Take Your Marbles and Go Home

[KingM]

There's a small, but semi-serious independence movement in Vermont. I'm always annoyed with this group, but never more so than when they pass out their literature during the Fourth of July parade here in town.

 

Just like Texas and California, Vermont was very briefly an independent republic. Never mind that the goal of the American settlers in all three of these places was to become an American state as quickly as possible, this is what the independence movement keeps pointing to as one of the justifications.

 

First of all, I'm an American first, and a Vermonter second, so this issue is a non-starter with me. I understand that many Vermonters want a different sort of government right now and that this movement really picked up steam during the Bush years. But when you disagree with the national election, you don't scoop up all your marbles and go home in a huff, you work within the democratic process.

 

Second, the only way Vermont would be a viable nation would be by relying on American (and to a lesser extent Canadian) taxpayers. We'd be counting on the American military to protect us, we'd enjoy the economic security of living in a good neighborhood, and we'd need access to American ports, airports, and highways. All of which we'd benefit from without paying any of the resulting taxes or sending our citizens to serve in the American military.

 

Finally, the US could stop any sort of independence movement quite easily these days without resorting to violence. Even if a large state such as Texas were to try to secede, how difficult would it be to blockade the ports, cut off all access to American roads and money, and impoverish the new nation until it gave up? It wouldn't be too hard to lean on Mexico or Canada and keep them from dealing with the new nation, either.

 

I guess I'm feeling patriotic these days, but Vermont has a proud tradition within the United States. Important Revolutionary War battles took place on our soil, Vermonters were involved in preserving the Union during the Civil War, and even in the Iraq War Vermonters have suffered more casualties per capita than any other state, five times as many as Utah, the last place state. For such a small state, we have never shirked from doing our duty for our country.

 

So I have no sympathy for the Vermont independence movement or its goals.

 

(I don't mean this as a political thread. Let's not make it one, please.)

[Night Elf]

(I don't mean this as a political thread. Let's not make it one, please.)

 

Too late. I see politics all over your post.

[KingM]

Too late. I see politics all over your post.

 

Well, assuming it doesn't turn into a conservative vs liberal, Republican vs Democrat thread, I would think it could avoid getting too political. But maybe I'm fooling myself. :P

[Tea Time]

Okay, I'll bite, but just because I am really desperate for conversation today! LOL!

 

First of all, I'm an American first, and a Vermonter second, so this issue is a non-starter with me. I understand that many Vermonters want a different sort of government right now and that this movement really picked up steam during the Bush years. But when you disagree with the national election, you don't scoop up all your marbles and go home in a huff, you work within the democratic process.

 

 

Ideally it is best to work within the democratic process to make change. At what point do you become unable to do that? What if homeschooling became illegal, for example?

 

Finally, the US could stop any sort of independence movement quite easily these days without resorting to violence. Even if a large state such as Texas were to try to secede, how difficult would it be to blockade the ports, cut off all access to American roads and money, and impoverish the new nation until it gave up? It wouldn't be too hard to lean on Mexico or Canada and keep them from dealing with the new nation, either.

 

 

It would be very difficult if the military refused to cooperate with that plan.

 

Also, if the USA uses force, even non-violent force, to make states remain in the union, then hasn't it sort of cease to be the very thing that made it unique in the first place? Isn't it kind of "imperialistic" for the US to behave in the manner you are suggesting? While it is at it, why not just lean on Canada and Mexico a little harder and make them do some other stuff that would benefit the US?

 

In my mind, if the fed gov't had the attitude that every state should be strong, independent, and self governing while still having strong ties to one another, then we would have the healthiest and most diverse and free country in the world. The more the federal gov't seeks to align everyone's laws and beliefs, the weaker and more helpless we all become.

 

How's that for a "not political" response to a very hypothetical situation? :lol: BTW, I don't think we are anywhere near these kinds of scenarios. I do think the states are trying to tell the fed gov't to back off a little, and I think that is healthy for the most part. Balance in all things.

[Carol in Cal.]

...about my several years of residence in Vermont is the way that democracy seemed so personal. The town meeting system, the general smallness of the state, the accessibility of elected officials, all made it seem like the individual voter's decisions were really significant. Also there was a truly democratic process.

 

This was pretty revelatory to me, having grown up in a big state where I never felt that I had a voice at all.

 

I think that the obvious upside of all of this empowerment is not outweighed by the downside, which might be impatience with the lack of a voice on the national level. But I can see that others might feel that the disconnect between local and national politics warrants a separation. I think they are wrong, but shoot, as a former Vermonter, I can't really fault them for having their views. As long as they don't prevail. And they can't. So this is not worth worrying about, IMO.

[Philothea]

I wish them success in their endeavors. Au revoir.

[Spy Car]

Oh man, I would really miss Vermont if it wasn't part of the Union. If we were talking about a state like Texas, I mean, who cares? :D

 

But Vermont? Vermont is cool :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill (who's ducking to avoid flying cow-pies)

[Dirtroad]

You are more of a federalist... National gov't over state issue. I see things as opposite in that I am from Alabama first & the USA second (call it states rights... or anti-federalist to others). Very huge difference in world view. Remember, this same stuff caused a war.. .they are REAL ISSUES.

 

Another point.... we do not live in a democracy but a republic. The only real thing democratic is that you VOTE.... that is basically it. The result of gov't education (or intention of it per Dewey & others in early 1900s) has taught this democratic, democracy stuff for every & it is destructive. We are a republic & you can find quotes from founding fathers about how dangerous or quickly to fail a democracy is.

 

Also, Texas wasn't in a hurry to join us EXCEPT (as best I have read) for protection against Mexico. It is my understanding, that some thought it woudl be temporary. It is way more complicated than they wanted to join quickly. Some states didn't want to join at all & they held out until atleast the Bill of Rights was written.

 

The federal gov't has GROSSLY overstepped their boundaries (beyond BHO.. but he is really stretching the limit). Our state legislatures are filled with leaders addicted to money who would sacrifice their own mother for more cash from Washington (I hope this is an exaggeration).

 

Another issue, you assume that things would remain the exact same except in the case of Vermont. Nothing is static. If Vermont makes changes, they would not be alone. There would be multiple changes & nothing will be static... heck, they might even cooperate with each other one day (like our states did at first). We just don't know.

 

It is completely HEALTHY to have these debates due to the excessive abuses & infringes of the federal gov't. Our national leaders are handing over too much authority to Czars and cabinet members (ex. EPA & recent Cap/Trade bills). The US Legislature is giving up all their responsiblity in the name of tolerance, fear, pleasing lobbyist, etc. The Pres, Congress & Courts have established themselves, with our aid of public ignorance or lack of interest (we know more about MJ than DC), as a monarchy or royalty of sorts (extremely aristocratic, aloof, and arrogant). They need to be brought back to reality. I hear such arrogance from them & sadly agreement, from citizens, who believe only certain people have certain knowledge and skills to serve in DC... GARBAGE... that was the arguement of the royal supporters of old and they resented education of the common man b/c he was getting to knowledgeable & asserting his interest in areas the powers didn't approve. We have people today that think if you didn't go to Yale or have a law degree... you are qualified to lead this country.... even if you ran a corporation, ran a town or a state, etc. Our laziness is being rewarded with the elimination of our voice in DC.

 

As citizens, our power is in our vote & voice. We are not being heard (the media carries the water for the liberal arguements & enjoys the rewards of prestige and access to the big events)..... we are not actually not taken seriously (alas reminds me of King George & other repressive gov'ts). We are watching our country bully another country who is trying to save their own constitution and yet ignore a theocratic dictatorship murdering people in their streets.... WHO ARE WE TODAY? Perhaps our voices need to be heard & real movements start during such hard times.

 

So, instead of assuming they are NUTS or wrong... find out whey they havereal complaints... you might want to read up a bit more on where they are coming from.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Dirtroad

[Mad Jenny Flint]

who said that the democratic process seems so personal in Vermont. I grew up there, and attended the University- graduated in its bicentennial year. My mom was involved in town government when she lived there, and attended many town hall meetings even when she was not a town officer. My dad is a selectman in my little town, even now. It *is* cool. I wish Georgia were like that.

[Orthodox6]

Is political theory allowed? Just no party-bashing or candidate-trashing, right?

 

I found the original post very interesting. I did not know about Vermont's fleeting "nationhood", nor about California's. As a Texan, I know only about us ! (I flunk "integrative geography" !)

 

Although I never have the time to study political science and theory, I have figured out that our country's system seems impossible by definition. States' rights and federal government are wholly incompatible, yet our country attempts to reconcile these two warring ideologies. Makes little sense, to be candid.

[Deb in NZ]

but now live in New Zealand. Where in VT do you live? I grew up just outside Burlington & went to UVM. After that, I lived & taught 2 years in the NE Kingdom. I do agree with much you've said, but I never heard of any group aiming for succeeding from the union. Maybe as I grew up real near the Quebec border the real issue of Quebec's independence fight overshadowed any VT movement. My family has been in VT since the late 1600s, so we have a long history in the area. I do remember family stories about how VT still has a militia to keep NY from invading :tongue_smilie:

[Shawna in Texas]

Oh man, I would really miss Vermont if it wasn't part of the Union. If we were talking about a state like Texas, I mean, who cares? :D

 

But Vermont? Vermont is cool :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill (who's ducking to avoid flying cow-pies)

 

I was about to come out and defend my state:boxing_smiley: , but gosh it's so hot here. I don't really have anything nice to say about it. I'd love a summer house in Vermont.

 

I will fight you to the death, come October.

[Spy Car]

I was about to come out and defend my state:boxing_smiley: , but gosh it's so hot here. I don't really have anything nice to say about it. I'd love a summer house in Vermont.

 

I will fight you to the death, come October.

 

If it helps any, its been hot there too.

 

Don't mess with Texas

 

Bill

[Peek a Boo]

There's a small, but semi-serious independence movement in Vermont. I'm always annoyed with this group, but never more so than when they pass out their literature during the Fourth of July parade here in town.

 

I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Nothing is more annoying than watching Americans cave under an oppressive gvt, especially on a day that is supposed to celebrate our independence.

 

Just like Texas and California, Vermont was very briefly an independent republic. Never mind that the goal of the American settlers in all three of these places was to become an American state as quickly as possible, this is what the independence movement keeps pointing to as one of the justifications.

 

of course they wanted to become an American state-- that's back when we weren't a SOCIALIST country. back when we had people like T. Jefferson and Sam Adams:

 

"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government." Thomas Jefferson to James Madison in 1787

 

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.” – Samuel Adams, speech at the Philadelphia State House on August 1, 1776.

 

 

First of all, I'm an American first, and a Vermonter second, so this issue is a non-starter with me. I understand that many Vermonters want a different sort of government right now and that this movement really picked up steam during the Bush years. But when you disagree with the national election, you don't scoop up all your marbles and go home in a huff, you work within the democratic process.

aside from the obvious point about "democratic process" that dirtroad and Tea Time pointed out.....

yeah, we tried working "within the democratic process" back during our inception too.

Second, the only way Vermont would be a viable nation would be by relying on American (and to a lesser extent Canadian) taxpayers. We'd be counting on the American military to protect us, we'd enjoy the economic security of living in a good neighborhood, and we'd need access to American ports, airports, and highways. All of which we'd benefit from without paying any of the resulting taxes or sending our citizens to serve in the American military.

 

 

dirtroad nailed this one pretty well too.

Finally, the US could stop any sort of independence movement quite easily these days without resorting to violence. Even if a large state such as Texas were to try to secede, how difficult would it be to blockade the ports, cut off all access to American roads and money, and impoverish the new nation until it gave up? It wouldn't be too hard to lean on Mexico or Canada and keep them from dealing with the new nation, either.

 

Thank you TeaTime for pointing out another reason to support the independence movement in the first place. ;)

I guess I'm feeling patriotic these days, but Vermont has a proud tradition within the United States. Important Revolutionary War battles took place on our soil, Vermonters were involved in preserving the Union during the Civil War, and even in the Iraq War Vermonters have suffered more casualties per capita than any other state, five times as many as Utah, the last place state. For such a small state, we have never shirked from doing our duty for our country.

 

So I have no sympathy for the Vermont independence movement or its goals.

 

 

so let me get this straight: Vermont has a history of fighting for independence, and you are wondering why they would want to fight for independence again?? :confused:

Edited July 6, 2009 by Peek a Boo

[Melinda in VT]

but now live in New Zealand. Where in VT do you live? I grew up just outside Burlington & went to UVM. After that, I lived & taught 2 years in the NE Kingdom. I do agree with much you've said, but I never heard of any group aiming for succeeding from the union. Maybe as I grew up real near the Quebec border the real issue of Quebec's independence fight overshadowed any VT movement. My family has been in VT since the late 1600s, so we have a long history in the area. I do remember family stories about how VT still has a militia to keep NY from invading :tongue_smilie:

 

Deb, the Second Vermont Republic movement really gained steam under the last administration. They've been marching in parades, protesting, and (I think) meeting with state leaders in Montpelier.

[PineFarmMom]

So, instead of assuming they are NUTS or wrong... find out whey they havereal complaints... you might want to read up a bit more on where they are coming from.

 

I agree!! Our 4th of July Tea Party was very encouraging. It's so good to see so many people who are fighting to slam on the brakes in what they are seeing. If people don't make some noise, we'll just be carried away in the machine that has been created.

 

Go, Vermont!!!! :)

[Melinda in VT]

so let me get this straight: Vermont has a history of fighting for independence, and you are wondering why they would want to fight for independence again?? :confused:

 

Well, Vermont's previous independence was a protest against not being allowed to be an original state. New York and Massachusetts each claimed Vermont as part of their territory, so Vermont declared itself an independent Republic until the US agreed to let them join as state #14.

[Peek a Boo]

Well, Vermont's previous independence was a protest against not being allowed to be an original state. New York and Massachusetts each claimed Vermont as part of their territory, so Vermont declared itself an independent Republic until the US agreed to let them join as state #14.

 

again: back when our gvt was VERY different.

 

I would have wanted to be part of America back then too.;)

 

eta: apparently they don't like being part of something that doesn't recognize VT's independence [the MA/NY thing]. I can't blame them.

[Rhonda in TX]

Well, that was a nice thing to say.

[Deb in NZ]

I seem to remember it was NY & NH that claimed VT, not MA. Much of VT was called the NH Grants at the time of the beginning of the Revolutionary War.

 

I have been out of VT since 1990, so it looks like I would have missed all the independence movement. I have been aware that many VTers did not support the last administration much & that there were many GreenMountain Boys fighting overseas. VT has a history of being ahead of the times. VT outlawed slavery & gave voting rights to all men in 1777, years ahead of the US. If this current independence movement has some ideas about solving some of the problems that plague the US, I'm all for listening.

 

JMHO,

Edited July 6, 2009 by Deb in NZ

[Melinda in VT]

I seem to remember it was NY & NH that claimed VT, not MA. Much of VT was called the NH Grants at the time of the beginning of the Revolutionary War.

 

I just double-checked and you are right! :blushing: Thanks for correcting me.

[Impish]

I'm going to be arrogant and speak on behalf on Canadian taxpayers and say, "No thanks." We've got enough on the go not to want to take on Vermont too. :D

[Melinda in VT]

I have been out of VT since 1990, so it looks like I would have missed all the independence movement. I have been aware that many VTers did not support the last administration much & that there were many GreenMountain Boys fighting overseas. VT has a history of being ahead of the times. VT outlawed slavery & gave voting rights to all men in 1777, years ahead of the US. If this current independence movement has some ideas about solving some of the problems that plague the US, I'm all for listening.

 

JMHO,

 

I like some of their ideas. I certainly agree with what I've read of their view on U.S. foreign policy. And some ideas--like buying locally and supporting local agriculture--are things I am trying to do more and more even though we are part of the U.S. The idea of having a more direct voice in national politics is exciting.

 

But I we couldn't defend ourselves if the U.S. fought us on this. And as much as I love Vermont, it is the fourth state I've lived in, and I've loved three of the four. None of our family lives locally. And I don't really want to give up my U.S. citizenship.

[KirstenH]

Finally, the US could stop any sort of independence movement quite easily these days without resorting to violence. Even if a large state such as Texas were to try to secede, how difficult would it be to blockade the ports, cut off all access to American roads and money, and impoverish the new nation until it gave up? It wouldn't be too hard to lean on Mexico or Canada and keep them from dealing with the new nation, either.

 

Wow, you consider all of that "non-violence?" Starving and impoverishing people intentionally to stop them from reclaiming their freedom?

 

I guess I'm feeling patriotic these days, but Vermont has a proud tradition within the United States. Important Revolutionary War battles took place on our soil, Vermonters were involved in preserving the Union during the Civil War, and even in the Iraq War Vermonters have suffered more casualties per capita than any other state, five times as many as Utah, the last place state. For such a small state, we have never shirked from doing our duty for our country.

 

So I have no sympathy for the Vermont independence movement or its goals.

 

(I don't mean this as a political thread. Let's not make it one, please.)

It is a political thread. And some of us feel that "doing our duty for our country" involves fighting for the principles it was founded on, even (especially) when the country as a whole rejects them. Perhaps the people you have encountered in Vermont feel that way, too.

[Peek a Boo]

Wow, you consider all of that "non-violence?" Starving and impoverishing people intentionally to stop them from reclaiming their freedom?

... And some of us feel that "doing our duty for our country" involves fighting for the principles it was founded on, even (especially) when the country as a whole rejects them. Perhaps the people you have encountered in Vermont feel that way, too.

 

excellent points.

[brehon]

You are more of a federalist... National gov't over state issue. I see things as opposite in that I am from Alabama first & the USA second (call it states rights... or anti-federalist to others). Very huge difference in world view. Remember, this same stuff caused a war.. .they are REAL ISSUES.

 

Very true. And this issue never really went away. It's reared its head several times since the War.

 

Another point.... we do not live in a democracy but a republic. The only real thing democratic is that you VOTE.... that is basically it. The result of gov't education (or intention of it per Dewey & others in early 1900s) has taught this democratic, democracy stuff for every & it is destructive. We are a republic & you can find quotes from founding fathers about how dangerous or quickly to fail a democracy is.

 

Ayup. There are several letters between Jefferson and Adams that touch on the dangers of Athenian democracy.

 

Also, Texas wasn't in a hurry to join us EXCEPT (as best I have read) for protection against Mexico. It is my understanding, that some thought it woudl be temporary. It is way more complicated than they wanted to join quickly. Some states didn't want to join at all & they held out until atleast the Bill of Rights was written.

 

Bolding mine. I'll address it below.

 

The federal gov't has GROSSLY overstepped their boundaries (beyond BHO.. but he is really stretching the limit). Our state legislatures are filled with leaders addicted to money who would sacrifice their own mother for more cash from Washington (I hope this is an exaggeration).

 

Another issue, you assume that things would remain the exact same except in the case of Vermont. Nothing is static. If Vermont makes changes, they would not be alone. There would be multiple changes & nothing will be static... heck, they might even cooperate with each other one day (like our states did at first). We just don't know.

 

There are several states (like Wyoming) considering legislation to take back rights originally granted to them using the 10th Amendment as their justification.

 

It is completely HEALTHY to have these debates due to the excessive abuses & infringes of the federal gov't. Our national leaders are handing over too much authority to Czars and cabinet members (ex. EPA & recent Cap/Trade bills). The US Legislature is giving up all their responsiblity in the name of tolerance, fear, pleasing lobbyist, etc. The Pres, Congress & Courts have established themselves, with our aid of public ignorance or lack of interest (we know more about MJ than DC), as a monarchy or royaltyof sorts (extremely aristocratic, aloof, and arrogant). They need to be brought back to reality. I hear such arrogance from them & sadly agreement, from citizens, who believe only certain people have certain knowledge and skills to serve in DC... GARBAGE... that was the arguement of the royal supporters of old and they resented education of the common man b/c he was getting to knowledgeable & asserting his interest in areas the powers didn't approve. We have people today that think if you didn't go to Yale or have a law degree... you are qualified to lead this country.... even if you ran a corporation, ran a town or a state, etc. Our laziness is being rewarded with the elimination of our voice in DC.

 

As citizens, our power is in our vote & voice. We are not being heard (the media carries the water for the liberal arguements & enjoys the rewards of prestige and access to the big events)..... we are not actually not taken seriously (alas reminds me of King George & other repressive gov'ts). We are watching our country bully another country who is trying to save their own constitution and yet ignore a theocratic dictatorship murdering people in their streets.... WHO ARE WE TODAY? Perhaps our voices need to be heard & real movements start during such hard times.

 

So, instead of assuming they are NUTS or wrong... find out whey they havereal complaints... you might want to read up a bit more on where they are coming from.

 

OK, the whole TX independance v. state issue. As per the bolded section above -- yes and no, depending on who one talked to. Most of the famous men of the TX Revolution were illegal aliens who came to TX in the 1830's to agitate for the war (Bowie, Fanin, Crockett to name a few). Many of the legal settlers in TX (Moses & Stephen Austin, for example) fought with the Mexicans against the Spanish in 1821 and were protesting Santa Ana's coup of the Mexican gov't and its prohibitive restrictions on the anglo Texians.

 

There was an unofficial "understanding" between the gov't at Washington-on-the-Brazos (the first seat of gov't for TX) and Washington that TX would become a state just as soon as the war was over. Sam Houston (1st and last (elected) president of RoT) and many people in TX were pro-joining the Union as expeditiously as possible. Mirabeau B. Lamar (the 2nd president (and 4th, IIRC) ) was very much against joining the Union. There were others who shared this point of view.

 

It was because of Lamar's intransigence and the staggering war debt of the new Republic (among other reasons - like having to provide protection against the Comanches) that the US delayed TX joining the Union. The other important point here is that TX did not become a state in the usual way. Most states at that time first organized themselves into territories and then eventually became states (this is obviously grossly simplified). TX went from Republic to state. No one in TX thought becoming a state was a temporary deal. It was, for many, the ideal they hoped to attain. I don't know about other states.

 

As a point of interest, there is in London the building where the Republic of Texas' embassy was located. Last time I was there it had been converted into a restaurant called --- wait for it -- The Republic of TX --- owned by a Texan.

 

That's probably much more than anyone really wanted to know. :tongue_smilie: At least you didn't ask me about Mediaeval history. One of my good friends and I have been known to (quite literally) drive people from the table whilst we debate the finer points of, say, the papal split in the 1300's.

[Geo]

That's probably much more than anyone really wanted to know. :tongue_smilie: At least you didn't ask me about Mediaeval history. One of my good friends and I have been known to (quite literally) drive people from the table whilst we debate the finer points of, say, the papal split in the 1300's.

 

That's probably because they weren't raised on "dinner table politics". I grew up on it. If I were at your table I would just sit, listen and smile. Your post reminded me of my grandfather, and that's a good thing. Thanks for the memories...

 

 

Geo

[Peek a Boo]

OK, the whole TX independance v. state issue.

 

yeah... and of course, we're back to what the US was then vs now. ;)

[Heather in WI]

You are more of a federalist... National gov't over state issue. I see things as opposite in that I am from Alabama first & the USA second (call it states rights... or anti-federalist to others). Very huge difference in world view. Remember, this same stuff caused a war.. .they are REAL ISSUES.

 

.......

 

So, instead of assuming they are NUTS or wrong... find out whey they have real complaints... you might want to read up a bit more on where they are coming from.

 

:hurray: I loved this post!

[KingM]

So, instead of assuming they are NUTS or wrong... find out whey they havereal complaints... you might want to read up a bit more on where they are coming from.

 

Why do you assume I haven't read up on them? I read their newspapers they pass out and I even sympathize with many of their concerns.

 

But I still think they're wrong in their ultimate aims.

[Krista in LA]

Although I never have the time to study political science and theory, I have figured out that our country's system seems impossible by definition. States' rights and federal government are wholly incompatible, yet our country attempts to reconcile these two warring ideologies. Makes little sense, to be candid.

 

I don't think they are wholly incompatible. If you adhere strictly the US Constitution, you will find that the 10th amendment clearly states that the fed gov has certain powers as granted in the Constitution and all other things should be dealt with at the state level. The reason so many states are becoming unhappy with the fed gov is that they keep repeatedly overstepping their grounds per the Constitution.

[Krista in LA]

There's a small, but semi-serious independence movement in Vermont. I'm always annoyed with this group, but never more so than when they pass out their literature during the Fourth of July parade here in town.

 

....

 

So I have no sympathy for the Vermont independence movement or its goals.

 

 

Perhaps you are just afraid of the overpopulation problem you would have from the influx of people wanting to live in VT if it became independent. :D

[Krista in LA]

:iagree:Awesome post Dirtroad.

[KingM]

Perhaps you are just afraid of the overpopulation problem you would have from the influx of people wanting to live in VT if it became independent. :D

 

Flatlanders!!! :lol:

 

If they do it, I want a moose on our coin and a pint of Ben & Jerry's ice cream on the dollar bill. Wait a minute, this is New England. That should have read, "the dallah bill." ;)

[Peek a Boo]

Flatlanders!!! :lol:

 

If they do it, I want a moose on our coin and a pint of Ben & Jerry's ice cream on the dollar bill. Wait a minute, this is New England. That should have read, "the dallah bill." ;)

 

now THAT is funny...:lol:

[astrid]

Perhaps you are just afraid of the overpopulation problem you would have from the influx of people wanting to live in VT if it became independent. :D

 

 

Are you kidding?! :001_smile:

 

You folks who wear wool socks and turtlenecks when it's 50 degrees wouldn't make it through the first winter! I think we're safe--- Right, KingM?

 

You can have your blistering heat, your bugs, your snakes, your hurricanes, your central air conditioning, your flat land--- I'll take New England's four seasons and cruel winters any day! :D

 

Astrid:lol:

[Melinda in VT]

Are you kidding?! :001_smile:

 

You folks who wear wool socks and turtlenecks when it's 50 degrees wouldn't make it through the first winter! I think we're safe--- Right, KingM?

 

You can have your blistering heat, your bugs, your snakes, your hurricanes, your central air conditioning, your flat land--- I'll take New England's four seasons and cruel winters any day! :D

 

Astrid:lol:

 

I'm also guessing that some of the people who have posted in support of Vermont independence would not care to live under the kind of government Vermont would actually create.

[astrid]

I'm also guessing that some of the people who have posted in support of Vermont independence would not care to live under the kind of government Vermont would actually create.

 

I don't know.....as much of a liberal Democrat as I am, if they start in with

"A Pint of Ben and Jerry's in Every Freezer!" I'm there! :D:D

 

Astrid

[KingM]

You folks who wear wool socks and turtlenecks when it's 50 degrees wouldn't make it through the first winter! I think we're safe--- Right, KingM?

 

You can have your blistering heat, your bugs, your snakes, your hurricanes, your central air conditioning, your flat land--- I'll take New England's four seasons and cruel winters any day! :D

 

 

:thumbup1:

 

And you know what they say. If you don't like the weather in New England, wait fifteen minutes. (Although if it rains anymore this summer I'm going to build an ark.)

[Melinda in VT]

I don't know.....as much of a liberal Democrat as I am, if they start in with

"A Pint of Ben and Jerry's in Every Freezer!" I'm there! :D:D

 

Astrid

 

If you're a liberal Democrat, I think you would feel right at home here. (One of our local representatives to the state legislature was recently referred to as a "supposed Independent but really closet Republican" in a letter to the editor.)

[astrid]

I know, and I haven't been following this thread (or this situation--- I live in CT) very closely, but aren't the folks who want independence of the more conservative persuasion?

 

It matters not to me--- if they're promising Ben and Jerry's, I'll follow them anywhere! :D

 

astrid

[Melinda in VT]

I know, and I haven't been following this thread (or this situation--- I live in CT) very closely, but aren't the folks who want independence of the more conservative persuasion?

 

It matters not to me--- if they're promising Ben and Jerry's, I'll follow them anywhere! :D

 

astrid

 

I'm actually having a hard time getting a read on that. They appear to be urging a small-to-nonexistent military, complaining about capitalism increasing the gap between rich and poor, and urging a focus on local food and industry.

 

They also have a statement about hoping Vermonters will choose a "small" government, which doesn't seem to match the way voting is going in the state.

[astrid]

I'm actually having a hard time getting a read on that. They appear to be urging a small-to-nonexistent military, complaining about capitalism increasing the gap between rich and poor, and urging a focus on local food and industry.

 

They also have a statement about hoping Vermonters will choose a "small" government, which doesn't seem to match the way voting is going in the state.

 

 

Ah. Well, I"m all for the focus on local food and industry--- Ben and Jerry's is local! :-) So is Green Mountain Coffee. And King Arthur Flour. All staples in my house!

 

astri

[Melinda in VT]

Ah. Well, I"m all for the focus on local food and industry--- Ben and Jerry's is local! :-) So is Green Mountain Coffee. And King Arthur Flour. All staples in my house!

 

astri

 

Move on up!

 

(I have threatened to make my kids work for B&J when they are teens, in order to get the weekly allotment of free ice cream.):D

 

Until recently, our local grocery store stocked the B&J factory rejects at half-price.

[KingM]

Ah. Well, I"m all for the focus on local food and industry--- Ben and Jerry's is local! :-) So is Green Mountain Coffee. And King Arthur Flour. All staples in my house!

 

A special vote for King Arthur Flour, which doesn't seem to be quite as well known. I was surprised at just how much better the bread is when made with KA, rather than the generic I had been using.

 

Have you ever tried Cool Beans? It's another VT coffee that also tastes fantastic, but is a little cheaper than Green Mountain, since it's not quite as well known.

[astrid]

A special vote for King Arthur Flour, which doesn't seem to be quite as well known. I was surprised at just how much better the bread is when made with KA, rather than the generic I had been using.

 

Have you ever tried Cool Beans? It's another VT coffee that also tastes fantastic, but is a little cheaper than Green Mountain, since it's not quite as well known.

 

Ahhh....KING ARTHUR IS THE BEST!!! It's all I use, and it's all my mother ever used, and her mother before her. We make all of our own bread, cookies, cakes, etc. and KA has never let us down. The bread flour is so wonderful-- soft and delicious loaves with so much rise!

 

And their cheddar cheese powder is heavenly on popcorn or mixed into butter and spread on corn on the cob!

 

We love to visit the store and regularly drive up there from our home in CT to stock up.

 

OH-- and I forgot The Vermont Country Store! And all the fabulous ski areas we frequent!

 

Astrid (who will definitely by some Cool Beans the next time I'm in VT!)

[Peek a Boo]

I'm also guessing that some of the people who have posted in support of Vermont independence would not care to live under the kind of government Vermont would actually create.

 

You are absolutely right: what they establish on their own is irrelevant to the fact that they should have the right to establish it, esp with the Constitutional abuses we've had the last century.

 

That and --as astrid so accurately pointed out--the weather! It took me a year to thaw out after 4.5 years in Upstate NY... ;)

[brehon]

yeah... and of course, we're back to what the US was then vs now. ;)

 

Yup, you're right. I was just addressing the varying motivations of Texas, in particular, joining the Union way back when. Like most things it wasn't a simple deal (literally & metaphorically).

 

I'm of the opinion that even Hamilton would be appalled at the reach of the federal gov't today.

[Deb in NZ]

You can have your blistering heat, your bugs, your snakes, your hurricanes, your central air conditioning, your flat land--- I'll take New England's four seasons and cruel winters any day! :D

 

But VT has 5 seasons...you forgot MUD SEASON. :tongue_smilie: I was speaking to my mom yesterday & she had never heard of the VT independence movement. Where in VT is it based? NE Kingdom? Southern VT? ???

[Melinda in VT]

But VT has 5 seasons...you forgot MUD SEASON. :tongue_smilie: I was speaking to my mom yesterday & she had never heard of the VT independence movement. Where in VT is it based? NE Kingdom? Southern VT? ???

 

One member lives in the Mad River Valley. Another in Middlebury (I think?).