How can I best prepare daughter in High School for STEM major in college?

[Kfamily]

My younger daughter has always maintained an interest in the science field, especially space related fields. She's thinking of Mechanical or Aerospace Engineering and possibly Quantum Physics...just writing this causes me stress...lol! I'm not sure where to start...and we need to get started, because she is in 8th grade this year. She's on-track with Algebra I this year and we've talked about doubling up next year for Algebra II and Geometry. My concern is how to be sure that she receives the very best in math and science instruction. I'm okay with Algebra I....maybe Geometry and Algebra II, but after this I think she'll need someone else. Where we live she can take advantage of the local state college for dual-enrollment. UF looks like a good option for her as a university choice, but we will keep others in mind too.

 

My main question is...Would she be better off finding outside help for math and science classes and applying to a school such as UF as a freshman, or would she be okay as a transfer student? I have some things to research, I know. I know she needs chemistry and physics in high school too. Any other advice for me...I would love some right now. LOL! She can do this...I know she can...she is a very focused and determined young person, so I don't want to fail her as a guide down this path. :)

 

Thank you! :)

 

ETA: Everyone here is so helpful! Thank you so much!

Edited August 26, 2016 by Kfamily

[Clear Creek]

I just looked at the UF website and it mentions on the freshman application page that students who have earned their high school diploma and AA concurrently should apply as freshmen, so I imagine that also applies to students who earn credit via dual enrollment. I am sure someone in the admissions office could confirm that for you.

 

As for your other questions...different state, similar scenario in my house, so I will be listening to the advice offered you in this thread. My oldest wants to get her graduate level degree in toxicology at A&M, so I am also in a moderate state of panic at the thought of preparing her adequately for that goal.

[Grantmom]

I am not an expert, but I just want to say that it is great that you are starting now to plan.  My advice would be to look now at various schools, UF and others, where you think she might be interested.  I would look at a wide range of schools.  Look at their admissions requirements for their engineering or physics programs, and plan your four years based on meeting (or even exceeding) those requirements.  If you think aerospace is a very strong interest that she will want to keep the doors open for, look at which engineering programs offer that and are accredited for it.  I think if you plan the four years now for the sort of the highest level she might want to achieve, then you can always modify the plan as you go.

[Kfamily]

Aw, thank you! I was just on their site and missed that. My head is spinning...LOL! Thank you! I was thinking that maybe the dual-enrolled classes could just count as replacements for high school classes and she could just start as a freshman. So, I would just let her take classes such as Pre-Calculus, Chemistry, Physics and Calculus at the state college but count them as high school classes. That makes sense, I think. I'll probably check with someone at admissions just to be sure that I don't overlook anything.

 

I know how you feel. :)

Edited August 25, 2016 by Kfamily

[Julie of KY]

I'd encourage you to make sure her algebra is rock solid. Everything beyond is built upon this foundation.

[Melissa B]

If you dual enroll, your student will still enter UF (or any other college in FL) with freshman status. My dd just entered UF as a freshman with 112 credit hours of accepted dual enrollment and three credit hours denied. 

[regentrude]

THE single most important thing you can do is make sure she has a thorough conceptual math understanding and procedural fluency.

The students who fail out of STEM majors usually do so because their math preparation is inadequate.

If you feel not qualified to teach high school level math, DE at CC can work, although that brings the issue that those classes are usually taken by struggling math students who need remediation, so I woudl be hesitant to choose this route.

An outsourced class that is intended fro strong high school math students may be a better option.

Edited August 25, 2016 by regentrude

[Lanny]

I would continue to encourage her. However, I would *not* try to push her and I would try very hard not to have her "burn out" when she is in High School.  My DD took Algebra 1 in 9th grade and she will probably be a STEM Major.  It is *critical* that Algebra 1 is mastered. Just about everything that follows is based on Algebra 1.  I believe it is critical for students *not* to take any courses that are critical for their eventual university major (eg. Math for an Engineering discipline) in High School or in a C.C. Take those courses in the university, where they are taught the way the Engineering College wants them taught.   4 years of Math, 4 years of Science, 4 years of English, 3 years of a Foreign Language,, the normal basic requirements for admission to a good university, are what is needed   Your daughter has a "plus" for getting into an Engineering school!   Women are sought after in Engineering schools! There are Scholarship opportunities for girls going into Engineering or other STEM fields.  There is a high attrition rate in Colleges of Engineering. Tech (Texas Tech University) makes that quite clear on the Home Page of the Engineering College.  Some of the high school math whiz students get to an Engineering College and discover they cannot apply the Math they supposedly learned, to what they need to do in university.  Take it slow and get everything as solid as is possible.  My DD probably could have skipped "Pre Algebra", but we chose not to do that, so that she would be as solid as is possible when she took Algebra 1.  Do not skip any courses.

[JanetC]

Why does she need to double-up on math in 9th grade? By doing algebra in 8th, she's already on a good track.

 

9th = geometry

10th = algebra II

11th = pre-cal/trig

12th  = calculus

 

 

[Guest]

Why does she need to double-up on math in 9th grade? By doing algebra in 8th, she's already on a good track.

 

9th = geometry

10th = algebra II

11th = pre-cal/trig

12th = calculus

If she does, she can skip gen ed science in 10th and take Honors/AP, which will prepare her for freshman eng. Chem and Physics much better than high school gen ed. Sciences will. Edited August 25, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[regentrude]

Why does she need to double-up on math in 9th grade? By doing algebra in 8th, she's already on a good track.

 

9th = geometry

10th = algebra II

11th = pre-cal/trig

12th  = calculus

Absolutely. It is not a race. Rather than acing to get calculus done in 11th (unless there are very good reasons for it, which some students may have), I would make sure she uses a very strong math program to thoroughly cement conceptual understanding.

AoPS comes to mine. Go deep rather than fast.

[Kfamily]

Thanks everyone! Great advice and I feel less anxious. :)

 

I definitely agree with previous posters that emphasizing Algebra and quality over quantity is the better path. I was thinking that ideally a student takes a high school attempt at subjects such as chemistry, physics and calculus and then goes on to study them again in college. This was what I meant by having her take them as a dual-enrolled student; they would count as high school attempts.She would retake them at the college level as a freshman, so she would not replace them. But, I take regentrude's advice seriously and I'll see what I can find for her with regard to classes in these subjects outside of the state college.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Kfamily

[Kfamily]

Absolutely. It is not a race. Rather than acing to get calculus done in 11th (unless there are very good reasons for it, which some students may have), I would make sure she uses a very strong math program to thoroughly cement conceptual understanding.

AoPS comes to mine. Go deep rather than fast.

 

 

We'd considered AOPS before, but I was concerned that I would have trouble teaching it. Should I consider this again?

 

 

ETA: We were just talking about the idea of doubling up in math in 9th, but if our track in math is solid enough, then I'd rather stay with it.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Kfamily

[Melissa B]

Thanks everyone! Great advice and I feel less anxious. :)

 

I definitely agree with previous posters that emphasizing Algebra and quality over quantity is the better path. I was thinking that ideally a student takes a high school attempt at subjects such as chemistry, physics and calculus and then goes on to study them again in college. This was what I meant by having her take them as a dual-enrolled student: they would count as high school attempts.She would retake them at the college level as a freshman, so she would not replace them. But, I take regentrude's advice seriously and I'll see what I can find for her with regard to classes in these subjects outside of the state college.

 

If you do not dual enroll and your dd does want to attend UF be sure and schedule in SAT II tests for math, science, social science and foreign language. It's a crazy number of tests, however, it is the primary reason homeschooled students are not accepted to UF.

[Kfamily]

If you do not dual enroll and your dd does want to attend UF be sure and schedule in SAT II tests for math, science, social science and foreign language. It's a crazy number of tests, however, it is the primary reason homeschooled students are not accepted to UF.

 

Thank you....this is important to know. Perhaps she could just take a handful of dual-enrolled classes but strongly supplement with a thorough math and science program at-home or outsourced in another way? This would give admissions the ability to see that she has what they would consider accredited classes, but still keep state college classes from taking over our own work? Hmmm....much to consider....

Edited August 25, 2016 by Kfamily

[Arcadia]

Writing skills

Presentation skills - some of my engin courses has viva voce (oral) exams

People skills

 

Hubby's HR just rejected a well qualified applicant for a senior engineering position because the HR people claim his spoken English is not "charming" enough. They want an engineer who can speak like a sales/marketing person. So since the three HR staff reject, his boss can't hire that otherwise well qualified person.

 

Another HR reject was a mechanical engineering grad from a well known top U who was too snobbish in the way she talk like she deserved to be hired because of where she graduated from.

 

Not saying your daughter would have similar problems but just something worth noting. Even internship interviews can be peer group interviews with HR involved.

 

I believe it is critical for students *not* to take any courses that are critical for their eventual university major (eg. Math for an Engineering discipline) in High School or in a C.C. Take those courses in the university, where they are taught the way the Engineering College wants them taught.

I don't understand why? It is good to take well taught classes relevant to the major in high school as long as time permits.

 

The way my 11/12th grade lecturers taught math, physics and chem were the same way my university lecturers teach. There was no cultural/expectations gap.

 

As a girl taking the highest level of math and physics my high school offers and in classes with majority males, the entire class is held to the same crazy high standards. We had lab exams as well as paper exams. No multiple choice questions for tests or exams. My engineering cohort had 2 dropouts out of 450 back in the 90s, both dropouts happened to be male, 15% of cohort are females.

 

ETA:

We are far from UF so didn't look at the requirements. Most engineering schools we look at ask for SAT II Math 2 and a SAT II in science for all applicants.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Arcadia

[Mike in SA]

Math, math, math, math, math.  :)

 

AoPS is definitely the primo candidate for STEM majors, as it provides very strong depth.  If you aren't feeling confident about teaching it, consider getting the first book, and look at whether you could take it yourself.  If you can, you can teach it.

 

There's absolutely no urgency to take a particular science track in high school - in fact, most universities will look at balance quite favorably.

 

I do wonder - how do you know she will enjoy quantum mechanics?  It's rather specific this early on.  (nothing wrong with that - I'm just curious)  It does, by the way, require an extra strong mathematical foundation.

[VANURSEPRAC]

Kfamily, I wanted to tell you about us. I had my 13 y/o daughter try AoPS preA over a year ago but she was not interested. After she finished Foerster Alg 1, I had her look at AoPS Intro to Algebra. She found a lot of material that she did not learn in Foerster. So she is now going through the topics and working all challange problems (painfully slow) and even has dipped down in the PreA AoPs text a couple of times.

 

At this time her only complaint is she is so slow with the challange problems.

 

So you might look at it again. Also I would not know how to teach it.  The text teaches to the student.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2016 by VANURSEPRAC

[Grantmom]

The AoPS text teaches to the student, and I don't think you need to be able to do it.  However, they do have online classes.  There is also Alcumus that is completely free:

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/alcumus

 

I agree and second the writing and presentation skills.  If you can become an engineer with really strong communication skills, you will do well.  We need more of them.  I've had recent work experience with some engineers who can't put together a well-written paragraph (basic typos, poor sentence structure, and grammar mistakes, and I'm talking about native English speakers) and it's painful to read. 

Edited August 26, 2016 by Grantmom

[quark]

So exciting, Kfamily!

 

Others have already given good advice so I just wanted to add 2 things.

 

I thought she might enjoy this website: How to become a good theoretical physicist (I understand she might go into applied physics but still, this site has some valuable insight for those who want to study physics of any kind).

 

After 9th grade, if her interests do veer towards the theory side, check out ISSYP.

 

Good luck to all of you!

[MarkT]

Math, math, math, math, math.  :)

 

AoPS is definitely the primo candidate for STEM majors, as it provides very strong depth.  If you aren't feeling confident about teaching it, consider getting the first book, and look at whether you could take it yourself.  If you can, you can teach it..

IMHO Foerster Math and some others can be better for many future STEM majors - yes give AoPS a try but don't conclude "your child is not worthy" if it isn't a good fit.

 

Strong Math skills are very important!

[Arcadia]

After 9th grade, if her interests do veer towards the theory side, check out ISSYP.

Virtual ISSYP has quantum mechanics lectures, just nice for OP's daughter

http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/outreach/students/virtual-issyp/virtual-issyp-modern-physics/modern-physics-quantum-mechanics

[kiana]

Others have already emphasized the importance of math so I won't belabor that. 

 

But the other thing that causes people to struggle is a lack of willingness to grapple with the concepts. I can't count how many people I see coming in who want to major in a STEM subject, and yet as soon as they're faced with something where they need to synthesize knowledge from more than one section, and especially to work on a problem and maybe come back to it, they just shut down. I really think that many of them could have handled it if they'd been working towards it from a younger age. 

[Kfamily]

Math, math, math, math, math.  :)

 

AoPS is definitely the primo candidate for STEM majors, as it provides very strong depth.  If you aren't feeling confident about teaching it, consider getting the first book, and look at whether you could take it yourself.  If you can, you can teach it.

 

There's absolutely no urgency to take a particular science track in high school - in fact, most universities will look at balance quite favorably.

 

I do wonder - how do you know she will enjoy quantum mechanics?  It's rather specific this early on.  (nothing wrong with that - I'm just curious)  It does, by the way, require an extra strong mathematical foundation.

 

It was she that told me that she was considering a degree in Aerospace or Mechanical Engineering or that she was considering the idea of becoming a physicist in quantum mechanics. She's always been very fascinated with space/time/physics/astronomy related topics and enjoys reading books and watching documentaries on these topics.

 

 

Arcadia and Quark-thank you for the links! I'll be sure to share them with her right away.

 

Grantmom-thanks for the note on AOPS classes. I'll have to look into this.

 

All-I also appreciate all of the notes of advice, including the point about the importance of writing and presentation. I'll keep this in mind for her.

 

:)

Edited August 26, 2016 by Kfamily

[Mama Geek]

I would recommend going for the more flexible mechanical engineering degree over aerospace.  You can work anywhere with a mechanical engineering degree.  If she wants to go the physics route is she prepared to get a PhD.  Dh's undergrad was physics he could not find work.  He went back for a Master's in engineering.  If she wants to take some elective type things that would help, drafting and AutoCad classes as well as some programming classes would be pretty useful.  Does she have lots of hands on opportunities?  Helping to repair things, helping to build things, designing things used at home, working on cars, etc.?  All of that would be very beneficial to any engineering major.

[KarenC]

IMHO Foerster Math and some others can be better for many future STEM majors - yes give AoPS a try but don't conclude "your child is not worthy" if it isn't a good fit.

 

Strong Math skills are very important!

I prefer Foerster's over AOPS.  I like the presentation and format much better.

[Mike in SA]

It was she that told me that she was considering a degree in Aerospace or Mechanical Engineering or that she was considering the idea of becoming a physicist in quantum mechanics. She's always been very fascinated with space/time/physics/astronomy related topics and enjoys reading books and watching documentaries on these topics.

 

It's great - we need more young ladies in the field!

 

If she likes cosmology and spacetime physics, you might consider additional geometry, or even an introduction to topology. It's good to become comfortable with multidimensional thinking early on.

 

It isn't essential, by any means - just an interesting enabler.

[Arcadia]

It was she that told me that she was considering a degree in Aerospace or Mechanical Engineering or that she was considering the idea of becoming a physicist in quantum mechanics. She's always been very fascinated with space/time/physics/astronomy related topics and enjoys reading books and watching documentaries on these topics.

These math problems workbooks PDFs produced by NASA for free use might be nice for when she is bored with the usual math problems.

http://spacemath.gsfc.nasa.gov/books.html

 

I agree with Mama Geek. Look at a bachelors in mechanical engineering or physics and then masters in aeronautical engineering unless she has her heart set on aerospace.

 

Also look at Civil Air Patrol cadet program

http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/how_to_join/youth_faqs/

 

Also the engineering girls website has scholarship info and other info

http://www.engineergirl.org/9539.aspx

[Kfamily]

You all have been so helpful...thank you! Great advice!

 

I also value the advice to help her weigh out the best choices for degree paths. Having a degree with more flexibility is a good idea.

 

Thank you Mike for the advice on topology. I'll look into this too.

 

Arcadia, thank you, your links are great!

 

I know many are suggesting Foerster's...I have Dolciani (Algebra I and II), Jacobs for Algebra I and Geometry (2nd ed.). Would any of these work for this year? I also have Hewitt's Conceptual Physics...should I consider this for this year too? The latter book may be a good introduction to help cement concepts before going into a heavier text....what do you think? I would probably just pull out some chapters and add other resources to them.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Kfamily

[daijobu]

(1) Cultivate a growth mindset

Many students get their first C of their lives in that introductory chemistry, physics, or calculus test freshman year.  Many of those students then conclude that they aren't cut out for engineering or medicine or other STEM field.  This may not necessarily be true.  What may be true is that they need to reassess the amount of time they need to prepare for exams, or how to study more effectively.  Warn your student that their future colleagues may be ducks: calm and happy on the outside, but underwater they are pedaling like crazy to keep up.  

 

(2) Warn your student that she will likely be working harder for lower grades (see above) than their friends in the liberal arts.  Many professors in STEM fields tend to grade more harshly than in other departments.  You may be tempted to switch to another department to take it easier in college.  There's nothing wrong with that, but I think it's better to know what she's in for ahead of time.  (As for me, I would find a liberal arts degree much more painful than a STEM degree.)  

 

Good luck to her!  (I'll take a problem set over a paper any day.)

[Mike in SA]

I know many are suggesting Foerster's...I have Dolciani (Algebra I and II), Jacobs for Algebra I and Geometry (2nd ed.). Would any of these work for this year? I also have Hewitt's Conceptual Physics...should I consider this for this year too? The latter book may be a good introduction to help cement concepts before going into a heavier text....what do you think? I would probably just pull out some chapters and add other resources to them.

 

Dolciani and Jacobs are good texts.  Stick with those (probably Dolciani for both algebras, Jacobs for geometry).  If she accelerates, it will allow for additional depth when the time comes.

 

For Physics, Hewitt's book is fantastic for middle school / early high school.  It teaches the concepts well, and will leave room to do honors physics (e.g., Derek Owens or the like) later without losing value.  Ultimately, an AP physics would be great, but absolutely not essential during high school.

 

(1) Cultivate a growth mindset

Many students get their first C of their lives in that introductory chemistry, physics, or calculus test freshman year.  Many of those students then conclude that they aren't cut out for engineering or medicine or other STEM field.  This may not necessarily be true.  What may be true is that they need to reassess the amount of time they need to prepare for exams, or how to study more effectively.  Warn your student that their future colleagues may be ducks: calm and happy on the outside, but underwater they are pedaling like crazy to keep up.  

 

 

Maybe just me, but I never experienced this.  I did have the freshman flop, but not in the science courses.  In the end, I did have one of my two final B's in physics (statistical thermodynamics) - the other in English, but I did have to retake a course in another field after my frosh year.  :ph34r:

[kiana]

(1) Cultivate a growth mindset

Many students get their first C of their lives in that introductory chemistry, physics, or calculus test freshman year.  Many of those students then conclude that they aren't cut out for engineering or medicine or other STEM field.  This may not necessarily be true.  What may be true is that they need to reassess the amount of time they need to prepare for exams, or how to study more effectively.  Warn your student that their future colleagues may be ducks: calm and happy on the outside, but underwater they are pedaling like crazy to keep up.  

 

This happens to a lot of freshmen I teach. They confuse having to work at a subject with not being good at it; this is particularly true for students who are used to being able to coast with little effort and still understand well. They don't understand that no matter how smart you are, and how good at math, eventually you're going to run into a class where you have to actually do some work, and frankly, the later it is, the more painful the meeting is. 

[MarkT]

You all have been so helpful...thank you! Great advice!

 

I also value the advice to help her weigh out the best choices for degree paths. Having a degree with more flexibility is a good idea.

 

Thank you Mike for the advice on topology. I'll look into this too.

 

Arcadia, thank you, your links are great!

 

I know many are suggesting Foerster's...I have Dolciani (Algebra I and II), Jacobs for Algebra I and Geometry (2nd ed.). Would any of these work for this year? I also have Hewitt's Conceptual Physics...should I consider this for this year too? The latter book may be a good introduction to help cement concepts before going into a heavier text....what do you think? I would probably just pull out some chapters and add other resources to them.

Dolciani and Jacobs is fine for math. You can find some of the late 1990s editions of Foerster for cheap and they have great word problems which you could use for a supplement,

 

A Conceptual Physics class in 8th or 9th grade is a great way to go.

[Lanny]

I took a very quick look at some of the replies in this thread.  I would "second" the idea of Majoring in something where there are apt to be more employment opportunities over the long haul.  Engineering is very cyclical. Aerospace is much more cyclical.  There are times when it is booming and there are times when it is bust.  So, yes, I would agree, that going into something like Mechanical Engineering would probably be much more stable, for employment possibilities, than something like Aeronautical Engineering.

 

Regarding Physics.  I think an M.S. should be the minimum requirement there.  My late Uncle who had a Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering, initially taught at Stanford.  Later, he went to work as a V.P. for an Aerospace Corporation.   I believe someone at the Ph.D. level either needs to do what he did (Full Professor in a College of Engineering) or be at the V.P. level in industry.

 

NOTE: When I was a boy, he told ,me that he wished he had gone into Physics, instead of into Engineering.  

 

I worked with *many* people who had an M.S. in Math.  I do not believe I ever had anyone on my team who had a Ph.D. I think that would be "the kiss of death" for someone working at the Grunt level on an Engineering project.  One of my friends did, I believe, get a Ph.D., before she retired. 

 

At the moment, my DD is interested in Solar Engineering.  If that continues, I will encourage her to consider Electrical or  Mechanical Engineering and to getting on the Solar team at Tech.

 

There is something on one of the primary web pages of the College of Engineering at Tech that explains, in a few words, that Engineering school is very tough.  That does not mean that it is impossible, but most students really need to work their tails off.  When I see someone like the NFL player for the Colts (?) who is a Math genius, I think how wonderful it is, that he can do 2 things he loves, Football and Math. When he's too old to play in the NFL, as he said, he will always have Math.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Lanny

[Arcadia]

Lanny,

 

A PhD makes it easier for a company to get the H1B visa approved for a overseas hire. It is not a "kiss of death" anymore. I don't know what level you define as grunt but labor intensive jobs are often carried out by people with an associate degree or done offshore.

 

Engineering might be tough but architecture and medicine were lots worse at my alma mater. Time management is the key regardless which major anyone pick.

[Lanny]

Lanny,

 

A PhD makes it easier for a company to get the H1B visa approved for a overseas hire. It is not a "kiss of death" anymore. I don't know what level you define as grunt but labor intensive jobs are often carried out by people with an associate degree or done offshore.

 

Engineering might be tough but architecture and medicine were lots worse at my alma mater. Time management is the key regardless which major anyone pick.

 

I agree, 100%, about Medicine.  That is an extremely tough career and much more stressful in and after Med School.

 

I hadn't thought about H1B Visas.  My comments are reflective of positions where U.S. Citizenship is a starting requirement, The "Grunt" jobs I refer to are best done by people with a B.S. or M.S. degree in Engineering, Physics or Math.

 

I am retired now, but if I was in an Engineering group and there was someone with a Ph.D.,  doing the same work that I was doing, I would think that their education was being wasted and that they were working way below their education level. The flip side of that is that some people, with Graduate degrees, cannot produce.  I was told, at least once, by a Recruiter, "I can get someone with a Ph.D. for that" and my reply was, "Of course you can and I hope they can do the work properly".

 

The (late) friend who I believe ended up with a Ph.D.  worked on temporary contract assignments much longer than many people who were "Direct" (Permanent) employees of the clients she worked for.  She produced a lot of work and was retained, when they were laying off "Direct" employees, who could not do the work that she could.  In her case, it was her experience, not her degree(s) that enabled her to be so productive working on temporary contract assignments.    

[Lanny]

@Arcadia   I received an email about a "Direct"  (Permanent) position in Tampa, on August 16th.  That email did include Ph.D. level people among those who would qualify for the position

 

"Qualifications and Experience:

·         Bachelor of Science, Master’s, or Ph. D in Aerospace/Aeronautical Engineering."

 

Job Title: Flight Dynamics Software Engineer

 

The "Compensation" seems to be the same, although I suspect they might pay slightly more, for an experienced person with an M.S. or a Ph.D.

 

My own belief it that if someone has a Ph.D. in Engineering, they should have an Upper Management position in the corporation or be employed as a Full Professor in a university.  I would think it very strange, if someone on my team, at my level, had a Ph.D. 

[Arcadia]

My own belief it that if someone has a Ph.D. in Engineering, they should have an Upper Management position in the corporation or be employed as a Full Professor in a university. I would think it very strange, if someone on my team, at my level, had a Ph.D.

When almost every engineer in the dept has a PhD, there are not enough management positions to go round. Two corporations (MNC) that I worked for has a flat hierarchy in the engineering dept. so someone is either an engineer, the dept head or the CTO. Another two MNCs has like seven layers for engineering.

 

A masters can be paid higher than a phd. Each company's HR has a salary scale rating system and my hubby had to write an essay justifying his pay raise because that is how it works for employees in his location.

[Lanny]

When almost every engineer in the dept has a PhD, there are not enough management positions to go round. Two corporations (MNC) that I worked for has a flat hierarchy in the engineering dept. so someone is either an engineer, the dept head or the CTO. Another two MNCs has like seven layers for engineering.

 

A masters can be paid higher than a phd. Each company's HR has a salary scale rating system and my hubby had to write an essay justifying his pay raise because that is how it works for employees in his location.

 

Wow...  I am having trouble wrapping my head around that.  The 7 layers for Engineering seem better than just about everyone having a Ph.D., which truly seems to be a waste of educations. 

 

I suspect you are describing companies that are involved in Commercial projects, and not what I was involved in. Very different worlds. I also worked on some Commercial projects, but never ran into anything like you described, where the Engineering Workplace was full of people with a Ph.D.  

 

One of my former colleagues, told me, about 2008, that the Commercial projects now have a Supervisor for every 2 people, possibly that's a slight exaggeration, it might have been 5 people, but he suggested that if I go back to work, that I go into Management, to avoid that micro management at the grunt level, where people are trying to produce something that will make the project successful and not just collect a paycheck.  The guy who told me that is one of many people I worked with over the years who has an M.S. in Math.

[angela in ohio]

I have two daughters in college for engineering, one in computer engineering and one in aerospace. I can clear up some misconceptions from this thread and hopefully give you some relevant advice. :)

 

First, though it hardly matters whether your daughter is interested in one specific field of science or engineering yet (she can decide that in late high school or early college,) I don't want you to discourage her from aerospace engineering based on old info. If you compare any listing for unemployment rates and salaries by engineering field, you will find mechanical engineers and aerospace engineers have very similar outcomes. You can google for lists; the first one that came up for me just now was this one. We have researched this in depth because my daughter needed to choose between a college which offered aerospace engineering and one which only offered mechanical. The most important factor for her was that she loves all things aerospace, and she would have been miserable spending four years studying and designing cars and robots when she wanted to study and design planes. The next most important factor was that outcomes are equal or slightly better for aerospace majors than for mechanical engineers. 

 

Second, there is no problem with taking dual enrollment or college classes before you get to college and then duplicating those courses. Both of my daughters have done this. For one, the courses transferred and she is a freshman with 50+ credits who can graduate a year early or double major; for the other they didn't transfer, but allowed her to not only excel but help out her classmates.

 

There are a few things to "attack" as you prepare her: One is that she obviously needs strong math skills, and others have addressed that well. Another is that she needs resilience: it IS still an uphill battle for a woman in engineering, and you can prepare her for that by setting her up with mentors and role models and resources for the hard days. I could tell some awesome stories about the garbage my daughters have faced, and being able to overcome it is crucial.

 

Another thing to consider is cultivating hobbies that she enjoys and allow her to explore her interests. My daughter built an RC plane and got her license to fly it. A lot of future aerospace students enter model rocket competitions. There are summer camps and teams for engineering. The Society of Women Engineers (SWE) has a group for high school girls, SWE-NEXT, and they have resources available.  There are also math competitions and physics olympiads.

[Kfamily]

Angela in Ohio, thank you! This was very helpful.

[Arcadia]

The difference between average pay for mechanical engineering and aerospace engineering is apparently about $1k in my metro area. There are about 1k more mechanical engineers in my metro area.

 

Look at the states and metros profile as a fun to know

BLS mechanical

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes172141.htm#st

BLS aerospace

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes172011.htm#st

 

Sorry for the derail. Each company and its subdivision has their own culture, she can worry about that when looking for internships down the road.

 

Wow... I am having trouble wrapping my head around that. The 7 layers for Engineering seem better than just about everyone having a Ph.D., which truly seems to be a waste of educations.

 

I suspect you are describing companies that are involved in Commercial projects, and not what I was involved in.

One of the private company nearby my home needs US citizen with security clearance for some projects. The same company has commercial projects. Easy for you to guess which one.

 

My area tend to be phd heavy for all majors, not just engineering. It is all location, just like property prices and rents.

 

My metro area is in the BLS links above. The people I know are paid much higher but they are also in their 40s with more than a decade of working experience. Cost of living is also high.

 

I think we probably have different views on education. So let us just let it be. We can discuss off thread if you want.

[Guest]

The ed does seem to matter in certain industries. I was told to plan on earning a PhD back in the early 90s if I wanted to advance technically in the multinational corp I was working for. Its 2016 now and the people that just have a BS never moved up, while those with MS and PhD found greener pastures, especially if they took some business coursework.The people hired now for that position are either ex-military officers or PhDs. Of course, that may be to allow the numerous H1B hires.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Heigh Ho