Is it possible to *teach* number sense?

[busymama7]

I've had two kids who just really struggle to have any sense of numbers at all. For instance my 11 year old was adding 5 numbers, all under 50 and her answer was over 1000. This does not trigger anything for her and when I point it out it just confuses her even more. She has no idea why I can or even should estimate it quickly in my head. Things like this happen nearly daily. I have other children who just get numbers and always have.

 

I wonder if my goal should just be drill and drill until she can do it correctly even if she has no idea what she's doing ( long division...ugh) or if it is possible to orient their brains to think more mathematically. She has other fanatic strengths. She's very artistic and her reading/language skills are quite high. For instance she insisted on listening to the Scarlett letter with her two high school age brothers and frequently explains things to them or jumps in with insights about the book etc.

 

I was hoping for maybe games or something. I'm not interested in switching curriculum. We are settled into cle and while she hates it and it takes a long time each day she is making huge improvements.

[lailasmum]

You could get the Ronit Bird books and work through the games/activities. My eldest is dyscalculic and has those problems. We also use Meister Cody but it is aimed at younger kids. I've found it takes radically longer for her to make progress than is normal but she is slowly improving. She just doesn't pick up on the things most people automatically would.

Edited October 27, 2016 by lailasmum

[wapiti]

While you're not interested in switching your math program, would you be interested in working on the side with the early stages of another program that strives to develop number sense?  I'm thinking along the lines of Miquon, cuisenaire rods, though perhaps others will have additional ideas.  ETA, Ronit Bird is just such an idea.

Edited October 27, 2016 by wapiti

[OneStepAtATime]

Look up materials for dyscalculia. I agree with the others regarding the Ronit Bird books and ebooks.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes, I think unless there is some sort of actual learning disability one can get better at number sense.  The difference might only be (with her vs you) that she might need to work on number sense explicitly.  Some people just get it, and some people need to have it explained and practice it. 

 

Number sense has not been automatic for me.  A lot of it has come from working very hard at it and with a lot of practice.  More and more of it starts to become clear to me with a lot of practice.  I guess we think if something doesn't come naturally we have some lack of ability.  I don't agree.

Now whether or not she has an interest in learning these things is another story and a more difficult issue to overcome.  I wouldn't give up on her.  I haven't given up on my "hates math" kid because I think his abilities are as strong, if not stronger, than his brother (math comes naturally to him, he doesn't have to work that hard at it, and he has a stronger sense for numbers). 

 

 

[mellifera33]

We like the Ronit Bird materials. We have used some of the ebooks, which use games to teach number sense.

 

Also, I haven't actually used it yet, but Prime Climb seems like it would be a useful number sense building game. I'm waiting for cyber Monday sales to pick it up. :)

SaveSave

Edited October 27, 2016 by mellifera33

[fralala]

I don't know if this is typical or applies to those with dyscalculia, but with my own children I seem to find an inverse relationship between drilling and number sense.

 

We play lots of games estimating everything. For my visual child, I signed her up for ST Math and then for awhile would make her guess about what the answer would be for every problem she did before doing it, and we would talk about how she was visualizing it (say, on a number line, or in groups, or whatever).

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't know if this is typical or applies to those with dyscalculia, but with my own children I seem to find an inverse relationship between drilling and number sense.

 

We play lots of games estimating everything. For my visual child, I signed her up for ST Math and then for awhile would make her guess about what the answer would be for every problem she did before doing it, and we would talk about how she was visualizing it (say, on a number line, or in groups, or whatever).

 

Yeah I think drilling is good for AFTER you learn some of the number sense.

[regentrude]

yes. It is possible.The most important tool for this is to ban calculators in math throughout high school, except for high school physics and math and standardized testing.

Getting familiar with numbers by doing calculations mentally or by hand is crucial.

That dos not have to be drill. Just playing with numbers goes a long way. And Memorizing times tables, perfect squares and perfect cubes.

[Rosie_0801]

Yep. We used Kate Snow's addition course to get her visualising the 10 frames, and CSMP maths. Without the CSMP, I don't think my dd would ever have got it. It's fabulous for kids whose non-verbal intelligence is higher than their verbal intelligence. 

 

I don't think there is any use in drilling until your dd understands. The drilling keeps it from falling out of their heads, but doesn't get it into their heads in the first place.

[Guest]

My 13yo son has severe dyscalculia (medically diagnosed), and he has absolutely no number sense whatsoever. Our ultimate math goal is just to have him "life ready", ie, able to manage simple monetary transactions (spending), understand time, etc.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Kinsa

[idnib]

I'll just add that my son has really good number sense, but long division was somehow really difficult for him to grasp. I think that's fairly common and you can come back to it later if needed.

 

Using Cuisinaire rods, base 10 blocks, and mapping problems on a number line all help, I've found.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Sometimes it is simpler than you think.  Some random numbers that you add up, those are just random numbers.  Put them in terms of money or something familiar and then it means something. 

 

Long division is the pits if your multiplication facts aren't mastered.  One way around that is to allow using a multiplication table.  That way you can focus on the procedure without having to also remember every multiplication fact.  It takes time for those to be solid, but you can still move forward. 

[Guest]

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Edited September 10, 2020 by Æthelthryth the Texan

[SanDiegoMom]

My daughter didn't have great number sense when she came home from PS, and always tried to use an algorithm for addition and subtraction rather than use mental math. So we worked through Singapore's sections on mental math and after that I just sit with her every day and talk her through different ways to solve a problem. (Mentally) She's gotten better, but occasionally she'll still give me an answer that's way off.

[MistyMountain]

My oldest has poor number sense. It is partially a weakness combined with poor methods that did not work on seeing the numbers enough. Her school uses Saxon and it is a poor fit. She can use the algorithm but not picture things in her head. I think it can be developed but it is not always easy. I am using Meister Cody for now and it is slow going. I might look for something else to try too. With my youngest I am working more on substidizing skills with ten frames and the abacus and hoping that will help. It seems to have with my middle child.

Edited October 28, 2016 by MistyMountain

[shinyhappypeople]

Yes, you can strengthen number sense.  

 

I had to go back to ground zero with my older DD last fall when she was in 7th grade.  I set aside her curriculum and decided to work on foundational skills, stuff that many students pick up intuitively.  I discovered that she wasn't able to subitize numbers above 2, so we started there.  Spending a few months just on building basic number sense reaped HUGE rewards.  

 

Last fall she was working at late 3rd/early 4th grade level with virtually no automaticity of math facts, even +0 or +1.  By this summer (so, about 2 years later) she should be ready for pre-algebra.   :auto: 

 

Take the time.  Repair the foundation.  

Edited October 28, 2016 by shinyhappypeople

[busymama7]

Wow lots of thoughts here! Thank you.

 

I have heard the term dyscalclia and do have kids with a dyslexia (none of them struggle with math at all!). I know I need to research it but don't know where to start. The ronit bird books look really good but pricey for right now. I will look at the library though.

 

I am ok with supplementing with something but she alread thinks she's bad at math and hates it so not another curriculum per se. I was hoping games that were just regular games but would help. We do love games. I just heard about Prime Climb just recently. Hope to add that to Christmas. I do have family math and the one for young kids. I will look through those too. I just don't know what I'm looking for. What she missing or what needs to be done.

Edited October 28, 2016 by busymama7

[shinyhappypeople]

Wow lots of thoughts here! Thank you.

 

I have heard the term dyscalclia and do have kris with a dyslexia (none of them struggle with math at all!). I know I need to research it but don't know where to start. The ronit bird books look really good but pricey for right now. I will look at the library though.

 

I am ok with supplementing with something but she alread thinks she's bad at math and hates it so not another curriculum per se. I was hoping games that were just regular games but would help. We do love games. I just heard about Prime Climb just recently. Hope to add that to Christmas. I do have family math and the one for young kids. I will look through those too. I just don't know what I'm looking for. What she missing or what needs to be done.

 

Right Start games.  Start at the beginning and check her foundational skills.  

[shinyhappypeople]

Kids can fake it to a degree in early math.  Fake it isn't the right phrase... they can sort of do it well enough that they can do the worksheets okay so it looks like they know what they're doing even when they don't fully understand it. Then, suddenly, the math gets a lot harder and that's when they really start to struggle.  It's a lot like the children with dyslexia who manage to read "okay" (sight reading and other strategies) until they hit a wall around 3rd grade.

[lailasmum]

Wow lots of thoughts here! Thank you.

 

I have heard the term dyscalclia and do have kids with a dyslexia (none of them struggle with math at all!). I know I need to research it but don't know where to start. The ronit bird books look really good but pricey for right now. I will look at the library though.

 

I am ok with supplementing with something but she alread thinks she's bad at math and hates it so not another curriculum per se. I was hoping games that were just regular games but would help. We do love games. I just heard about Prime Climb just recently. Hope to add that to Christmas. I do have family math and the one for young kids. I will look through those too. I just don't know what I'm looking for. What she missing or what needs to be done.

There are some resources on Ronit Bird's website. This video explains dyscalculia. 

[Rosie_0801]

Wow lots of thoughts here! Thank you.

 

I have heard the term dyscalclia and do have kids with a dyslexia (none of them struggle with math at all!). I know I need to research it but don't know where to start. The ronit bird books look really good but pricey for right now. I will look at the library though.

 

I am ok with supplementing with something but she alread thinks she's bad at math and hates it so not another curriculum per se. I was hoping games that were just regular games but would help. We do love games. I just heard about Prime Climb just recently. Hope to add that to Christmas. I do have family math and the one for young kids. I will look through those too. I just don't know what I'm looking for. What she missing or what needs to be done.

 

Have a look at CSMP. It doesn't look like regular maths.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Another thing I do with long division is to draw a line from every number being brought down.  I showed my kid that way to start and he just does it that way on his own. I see nothing wrong with that if it helps him to stay organized. 

[MerryAtHope]

I am ok with supplementing with something but she alread thinks she's bad at math and hates it so not another curriculum per se. I was hoping games that were just regular games but would help. We do love games. 

 

A lot of games incorporate math--I list out several on my blog that we enjoyed as games but that also help with practicing math facts. 

 

I agree with practicing estimation skills directly, and also with directly showing kids how estimation helps. Some kids won't just "get this" automatically, but that doesn't mean they can't get better at it. Hang in there!

[Alexigail]

I only developed good number sense through teaching Singapore to my own kids. It seems silly but maybe you could get some early Singapore instructors guides and work through the problems and concepts with her.

[EmilyGF]

Absolutely, for the vast majority of people. I was reading research about this over the summer. I am in a rush now, but Ill write more details later.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[letsplaymath]

There is an encouraging series of posts on the Angelicscalliwags blog. Scroll down to read the series in order, bottom to top:

• Helping a Struggling Math Student

[busymama7]

There are some resources on Ronit Bird's website. This video explains dyscalculia.

Thank you! I watched this. I'm still processing the signs and seeing how they match up with my daughter.

[Rockhopper]

Yes, you can strengthen number sense.  

 

I had to go back to ground zero with my older DD last fall when she was in 7th grade.  I set aside her curriculum and decided to work on foundational skills, stuff that many students pick up intuitively.  I discovered that she wasn't able to subitize numbers above 2, so we started there.  Spending a few months just on building basic number sense reaped HUGE rewards.  

 

Last fall she was working at late 3rd/early 4th grade level with virtually no automaticity of math facts, even +0 or +1.  By this summer (so, about 2 years later) she should be ready for pre-algebra.   :auto: 

 

Take the time.  Repair the foundation.  

 

Would you be willing to share some specifics of how you approached this remediation with your dd? (Or link me to a thread if you've done so already?) Thank you!

[shinyhappypeople]

Would you be willing to share some specifics of how you approached this remediation with your dd? (Or link me to a thread if you've done so already?) Thank you!

 

I used some things from Ronit Bird.  It's hard to give specifics, because what I tailored for my kid may not be what someone else's child needs, kwim?  She doesn't have dyscalculia (she was given the label SLD-Math, mild, but does fine with understanding the concept of number, time, quantity and so on).  Her cognitive style is to process information very slowly (this is never changing, it just is who she is) and she has a tough time holding multiple bits of information in her head at the same time (this is called working memory).  Her working memory has improved somewhat, which is pretty cool :)   One strength (of many!) is that she has excellent visual-spatial reasoning skills.  

 

So, having said that, your child is going to have a different cognitive profile with different strengths and weaknesses.  Seriously, start with the Ronit Bird book.  I also like the Education Unboxed videos created by a TWTM poster.  Domino games are also really great. 

 

How I taught the subitization was pretty simple.  I used small manipulatives (puff balls used for crafting were a favorite) and I would put a pile in my lap, gather up some in my hand (2 to 5), show DD for a second and then cover them and ask her how many puffs I had in my hand.  It's not very exciting, but eventually her subitization skills improved.

[Guest]

Some regular games and activities that help:

 

Dominos - she should get to the point that she recognizes the number of dots by number as well as pattern...ask her to name the number she is matching as she plays her turn. Start with just double sixes, then when she has that down go to 12.

 

LEGO - build holiday mini ornaments. In the process, she will count the studs, eventually knowing how many at a glance. When she compares two, ask her to use count up if she is counting one by one.

 

Finger bowling (usually at dollar store or in with birthday party supplies)....have her score as well as learn to recognize how many pins are standing in a glance and from that determine how many fell.

 

The board game Worlds Fair 1893 involves moving and keeping track of how many each player has, and isnt little kiddish.

 

The card game Mille Bornes is good for mental math beginners.

[LMD]

Sometimes it is simpler than you think. Some random numbers that you add up, those are just random numbers. Put them in terms of money or something familiar and then it means something.

 

Along with this thought, I recently taught long division again and we first used base 10 blocks - I demonstrated many many many times before he had a turn. Then, I had him draw out base 10 figures for every problem. Only then did we try a couple of straight problems. My ds is clever and makes lots of connections - not always the correct ones though! Jumping to procedural without cementing the concept is death to him. Dd was much more intuitive and more able to see the concept through the process.

And yes, my son regularly does things like times 2 by 10 and come back with 900, or 13. He knows his tables well, he's just gone off on a tangent mid-problem and is totally lost lol.