Update - I am livid, talk me down please...

[kiana]

Ok, so good news.  Because of the snow last week we just got an email they have extended drop/add until Friday.  This gives us a little more time  :hurray:   If this isn't sorted out completely by Wednesday then I'm calling people and taking names.  Right now she is signed up for an extra class so she won't lose her full time status.  

 

Very smart decision. I do hope things work out, because this is honestly one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard of. 

[RootAnn]

Thanks for the update. I wish the Dean/Advisor had gotten on the phone/email right there & right then with her in his office. It sounds like the Spanish teacher, Spanish dept head, and several others need to all get on a conference call or group email and get this straightened out.

 

I am also glad the drop/add has been extended. This type of situation shouldn't even occur because it causes undue stress to your daughter. (If she had a chronic illness, this would likely cause a flare up!) What a mess.

[shawthorne44]

I need to know how this turns out, so posting.  

[eternalsummer]

Crazy!  I wonder if the professor has taken a dislike to her or for some reason wants to make one more space in the class for someone she knows and so just randomly picked your DD to drop her.

 

Fwiw, a 5 on the Spanish IB test is not a great score, esp. if the language was taken Standard Level.  It's like getting a 3 on the AP, maybe, or barely a 4.  7 is the max score for those tests.  A 5 will usually get you some credit, though, and definitely 4 years plus a 5 should have her friend through at least 2 semesters of college Spanish, so I dunno.

[Ann.without.an.e]

Sometimes you seriously can't make things up that are as unbelievable as what really goes on.  If this were written in a fiction novel, we'd all be shaking our heads in disbelief.  (The ole "Truth is Stranger than Fiction" in action!)

 

Editing because we were typing at the same time.  I'm glad there's more time to get this worked out and I sure hope the Professor doesn't take it out on your daughter.  One wonders what she has problems with TBH.

 

 

You aren't kidding.  I was hesitant to even state all of the details because it seems so far out there  :lol:   But, yes, this has been our real day, no stretch in details  :mellow:

[creekland]

You aren't kidding.  I was hesitant to even state all of the details because it seems so far out there  :lol:   But, yes, this has been our real day, no stretch in details  :mellow:

 

Oh some things one knows are definitely true because no one would have thought to make it up...  :lol:

[Ann.without.an.e]

Crazy!  I wonder if the professor has taken a dislike to her or for some reason wants to make one more space in the class for someone she knows and so just randomly picked your DD to drop her.

 

Fwiw, a 5 on the Spanish IB test is not a great score, esp. if the language was taken Standard Level.  It's like getting a 3 on the AP, maybe, or barely a 4.  7 is the max score for those tests.  A 5 will usually get you some credit, though, and definitely 4 years plus a 5 should have her friend through at least 2 semesters of college Spanish, so I dunno.

 

 

Oh, I thought IB was scored like AP  :lol:   Nevermind then.

 

I have questioned dd on the dislike thing.  She has literally had no interactions with this prof until today.  I have definitely wondered if she is just trying to make room for someone else.  

Edited January 22, 2018 by Attolia

[kiana]

Or if she has your dd mixed up with someone else. 

[JanetC]

If it doesn't make sense, ask pointed questions. This document says X, which should mean she's fine. What are we missing? Where is the most up to date policy? Make them explain it to you.

[Ann.without.an.e]

Or if she has your dd mixed up with someone else. 

 

 

This I have greatly wondered about!  

[creekland]

This I have greatly wondered about!  

 

Me too, until you said she singled her out to ask her why she was there today.

[Ann.without.an.e]

nm

Edited January 22, 2018 by Attolia

[Ann.without.an.e]

Me too, until you said she singled her out to ask her why she was there today.

 

 

I know, right?  Now that I think of it though, dd received an email from the prof this morning saying that dd shouldn't be in the class so dd went early and approached her to ask about it.  Then she stayed for class.  That is when the prof pointed her out and said that she could audit.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Attolia

[kiana]

If she says she could audit, it's not to make space for someone else; audit still takes up a seat.

 

I am finding this more and more boggling. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

If she says she could audit, it's not to make space for someone else; audit still takes up a seat.

 

I am finding this more and more boggling. 

 

 

I don't think she actually used the word audit.  I apologize.  She said "you can listen in" and I thought those meant the same.

[8filltheheart]

If she says she could audit, it's not to make space for someone else; audit still takes up a seat.

 

I am finding this more and more boggling.

It seems like they have a record of something that does not exist. I wonder if there is a clerical error somewhere giving her credit for someone else's courses or test scores. Otherwise, the teacher seems totally whacked.

[eternalsummer]

I can understand why they don't want her to take a course that is something she's already covered. What I don't understand is 1.  WTH doesn't Duke have placement tests?  This is insane. and 2. If they don't have placement tests, and the way they sort placement for a course is how many years you've had of it previously, and she meets the years requirement, what is the problem?  This has to have come up before.

[JanetC]

I can understand a student being respectful to professors and deans. It's okay for you to be the persistent one constantly asking questions and pushing for a resolution here,

[eternalsummer]

Why is it a hard class to get into?  Just because the sections fill up?

[Ann.without.an.e]

Why is it a hard class to get into? Just because the sections fill up?

Because Duke seems to have a lack of spanish profs right now and a general lack of classes available in the Spanish department. There is always a wait list for Spanish classes. It is crazy

Edited January 22, 2018 by Attolia

[Ann.without.an.e]

Does your daughter have a common first and last name? My son does, and in his class is another young man who shares his first and last name (think: Bob Smith). It has been no end to issues. But he is in his last semester now, so this won't be an issue too much longer for us... unless it affects graduation/diploma.

Wow, that sounds tough. No, she doesn’t have a common name at all.

[OneStepAtATime]

Does your daughter have a common first and last name? My son does, and in his class is another young man who shares his first and last name (think: Bob Smith). It has been no end to issues. But he is in his last semester now, so this won't be an issue too much longer for us... unless it affects graduation/diploma.

This happened to my dad.  Another guy with a nearly identical name, same grade level, taking nearly the same classes, was getting bad grades, skipping classes, got some conduct reports, etc.  My grandparents were sent all this information as if it was Dad.  They were horrified.  They had spent every dime they had to get him into college.  They didn't have many financial resources.  Dad was so confused when my grandpa called to chew him out.  He had no idea.  And when he went to talk to someone he found out he was being put on academic probation and didn't even know it.  It took quite a bit of effort to straighten it all out and it definitely took both Dad and my grandparents working actively through the system, politely but firmly not backing down, to get it fixed.

[Ann.without.an.e]

This happened to my dad.  Another guy with a nearly identical name, same grade level, taking nearly the same classes, was getting bad grades, skipping classes, got some conduct reports, etc.  My grandparents were sent all this information as if it was Dad.  They were horrified.  They had spent every dime they had to get him into college.  They didn't have many financial resources.  Dad was so confused when my grandpa called to chew him out.  He had no idea.  And when he went to talk to someone he found out he was being put on academic probation and didn't even know it.  It took quite a bit of effort to straighten it all out and it definitely took both Dad and my grandparents working actively through the system, politely but firmly not backing down, to get it fixed.

 

 

 

Wow, just wow.  What an ordeal :(

[OneStepAtATime]

Because Duke seems to have a lack of spanish profs right now and a general lack of classes available in the Spanish department. There is always a wait list for Spanish classes. It is crazy

:grouphug:

 

Based on your additional posts I would be fighting tooth and nail to keep her from withdrawing from that class.  Don't let her withdraw from that class.  Since it is hard to get in and she is supposed to have that credit for her summer program, she needs to dig in her heels and keep attending.  Do all the classwork/homework but don't turn it in if the professor is refusing to grade it.  Just keep it all with her until this is fixed.  There must be a clerical error somewhere.  Whatever the issue, it may take time to figure it out.  In the meantime she needs to stand her ground and keep attending.  If the professor balks she can explain politely but firmly that there appears to have been an error somewhere, she does meet the stated criteria for the class, and she is working through the system to correct the problem but she is supposed to be in that class and will continue to monitor the class while things are straightened out so that she does not get behind.  She can turn in any assignments once this is fixed.  And yes, I am remaining optimistic that this can be fixed.

Edited January 23, 2018 by OneStepAtATime

[katilac]

Well in my experience they don’t have them. I haven’t polled every university in the country.

What the profs have done, again, in my experience, is meet with the student.

 

I think we're using different terminology; meeting with a professor to gauge your ability is a placement test. At the schools I'm familiar with, you can only test out of the basic 101 class without a face-to-face meeting. 

 

I really don't feel like it is appropriate for me to contact anyone higher until dd has heard more from the emails she has sent.  I mean, if she doesn't hear from them tomorrow then that is different. I will start calling.  No one seems to understand why this is happening.  I feel like giving them time to sort it out first is respectful.

 

I disagree only because time is so short to get this sorted - but now I see you have additional time, whew! 

 

It seems like they have a record of something that does not exist. I wonder if there is a clerical error somewhere giving her credit for someone else's courses or test scores. Otherwise, the teacher seems totally whacked.

 

I have a weird Paypal thing going on. dh got an email about an automatic payment that was supposed to come from my account (and thus I should get the email). We have different last names. And, as it turns out, the payment is not coming from EITHER account, we checked our activity plus checked with Paypal, but dh is being notified as if it was. They're billing the wrong person AND using the wrong email, which isn't even associated with my account? I just, I have no idea. I'm going to call Paypal again with a transaction number. But yeah, weird stuff happens. 

[katilac]

:grouphug:

 

Based on your additional posts I would be fighting tooth and nail to keep her from withdrawing from that class.  Don't let her withdraw from that class.  

 

Eleventy! To this and everything else in this post. 

[*LC]

Have you seen the original email from the professor telling her she shouldn't be in the class?

 

This whole thing, including the response from language person she emailed,makes perfect sense if they are wanting her in Spanish 101. (I don't like to make assumptions, but this could be a reaction to foreign language on a homeschool transcript and the school assuming she didn't have an opportunity to speak the language.)

 

Add me to the list of people who are not impressed with her dean, he should have been the one to email or call the language department. An irritated dean can accomplish a lot more than a bewildered freshman.

[GoodGrief]

If it doesn't make sense, ask pointed questions. This document says X, which should mean she's fine. What are we missing? Where is the most up to date policy? Make them explain it to you.

 

This is definitely where my young adults tend to fall short when trying to work out these sorts of things. They also prefer to e mail rather than call or talk to someone in person.

 

This is going to be a great learning experience for your daughter in persistence and being a self-advocate, but super frustrating.

[OneStepAtATime]

Have you seen the original email from the professor telling her she shouldn't be in the class?

 

This whole thing, including the response from language person she emailed,makes perfect sense if they are wanting her in Spanish 101. (I don't like to make assumptions, but this could be a reaction to foreign language on a homeschool transcript and the school assuming she didn't have an opportunity to speak the language.)

 

Add me to the list of people who are not impressed with her dean, he should have been the one to email or call the language department. An irritated dean can accomplish a lot more than a bewildered freshman.

Actually it makes no sense whatsoever if what they are wanting is for her to drop down to 101.  Why would they be trying to put her in 101 if the stated reason she could not be in the 102 class was that she "had too much Spanish"?  Or are you thinking the student misunderstood?

 

I agree, the Dean dropped the ball. 

[*LC]

If it doesn't make sense, ask pointed questions. This document says X, which should mean she's fine. What are we missing? Where is the most up to date policy? Make them explain it to you.

Ask "what should be the first Spanish class should I take" in a follow-up to the response she sent to the language department.

[Ann.without.an.e]

Have you seen the original email from the professor telling her she shouldn't be in the class?

 

This whole thing, including the response from language person she emailed,makes perfect sense if they are wanting her in Spanish 101. (I don't like to make assumptions, but this could be a reaction to foreign language on a homeschool transcript and the school assuming she didn't have an opportunity to speak the language.)

 

Add me to the list of people who are not impressed with her dean, he should have been the one to email or call the language department. An irritated dean can accomplish a lot more than a bewildered freshman.

 

 

Actually it makes no sense whatsoever if what they are wanting is for her to drop down to 101.  Why would they be trying to put her in 101 if the stated reason she could not be in the 102 class was that she "had too much Spanish"?  Or are you thinking the student misunderstood?

 

I agree, the Dean dropped the ball. 

 

 

 

I am copying the actual (name edited out) email from the prof this morning.

 

Hola ____________,

 

I hope this message finds you well after this unexpected snow vacation! I am writing to you to let you know that you actually place out of 102, as your prior experience shows. If you have any questions let me know, and remember that drop-add is coming up quickly on the 24^th.

 

Un saludo cordial,

__________

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Attolia

[Ann.without.an.e]

DD's response to the prof email was this...

 

Hola __________,

 

Is it possible for me to stay in 102? I am enrolled in Duke in ______ this summer, which counts for 203/204. I don't feel that I can go to Spain without having studied Spanish for a year. Additionally, I don't feel that my comprehension and speaking skills are up to par. 

As for my previous Spanish experience, I went through Spanish III in high school, but I consulted the guidelines online when I selected 102 and really think this is the level I belong in. 

 

Thanks,

__________________

[eternalsummer]

If she places out of 102, will they give her credit for it (or at least tell the Duke in Spain people that she can be counted as having taken it, since her experience covers the class)?  That might be ideal.

[Ann.without.an.e]

The prof then emailed back with this reply

 

 

Buenos días __________,

 

I understand your concern, but I must follow the program’s placement guidelines. You can get an interview with the program directors at spanish@duke.edu as confirmation if you feel this is incorrect. Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

Un saludo,

_______________________

 

 

ETA which we then contacted but they said they didn't have an interview available soon and this needs to be sorted out ASAP.

 

After this email (above), dd went to class early to talk to her and she told dd she could not be in the class, that she needed to drop it, but she could listen in.  None of her friends who have taken 3 and 4 in high school are being asked to interview.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Attolia

[eternalsummer]

What are the enrollment requirements for 203/204? If she meets those, why did Duke in Spain want her to take 102?  (and more importantly, why wasn't she placed into 203 at the start of last semester by her advisor)?

[OneStepAtATime]

 

I am copying the actual (name edited out) email from the prof this morning.

 

Hola ____________,

 

I hope this message finds you well after this unexpected snow vacation! I am writing to you to let you know that you actually place out of 102, as your prior experience shows. If you have any questions let me know, and remember that drop-add is coming up quickly on the 24^th.

 

Un saludo cordial,

__________

 

So yes it is definitely not because they think she is not prepared for 102. 

 

It sounds almost like the professor really got confused and dropped the ball somewhere.    Where is the professor getting the information that your daughter must drop the class?  Since this is supposed to go through channels and get approval from higher up, and higher ups apparently had no clue this was happening, surely the professor didn't just take it upon herself to randomly drop students she thinks are overqualified for the class?

 

Can your daughter write a very clearly laid out letter asking for specific details as to where the professor got the information she is basing this on and what channels she went through officially to drop your daughter from the class?  Maybe you could write an example letter for your daughter to use as a template if you feel she may not be clear enough or strong enough?

[Ann.without.an.e]

What are the enrollment requirements for 203/204? If she meets those, why did Duke in Spain want her to take 102?  (and more importantly, why wasn't she placed into 203 at the start of last semester by her advisor)?

 

 

I dont really know/understand this.  I know that her continued enrollment in Duke in Spain was contingent on the successful completion of 102.  She signed a statement.  Maybe they would accept the fact that she seems to be "tested out" of the material?  I have no idea.  I would have said surely it would count since this is beyond her control but now I am not sure about anything at all.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Attolia

[Ann.without.an.e]

So yes it is definitely not because they think she is not prepared for 102. 

 

It sounds almost like the professor really got confused and dropped the ball somewhere.    Where is the professor getting the information that your daughter must drop the class?  Since this is supposed to go through channels and get approval from higher up, and higher ups apparently had no clue this was happening, surely the professor didn't just take it upon herself to randomly drop students she thinks are overqualified for the class?

 

Can your daughter write a very clearly laid out letter asking for specific details as to where the professor got the information she is basing this on and what channels she went through officially to drop your daughter from the class?  Maybe you could write an example letter for your daughter to use as a template if you feel she may not be clear enough or strong enough?

 

 

She is a grad student.  This is her first year.  I am just not sure she actually knows what in the world she is doing.  When the guidelines say she needs to have completed 2 years of spanish for this class and this prof claims to be "following guidelines" but isn't following them with anyone else in dd's position or anyone with even more experience than dd.  

[eternalsummer]

When I read Duke's placement/credit page, here: https://romancestudies.duke.edu/undergraduate/languages/spanish/placement-credit

 

It definitely looks like she belongs in 203, or maybe 204 (but probably 203).  Certainly those other kids in her class with 4 years of Spanish and a 5 on the IB belong in 203.  Why did the department or their advisors fail to communicate this to students before they enrolled?  It all seems really disorganized.

[eternalsummer]

As it seems like she'd definitely place out of 102 if she did interview with someone from the department, maybe Duke in Spain can be persuaded that she doesn't need it (and she can get speaking practice online, or something).

[Ann.without.an.e]

As it seems like she'd definitely place out of 102 if she did interview with someone from the department, maybe Duke in Spain can be persuaded that she doesn't need it (and she can get speaking practice online, or something).

 

 

 

Her current plan is to just drop the class altogether as soon as she finds out that Spain will be ok with that.  She is done with it all.  The funny thing, she had considered not minoring in writing but in spanish (which is a bad idea for her, she is a great writer) and I think this experience with the language department has cured that desire.

[eternalsummer]

I just can't fathom why they don't do placement tests, it baffles me.  Surely there are other kids in her section that don't belong there if she doesn't belong there, and moving them on to the right section (or having placed them correctly in the first place) would have eased the wait list for this class for people who really do need it!  I hope the Duke in Spain people come through and recognize the right thing to do in this situation.

 

 

[whitestavern]

I feel so badly that your dd has to deal with this. What a mess. And honestly, that teacher has very poor communication skills. She should've given your dd very clear reasons why she was being asked to drop the class as well as what options were available to her. As a parent of a hs senior I do hope this isn't the norm as far as what to expect from college professors.

[8filltheheart]

I just can't fathom why they don't do placement tests, it baffles me. Surely there are other kids in her section that don't belong there if she doesn't belong there, and moving them on to the right section (or having placed them correctly in the first place) would have eased the wait list for this class for people who really do need it!.

What is ridiculous is that a school like Duke has such arbitrary guidelines allowing students to self-place and then seems to overreact if the professor doesn't agree??? The guidelines don't specify that she has to take 201. It seems like it is up to the student to decide if they feel like they covered and mastered the material in 102.

[Ann.without.an.e]

What is ridiculous is that a school like Duke has such arbitrary guidelines allowing students to self-place and then seems to overreact if the professor doesn't agree??? The guidelines don't specify that she has to take 201. It seems like it is up to the student to decide if they feel like they covered and mastered the material in 102.

 

 

It is up to the student and then they can be shifted around if the teacher feels they are misplaced.  But not two days before drop/add when profs are refusing to let a student join the class.

[Ann.without.an.e]

Ok, We have an official email from the Professor that DD's dean suggested could resolve this matter and we have answers.

 

This is simply a lack of communication with dd's professor.  She wasn't supposed to just remove her from the class and tell her that her level was too high.  She was supposed to tell DD to schedule an interview.  

 

Dear ___________,

Let me assure that we just want what is best for you, and we know that Spain will offer you a great experience. You will not be dropped from the program.

It is our responsibility to make sure you are placed correctly in 102. Your instructor was supposed to send you to do an interview because she needed to verify your level; it is your 3 years of experience and your performance the few days of classes. 

 

I could see you tomorrow between _______________ at ________________Drive. Let me know. Otherwise, please call 919-________ to set up a placement appointment.

 

Best

Prof. _________________

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Attolia

[creekland]

Is the plan to just put her in the 201 (or equivalent) class if she is deemed to be past 102?  Or just waive the requirement for Spain this summer since it's met by prior experience?

[Ann.without.an.e]

Is the plan to just put her in the 201 (or equivalent) class if she is deemed to be past 102?  Or just waive the requirement for Spain this summer since it's met by prior experience?

 

 

They would consider her to have the equivalent fo 102 and cleared to go to Spain without an official 102 class.  

[MarkT]

Ok, so this is where we are....

 

 

She found an English class that would let her in. This means she is now overloaded and she will not lose her full time status.  

 

Her Dean/Advisor said "no way".  He says something, somewhere is terribly messed up.  He was extremely irritated that someone thought they could just remove her from a class without his permission.  He has to approve this kind of move.  He hasn't approved it.  No one has even asked him for approval.  Her class is still there in her schedule and in her registration portal. 

 

When she showed to class today the professor said, "oh, you are going to audit?".  She said that dd can't be in the class and she won't give her any grades for work but she is welcome to listen in.

 

I called the office for languages.  The lady said that sometimes they do require interviews and they can schedule one for her but not anytime in the next two days and drop/add ends Wednesday morning.  This is just super confusing because even according to their own guidelines, they only do this for Spanish 101.  Again, a friend has had 4 years and a perfect IB score and hasn't been asked to leave.

 

IMHO I would not want my student in this section - the instructor is already "prejudiced" against your daughter!

If you continue make sure she takes good "notes" to see if any "black-ball" is taking place.  Sorry this is a reality.

 

Hopefully you will have a good outcome.

[Ann.without.an.e]

IMHO I would not want my student in this section - the instructor is already "prejudiced" against your daughter!

If you continue make sure she takes good "notes" to see if any "black-ball" is taking place.  Sorry this is a reality.

 

Hopefully you will have a good outcome.

 

 

Yes, this is already in DD's mind.  It is one reason why she has decided that if she can still go to Spain without this class, she will drop it since she was able to add an english class.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Attolia