financial burden for you. I would take his actions VERY seriously! Not in an attempt to weigh him down in guilt, but with the intent to save him from an adult life of either unhealthy guilt or possibly lack of a healthy sense of responsibility for his actions. Your ds should know on some level how much this is costing his family. The idea of working for the family or the community to "pay back" some of that cost is a just response. It is real, and ideally would help to unburden his conscience.

 

However, I would perhaps look into a sustained, longer-term opportunity. Perhaps, full-time for the summer? He is certainly old enough to work full-time hours and I would look for something physical if possible, as another poster mentioned. To give him insight into others' needs and a sense of accomplishment perhaps. I'm not sure what that would be off the top of my head, but I would spend time looking WITH him to find something that would take the entire summer of full-time, hard, physical work. He is not that far from manhood.

 

The other thing that caught my attention was why all the secrecy?? That, as well, it seems to me would be a natural consequence of your ds's actions. I would encourage my other ds to take the high road, and forgive his brother, but I would not protect said brother from possible other community reactions. Just my thoughts.

 

P.S. I was doing this while listening to ds do his math facts, so forgive me if it is disorganized, lol,. I mainly wanted to make the point that I disagree with most of the posters and think that your reaction is right on!!

 

Kim in TN (used to be in NV)

[PariSarah]

All this legal talk is part and parcel of life in our family, and I realize that it isn't in most families.

 

I'm am giggling out loud, right now, in the library. Snickering, even.

 

You should hear the way dh and I talk to dc, or how we "fight" with each other. You wouldn't. ever. believe it. Theologians should never be allowed to get married to and reproduce with each other.

 

Anyway, I understand completely. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. My mom was a nurse and my dad a cop. Their parenting was freighted with their on-the-job experiences, too. It was good for us.

[Mrs. H.]

We do the legal talk as well. Dh is an attorney, and when there is a multi-child altercation we often hold "court" in the living room, listening to each child's side, asking questions, and weighing the evidence before we pass "judgement and sentencing" (who gets what punishment and for how long). Dh actually enjoys this a little too much, lol.

[katilac]

Have you asked your son how he thinks he can make it right? I'd also ask the 'victim' for his input. I wouldn't think in terms of things like doing his chores, but rather things directly related to the incident. Can he amuse his brother when he's recovering from dental procedures? Lend him a favorite book/game?

 

It's not right for your ds to rationalize his actions, but I'm sure he was shot through with guilt, fear and horror at what his actions resulted in. I would want to address that, but I'd rather do that in the context of family/parenting, rather than community service.

 

Your son has expressed a fear that other kids will blame him and hate him for what he has done. Multiply that fear a thousand times to know what he is worried about on the home front from you and his brother, even if you have told him that no one hates him and that he's not a bad person. He will probably need to hear that more than once.

 

If he's open to an honest conversation, I'd discuss not cheapening his regret with rationalizations. If he's not, I'd tell him to listen without talking, and just tell him your thoughts on the matter (prefaced with 'no one hates you!') and that you won't bring it up again, but you don't want to hear excuses and you hope that one day his heart follows.

 

Community service? It's great, as a learning experience; not so great as a punishment, imo. More so, I think dragging it out over months could have a negative effect on him, and on family relations in general.

 

I oversaw many teens doing community service when I worked for a non-profit. Hundreds of them. I never, ever saw someone's heart changed by forced community service. The kids who were sorry for what they had done walked in sorry; the kids who were unrepentant remained so. I would indeed separate community service from this incident.

 

Your ds did a stupid, stupid thing that had horrifying consequences. He cannot 'make it right' as he would a simpler wrong. I would go for immediate, quick consequences for this, and address any underlying concerns with a more long-term plan that isn't directly related to this.

[LizzyBee]

Not related to your actual question, but most of the health insurance policies I've had will pay for dental work caused by an accident. If you haven't already checked into that, you might consider it. Even if your medical insurance will only pay for certain procedures but not others, I'm sure any amount will help.

[SparrowsNest]

I have a 13.5 year old ds, and we are working on similar issues of appropriate/inappropriate interactions with his younger brother. While it's true that they don't know their own strength, they absolutely *have* to learn that there are limits.

 

For a big offense such as this, we try to go with accountability, repentance, forgiveness, and punishment/reparation. While some have suggested that this situation can be left to lie at the forgiveness stage, I think punishment and reparation are not a bad idea. Our actions have real-life consequences, even consequences we did not intend. When your son chose, in the heat of anger, to pick up a doll's bed and throw it AT your other son, he (in my view) morally obligated himself to fall-out from the consequences that would result from that choice. If he broke the bed, he would have to replace it. If he hurt his brother, he would have to make that right. In this case, the damage to his brother was quite severe, and the cost to your family quite high. I would probably tie the length of his reparations to the length of his brother's dental work.

 

I am always mindful of the fact that I am raising someone's husband and someone's father. I do not want to raise men who say "I was angry and so I _____, and I didn't mean for ______ to happen so it's really not my fault." At some point, they have to have 100% control of their anger, aggression, and impulsivity. Violent acting out is never, never, never acceptable. If we don't teach our sons this when they are young, how will they hold themselves to this standard as husbands and fathers?

[nmoira]

 

I would have him do the community service--not because of the bell-throwing, but because of his bad attitude about helping others. I'd make it a family affair, though, and not used as a punishment but instead as a teaching tool.

I agree.