If you spank, what do you do if it doesn't work?

[melissel]

I'm not asking for debating purposes, purely for my own personal knowledge. Several people have mentioned that they have spanked repeatedly for this or that, and that the child kept doing whatever it was they were spanked for. If spanking doesn't solve the problem, what's the next step? (I really am asking out of curiosity. I was spanked a few times as a child, in anger, never as a calm, calculated form of discipline, so I really have no idea.)

 

TIA!

[Renee in NC]

I guess I am not sure what you mean. Are people saying they are spanking for a particular behavior every time and it doesn't go away? After how long? What kind of behaviors? I do spank my dc at times, but not for particular behaviors necessarily.

[melissel]

I guess I am not sure what you mean. Are people saying they are spanking for a particular behavior every time and it doesn't go away? After how long? What kind of behaviors? I do spank my dc at times, but not for particular behaviors necessarily.

 

Well, I didn't want to go into any real details because I didn't want anyone to feel picked on (and I wasn't really thinking specifically). I just know I've read threads here--some recent, some not--where people have posted in frustration over a behavior or phase, and they've mentioned that they've spanked the child per their standard discipline policy and the behavior was still happening. Is that any clearer? (Probably not!) I guess you could use my DD3 as an example. Say you have a child who bites or pinches, and you spank for each infraction, but the child still bites or pinches when angry. What's the next step, since the spanking doesn't seem to be halting the behavior?

[I.Dup.]

I'm no parenting expert as my oldest is only 7, but I really believe when any kind of disciplinary measures fail, it's because the parents are not being completely consistent with it. It's hard to be consistent with discipline, but very necessary. If the parents are 100% consistent and win each time they need to win, the child will eventually figure it out, as long as they have any brains at all.

[Tree House Academy]

Spanking is actutally something that we do after other methods fail, so I am not sure I can answer your question. For instance, my 5 year old this morning decided to slap me while we were playing. I immediately told him that it is not okay to slap people and sent him to sit on his bed for 5 minutes. He went straight to the bed and sat. When he came back, we chatted about why you don't hit, even in play and that was that. Now, had he not sat on his bed or had he hit me again or in some other way escalated the situation, then perhaps he would have been spanked eventually. The only thing we will spank for immediately is if one brother hurts the other to the point where a mark was left or there is blood. And, I have to say, that whether it is the spanking, the threat of spanking, or just not wanting to badly hurt each other, that is one thing my kids RARELY ever do.

 

I guess what I am saying is that, while I am not "against" spanking, it is not our primary method of discipline by any means.

[abbeyej]

Well, as I've said before, spanking would not typically be a first reaction for me. But if I had gotten to spanking, and it clearly wasn't working (whether always, for a particular child, or simply for a particular behavior), then we would do something else. Obviously at that point, we'd have been discussing a lot already, so more discussion wouldn't likely be helpful either. Alternatives might be separation from the family (sitting on the steps, able to see but not participate in family life, or confined to bed in the child's room), chores (particularly any that might relate to the behavior I was trying to curtail), writing a letter of apology (and proof-reading and correcting the letter), physical activity (for bad attitude, my son has been sentenced to run laps around the house, and it has nearly always worked), even copying lines, lol! (On the other hand, for most behaviors, those responses would come before spanking anyway...)

 

I guess I don't know why one would continue to spank for an ongoing behavior, if spanking weren't obviously making some dent in the behavior any more than one would continue any other form of discipline or re-direction that obviously wasn't working.

 

I generally try to make the punishment fit the crime, and except for the occasional recalcitrant two-year-old, I haven't had much problem with continued misbehavior in one particular direction. Except for things like sibling pestering, perhaps, and that's the sort of thing where we just try to work on the long-term vision of learning to care for each other and put other's needs in front of our own. So I don't "punish" as much as separate, or enforce team work, or require kids to serve each other or point out the things they love about their sibling, etc, in order to give them a chance to grow closer.

 

It sure seems like you think anyone who would ever spank just whacks their kids around for anything and everything... I promise that isn't the case. :)

[Joanne]

I'm no parenting expert as my oldest is only 7, but I really believe when any kind of disciplinary measures fail, it's because the parents are not being completely consistent with it. It's hard to be consistent with discipline, but very necessary. If the parents are 100% consistent and win each time they need to win, the child will eventually figure it out, as long as they have any brains at all.

 

Respectfully, I don't believe it's that simple. I do agree kids (and parents, families, neighbors, teachers...) Benefit when parents are consistent with quality discipline, I no longer believe it's necessarily absent when a child is challenging. There exists too many anecdotal incidences with a wide variety of personalty, temperment and situations. I don't believe much can be assumed by the presence or absence of particular discipline tools in any particular family.

 

I also don't think od parenting and discipline situations as "win" or "lose".

 

OP, do you want advice on a biting and pinching 3 year old?

 

To answer the OP's question, I imagine good parents who include spanking move onto something else. IMO, some parents have adopted a paradigm that is so punishment and or spanking centered that the punishment increases in frequency or intensity.

[Dobela]

We spank, but as the last step in the progression of discipline. We begin with other techniques like redirection, time out, and so on. Now that my son is 9, we rarely consider spanking him though. He reponds much better to loss of priviledges and the like.

[melissel]

It sure seems like you think anyone who would ever spank just whacks their kids around for anything and everything... I promise that isn't the case. :)

 

Actually, I don't think that, which is why I'm asking. I would imagine that people who whack their kids around for anything and everything wind up with kids who just try harder to hide what they do, not stop the offending behavior.

 

To use my example again, when we were going through the hitting/pinching/biting phase with DD3 and I posted here for advice, I was told to spank her each and every time she did it (we had already tried several other methods of discipline). I'm wondering what the advice would be if, even though I spanked her each and every time, she continued the behavior. If you're saying that your children never continued an offending behavior after the ultimate discipline of a spanking, then I guess that's my answer. Is that generally the case?

[melissel]

OP, do you want advice on a biting and pinching 3 year old?

 

Thanks Joanne, I'm happy to say that we're through that phase now. I don't believe spanking would have ended it, actually, though I'll admit to being tempted!!! I was really trying to find an example that didn't put a poster here on the spot.

[Dobela]

I never spanked my children for hitting other children or me. That seemed to be contridictory. I don't know what others do/did but for us when biting, pinching, hitting is an issue I look to see what is behind the problem (fatigue, teasing, or something else) and then tried to eliminate those triggers. If it was just "plain meanness" as my grandma would say,the chld had to sit near me for an extended time and not be allowed to play with other children. Or we might leave the park etc.

[Impish]

Well, if spanking doesn't work, we just hang 'em by their heels in the yard, and use 'em as a human pinata...see if candy flies outta their butt after so many whacks with a stick.

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[Jayne J]

I think, as a parent of three who are all very very different in their reactions to discipline, that an effective parent who finds that spanking is not working gets creative. (Some parents do continue to spank each time and nothing ever changes)

I have a ds6, dd4 and dd1. In our family dd1 doesn't get "disciplined" per se. So that leaves ds and dd#1. We started out firm believers in spanking for both children, but have since learned that it was far more effective to tailor our discipline to each child. Ds will laugh at a spanking, but if we take the time to discuss his offenses with him and really show him how his actions were wrong, he will tear up and apologise. Dd#1 is a bit of a rebel, who likes to stir the pot a bit and spankings never changed that. We find she is best disciplined by a little time to herself, without an audience to perform for. We have nothing against spanking as such , but have found it to be ineffective for our family. I suspect that families who find the same is true with their children eventually turn to more creative/tailored discipline.

The thing is, if spanking isn't working, your options are to continue an ineffective punishment, escalate the spankings, which is dangerous, or find another punishment that is effective. Children vary and so (IMHO) should their disciplines.

[Haiku]

If the parents are 100% consistent and win each time they need to win, the child will eventually figure it out, as long as they have any brains at all.

 

I used to believe that was true, and then I was blessed with my now-seven year old. Her interest lies mainly in winning, so she will go to the mat over just about anything. Consistency doesn't phase her. She is generally a well-behaved kid, but we have had a few issues that we had difficulty resolving, and complete consistency wasn't the key to resolving it.

 

Some kids just have the type of personality that makes them rise to the challenge rather than adapting their behavior.

 

As regards the OP's question, I think that it belies an attitude that spanking is somehow the be-all, end-all, end-of-the-road, saved-for-last discipline method, as in, "We tried everything else and nothing worked, so we had to *gasp of horror* spank him." We're not really spankers, so I can't speak form experience, but I would imagine that if spanking didn't work, parents would try something else, like grounding, tomato staking, time-out, etc. Or, even better, trying to change the way they relate to the child about the issue. I know that, with three kids, sometimes the main "problem" has been my attitude toward the issue.

 

Tara

[Dooley]

Melissel, I see your children are young, so the things we resorted to with our oldest is many, many years off for you, if ever. I posted what we ended up doing with her on the other thread, I think you might have read it, as you posted after me....

 

As I mentioned, my youngest three - no problem - the oldest, well, she was ready for a fight by the time she was two. My mind is foggy now, as to how we got through those years, but the results were....we did not fix a problem; we never changed a behavior. I think its really a heart issue. Is the problem fixed now? Well, she is a bit too old to spank - she just graduated from HS. She is still very, very strong willed, but she has told me many times, she does want me to be pleased with her, so apparently, I still have a place in her heart, after all the tough years. YIPPEE!!

 

M - I cant say there is any ONE right answer for anyone. Its finding what will work for that particular child. Some do need a heavier hand than others.

 

OHHH - just remembered a great book - Hold Onto Your Kids - its about always being mindful of being that person in your childs life to whom he/she looks to for directions and love. I dont know if this book would have enabled us to get through our oldest kids childhood any better (probably not....it was T.O.U.G.H.) , but it sure gave me insight to the difficult child.

[melissel]

As regards the OP's question, I think that it belies an attitude that spanking is somehow the be-all, end-all, end-of-the-road, saved-for-last discipline method...

 

Well, yes, actually, since that's what a lot of people on the other thread (and TreeHouse Academy upthread here) implied--that spanking is not their first, or second, or third, or go-to form of discipline. That lead me to believe that those who choose to spank as a calm, collected form of discipline must consider it the "big guns," so to speak. So this makes me wonder what happens when the big guns don't have the intended effect, since I've seen here that at least a few people have spanked for a behavior and the behavior doesn't end.

 

I don't have some nefarious ulterior motive here. I'm gathering information from parents who parent differently than I do. Obviously, I was the most outspokenly opposed poster on the other thread, and it was implied that I don't understand why people would choose to spank. It's true. I do not. So I'm trying to understand how it works and what the mindset is.

 

Melissel, I see your children are young, so the things we resorted to with our oldest is many, many years off for you, if ever. I posted what we ended up doing with her on the other thread, I think you might have read it, as you posted after me....

 

As I mentioned, my youngest three - no problem - the oldest, well, she was ready for a fight by the time she was two. My mind is foggy now, as to how we got through those years, but the results were....we did not fix a problem; we never changed a behavior. I think its really a heart issue. Is the problem fixed now? Well, she is a bit too old to spank - she just graduated from HS. She is still very, very strong willed, but she has told me many times, she does want me to be pleased with her, so apparently, I still have a place in her heart, after all the tough years. YIPPEE!!

 

M - I cant say there is any ONE right answer for anyone. Its finding what will work for that particular child. Some do need a heavier hand than others.

 

OHHH - just remembered a great book - Hold Onto Your Kids - its about always being mindful of being that person in your childs life to whom he/she looks to for directions and love. I dont know if this book would have enabled us to get through our oldest kids childhood any better (probably not....it was T.O.U.G.H.) , but it sure gave me insight to the difficult child.

 

Dooley, you are very kind. I don't recall what you said, but I'll go back and look. ITA with you that it's a heart issue though. My DD3 is my strong-willed kid. We had the most difficulties with her (so far!) from 1 1/2 to 3 (a few months in), when she seemed to be ruled purely by her own emotions and needs. Unlike her sister, she had no desire or ability to consider anyone else in her daily life. When she was angry or in need in any way, she struck out. We've finally come through that, for the most part, and she now shows a real acknowledgment of other people's needs and feelings. She still has her moments, and I don't kid myself that life with her is going to be easy, but we've made some progress!!!

 

Thanks for the book recommendation. I've heard great things about it, and I've been trying to get it via Paperbackswap for awhile now. Our library system doesn't have it, but it just occurred to me that it would probably have been faster to request that they order it! Thanks again :D

[Karenciavo]

Well, yes, actually, since that's what a lot of people on the other thread (and TreeHouse Academy upthread here) implied--that spanking is not their first, or second, or third, or go-to form of discipline. That lead me to believe that those who choose to spank as a calm, collected form of discipline must consider it the "big guns," so to speak. So this makes me wonder what happens when the big guns don't have the intended effect, since I've seen here that at least a few people have spanked for a behavior and the behavior doesn't end.

 

Three boys, the big guns have always worked. That doesn't mean sometime down the road the child doesn't have to be disciplined for the same offense.

[HeatherLynn]

I have four children. I do not know what to do if spanking doesn't work, because it ALWAYS works. We don't have to spank very often in our home as other methods work first. When all measures are exhausted and there is a spanking, we don;t have to re-visit the subject.

[Pamela H in Texas]

To use my example again, when we were going through the hitting/pinching/biting phase with DD3 and I posted here for advice, I was told to spank her each and every time she did it (we had already tried several other methods of discipline). I'm wondering what the advice would be if, even though I spanked her each and every time, she continued the behavior. If you're saying that your children never continued an offending behavior after the ultimate discipline of a spanking, then I guess that's my answer. Is that generally the case?

 

IME, the great majority continue to do it and then claim it worked when 8 months later that child finally quits the behavior.

 

Some will also add in some better discipline in order to prevent or redirect but will spank when it happens.

 

Very few seem to say, "okay, I've tried spanking and it's been two weeks of spanking him twice a day for that; I need to go another direction." Either their discipline of choice for the situation or their last resort isn't working. It's time for something else. ANY time a parent is punishing even semi-regularly, they really SHOULD be looking for alternative discipline which will be EFFECTIVE.

 

What *I* would like to see more parents do is realize that many behaviors do take time whether you spank or not, so why spank? Why not find the other things you're going to do in order to prevent or redirect and drop the spanking since it's not adding do the solution. In time, teaching kiddo to say what he is feeling, teaching him problem solving skills, supervising, extinguishing behavior by not allowing it to get that far, etc will work. It will take the amount of time it takes for that child, whether 3 episodes or 3 years, regardless, so WHY add spanking to the mix for those things?

 

Biting, pinching, hitting is one of these behaviors. It is done for one of a few specific reasons. It is a wise parent that chooses to evaluate and find out which reason it is and to address that. Also, it makes sense to supervise more carefully not allowing the behavior to occur as the less it happens the less it WILL happen (kinda like puppy accidents. The more times they get it right, the more times they WILL get it right). And of course, we give kids the tools and skills necessary so they don't feel the need to turn to those behaviors. But in the end, a child's propensity for those behaviors is developmental so the time it takes to totally outgrow the time there is a chance for it to happen is not going to be changed by punishment.

 

For example, my own son started headbanging and biting at age 4months. These were very troubling behaviors for us, as one can imagine. My son didn't developmentally outgrow this til well over 4years old. That most certainly did NOT mean that we allowed him to hurt himself and others all that time. We did EVERYTHING I said above including not letting it get to the point that he had the experience of doing it. At some point, he had the skills and tools as well as the neurological development to no longer do it or consider doing it.

 

BTW, and when the issue is bioneurological/sensory related, it is a very poor idea to spank for it. The child is getting his needs met both by completing the act AND by the spanking. There are MANY kids that seem to be "asking for" a spanking. It's because they ARE. They have learned (maybe not consciously though I wouldn't doubt that some do learn consciously also!) that it "resets" their system. They push and push til the parent meets that need. Then the parent wonders why the 10 or 12 or 16yo is doing SUCH inappropriate things in order to get physical punishment, "for the thrill," even when it hurts, etc. Well, mom and dad fed into that by not helping the child meet those needs appropriately and by meeting them inappropriately.

 

Of course, that isn't all children and not always does it last til they are preteens or teens, but I'm sure honest people can think of several cases they know of in life where is true, at least for preschoolers they know. It is more likely to be the case for the under 6 crowd. If parents realized it, would they be feeding into it? or meeting their children's needs more appropriately so that spanking and other punishments occured less often.

 

Anyway, I don't mean to ramble on.

 

Just in case it has been unclear in the last few threads, I don't think anything bad at all towards most spankers. Some of the best parents I have known have used it a few times and will defend their use of it. NEVER have I known of a situation where whether someone spanked or not was THE issue that decided whether they were effective parenting or not. No parent is good BECAUSE they spank and no parent is good BECAUSE they don't.

 

I simply want to challenge parents to continue evaluating their parenting and getting better and better regardless of what smaller choices we make.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Three boys, the big guns have always worked. That doesn't mean sometime down the road the child doesn't have to be disciplined for the same offense.

 

This is another consideration....what "works/worked" means and looks like.

[Old Dominion Heather]

This is another consideration....what "works/worked" means and looks like.

 

Like someone else here, I also have three boys. They are 10, 7, and nearly 4. Spankings are extremely rare here, but they do happen from time to time. The 10 year old hasn't been spanked in years, the 7yo hasn't in quite a while, and the 4yo occasionally gets a swat.

 

When we spank for a grievous offense, such as running into the street, or to use and actual example, riding a new bike out into the street without looking and nearly getting hit by a car, the offender was given the choice of loss of bike for a set period of time, or spanking. He chose spanking. End of problem. (I will say that we have pretty established guidelines over what type of offense can get you spanked. Endangering your own life or someone else's is one of them.)

 

If a child ran out into the road, and I spanked him and he did it again the next day, he would have to hold my hand outside until he gained the maturity not to run into the street, until he could be trusted. Loss of a major privilege always comes as the next step for us.

 

Interestingly, my children ALWAYS choose the spanking over loss of privilege. ALWAYS. And we always give them the choice, so they must not mind the spanking too much... but having to do further discipline after a spanking is quite rare.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Interestingly, my children ALWAYS choose the spanking over loss of privilege. ALWAYS. And we always give them the choice, so they must not mind the spanking too much...

 

Oh, I wouldn't doubt that. A LOT of people would take something quick and over-with over real consequences. I just don't think you're doing them any favor by letting them get off easy in those sorts of situations. Now, if your kids are pretty easy, you're probably not causing any real harm long term. No doubt you use plenty of good discipline otherwise anyway. But for a more challenging kiddo, letting them off with a quick spanking (even if it's "robust" and "definitely hurts") or other punishment, could really be problematic.

[Old Dominion Heather]

A LOT of people would take something quick and over-with over real consequences. I just don't think you're doing them any favor by letting them get off easy in those sorts of situations. Now, if your kids are pretty easy, you're probably not causing any real harm long term. No doubt you use plenty of good discipline otherwise anyway. But for a more challenging kiddo, letting them off with a quick spanking (even if it's "robust" and "definitely hurts") or other punishment, could really be problematic.

 

Pamela, I REALLY hope that you are not trying to be as condescending towards those who disagree with you as you are coming off here. Your judgment of whether or not I am "causing them real harm" is puzzling. Are you qualified to assess that?

 

You said: A LOT of people would take something quick and over-with over real consequences. I just don't think you're doing them any favor by letting them get off easy in those sorts of situations.

 

Would you prefer I let them get hit by the car? After all, that is a real-life consequence. If I ride my bike out into a street, no one will take the bike away from me, that isn't a real consequence. Physical pain is very likely to happen, though.

 

How are they "getting off easy" if the lesson is learned? If we have an infraction and we just had to discuss, with no punishment involved, that wouldn't be getting off easy. If they get the lesson with the quick and easy route, then lesson learned. Move on.

 

As a parent, my goal is to teach, to get the point across. I want to accomplish that goal in the easiest way possible. Why would we want to do it the hardest way possible? It doesn't make sense. My children would consider it double jeopardy.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Old Dominion Heather

[Dirtroad]

Honestly, it always works... if handled as discipline with correction, love, instruction, and guidance. It also doesn't happen often for the same reasons. We also never use our hand. They teach you not to strike an animal with your hand in obedience training b/c it teaches to fear the hand & it should not be feared. We use a small spoon or a paddle.

 

I would also say that if the behavior continues, the situation (spanking) is not being handled properly OR you have a very strong willed child... very determined. I would recommend they never spank in anger or frustration... but send child to wait... cool off... go to a private area like bathroom (NOT their bedroom) (somewhere less refuge or personal).... speak to them about the offense.... spank & listen for repentance/confession.... allow child time to compose.... comfort & discuss discipline, love, and the offense again. All in patience, love, and for correction/teaching... not anger or frustration!

 

If this is not effective, you may need to be a bit stronger (no quilted paddle). If child continues in defiance or behavior, turn up the discipline to SEVERE restrictions. The defiance must be broken... not the will (for those who always bring that up). You can remove everything from the bedroom except a few essentials and they can earn it back. You can stop all phone calls, visitors, or trips. On & on. What do they really like to do... restrict this until the repentance comes!

 

As for a spanking being better than losing a bike (or other restriction)... I think it makes perfect sense. They know what they did was wrong & it has consequences. A spanking is over quickly & they can get back on the back. They can be careful (immediately) to avoid the dangerous circumstance... but THEY HAVE THE BIKE BACK! To lose the bike for a week or 2 is devastating! What will they do? All their friends have one... it is their new one.... they love that bike & hate sitting on the steps... etc.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Dirtroad

[Ginevra]

I'm not asking for debating purposes, purely for my own personal knowledge. Several people have mentioned that they have spanked repeatedly for this or that, and that the child kept doing whatever it was they were spanked for. If spanking doesn't solve the problem, what's the next step? (I really am asking out of curiosity. I was spanked a few times as a child, in anger, never as a calm, calculated form of discipline, so I really have no idea.)

 

 

I spanked for a period of time, as I mentioned in the other threads; it was with my youngest. He was an extremely difficult toddler. For myself, the reason I came to the conclusion that spanking was not going to "work" was because his behavior was so out-of-bounds, so often and a spanking in my eyes (open swat on the clothed behind) phased him not at all. I could see readily that *if* there was ever going to be a way that spanking would "work", it would have to be at an abusive level. It would have to hurt so bad and be happening so frequently that he lived in fear of disobeying. This is simply not the dynamic that I wanted to set up.

 

There was no easy plan b. Even time out was not really a route we could go, (and I tried) because it meant that every 8-15 minutes, he was getting put in time out. I had to be "on" him constantly and that was a negative dynamic, too.

 

The main thing that helped was time and being able to reframe his behavior. This was just not the kid who was going to sit quiety and play with puzzles for a half an hour, like my other two had done. I had to proactively "fill his tank" of attention by sitting on the floor playing trains for a while before I went on to someone or something else...and I didn't get a lot of mileage for the fillup. He is still high maintenence, but he is loads better than he was at 2 and 3.

 

I want to have strong relationships with my kids, not just have them obey my commands. Spanking was not going to get me where I was trying to go, even if it would have been possible to spank a given aggravating behavior away.

[Renee in NC]

Well, yes, actually, since that's what a lot of people on the other thread (and TreeHouse Academy upthread here) implied--that spanking is not their first, or second, or third, or go-to form of discipline. That lead me to believe that those who choose to spank as a calm, collected form of discipline must consider it the "big guns," so to speak. So this makes me wonder what happens when the big guns don't have the intended effect, since I've seen here that at least a few people have spanked for a behavior and the behavior doesn't end.

 

 

 

I think I understand now. I only spank for defiance, disrespect, and danger (and that only when they are very small.) So, in your example, I would not spank because that is a childish behavior, not defiance.

[leaird]

We have spanked our kids in the past, but rarely do so anymore. I find that other forms of discipline seem to work better. The key is to find what really matters to the child. Every child is different. For my oldest daughter, taking away the telephone or grounding her usually works. She is very social and thrives on time spent with friends. For my son, all I have to do is take away the computer.

 

Sometimes we get creative. My daughter, who can't stand the sight of raw meat (yet eats meat for dinner just fine), had to wrap a huge plate of raw hamburger patties as a punishment. She has yet to repeat the behavior that caused her to receive that punishment. lol

[Lovedtodeath]

I'm not asking for debating purposes, purely for my own personal knowledge. Several people have mentioned that they have spanked repeatedly for this or that, and that the child kept doing whatever it was they were spanked for. If spanking doesn't solve the problem, what's the next step? (I really am asking out of curiosity. I was spanked a few times as a child, in anger, never as a calm, calculated form of discipline, so I really have no idea.)

 

TIA!

I assume that if a consistent harsh-enough punishment does not work, then the child is being asked to do/not do something that is not developementally appropriate or possible for them.

 

For example, sometimes as a reaction to stimulation, my DD cannot stop crying and screaming. No matter what I do to her, it is not going to stop the behavior.

 

My DS is 2 years old. If I spank him for peeing his pants, he is still going to do it.

 

At times children need our help more than they need spankings. For example, DD cannot stop screaming, so we try hugging her or modeling deep breathing and tapping for her. We remove her from a stressful situation... yada yada... all much more likely to stop the screaming than punishing her for it.

[Tree House Academy]

If you're saying that your children never continued an offending behavior after the ultimate discipline of a spanking, then I guess that's my answer. Is that generally the case?

 

LOL. Nope. Spanking in our house is like anything else...sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. The same can be said here for time outs, cool down time, taking away toys, grounding, and on and on. This is especially true for my older son who is very hard to parent at times. My reactions to him are constantly changing because discipline techniques/tactics tend to work for him for a bit and then lose their luster. The kid can change most punishments into "oh well...whatever" pretty fast. Unfortunately.

 

The one thing I have yet to try with him is taking away everything he owns other than his bed and letting him earn it back pne thing at a time. That is just a bit more than I can bring myself to do. Otherwise, we have likely tried it all with this one child.

[Pamela H in Texas]

The kid can change most punishments into "oh well...whatever" pretty fast. Unfortunately.

 

Yeah, that is a kid that needs punishments to be almost completely (if not completely) eliminated from the parenting toolbox. Kids that are like that as preteens are at a huge risk as teens and young adults. As he pushes the limits now, you certainly don't want him doing that with adult relationships, adult punishment options (ummm, the law!), etc.

 

I know you're working on it Rebecca. It takes a good mom to learn to overhaul her parenting in order to help her child. I also love your candor and honesty in recent threads. You really are a great mom :)

[Reya]

It depends.

 

Sometimes, the kid is reacting by reflex, so it's a stimulus-response thing that has to be broken. I've made a kid who had a hitting problem--not mine--reenact the situation and then respond appropriately and have used lots of talking about stopping and thinking, etc.

 

Sometimes, spanking is used too much. It stops meaning anything.

 

Sometimes, the kid thinks the spanking is a joke--it doesn't hurt, and they know it's supposed to, so they "dare" the parent to spank them to silently mock him/her.

 

And sometimes, it's a non-spanking infraction. What do I mean by that? Well, it's something spanking doesn't work for, so it's clearly not appropriate. There are lots of other options.

[Reya]

Well, I didn't want to go into any real details because I didn't want anyone to feel picked on (and I wasn't really thinking specifically). I just know I've read threads here--some recent, some not--where people have posted in frustration over a behavior or phase, and they've mentioned that they've spanked the child per their standard discipline policy and the behavior was still happening. Is that any clearer? (Probably not!) I guess you could use my DD3 as an example. Say you have a child who bites or pinches, and you spank for each infraction, but the child still bites or pinches when angry. What's the next step, since the spanking doesn't seem to be halting the behavior?

 

The child may be hitting because he's not getting enough positive attention, and negative attention's better than none.

 

This is amazingly common.

 

I'd say hug the kid a whole lot more, and snuggle them more.

 

My DS is a HUGE snuggler. He still needed a half hour of snuggles every morning at 5. Other kids aren't. So "enough" is enough for the kid.

[Kathy in MD]

I'm not asking for debating purposes, purely for my own personal knowledge. Several people have mentioned that they have spanked repeatedly for this or that, and that the child kept doing whatever it was they were spanked for. If spanking doesn't solve the problem, what's the next step? (I really am asking out of curiosity. I was spanked a few times as a child, in anger, never as a calm, calculated form of discipline, so I really have no idea.)

 

TIA!

 

My ds is one who resists punishment of any kind. It can be natural cosequences, removing items, spanking, even grounding for life, but he will not cave! For him it's strictly a win-lose proposition and he refuses to let anyone see that the punishment might affect him. I've seen him let the grounding go upto a month in length, but he won't apologize or do what he's supposed to do. He refuses to "lose".

 

What works for him is praise for doing the right thing and lots of fun interaction. I find that it's hard to remember to praise a child for *not* biting, or yelling or.......... (Praise for their doing something positive like picking up is easier). But this is what is needed with my ds's temperment. Catch him doing something right, or at least not anti-social, and comment on how pleasant things are. He will try his best to recreate it.

 

Then remember the fun interaction. By which I mean, fun for the child, not fun for the adult. It does't have to be constant, even just a half hour once a week will pay off big dividends IF you focus on that one child. I have an only child, and much of my life and time is focused on him. But he doesn't always see it like that, because it's school work, or reading to him (past LD's make him dislike that), teaching him about house work or........ He wants to play games I hate or do other things I don't like. But this is what he and many other dc need for just a little bit of time each week.

[lionfamily1999]

Normally, spanking is a last resort in our house. However, we have faced things where we resorted to a spanking and it did not work. Then, we have to get more creative, or more consistent.

 

For instance, older ds was a biter. I tried time-outs, removing him from situations and finally, spanking. At first, spanking did not work. We tried soap (bite this, then), did not work. We tried a lot of other things, nothing worked. Then, I told him, when you bite you will get a spanking immediately (normally, I'm all for waiting until everyone has calmed down). It took about a week, and probably seven to ten spankings, before he realized I was not joking. He stopped biting, for the most part, although we've had it rear its ugly head on occassion, now he might start, but he catches himself before the bite.

 

With dd, she's old enough to ground, with meaning, we don't spank anymore. Losing her tv, computer, game privledges will stop her from doing most everything.

 

Youngest ds, I've found, takes time-out much harder than either of my older dcs. Spankings, for him, are mostly ineffectual. Remove him from the group, force him to sit quietly, and he rethinks his actions pretty quick.

 

IOW, it hasn't been too often that spanking has not worked for one thing in particular, but I do have one dc where it does not compare to time-outs, one that is, imo, too old for them, and one for whom spanking is the final attempt for correction, and (for the most part) it has worked.

[Kathy in MD]

......BTW, and when the issue is bioneurological/sensory related, it is a very poor idea to spank for it. The child is getting his needs met both by completing the act AND by the spanking. There are MANY kids that seem to be "asking for" a spanking. It's because they ARE. They have learned (maybe not consciously though I wouldn't doubt that some do learn consciously also!) that it "resets" their system. They push and push til the parent meets that need. Then the parent wonders why the 10 or 12 or 16yo is doing SUCH inappropriate things in order to get physical punishment, "for the thrill," even when it hurts, etc. Well, mom and dad fed into that by not helping the child meet those needs appropriately and by meeting them inappropriately........

 

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

And it's not because I read it in a book, or even had the intellegence to figure it out on my own. Unfortunately,I learned it the hard way!

 

My ds did have neuro problems and would become hyper-frantic when he became over excited. One day as I tried to calm him enough to rest, I became frustrated and swatted. Instant calm and he could take his needed nap. So when he reached that frantic point again, the swat helped him regain control of himself. What a pity that I didn't substitute a hug instead. It would have satisfied ds's neuro cravings even better and had much better connotations for both of us as ds grew older. Not only that, but if he needed neuro calming, he could have asked me for a hug to help. Who ever heard of a child literally asking for a spanking? But they will through bad behavior and that sets a bad pattern.

 

BTW, since OT we now know what he needs, and he will ask for a hug. Not bad for a 15 yo.

[Joanne]

When we spank for a grievous offense, such as running into the street, or to use and actual example, riding a new bike out into the street without looking and nearly getting hit by a car, the offender was given the choice of loss of bike for a set period of time, or spanking. He chose spanking. End of problem. (I will say that we have pretty established guidelines over what type of offense can get you spanked. Endangering your own life or someone else's is one of them.)

 

I understand the desire for dramatic, quick and decisive action when it comes to safety issues. IMO, however, if you have a child where running into the street is an issue, supervision is really the only answer.

 

You can't spank a child enough to keep them safe. You can't spank them and then trust they willl stay out of the road; you still have to keep your eye out, to keep them close, to use your voice.

 

I guess what I am saying is that spanking in these circumstances won't make them more mature. ;)

[Joanne]

For instance, older ds was a biter. I tried time-outs, removing him from situations and finally, spanking. At first, spanking did not work. We tried soap (bite this, then), did not work. We tried a lot of other things, nothing worked. Then, I told him, when you bite you will get a spanking immediately (normally, I'm all for waiting until everyone has calmed down). It took about a week, and probably seven to ten spankings, before he realized I was not joking. He stopped biting, for the most part, although we've had it rear its ugly head on occassion, now he might start, but he catches himself before the bite.

 

Since biting (and other sensory/aggression issues) have been mentioned at least twice in this thread, I thought I'd throw this out as an option.

 

Many times, pinchers, hair pullers, biters and even hitters/pushers are sensory seeking kids. Their *body* seeks sensation and if they don't get it appropriately, they will find it inappropriately because their body drives them.

 

The idea is to proactively design your day to include sensory stimulation but not punishment (such as biting soap).

 

Pinchers can play with silly putty, jello, play doh, shaving cream, clay, homemade dough, etc.

 

Hair pullers can have a variety of dolls with hair, throw rugs, yarn, string, etc.

 

Oral seekers (biters) often decrease human biting when they have a variety of food: chewy, spicy, hot, cold. For example, bagels, fruit leather, beef jerky, soup, smoothies, ice. Using a straw is a great tool.

 

Hitters, rub up against people kids, etc do well with indoor obstacle courses that make them commando crawl on carpets, roll over cushions, move and manipulate large things. A blow up punching/tackle bag is great.

 

These proactive ideas might seem indirect but they more frequently than not have a direct and positive effect on the kids whose body craves sensation and I've nearly always seen dramatic improvement in human to human aggression when parents use these ideas routinely with their kids who need them.

[Laurie4b]

I'm no parenting expert as my oldest is only 7, but I really believe when any kind of disciplinary measures fail, it's because the parents are not being completely consistent with it. It's hard to be consistent with discipline, but very necessary. If the parents are 100% consistent and win each time they need to win, the child will eventually figure it out, as long as they have any brains at all.

 

Actually, that is not always true. And the failure of typically good discipline methods is often a red flag for special needs or just indicates that the parent is missing the point of the child's behavior. An example of point was is a child with sensory processing problems who is sensory-seeking. Their brain is not absorbing all the stimulation from a normally stimulating environment, so they seek out more. This often looks like misbehavior, but it can't be "disciplined out of them" because it is a need. Instead, what fixes the problem is increased stimulation in occupational therapy.

 

The second type of exception is when the parent is missing the point of a child's behavior. If, for instance, a child is desirous of the parent's attention and gets it in spades when acting up, but is ignored when not, they will keep acting up. The parents may be very consistent with discipline for the acting up--but if they are missing the point that their child needs more of them at other times, the discipline will be ineffective.

 

So when spanking, or any other form of discipline is not working, it's a good idea to think about what is motivating the behavior. Human beings, including children, can have complicated motivations, or there can be other kinds of needs that the parent lacks awareness of.

[Laurie4b]

Our kids are too old to spank now. We spanked sometimes when they were younger.

 

There is a danger in some books on parenting that suggest that if the behavior isn't responding to spanking, you keep at it--increasing either frequency or intensity. I think this kind of thinking has led many otherwise good parents into areas that could be abuse. (I'm not someone who thinks any form of physical punishment is always abuse.)

 

When spanking, or time out, or whatever you are using is not working, it's a sign that there is something about the situation that the parents do not understand. So the first step would be to step back and evaluate. Sometimes, there are undiagnosed special needs. Other times, the child is motivated in the behavior by something other than the obvious. Continuing something that isn't working---or worse, intensifying something that isn't working---prolongs the time you're not effectively addressing the behavior.

 

Parents may be able to evaluate on their own, and if they arrive at the correct understanding, they'll be able to figure out a discipline that will work. Other times, the fact that a behavior isn't responding to typical discipline methods can be a sign that it's time to seek professional help because there may be special needs.

[Ellie]

Often, children will need more than one reminder that they must obey their parents, which is what most misbehavior comes down to. I continue to spank (our spankings are short and to the point and over with), but look for additional ways to discuss and train and model what it is I expect them to do (or not to do).

[lionfamily1999]

Since biting (and other sensory/aggression issues) have been mentioned at least twice in this thread, I thought I'd throw this out as an option.

 

Many times, pinchers, hair pullers, biters and even hitters/pushers are sensory seeking kids. Their *body* seeks sensation and if they don't get it appropriately, they will find it inappropriately because their body drives them.

 

The idea is to proactively design your day to include sensory stimulation but not punishment (such as biting soap).

 

Pinchers can play with silly putty, jello, play doh, shaving cream, clay, homemade dough, etc.

 

Hair pullers can have a variety of dolls with hair, throw rugs, yarn, string, etc.

 

Oral seekers (biters) often decrease human biting when they have a variety of food: chewy, spicy, hot, cold. For example, bagels, fruit leather, beef jerky, soup, smoothies, ice. Using a straw is a great tool.

 

Hitters, rub up against people kids, etc do well with indoor obstacle courses that make them commando crawl on carpets, roll over cushions, move and manipulate large things. A blow up punching/tackle bag is great.

 

These proactive ideas might seem indirect but they more frequently than not have a direct and positive effect on the kids whose body craves sensation and I've nearly always seen dramatic improvement in human to human aggression when parents use these ideas routinely with their kids who need them.

Ds bit, because it hurt the person he was biting. IOW, dd doesn't want to share, ds bites, dd drops the toy. Ds doesn't want a bath, ds bites, bath is put off while Mom attempts to regain her composure. He bit, because it helped him get his way.

 

On biting, when dd was little and bit, my mom said, bite her back, so she knows it hurts and she won't do it again. Well, it worked, she didn't bite any more, and I STILL feel guilty for having bitten her. When ds came along, I just could not stomach biting him. Thankfully, our youngest never got into biting.

 

For curiousity's sake, do you ever spank?

[Kathy in MD]

......

If this is not effective, you may need to be a bit stronger (no quilted paddle). If child continues in defiance or behavior, turn up the discipline to SEVERE restrictions. The defiance must be broken... not the will (for those who always bring that up). You can remove everything from the bedroom except a few essentials and they can earn it back. You can stop all phone calls, visitors, or trips. On & on. What do they really like to do... restrict this until the repentance comes!.......

 

 

 

You have easy, weak-willed (:D) kids if they will repent due to punishment.

 

My ds won't. And trust me, I've turned up the punishment pretty high. But then punishment is turned into a war of "you can't make me". (He's the sort that martyrs are made of. :tongue_smilie:) But he will alter his behavior for praise.

 

And if I can convince him that he was wrong, he will write apologies, but I can't do that through punishment. Convincing him that he's wrong is a mental excersise, not taking away privileges, things or other punishments.

[Ginevra]

When spanking, or time out, or whatever you are using is not working, it's a sign that there is something about the situation that the parents do not understand. So the first step would be to step back and evaluate. Sometimes, there are undiagnosed special needs. Other times, the child is motivated in the behavior by something other than the obvious. Continuing something that isn't working---or worse, intensifying something that isn't working---prolongs the time you're not effectively addressing the behavior.

 

This was extremely well-said and is just exactly what I found to be true with my ds.

[Dirtroad]

You have easy, weak-willed (:D) kids if they will repent due to punishment.

 

My ds won't. And trust me, I've turned up the punishment pretty high. But then punishment is turned into a war of "you can't make me". (He's the sort that martyrs are made of. :tongue_smilie:) But he will alter his behavior for praise.

 

And if I can convince him that he was wrong, he will write apologies, but I can't do that through punishment. Convincing him that he's wrong is a mental excersise, not taking away privileges, things or other punishments.

 

I don't call it punishment.. it is discipline. It is consistent, well explained, and known to be the course of action. My DS is easy going & rarely needs this sort of action. DD is strong willed & requires much more work.

 

I think you have to find the method that works. If your use of spanking as a discipline (not in anger & reactions) didn't work... then you found another method (I mentioned restrictions, etc).

 

Of all my friends, I only had 1 who couldn't get her daughter to repent in a spanking situation. She was at her wits end. Her answer was the FATHER helping the situation. One episode (maybe 2) and great progress was made....something in his voice & presence made more headway than his giving the spanking.

 

Sometimes, even keeping the watchful eye open & teaching prevention is a great method. Helping them learn to avoid the problem before it hits or escalates.

 

But, still, I have never seen a discipline lesson involving spanking not work. I am glad you found a method.

 

BTW... we dont' punish the behavior. We desperately try to seek the error/defiance, teach correct behavior, and guide them to not repeating that action. AND only for DEFIANCE behaviors... not childish mistakes or goofs.

[Kathy in MD]

I don't call it punishment.. it is discipline. It is consistent, well explained, and known to be the course of action. My DS is easy going & rarely needs this sort of action. DD is strong willed & requires much more work.

 

Externally applied discipline is punishment. If I make a child sit in a corner, remove privileges, or spank him, it is still punishment. For my ds, even if I explain he can't do something because he's lost my trust, HE still views it as punishment and it's never his fault. It's war.

 

For him, I have to go straight to his thought processes and convice him to THINK about how he's hurt others, or himself. And I can do it more easily by poiting out his good behavior and having fu with him.

 

I think you have to find the method that works. If your use of spanking as a discipline (not in anger & reactions) didn't work... then you found another method (I mentioned restrictions, etc).

 

Of all my friends, I only had 1 who couldn't get her daughter to repent in a spanking situation. She was at her wits end. Her answer was the FATHER helping the situation. One episode (maybe 2) and great progress was made....something in his voice & presence made more headway than his giving the spanking.

 

Sometimes, even keeping the watchful eye open & teaching prevention is a great method. Helping them learn to avoid the problem before it hits or escalates.

 

But, still, I have never seen a discipline lesson involving spanking not work. I am glad you found a method.

 

Unfortuately I have. And I've learned the hard way. and through parenting classes, I've leared that many, many other parents have had the same problem.

 

BTW... we dont' punish the behavior. We desperately try to seek the error/defiance, teach correct behavior, and guide them to not repeating that action. AND only for DEFIANCE behaviors... not childish mistakes or goofs.

 

I think defiance problems are the worst sort of problems to punish or discipline. The child, in true defiance mode, is looking for a confrontation. Too often the parent, and that includes me, is willing to give it to them. But defiance is best handled by reducing the desire to defy and teaching the child how to handle disagreements.

[Dirtroad]

I think of punishment as a very severe treatment and without any lesson. I don't think of them as the same b/c I never considered punishment as teaching... just getting back or giving it to them for some illegal act, etc.

 

Defiance is a really matter of the heart and not really a behavior issue. Biblically, a parent must handle defiance b/c it is disrespectful of parental authority (or other appropriate authority) and without correction, it will bleed over into society and continue.

 

People treat defiance today as opinions and expressions. I can't accept that b/c you can express an opinion to any authority respectfully and without defiance.

 

Yes, there are reasons that it harbors in the heart. As parents, we try to see these coming & work on it with the child. However, when it rears its ugly head, more corrective discipline is needed. I promise... it isn't easy work as that implies. My son is easy going... and often needs only some guidance or instruction... but he can rear a firm defiance at times.. it is in our sinful nature to test the waters or push the bar. Easy, gentle or tough as nails.

 

We don't always do things same way, but I did not think saying I had weak, easy children applied to my posts.

[Kathy in MD]

I think of punishment as a very severe treatment and without any lesson. I don't think of them as the same b/c I never considered punishment as teaching... just getting back or giving it to them for some illegal act, etc.

 

But for some kids at some times, what you call discipline they would call punishment. Some kids just won't hear the lesson you say you're imparting.

 

Defiance is a really matter of the heart and not really a behavior issue. Biblically, a parent must handle defiance b/c it is disrespectful of parental authority (or other appropriate authority) and without correction, it will bleed over into society and continue.

 

People treat defiance today as opinions and expressions. I can't accept that b/c you can express an opinion to any authority respectfully and without defiance.

 

I agree with you totally here. But unfortuately defiance in some kids won't respond to how you define discipline. I can tell my ds to go to his room till he cools down, but if he's in a real defiant mood it just sets up another way for him to defy me. He usually ends up going because I can be even more stubborn, but it isn't pretty. And he learns nothing from it.

 

What cures his defiance is the long haul of constant work with him when he *isn't* being defiant. And sometimes I can reach him before it reaches full fledge defiance -- if I handle it well.

 

Yes, there are reasons that it harbors in the heart. As parents, we try to see these coming & work on it with the child. However, when it rears its ugly head, more corrective discipline is needed. I promise... it isn't easy work as that implies. My son is easy going... and often needs only some guidance or instruction... but he can rear a firm defiance at times.. it is in our sinful nature to test the waters or push the bar. Easy, gentle or tough as nails.

 

We don't always do things same way, but I did not think saying I had weak, easy children applied to my posts.

 

I once had a woman tell me and a mother to be that the only problem with undisciplined children was that they hadn't been disciplined and, yes, spanked enough. Her adult children did grow up into fine adults. She also used love and reasoning with her dc.

 

But her dc also didn't have food allergies that made healthy foods act like oppiates in the blood stream and other problems. And she rejected all evidence that her brand of discipline wouldn't work for all children. Sorry, but I've seen too many dc that couldn't be reasoned with until their underlying problems were resolved or at least identified. Then the discipline could be adapted for the child. And your style won't always work, as well reasoned and logical as it is. I know, I've tried it.

 

We can also look at different styles of dog training. Some breeds or idividuals are "hard" and respond well to harder training methods. I'm not talking about harsh or cruel training techiques, just normal choke collars and prongsand jumping all over them. Some dogs need these techiques just to get their attention. But that same technique can be highly detrimental to softer dogs. A totally different attitude and approach is needed for these dogs. Some times the soft dog shuts down, and a trainer can easily see the problem.

 

But sometimes a soft dog will growl and snap at the handler for using these techniques. And he is misread by the trainer as needing even harsher techniques. Sorry, I had it happen with one of my dogs. I started with a "soft" trainer and had good results. But because of the timing of a move, I switched trainers. Unfortunately I got a hard trainer and saw how my dog reacted. And the hard trainer would belittle the "soft" trainers. And she blamed me for not applying the corrections properly, because it couldn't that her technique was wrong for my dog and me. :tongue_smilie: She would have ruined my soft dog in no time had I stayed with her. I switched back and got my sweet dog back.

 

Lesson, not one method will work for all. And often defiance is a result of overly harsh discipline for that individual. I've seen it happen with dogs and I've seen it happen with kids.

[Joanne]

 

For curiousity's sake, do you ever spank?

 

No. For the past 14 years, I have taken a great deal of time and energy developing (and sharing) a way of parenting that does not include arbitray or unrelated punishment. I hope to eventually make my income assisting families to do the same.

[Joanne]

Defiance is a really matter of the heart and not really a behavior issue. Biblically, a parent must handle defiance b/c it is disrespectful of parental authority (or other appropriate authority) and without correction, it will bleed over into society and continue.

 

People treat defiance today as opinions and expressions. I can't accept that b/c you can express an opinion to any authority respectfully and without defiance.

 

Yes, there are reasons that it harbors in the heart. As parents, we try to see these coming & work on it with the child. However, when it rears its ugly head, more corrective discipline is needed.

 

We don't always do things same way, but I did not think saying I had weak, easy children applied to my posts.

 

I approach (Christian) parenting from a completely different paradigm.

 

As a result, discussing particular discipline methods is moot.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I hope to eventually make my income assisting families to do the same.

 

Is your book almost finished? Have you considered working with a therapist and/or psychologist (or group of them)?