So, what did you think about the debate? (Let's leave everything else out of it)

[nmoira]

No, not at all. I'm saying that it seems to me that there is a Constitutional case to be made for the office of the VP to be flexible, and to be part of both the Executive and Legislative branch - that is what I take from my reading. However, I support the idea that if you are going to operate in both branches, you must accept the oversight of both branches. The flexibility should not mean a free pass on oversight, record-keeping, etc. I do not condone Cheney's interpretation in that respect.

:)

 

But I don't think that Palin implied that.

This is a point for which I'd like some clarification from Palin. Edited October 3, 2008 by nmoira

[Brigitte]

I found it painful when Ifill asked about their Achilles heel, and she spoke of her strengths of experience. It made me wonder if she wasn';t aware of the term, or chose not to answer what was specifically asked.

 

 

Actually, that is how people are trained to respond to that type of question in a job interview. It is pretty common for people to answer a question like that with an answer that ultimately shows how their "weakness" is really a strength.

 

 

I think they performed equally, which is much better than people expected out of Palin. In that respect, I think it was a "win" for her.

 

Joe Biden's constant smiling at her (which appeared to be genuine and not condescending) was driving me a bit crazy. I thought perhaps he was developing a crush on her.......not really, but....

[Jennifer3141]

:)

 

But I don't think that Palin implied that.

This is a point for which I'd like some clarification from Palin.

 

A lot of us would. But I doubt it's coming...

 

Jen

[melmac]

Disclaimer: I have a hearing problem, so I am only looking for clarification.

 

Did anyone else hear Palin say something to the effect of, "My kids IS public schooled."?

 

It was towards the end of the debate that I *thought* I heard this.

 

Thanks!

[Jane in NC]

Disclaimer: I have a hearing problem, so I am only looking for clarification.

 

Did anyone else hear Palin say something to the effect of, "My kids IS public schooled."?

 

It was towards the end of the debate that I *thought* I heard this.

 

Thanks!

 

A quick search revealed this from the transcript:

 

Education credit in American has been in some sense in some of our states just accepted to be a little bit lax and we have got to increase the standards. No Child Left Behind was implemented. It's not doing the job though. We need flexibility in No Child Left Behind. We need to put more of an emphasis on the profession of teaching. We need to make sure that education in either one of our agendas, I think, absolute top of the line. My kids as public school participants right now, it's near and dear to my heart. I'm very, very concerned about where we're going with education and we have got to ramp it up and put more attention in that arena.

 

I had to look up a couple of things on the transcript because I misheard them as well--or it could be Ms. Palin's dialect.

Jane

 

ETA: The debate transcript can be found here.

Edited October 3, 2008 by Jane in NC
website address

[melmac]

Thank you, Jane! :)

 

 

A quick search revealed this from the transcript:

 

Education credit in American has been in some sense in some of our states just accepted to be a little bit lax and we have got to increase the standards. No Child Left Behind was implemented. It's not doing the job though. We need flexibility in No Child Left Behind. We need to put more of an emphasis on the profession of teaching. We need to make sure that education in either one of our agendas, I think, absolute top of the line. My kids as public school participants right now, it's near and dear to my heart. I'm very, very concerned about where we're going with education and we have got to ramp it up and put more attention in that arena.

 

 

I had to look up a couple of things on the transcript because I misheard them as well--or it could be Ms. Palin's dialect.

Jane

 

ETA: The debate transcript can be found here.

[Aggie]

Well, it would say that he is a moronic, power-hungry idiot who probably plans to secretly whack the president so he can get in the driver's seat. :lol:

 

Tara

 

 

This is exactly why dh and I think Obama didn't choose Clinton as VP. :)

 

Before the debate, tibby said that nothing new ever comes from the debate. Debates aren't designed to advertise platforms anymore. I agree. The reason for the debate is to make one's nominee look wonderful while making the opposition look bad.

 

If we want to know where someone stands, we can easily look it up on their site, or check their voting history. Although the voting history tends to be misleading since they group so many issues in one bill. If it's not clear where they stand on an issue on their site, there is no way it's going to be said during a debate.

 

Personally, I think this debate is outdated. I really liked the one McCain and Obama did in the church earlier. There seemed to be more accountability there, for some reason.

 

Aggie

[Retired]

This was not a debate it was more like a scripted monologue.

 

I am voting McClain/Plain. If I was undecided the debate would not impress me from either candidate. I would guess the undecided voters weren't impressed.

[melmac]

My hubby suggested this, too. I'll let him know he's not alone in his thinking. :D

 

This is exactly why dh and I think Obama didn't choose Clinton as VP. :)

 

 

 

 

Aggie

[lovemyboys]

I don't think I've ever heard that explanation.:confused:

 

Does CA stand for Calif? Maybe it's an east-west coast thing.

It's definitely the more common pronunciation to be nu-clee-ar. I was pointing out that in certain parts of the country (several of which I've lived in/near) it is perfectly acceptable, even common, to hear the nuke-u-lar pronunciation used.

[Debbie in OR]

It's definitely the more common pronunciation to be nu-clee-ar. I was pointing out that in certain parts of the country (several of which I've lived in/near) it is perfectly acceptable, even common, to hear the nuke-u-lar pronunciation used.

 

:iagree:I've lived all over the US and abroad and have heard it both ways often.

[lovemyboys]

Biden obviously brings the gravitas and foreign policy knowledge and national experience that Obama needs. Conversely, Palin brings executive experience, reform and energy experience plus outsider's perspective which adds very strong value to her ticket.

 

Or maybe not. :tongue_smilie:

 

Dh was just watching CNN or Foxnews where one of the panel pointed out that Biden made a number of factual errors last night. They pointed out a response of his regarding Israel in which he made at least 6 errors in 60 seconds. (mistaking terms for hezbollah, saying that a particular action brought hamas into mainstream palestinian govt., etc.)

 

He delivers his answers with such assurance, you expect that he's got his facts right too.

 

Part of their point was that they'd be all over Palin if she made mistakes like that. They also pointed out that Biden's answer regarding the VP was factually incorrect as well, though I'm sure his response about Cheney got high marks.

[mom2abcd]

Or maybe not. :tongue_smilie:

 

Dh was just watching CNN or Foxnews where one of the panel pointed out that Biden made a number of factual errors last night. They pointed out a response of his regarding Israel in which he made at least 6 errors in 60 seconds. (mistaking terms for hezbollah, saying that a particular action brought hamas into mainstream palestinian govt., etc.)

 

He delivers his answers with such assurance, you expect that he's got his facts right too.

 

Part of their point was that they'd be all over Palin if she made mistakes like that. They also pointed out that Biden's answer regarding the VP was factually incorrect as well, though I'm sure his response about Cheney got high marks.

 

 

Here's an interesting link on the "gaffes..."

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/10/02/joe-bidens-gaffes-imagine-if-sarah-made-them/

 

Someone was "keeping count of the times Biden gets to rebut versus Palin and has it at a 6:1 ratio. "

 

It would be so refreshing to have someone from the "real world" (non-Washington) in the VP spot. Having someone with a more typical "middle class American" life experience would be a huge benefit... and she's the type that wouldn't sit quietly by, but would be active in making true improvements.

 

It seemed like Joe Biden thought George W. Bush was running again. How many times did he put that administration down? John McCain is not George W. Bush.

[cathmom]

That's not the issue. The hospitals can only dictate their visiting policies, they can't dictate spousal rights or interfere when a mother or other family decides to exclude a gay partner from any decisions about an ailing partners medical treatments because that gay partner has no spousal rights.

 

 

 

I think this is something you should research. Your response seems to show a lack of understanding of existing spousal rights and the concerns gay partners have.

 

When my father, who was still married to my mother at the time, needed surgery for a triple A, he made a living will outlining who he wanted to make medical decisions for him. He made it clear that my mom was not to make any decisions. He named one of my sisters as the primary decision maker, but said that her decisions were to be guided by his "friend" (who is now his wife). Was this document not legally binding? Could my mother, as his legal spouse, have gone in and done whatever she wanted had he been incapacitated? Couldn't homosexual couples do the same thing - make a living will specifying who they want to make decisions?

[kokotg]

Here's an interesting link on the "gaffes..."

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/10/02/joe-bidens-gaffes-imagine-if-sarah-made-them/

 

 

 

 

and here's an interesting non partisan look at factual errors from both candidates in the debate. I prefer my fact checking without spin.

 

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html

[JudyJudyJudy]

Originally Posted by cindyinTexas

Palin reminds me of someone that I can relate to in the real world on the issues in Washington.

This is *exactly* what many were saying about Bush 8 years ago, and look where that got us. Liking someone is not enough.

Exactly. I personally don't want someone "just like me" as second in command in this country. I'm not ready to be in such a position, and she isn't, either.

[Melissa in FL]

When my father, who was still married to my mother at the time, needed surgery for a triple A, he made a living will outlining who he wanted to make medical decisions for him. He made it clear that my mom was not to make any decisions. He named one of my sisters as the primary decision maker, but said that her decisions were to be guided by his "friend" (who is now his wife). Was this document not legally binding? Could my mother, as his legal spouse, have gone in and done whatever she wanted had he been incapacitated? Couldn't homosexual couples do the same thing - make a living will specifying who they want to make decisions?

 

The hospital will honor it only as long as your mother didn't walk in the door and demand she was the closest relative. It's at that point that the doctors send the partner down to the legal office and let the "next closest relative" make the decisions until it goes through the court system. That's the problem, most people think these legal documents give the couple protection, but in reality they don't. This is what my SIL has asked dh and I to make sure her mother doesn't do. SIL is very close to my MIL but MIL has already made it clear to her daughter that her partner is not family (MIL is very passive aggressive).

 

I always thought a living will would prevent anyone from interfering and am sad that it does not. SIL even is aware of which hospitals are more hostile to partnerships like this. Until she and I really had a conversation about it all. I guess I've really taken for granted how much my marriage license protects me from this issue. SIL doesn't care about calling what she has a marriage, she just wants her and her partner to have the same protections as dh and I. If the legal documents would be honored she would be fine with nothing else being done.

HTH

Melissa

[Nancy in MI]

He delivers his answers with such assurance, you expect that he's got his facts right too.

 

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

:001_smile:

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

My husband framed the whole thing nicely with 5 words: "The dumbing down of America."

[SnowWhite]

I enjoyed the facial expressions on Sen. Biden's face when Gov. Palin rebutted his statements. He looked like he was getting a kick out of her, yet at the same time respecting her.

 

I agree. Several times I felt he really, really likes Palin. I give her points for making that kind of impression on her competitor.

 

I was happily surprised by Palin's performance. I didn't mind her "folksy-ness". I hear people criticize her "gonna" but Biden used that word more than once, too.

[dawn of ns]

My husband framed the whole thing nicely with 5 words: "The dumbing down of America."

 

Yes!

 

Two things: I heard a conversation on the radio lamenting how politicians pandering to the myth of Joe Six-Pack (and not just Palin. Biden talked about going to Home Depot after all). The example brought up to show what should be happening was Roosevelt who never pretended folksiness but instead thought enough of citizens to have his fireside chats and educate them about America and it's place in the world. He expected people to live up to his expectations.

 

I also read an article in the Atlantic Monthly on the departing head of the Metropolitan Museum of Art who had bucked the trends of splashy exhibits by sticking with more demanding exhibits because he thought the public was capable of appreciating and enjoying oh, Byzantine idols or tapestries from the Middle ages. He had faith in the intelligence and curiousity of average people.

 

To have a politician today like either of those men...

[Aggie]

The dumbing down of America starts with some government programs.

 

Headstart? Pre-K? Those programs tell parents that they are not smart enough to teach their own children colors, letters, sounds and numbers. A parent does not need a hs diploma, a GED or a curriculum to teach a child what our schools are teaching in kindergarten. Most headstart teachers don't have a BS. No one can convince me that HS or Pre-K have any influence on those students academically.

 

I understand that Headstart does include medical and dental visits, but, imo, that should be another program, not education.

 

The dumbing down of America, indeed.

 

Aggie

[nmoira]

The dumbing down of America starts with some government programs.

 

Headstart? Pre-K? Those programs tell parents that they are not smart enough to teach their own children colors, letters, sounds and numbers. A parent does not need a hs diploma, a GED or a curriculum to teach a child what our schools are teaching in kindergarten. Most headstart teachers don't have a BS. No one can convince me that HS or Pre-K have any influence on those students academically.

 

I understand that Headstart does include medical and dental visits, but, imo, that should be another program, not education.

 

The dumbing down of America, indeed.

You are saying that lack of confidence is the sole reason that people with kids in Head Start don't teach theirs at home?

[lovemyboys]

Yes!

 

Two things: I heard a conversation on the radio lamenting how politicians pandering to the myth of Joe Six-Pack (and not just Palin. Biden talked about going to Home Depot after all). The example brought up to show what should be happening was Roosevelt who never pretended folksiness but instead thought enough of citizens to have his fireside chats and educate them about America and it's place in the world. He expected people to live up to his expectations.

 

I also read an article in the Atlantic Monthly on the departing head of the Metropolitan Museum of Art who had bucked the trends of splashy exhibits by sticking with more demanding exhibits because he thought the public was capable of appreciating and enjoying oh, Byzantine idols or tapestries from the Middle ages. He had faith in the intelligence and curiousity of average people.

 

To have a politician today like either of those men...

 

Interesting post. I like the MMA viewpoint -- fabulous. It really excites me to see these wonderful exhibits (and the money behind them) going to art that seems like it will have longlasting value, kwim? Yes the pickled shark is intriguing and the urine may be bizarrely fascinating, but will anyone think it's art in 100 years? Or a fulfillment of (wasn't it) PT Barnum's quote?

 

My concern is also the dumbing down of the vote. Many voters aren't going to bother finding out if things that are said are true, they heard 'em in the debate or in an ad and that's as far as the curiosity goes.

 

Unfortunately, I think this ridiculous hounding of candidates will discourage fair and reasonable people from entering the fray. Teams of opposition with videocams and cellphones following you everywhere, pouncing on a misstep, interviewing everyone you've ever talked to in your entire life hoping for some disgruntled coworker, flaky neighbor, glory-seeking relative or whatever? Why wasn't there more outrage that personal email was hacked into?

 

It's hard to imagine that FDR kept his polio-paralysis a secret for years. His health and longevity would be infinitely scrutinized and rejected in this day and age.

[melmac]

Unfortunately, not all parents want to teach their children *anything* and in those cases I think these types of programs serve a great purpose and I cannot see where they contribute to the dumbing down of our society.

 

Not all children are so lucky to be homeschooled.

 

 

The dumbing down of America starts with some government programs.

 

Headstart? Pre-K? Those programs tell parents that they are not smart enough to teach their own children colors, letters, sounds and numbers. A parent does not need a hs diploma, a GED or a curriculum to teach a child what our schools are teaching in kindergarten. Most headstart teachers don't have a BS. No one can convince me that HS or Pre-K have any influence on those students academically.

 

I understand that Headstart does include medical and dental visits, but, imo, that should be another program, not education.

 

The dumbing down of America, indeed.

 

Aggie

[TXMomof4]

My concern is also the dumbing down of the vote. Many voters aren't going to bother finding out if things that are said are true, they heard 'em in the debate or in an ad and that's as far as the curiosity goes.

 

Unfortunately, I think this ridiculous hounding of candidates will discourage fair and reasonable people from entering the fray. Teams of opposition with videocams and cellphones following you everywhere, pouncing on a misstep, interviewing everyone you've ever talked to in your entire life hoping for some disgruntled coworker, flaky neighbor, glory-seeking relative or whatever? Why wasn't there more outrage that personal email was hacked into?

 

It's hard to imagine that FDR kept his polio-paralysis a secret for years. His health and longevity would be infinitely scrutinized and rejected in this day and age.

 

I went to register to vote today, (yes very last minute of me) and there was a woman in there arguing with the staff because she wanted her daughter to vote. The problem? Her daughter is 17 and won't be 18 til January. She was adamant that it was her daughter's *RIGHT* to vote as an American....which is correct - except for this one small LAW which says she has to be 18. It blew my mind. Doesn't everyone know you have to be 18 to vote? Apparently not.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Yes!

 

Two things: I heard a conversation on the radio lamenting how politicians pandering to the myth of Joe Six-Pack (and not just Palin. Biden talked about going to Home Depot after all). The example brought up to show what should be happening was Roosevelt who never pretended folksiness but instead thought enough of citizens to have his fireside chats and educate them about America and it's place in the world. He expected people to live up to his expectations.

 

I also read an article in the Atlantic Monthly on the departing head of the Metropolitan Museum of Art who had bucked the trends of splashy exhibits by sticking with more demanding exhibits because he thought the public was capable of appreciating and enjoying oh, Byzantine idols or tapestries from the Middle ages. He had faith in the intelligence and curiousity of average people.

 

To have a politician today like either of those men...

 

There is a serious problem with anti-intellectualism in this country. There is no more faith in intelligence. It's okay to be at the top of the class, but not years beyond the class.

 

People in general don't have a problem with a person who can play football better than anyone else, but nobody wants to talk about people having more intellectual ability. People are so afraid of looking stupid, a high percentage of the population has been dumbed down so that everybody is "smart". AP classes have been watered down, critcal thinking is absent from the curriculum, as are the arts in many places. No one kid wins a trophy- EVERY kid gets a trophy.

 

And it's not just in public schools. Homeschool groups in my area are even more guilty than the PS. Their programs are age-segregated and parents are often encouraged to teach as little as possible or pick the "easiest" and most convenient materials. They are all for "academic excellence" until you bring up your 5 year old reading Little Women. It's all the negativity of the public schools without any of the positives like diversity. I do understand homeschool groups in all places are not like this. But, if they are like this here, they must be in some other places as well.

 

During Roosevelts time there were winners and losers. There was a can-do spirit. People valued others for their contributions to the community. Now, many Americans have a what-can-you-do-for-me spirit and communities have been replaced with strip malls.

 

When problems arise in this country, no one looks at the real causes. People don't want a fireside chat, they want to place blame. They don't want to plant victory gardens, they want 24 hour news coverage and banners that say "Mission Accomplished".

[kokotg]

 

Unfortunately, I think this ridiculous hounding of candidates will discourage fair and reasonable people from entering the fray. Teams of opposition with videocams and cellphones following you everywhere, pouncing on a misstep, interviewing everyone you've ever talked to in your entire life hoping for some disgruntled coworker, flaky neighbor, glory-seeking relative or whatever? Why wasn't there more outrage that personal email was hacked into?

 

 

 

Definitely. I thought this quote from Jon Stewart in an interview with Entertainment Weekly (this isn't where I get ALL my news, I promise) was really perceptive:

 

The whole mechanism of dissecting their every waking moment has created somewhat of a paralysis. We have drained them of their ability to remain human. Because any human moment will be so fiercely dissected and digested and metastasized by the media.

 

I see a big difference in both candidates from even a few months ago, but certainly from a few years ago. McCain's transformation has become the stuff of legends, but I see it in Obama, too. I read his first book and found it really fascinating because it's a rare glimpse inside the mind of a politician who doesn't yet know that he's a politician. He could never write that book today.

 

It's really disheartening, but what can you do? I don't see any going back. We live in the age of Wikipedia--the democratization of knowledge and all that, and it's a blessing and a curse.

[lovemyboys]

There is a serious problem with anti-intellectualism in this country. There is no more faith in intelligence. It's okay to be at the top of the class, but not years beyond the class.

 

People in general don't have a problem with a person who can play football better than anyone else, but nobody wants to talk about people having more intellectual ability. People are so afraid of looking stupid, a high percentage of the population has been dumbed down so that everybody is "smart". AP classes have been watered down, critcal thinking is absent from the curriculum, as are the arts in many places. No one kid wins a trophy- EVERY kid gets a trophy.

 

And it's not just in public schools. Homeschool groups in my area are even more guilty than the PS. Their programs are age-segregated and parents are often encouraged to teach as little as possible or pick the "easiest" and most convenient materials. They are all for "academic excellence" until you bring up your 5 year old reading Little Women. It's all the negativity of the public schools without any of the positives like diversity. I do understand homeschool groups in all places are not like this. But, if they are like this here, they must be in some other places as well.

 

During Roosevelts time there were winners and losers. There was a can-do spirit. People valued others for their contributions to the community. Now, many Americans have a what-can-you-do-for-me spirit and communities have been replaced with strip malls.

 

When problems arise in this country, no one looks at the real causes. People don't want a fireside chat, they want to place blame. They don't want to plant victory gardens, they want 24 hour news coverage and banners that say "Mission Accomplished".

 

The homeschool situation would drive me bonkers. Sad you have to deal with that.

 

The 24 news thing is crazy too. I can watch the debates and the ads and the news and ...figure things out for myself! I don't need talking heads and journalists (??!) to "restate" everything for me with their own biases and agendas. Tell me what's factual and what's not, don't say that the candidate you favor is merely "muddying the water" while the candidate you don't favor is "lying" or "a moron."

 

Your "mission accomplished" line got me thinking -- about jumping the gun, and life under this kind of constant intense scrutiny. Don't you wonder what might happen if things could develop at a normal pace, outside the frenzied spotlight of total coverage and analysis?

 

Before the infamous hours long, 40 mph car "chase" we didn't have this kind of scrutiny. Things could be allowed to develop in a way that let people, our leaders included, actually think things over and discuss solutions and strategies and weigh the options. Some things need time to percolate. We don't need to have everything solved in one newscycle.

 

I think alot of people are going to be voting with "what can you do for me" on their minds. Two huge proposals today on the campaign trail play right into that.

 

Ok, now I'll go back out to my rockin' chair on the porch and watch some grass grow.

[TXMomof4]

During Roosevelts time there were winners and losers. There was a can-do spirit. People valued others for their contributions to the community. Now, many Americans have a what-can-you-do-for-me spirit and communities have been replaced with strip malls.

 

When problems arise in this country, no one looks at the real causes. People don't want a fireside chat, they want to place blame. They don't want to plant victory gardens, they want 24 hour news coverage and banners that say "Mission Accomplished".

 

That entitlement mentality is what is killing this country, IMHO. How can individuals get ahead when the moment they do, someone is screaming it isn't fair and pulling them back down? Or hanging on their backs to get right up there with them whether they have the talent or skills to compete.