Is It Worse? (Soccer Spin Off)

[Impish]

Ok, this was something Wolf and I were talking about re: Diva's soccer issues.

 

When I was growing up with three brothers, there were certain things you Just. Didn't. Do. One of them was for my brothers to pick on a girl. I was the exception of course, lol! :lol: If my brothers tangled with another boy, they *might* get in crap, depending on if the other boy was younger, smaller, or simply more vulnerable in some way. Other than that, it was assumed that boys could sort it out btwn themselves...Of course, we're talking a one on one situation, not a ganged up on thing. But, you didn't put your hands on a girl. Period. If one of my brothers shoved a girl and my parents caught wind of it, their lives would have been not worth living for some time. You just didn't do it. Boys didn't pick on girls, period. That was the law in our house, something that I can remember my dad telling my brothers for YEARS. Never EVER pick on a girl.

 

Is it still like that? Or has that whole idea gone the way of the dodo, and everyone is free game for everyone? My experience with Diva in school and now soccer seems to indicate that its a free game out there. :glare:

[lionfamily1999]

I think the move to equality has put a hurting on the "you never hit a girl" idea. When my ds got into skirmishes with his big sister, I started off appalled that he would hit his sister, A GIRL. After the first two, 'YOU NEVER HIT A GIRL,' squeelings were over, my dd approached me. Why does it matter if I'm a girl? I'm just as strong as any boy.

 

Well.

 

Of course she is.........

 

So, now, we focus on, we do not hit, we do not shove, we behave in a dignified manner. I leave sex out of it.

 

I know I'm not alone in this, having discussed it irl with many friends, or parents of my dcs friends. Woohoo, equality.

[Melinda in VT]

I think the move to equality has put a hurting on the "you never hit a girl" idea. When my ds got into skirmishes with his big sister, I started off appalled that he would hit his sister, A GIRL. After the first two, 'YOU NEVER HIT A GIRL,' squeelings were over, my dd approached me. Why does it matter if I'm a girl? I'm just as strong as any boy.

 

Well.

 

Of course she is.........

 

So, now, we focus on, we do not hit, we do not shove, we behave in a dignified manner. I leave sex out of it.

 

I know I'm not alone in this, having discussed it irl with many friends, or parents of my dcs friends. Woohoo, equality.

 

Exactly. It's not fair for girls to be equal in some areas and given special protection in others. The consequence for hitting a girl should be the same as the consequence for hitting a boy.

 

Besides, how far would you carry this? Diva is on a co-ed soccer team, right? Should the boys play less aggressively around her because she is a girl? Doesn't that give her an advantage over the opposing player, if she can play her hardest against them and they have to pull back?

[pqr]

When I was growing up with three brothers, there were certain things you Just. Didn't. Do. One of them was for my brothers to pick on a girl. .... You just didn't do it. Boys didn't pick on girls, period. That was the law in our house, something that I can remember my dad telling my brothers for YEARS. Never EVER pick on a girl.

 

Is it still like that? Or has that whole idea gone the way of the dodo, and everyone is free game for everyone? My experience with Diva in school and now soccer seems to indicate that its a free game out there. :glare:

 

 

Old values are still important for some of us. With the exception of my sister (and sisters do not count) if I had ever picked on a girl I would not have been able to sit for a month. Now I was the only one who could pick on my sister, had anyone else done so there would have been blood.

 

I was raised in a culture where boys were expected to fight. We fought fairly but all boys fought and it was part of growing into a man. I can not concieve of a boy, in my childhood culture, ever hitting a girl. The rest of us would have torn his head off. Only a sissy would hit a girl and no boy would bear the shame of that.

 

This is how I raise my sons.

 

The collapse of basic manners, on the part of boys, when dealing with girls is yet another unintended consequence of feminism. When children were told that boys and girls were the same, when the ideal of a man being a protector of women was cast aside, when boys no longer aspired to be gentlemen, when men no longer stood and gave their seat to a woman...what we have today is the result.

[PineFarmMom]

 

Is it still like that? Or has that whole idea gone the way of the dodo, and everyone is free game for everyone? My experience with Diva in school and now soccer seems to indicate that its a free game out there. :glare:

 

We know a family who now homeschools because their dd was physically beat up on different occasions by boys in middle school. This is at an age when boys are starting to become physically much more powerful. They just couldn't cope with that school situation anymore and their dd being in danger like that. :( It shocked me, as we teach our boys not to touch a girl. We live in an area where there just seems to be a lot of domestic violence anyway, so I'm sure that adds to the problem.

[Impish]

We didn't *want* her on a co-ed team. There wasn't enough registrations for girls to have their own team, and she was placed on co-ed without our consent. We didn't know til the first practice that it was co-ed, and hers is one of the few teams with girls on it at all. I think there's one other team we've played against that had girls on it. It was that, or nothing...I voted for nothing, Wolf figured since there was no changing, it wouldn't be an issue :glare: Plus, they'd already cashed our cheque, and had a no refund policy.

 

Trust me, it won't be a co-ed team ever again.

[PineFarmMom]

Exactly. It's not fair for girls to be equal in some areas and given special protection in others. The consequence for hitting a girl should be the same as the consequence for hitting a boy.

 

 

When they are at a physical disadvantage, yes, it is fair. When you start moving beyond the 11-12yo range, boys can definitely win any confrontation with most girls. I don't allow hitting with my boys or my dd, so that point is moot here. BUT I think there has to be lessons in chivalry and being the protector of females for boys so they can see how things SHOULD be handled, regardless of how our society has warped it all.

[Sophia]

Old values are still important for some of us. With the exception of my sister (and sisters do not count) if I had ever picked on a girl I would not have been able to sit for a month. Now I was the only one who could pick on my sister, had anyone else done so there would have been blood.

 

I was raised in a culture where boys were expected to fight. We fought fairly but all boys fought and it was part of growing into a man. I can not concieve of a boy, in my childhood culture, ever hitting a girl. The rest of us would have torn his head off. Only a sissy would hit a girl and no boy would bear the shame of that.

 

This is how I raise my sons.

 

The collapse of basic manners, on the part of boys, when dealing with girls is yet another unintended consequence of feminism. When children were told that boys and girls were the same, when the ideal of a man being a protector of women was cast aside, when boys no longer aspired to be gentlemen, when men no longer stood and gave their seat to a woman...what we have today is the result.

 

Yep.

We raise our boys to be protectors and defenders.

I don't like it if I even hear my oldest talk to his female friends in the same way he talks to his male friends. Boys seem to thrive on insulting each other, but he better not talk that way to a girl!

[Jennifer in MI]

Old values are still important for some of us. With the exception of my sister (and sisters do not count) if I had ever picked on a girl I would not have been able to sit for a month. Now I was the only one who could pick on my sister, had anyone else done so there would have been blood.

 

I was raised in a culture where boys were expected to fight. We fought fairly but all boys fought and it was part of growing into a man. I can not concieve of a boy, in my childhood culture, ever hitting a girl. The rest of us would have torn his head off. Only a sissy would hit a girl and no boy would bear the shame of that.

 

This is how I raise my sons.

 

.

 

This is the type of boy/man I hope my dd marries! I got a man like this - one who protects me - not only physically, but emotionally as well. I have NO doubt he'll take care of us. Because he does this, it makes me a stronger, more self-assured person and I'm a better mother, volunteer, homeschooling mom, wife, cook, etc because of it.

 

(So, how old are your boys? Anyone we can match up with my dd?? LOL)

 

ETA - my boys are raised not to hit girls. Period. They are allowed, however, to defend themselves if necessary. My ds13 got into his first fight last spring defending a girl. He stood up to a bully. The other boy threw a sucker punch. You bet my kid did the right thing by using his karate and getting him into a joint lock!!! This kid won't bother him again! And, I hope he'll think twice before bullying a girl again too.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Jennifer in MI

[LND1218]

Old values are still important for some of us. With the exception of my sister (and sisters do not count) if I had ever picked on a girl I would not have been able to sit for a month. Now I was the only one who could pick on my sister, had anyone else done so there would have been blood.

 

I was raised in a culture where boys were expected to fight. We fought fairly but all boys fought and it was part of growing into a man. I can not concieve of a boy, in my childhood culture, ever hitting a girl. The rest of us would have torn his head off. Only a sissy would hit a girl and no boy would bear the shame of that.

 

This is how I raise my sons.

 

The collapse of basic manners, on the part of boys, when dealing with girls is yet another unintended consequence of feminism. When children were told that boys and girls were the same, when the ideal of a man being a protector of women was cast aside, when boys no longer aspired to be gentlemen, when men no longer stood and gave their seat to a woman...what we have today is the result.

 

Well said! Glad to see others raising their sons that way too!

[WTMindy]

My son's select boys soccer team just played the girls select soccer team as a scrimage (our son's coach is the coach of both teams). My husband said the boys were very gentlemanly and played very gently with the girls (and fortunately for his ego, they beat them soundly. :-)) But, dh was impressed with how the boys treated the girls.

[Melinda in VT]

 

When they are at a physical disadvantage, yes, it is fair. When you start moving beyond the 11-12yo range, boys can definitely win any confrontation with most girls. I don't allow hitting with my boys or my dd, so that point is moot here. BUT I think there has to be lessons in chivalry and being the protector of females for boys so they can see how things SHOULD be handled, regardless of how our society has warped it all.

 

I'll agree that you shouldn't engage physically with an opponent who is at a physical disadvantage.

 

As for the rest . . . chivalry tends to leave me cold. I'd far rather be treated as a partner and an equal.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Melinda in VT
fixed quotes

[lionfamily1999]

I'll agree that you shouldn't engage physically with an opponent who is at a physical disadvantage.

 

As for the rest . . . chivalry tends to leave me cold. I'd far rather be treated as a partner and an equal.

Maybe the biggest difference is that my oldest child is a girl and she was offended that I would prtect her from her little brother, under the premise that she's a girl.

 

We HAVE discussed picking on someone smaller than yourself. And I completely agree with you on that. Should my dses grow to be Thors, womankind will be safe.

 

My boys open doors for everyone, so does my dd. Chilvary isn't just for men :) My dd can be rather gallant at times.

[PineFarmMom]

I'll agree that you shouldn't engage physically with an opponent who is at a physical disadvantage.

 

As for the rest . . . chivalry tends to leave me cold. I'd far rather be treated as a partner and an equal.

 

Not me. I like chivalry. I know that my son's wives will be glad that I've raised them that way. :)

[joannqn]

I treat both sexes as equal. You don't name call, pick on, shove, hit, or otherwise bully anyone. I also would expect, though, that my kids defend themselves as necessary and defend those who are in some way weaker than themselves and need defending.

 

For example, my kids talked about how a neighborhood girl (you know the one if you've been reading my other thread) is sometimes mean to other kids. Not only are my kids not to emulate her behavior, but I expect them to stand up for the other kids. We talked about telling her that she wasn't being nice and playing with the other kid instead so that she'd get the point that being a bully wasn't desirable. Basically, you can play nice or you'll be left behind.

[Marylou]

Not me. I like chivalry. I know that my son's wives will be glad that I've raised them that way. :)

 

:iagree:

 

"Cold" is waiting beside your car door in a snow storm while your husband/father/brother remebers he should open it for you!

 

I LOVE being treated like a lady!

[pqr]

My ds13 got into his first fight last spring defending a girl. He stood up to a bully.

 

 

Now that is a boy who will grow into a man. You should be very proud.

[Impish]

Old values are still important for some of us. With the exception of my sister (and sisters do not count) if I had ever picked on a girl I would not have been able to sit for a month. Now I was the only one who could pick on my sister, had anyone else done so there would have been blood.

 

I was raised in a culture where boys were expected to fight. We fought fairly but all boys fought and it was part of growing into a man. I can not concieve of a boy, in my childhood culture, ever hitting a girl. The rest of us would have torn his head off. Only a sissy would hit a girl and no boy would bear the shame of that.

 

This is how I raise my sons.

 

The collapse of basic manners, on the part of boys, when dealing with girls is yet another unintended consequence of feminism. When children were told that boys and girls were the same, when the ideal of a man being a protector of women was cast aside, when boys no longer aspired to be gentlemen, when men no longer stood and gave their seat to a woman...what we have today is the result.

pqr, this is exactly what I'm talking about, and the way I was raised, and how I raise my kids. Its also the kind of man I married. I love that my husband is my protector. It has *nothing* to do with him seeing me as 'lesser than' and I've never ever understood that line of reasoning. Ever. Being protective and considerate are part of what I looked for in a mate, and not ever something that I considered to be because I was 'weak'. I couldn't have survived single parenthood by being weak, lol! I believe that God made Man and Woman differently specifically for this. Man was created larger so that he could protect Woman, be the hunter/gatherer. Woman was meant to be the softer, nurterer. I sincerely believe that. I don't see that as being an insult to anyone in any fashion, or anyone being 'lesser than' or being incapable of anything.

 

Equal rights, I'm all for. No human being was meant to be lesser than another. No human being was meant to have more worth, more power, more rights than another, period. I simply don't see how or why equal rights should have cost society basic manners as well.

[Tiff in TX]

 

 

I LOVE being treated like a lady!

 

:iagree:

I am quite happy belonging to the fairer sex.

[Melinda in VT]

Equal rights, I'm all for. No human being was meant to be lesser than another. No human being was meant to have more worth, more power, more rights than another, period. I simply don't see how or why equal rights should have cost society basic manners as well.

 

 

Well, I don't think "not picking on girls" as you said in your original post is the same thing as "basic manners."

 

The boy on your daughter's soccer team behaved horribly. His behavior would have been just as horrible had she been a boy.

 

I expect my boys and my girls to treat those around them with respect and kindness. To hold the door open for those behind them, regardless of the sex of the person. To both protect and nurture, as the situation demands.

[KidsHappen]

I teach my children not to ever touch another person without their explicit permission. Of course, this leads to a lot of the "I'm not touching you" rountine but they don't touch other people. I do not even hug my kids without their permission. My pre-pubescent girls do play on a co-ed soccer team and I consider the fact that the child plays soccer to be explicit consent for the expected physical interaction that happens in that sport. Once my girls reach puberty they will not be playing any contact sports with the opposite sex. Period. And I really don't care whether they like it or not. My house, my rules. Finally, I guarantee that there would be hell to pay if someone else touched my kids without their permission regardless of their sex.

[elegantlion]

Old values are still important for some of us. With the exception of my sister (and sisters do not count) if I had ever picked on a girl I would not have been able to sit for a month. Now I was the only one who could pick on my sister, had anyone else done so there would have been blood.

 

I was raised in a culture where boys were expected to fight. We fought fairly but all boys fought and it was part of growing into a man. I can not concieve of a boy, in my childhood culture, ever hitting a girl. The rest of us would have torn his head off. Only a sissy would hit a girl and no boy would bear the shame of that.

 

This is how I raise my sons.

 

The collapse of basic manners, on the part of boys, when dealing with girls is yet another unintended consequence of feminism. When children were told that boys and girls were the same, when the ideal of a man being a protector of women was cast aside, when boys no longer aspired to be gentlemen, when men no longer stood and gave their seat to a woman...what we have today is the result.

 

:iagree: Chivalry is not dead in my house. Believe me I can stand up for myself, I inherited my mother's sharp tongue, but when my dh or ds stand up for me, I love it.

[VanessaS]

Maybe the biggest difference is that my oldest child is a girl and she was offended that I would protect her from her little brother, under the premise that she's a girl.

She will always be a girl, but her brother won't always be "little". Sometimes children are short-sighted.

 

Chivalry (and not just good manners) is about showing respect to the female sex and acknowledging the unique beauty of their defining traits. Women have a civilizing and domesticating influence that men (used to) appreciate.

I think it's a good thing, just as I appreciate men for what they are.

 

Equal does not mean identical. Touching, fighting, or wrestling with a girl is not the same as with a boy. It just isn't. Imagine if you came home and your teenage son was pinning the neighbor's daughter on the floor with his body. Even if they were "just wrestling" would you think it was okay? Really? No, seriously. I mean... really?

[Marie in Oh]

my oldest is a boy and then we have 5 girls. He knows and feels responsible for his little sisters. I would expect some thumping of the next closest kid was a brother. But he has been trained that he doesn't thump his sisters. He once protected his next youngest sister at the park once when a bully was trying to push her off of a jungle gym, saying "no girls alowed." Ds pushed him off and said, "Leave my sister alone." He was 6 at the time. We applauded his behavior. I am sure others would not agree and that is fine. But yes, I still think there is room for the protection of women and girls. I also don't think I am equal in all ways to men, so it doesn't bother me in the least when my dh attempts to protect me.

[AndyJoy]

Ok, this turned into an essay, so feel free to skip or skim.

 

Some may see it as contradictory, but I believe in both gender equality and God-given gender roles. I don't think equality means that men and women should do everything the same and compete against each other in every arena. I don't think men and women are the same physically, emotionally, etc. and allowances should be made for the differences. I also think boys/men have a God-given responsibility to physically protect women. I think girls/women have a responsibility to not tear down/mock/emasculate men. I am concerned that when pubescent boys & girls complete physically that tensions arise that are not fair or healthy for boys or girls. I plan to teach my boy(s) that you don't hit girls. Not because that individual girl is necessarily "weaker" than him, but because it violates his role as a true boy/man to physically dominate a girl/woman.

 

My sister and I were tough, strong, take charge girls. We had no brothers, and my dad the sports fanatic taught us to play hard. We never shied away from completing with boys. At 12 I loved co-ed soccer and had no problems hanging tough. At 13 I was unfairly cut from the co-ed U14 team because the coach didn't want any girls, though I was definitely above the middle of the pack ability-wise. Looking back on it, I'm kind of glad that I was cut. There was already some tension with some of the boys because of my skills, and I could see it definitely escalating at that age.

 

Unfortunately, my sister even took/takes it to the level of taunting guys who were/are physically weaker than her. At age 7 she could beat any boy up to age 14 in arm wrestling. She was a fast runner, fearless tree climber, and great hoop shooter. However, she was also a beautiful girly girl. She loved to rub it in boys' faces that she could beat them at anything, and do it with perfect hair! This always rubbed me wrong when I was a teen, but it wasn't until later that I realized how demeaning this was to growing boys whose greatest fear was to be thought of as wimps or not real men. Having a gorgeous girl beat the pants off you and laugh about it must have been horrible for them!

 

When I was in 6th grade, I was the tallest girl in my class and only 2 boys were taller than me. Thus, when my PE teacher split boys and girls to play two separate games and there was an odd number of players, she had me play with the boys. I thought nothing of it; the boys, however, were not impressed. After I blocked several of Matt's shots, the other boys began taunting him, "Oh, you got owned by a GIRL!" Of course nothing was said when he got around me. Finally, he and his best friend got fed up with it, and they cornered me and said some nasty s*xual things regarding my contact with him on the court. Obviously, these boys were totally out of line. Looking back on the situation, however, I realized that Matt was in a difficult position. If he beat me, who cares, I was a girl, it was expected. If I beat him, he got beat by a girl. That's a really bad place for a 12 year old who is trying to grow into a strong man to be. I don't want to put my boys or girls in that position. Of course I want to teach them to lose graciously no matter the opponent's gender, but I don't want to set them up for situations where they feel the need to dominate the other gender to prove anything.

 

My sister doesn't see her role as a woman as any different as that of a man. She's digested the attitude that men & women are equal in everything and should do anything and everything the same. This has caused problems with boyfriends who want to be chivalrous, but she won't let them because she has to prove that she can do everything herself. I, however, LOVE letting my husband be my provider, protector, shield and defender. I was a bossy, no-nonsense, scare-the-boys-with-my-confidence teen, but I'm relishing being a partner and a wife to my husband and a woman who feels safe with him! I love being able to depend on him to mow the lawn, pump the gas, drive in heavy traffic, put together bookshelves, etc. Can I do all these things? Yes, and I have, but I love letting him take care of me and feel more like a whole woman because of it.

[Lizzie in Ma]

Old values are still important for some of us. With the exception of my sister (and sisters do not count) if I had ever picked on a girl I would not have been able to sit for a month. Now I was the only one who could pick on my sister, had anyone else done so there would have been blood.

 

I was raised in a culture where boys were expected to fight. We fought fairly but all boys fought and it was part of growing into a man. I can not concieve of a boy, in my childhood culture, ever hitting a girl. The rest of us would have torn his head off. Only a sissy would hit a girl and no boy would bear the shame of that.

 

This is how I raise my sons.

 

The collapse of basic manners, on the part of boys, when dealing with girls is yet another unintended consequence of feminism. When children were told that boys and girls were the same, when the ideal of a man being a protector of women was cast aside, when boys no longer aspired to be gentlemen, when men no longer stood and gave their seat to a woman...what we have today is the result.

 

:iagree:

[Danestress]

I really don't like kids picking on each other. Period. I have three sons, and I don't buy the, "It's just the way boys are" thing. A little ribbing, fine. But bullying? Pushing? Shoving? No way.

 

One of my sons is a developing junior tennis player. He plays almost every day, and regularly plays girls. These are girls who are really dedicated to their sports and are training with him for hours a time. I have never witnessed any problems *ever* with boys or girls on the team treating each other badly. Sure, of kids have the occasional battle with their emotions when the going gets tough, but it's not really a "boy/girl" thing. My sons don't have sisters or girls they hang out with much, and I think this has been a good experience for him. I will say that kids are matched for play more according to ability than age, though. My son has been beaten by girls younger than him and has beaten girls older than him, and it's not a big deal. He hates to lose, of course, but it's good to get used to that.

 

My other son swims. Boys and girls don't compete against each other in swimming, but the train together. A lot of the girls he trains with are faster than he is. It doesn't seem to bother him.

 

Edited to say that while tennis is really a "gladiator, tough it out sport" it's not a contact sport, nor is swimming. I would NOT let my sons play a sport with a girl where they had much contact or opportunity to hurt them. Wrestling? Football? I don't think I would go for that. I do talk to my boys about how girls are different and how they need to show kindness, but the girls they compete with are so competent and serious that it's not really a problem.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Danestress

[KingM]

It seems like what some of you are saying is that fighting, brawling, crotch kicks, etc., are okay when it's boy vs. boy, but not okay if a girl is involved.

 

I grew up in a community much like what you described. Great for the girls, knowing they wouldn't be physically attacked, but pretty poor for a lot of boys. My elementary school was on the opposite side of some baseball diamonds from the junior high and it wasn't uncommon to cross paths with some meaner bully three or four years older. It didn't matter if a teacher or other adult was passing by, or if cars were driving by, nobody would intervene, even as you were having your books scattered, being thrown to the ground, or even punched.

 

"Ah, boys will be boys," I'm sure they were thinking.

 

Imagine if you came home and your teenage son was pinning the neighbor's daughter on the floor with his body. Even if they were "just wrestling" would you think it was okay? Really? No, seriously. I mean... really?

 

But if you came home and your teenage son was pinning the neighbor's son on the floor with his body this would be okay?

[lionfamily1999]

She will always be a girl, but her brother won't always be "little". Sometimes children are short-sighted.

 

Chivalry (and not just good manners) is about showing respect to the female sex and acknowledging the unique beauty of their defining traits. Women have a civilizing and domesticating influence that men (used to) appreciate.

I think it's a good thing, just as I appreciate men for what they are.

 

Equal does not mean identical. Touching, fighting, or wrestling with a girl is not the same as with a boy. It just isn't. Imagine if you came home and your teenage son was pinning the neighbor's daughter on the floor with his body. Even if they were "just wrestling" would you think it was okay? Really? No, seriously. I mean... really?

I would not be okay if I came home and found my sons wrestling each other in the living room. I would not be okay if I found my son wrestling another boy in my living room. As for horse play, m'eh, I horse play with the boys, heck, my dad will still throw a frog my way every once in awhile, or better, a charlie horse.

 

Now, maybe the women here are tougher, but I've known quite a few girls that beat the living day lights out of boys. I've known more female bullies than male bullies and if my sons ran up against the likes of them, I would have no problem with them defending themselves.

 

My dcs all know that anywhere a swim suit covers is off limits. IOW, they don't touch each other's rear ends and they certainly would not touch a girl on her chest or between her legs. I don't need to teach them that all women are weak little waifs to teach them to respect other people. I would hope my dcs would be well mannered and polite, regardless of the person's sex.