How do protect homeschooling children from educational neglect? Can we discuss with some parameters?

[Ausmumof3]

Here you get an at home visit once a year. I think it works well. The lady who visits us homeschooled her own kids for a while so she is not anti homeschooling and has some understanding of it all.

 

The benefits of the visit are

 

1. They check the children actually exist. Yes some people register children just for benefits.

2. They can get an idea if there's major neglect. Teachers see kids every day so have opportunities to pick up clues. It's pretty easy to make things look good for one meeting a year. Harder if it's at your house and the whole place is a disaster.

3. Kids love showing her what they've been doing for the year.

4. She brings screeds of info on resources and programmes available

5. I feel more comfortable in my own place than a random gov office.

 

6. She's great with advice on how various stuff you are doing fulfill the 8 learning areas.

 

I do think if there's home visits it should definitely be with someone who has homeschooling experience themselves and understands about different ways of homeschooling.

[marbel]

Well consider a parent can send their kid to school for years.  They can go to every parent teacher conference.  They can appear like decent parents.  And the truth could be they are abusing their kid.  So what would any sort of meeting or visit accomplish?  If the schools can be clueless and blind to abuse of a child sitting in front of them every day, they won't gather much from a brief meeting. 

 

And that's why home visits to homeschoolers would be useless.  I could clean up my house, strew around lots of books, and have my kids all shiny-bright for a home visit.  But it wouldn't prove anything about our days.  Is the home visit person going to quiz them too?   Poke around the whole house so they can see if the bathtub is full of dirty dishes? 

 

I agree that homeschoolers who do not educate are a problem, just as abusive parents are a problem. I'm not convinced it's a bigger problem than schools which do not educate, or abusive teachers/other adults in schools.  

 

ETA:  Law professor and blogger Glenn Reynolds (instapundit) periodically posts links to news stories about public schools - outrageous punishments, rape by teachers - with the tagline "Why sending your kids to public school may be parental malpractice."    I know the OP asked that we not engage in public school bashing, but this is the kind of thing that makes homeschoolers (or maybe it's just me) resistant to calls for greater oversight. 

[TeacherZee]

I think that it is problematic if the local school is doing the monitoring but many countries have bodies that monitor the schools (OFSTED in the UK and Skolinspektionen in Sweden are two I know about) and these could be organised to oversee portfolio reviews as well. I agree that in home monitoring is in some respects problematic and probably would not be my first choice. At the same time, here Skolinspektionen also monitors the physical environment for our students. We had an inspection last year and one of the things that we were asked to remedy was the fact that they felt that our parking situation caused a danger for students as they walked between buildings. Schools here are also often criticized for not having a library, or not having access to a library. So this body could perhaps monitor this in homeschools as well, although as I said I would not be in favour of this.

 

I do think that schools should have to jump through the same hoops that homeschoolers have to. No matter if we like it or not, children do not belong to the parents or the state, but in general the state, that is its citizens, have a greater intrest in having citizens who are educated to a certain level. Being able to read and do maths is a basic requirment in most Western countries in order to participate as citizens.

 

I find that in many respects many societies and groups have forgotten that yes we have rights, but with those rights come responsibilities. To me we all have a responsibility to ensure that our society functions. That means we have to speak up when something necessary for society isn't working. The education system in many countries is broken and it is up to all of us to help to fix it. That means pointing out when something isn't working. I am outraged that some students in PS aren't learning to read. I speak out about that at every chance I get. I try and make it better with every student that comes into my classroom. I am starting a masters degree in special ed focusing on reading and writing LDs in the fall to do my bit. I think that it is up to homeschoolers to hold each other accountable to certain standards because homeschoolers are better equiped than society in general to understand that different approaches work for different families. But allowing the "Seasons" excuse to go on for years on end is abdicating a responsiblity that we have as citizens when we are given the right to home educate.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Here you get an at home visit once a year. I think it works well. The lady who visits us homeschooled her own kids for a while so she is not anti homeschooling and has some understanding of it all.

 

The benefits of the visit are

 

1. They check the children actually exist. Yes some people register children just for benefits.

2. They can get an idea if there's major neglect. Teachers see kids every day so have opportunities to pick up clues. It's pretty easy to make things look good for one meeting a year. Harder if it's at your house and the whole place is a disaster.

3. Kids love showing her what they've been doing for the year.

4. She brings screeds of info on resources and programmes available

5. I feel more comfortable in my own place than a random gov office.

 

6. She's great with advice on how various stuff you are doing fulfill the 8 learning areas.

 

I do think if there's home visits it should definitely be with someone who has homeschooling experience themselves and understands about different ways of homeschooling.

 

Most of that would not come into play here.  There are no benefits to claiming children you don't have.  There are no resource or programs available to homeschoolers here. 

 

I can't think of any other instances where someone has the right to come to my home so why pick on homeschoolers? 

 

How would one notice abuse?  What would be the signs?  Chains on the walls?  A dungeon in the basement?  The fact a house might be messy is a sign of abuse?  My children's rooms are pretty messy because ya know, they are kids.  Does this mean I'm abusing them?

 

I feel the district only "takes" from me.  They give me nothing.  I'm not giving them more.  That's really what it comes down to for me.  I'm treated in a spirit of being a burden and not with any genuine care about my children's well being so adding an intrusive home visit would be over the top IMO.  I have nothing to hide and would welcome genuine assistance in the spirit of actually wanting to help me.  That's just not how it is here.

 

 

[TammyS]

. But allowing the "Seasons" excuse to go on for years on end is abdicating a responsiblity that we have as citizens when we are given the right to home educate.

 

Citizens do not have a responsibility to the state.  The state has a responsibility to citizens.

 

We are not "given" the right to home educate.  It is a human right, not morally taken by any government, for all parents to direct the upbringing of their children. 

 

I agree that homeschoolers who do a bad job (or no job) of educating are unfortunate.  But I don't believe that there is any 100% solution to this.  Kids have always, and will always "fall through the cracks" (assuming that other even have the right to define what those cracks are).  This will always be the case as long as there is education.  Adding regulations will only add burdens to those who abide by the law, while failing to catch most who don't.  It probably will "catch" those who desire to do a good job, but don't realize they aren't.  But those who don't desire to do a good job (at least by state standards) will ALWAYS find ways around it.  There is nothing, NOTHING, that will ever change that.  It's a fool's errand to even try.

 

[umsami]

Here in Texas, the annual end-of-year test is a joke. Teachers begin teaching its content in January. And Texas is still pretty darn low on the education scale. Standardized test results (and by that I mean SAT, CTBS, something that is *standardized* on a national basis) should never be the only criteria for whether a child may move on to the next grade level.

 

And I would still be opposed to any sort of mandatory testing for homeschooled children, especially if it somehow is supposed to determine whether the child can move on to the next grade. I don't believe homeschooled children should be quantified or defined by "grade level."

 

 

I didn't mean that any sort of testing would determine if homeschooling students moved to a new grade level.  I mean homeschoolers often don't use grade levels.  Rather, I mean it's a chance for the state to see at two points in their career how their math and reading skills are.  If they are fine, fine.  If not, it's a chance to offer additional resources to the homeschooling parents so that the issue doesn't snowball.

 

Why would the state and/or public schools want to support homeschooling?    Why would public school teachers coach homeschooling parents?   Those teachers want the kids in their classrooms.   

 

How about because it's becoming increasingly popular and we want an educated populace? FL is actually rather homeschooling friendly.  Homeschool kids can do public school sports/activities.  There is free dual enrollment in community college in high school.  Homeschool kids can take just one or two courses for free from the online virtual school.  Homeschooling kids are eligible for bright futures college scholarships, etc.  To me, it doesn't seem like a public school vs. homeschool environment here.  

[marbel]

Okay, I'm awake before my kids are, and I'm not feeling so snarky today, so let me offer up my solution to this issue.  :)

 

 

If it comes down to it, I think a possible solution that everyone would be content with would be one where homeschoolers monitor themselves.  As such, there could be a private organization, consisting of homeschoolers, NOT government workers, that would offer up its "seal of approval" to its members.  You could be a member only if you pass a minimum set of standards (show progress in reading, writing, and arithmetic from the previous year, and show it whichever manner you deemed worthy, ie, test scores, portfolios, interviews/home visit, etc.).

 

There are MANY industries that operate this way.  For example, my husband belongs to the American College of Healthcare Executives.  This is a private organization, and members who belong to it are deemed "more worthy" of employment in the healthcare executive world.  Members are given a "seal of approval", and it is known in the industry as a standard.  If you have this membership on your resume, then it is a definite boon.

 

<snip>

 

This organization could become the national "gold standard" in which even non-homeschoolers would recognize the legitimacy of homeschools.  Think of it like the "Good Housekeeping" stamp of approval that so many household products get.  (LOL)

 

I see what you are saying.   But, I don't the point of it.   I understand the benefit to members of a professional society such as your husband's.  But how does that relate to homeschooling?  What is the benefit if I get the "seal of approval?"  Would it make my children more attractive to colleges?   Why does it matter if non-homeschoolers recognize the legitimacy of homeschooling?  

 

Sorry, but before I join and pay my dues, I want to know what it's going to do for me.  :001_smile:

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think that it is problematic if the local school is doing the monitoring but many countries have bodies that monitor the schools (OFSTED in the UK and Skolinspektionen in Sweden are two I know about) and these could be organised to oversee portfolio reviews as well. I agree that in home monitoring is in some respects problematic and probably would not be my first choice. At the same time, here Skolinspektionen also monitors the physical environment for our students. We had an inspection last year and one of the things that we were asked to remedy was the fact that they felt that our parking situation caused a danger for students as they walked between buildings. Schools here are also often criticized for not having a library, or not having access to a library. So this body could perhaps monitor this in homeschools as well, although as I said I would not be in favour of this.

 

In some places here schools can lose their accreditation for not having a library.  There was one such school one town over from me when I lived in CT.   So we technically have something similar here.

 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I see what you are saying.   But, I don't the point of it.   I understand the benefit to members of a professional society such as your husband's.  But how does that relate to homeschooling?  What is the benefit if I get the "seal of approval?"  Would it make my children more attractive to colleges?   Why does it matter if non-homeschoolers recognize the legitimacy of homeschooling?  

 

Sorry, but before I join and pay my dues, I want to know what it's going to do for me.  :001_smile:

 

 

Yes, I'm all for it if it means something for my kids. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I didn't mean that any sort of testing would determine if homeschooling students moved to a new grade level.  I mean homeschoolers often don't use grade levels.  Rather, I mean it's a chance for the state to see at two points in their career how their math and reading skills are.  If they are fine, fine.  If not, it's a chance to offer additional resources to the homeschooling parents so that the issue doesn't snowball.

 

 

How about because it's becoming increasingly popular and we want an educated populace? FL is actually rather homeschooling friend.  Homeschool kids can do public school sports/activities.  There is free dual enrollment in community college in high school.  Homeschool kids can take just one or two courses for free from the online virtual school.  Homeschooling kids are eligible for bright futures college scholarships, etc.  To me, it doesn't seem like a public school vs. homeschool environment here.  

 

We have to test AND there are no resources available to us should there be a problem.

[Murphy101]

Okay, I'm awake before my kids are, and I'm not feeling so snarky today, so let me offer up my solution to this issue. :)

 

 

If it comes down to it, I think a possible solution that everyone would be content with would be one where homeschoolers monitor themselves. As such, there could be a private organization, consisting of homeschoolers, NOT government workers, that would offer up its "seal of approval" to its members. You could be a member only if you pass a minimum set of standards (show progress in reading, writing, and arithmetic from the previous year, and show it whichever manner you deemed worthy, ie, test scores, portfolios, interviews/home visit, etc.).

 

There are MANY industries that operate this way. For example, my husband belongs to the American College of Healthcare Executives. This is a private organization, and members who belong to it are deemed "more worthy" of employment in the healthcare executive world. Members are given a "seal of approval", and it is known in the industry as a standard. If you have this membership on your resume, then it is a definite boon.

 

We could have an organization that "legitimizes" ourselves. An organization that is run by homeschoolers - people IN the industry of homeschooling - and the requirements should be a year of a probationary period, in which time you interview with a senior member so you know the expectations of the organization - in which state laws, curriculum choices, homeschooling styles, recordkeeping, etc. are explained - and after that year you can become a full member if progress is noted in the homeschooling. Again, as stated above, progress can be proven in a number of ways.

 

This organization could become the national "gold standard" in which even non-homeschoolers would recognize the legitimacy of homeschools. Think of it like the "Good Housekeeping" stamp of approval that so many household products get. (LOL)

Oh I'm sure HSLDA would jump all over to do that and I'd be furious.

 

To me, this isn't much different that people going to those home school conferences and hearing from soe guy who doesn't actualy do any homescholing on what constitutes a good Christian Science program and how to kiss dating goodbye. No thank you. Even when I agree with them, no thank you.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh I'm sure HSLDA would jump all over to do that and I'd be furious.

 

To me, this isn't much different that people going to those home school conferences and hearing from soe guy who doesn't actualy do any homescholing on what constitutes a good Christian Science program and how to kiss dating goodbye. No thank you. Even when I agree with them, no thank you.

 

Yeah I'd actually rather deal with school officials than something like that. 

[marbel]

<snip>.

 

 

How about because it's becoming increasingly popular and we want an educated populace? FL is actually rather homeschooling friend.  Homeschool kids can do public school sports/activities.  There is free dual enrollment in community college in high school.  Homeschool kids can take just one or two courses for free from the online virtual school.  Homeschooling kids are eligible for bright futures college scholarships, etc.  To me, it doesn't seem like a public school vs. homeschool environment here.  

 

Pennsylvania is quite different.  I don't have an adversarial relationship with the local public schools, but they are not particularly homeschool-friendly.   Homeschoolers can't even use the public vo-tech school, let alone take single classes at the high school.   Free dual enrollment here has a lot of restrictions - we are paying full tuition for our daughter's DE classes. 

 

Sure, we all want an educated populace but there is not agreement on what that means.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Pennsylvania is quite different.  I don't have an adversarial relationship with the local public schools, but they are not particularly homeschool-friendly.   Homeschoolers can't even use the public vo-tech school, let alone take single classes at the high school.   Free dual enrollment here has a lot of restrictions - we are paying full tuition for our daughter's DE classes. 

 

Sure, we all want an educated populace but there is not agreement on what that means.

 

 

Same here in NY.  No part time attendance.  No joining clubs, sports, etc.  No using school resources.  Schools can opt to lend books, but "opt" is the key word.  My district does not lend books.  Although they lend books to private schools.  So WTH....

[TammyS]

In some places here schools can lose their accreditation for not having a library.  There was one such school one town over from me when I lived in CT.   So we technically have something similar here.

 

 

 

The county I live in just started the accreditation process for it's public school last year.  And that was only because a large number of it's elementary students were going to the (relatively cheap) accredited private school.

[Murphy101]

We have to test AND there are no resources available to us should there be a problem.

This is really a problem even in the schools. MANY kids need support and remedial resources in the schools and parents have to fight long and hard to get them and it frequently takes a long time to happen even once it's approved. Thus it's also usually worst cases get priority.

 

There flat out isn't enough people offering the support and resources to go around for the students enrolled in the schools. And the schools don't pay as well as private practice, so there's not a big incentive to work for them and deal with all extra paperwork and time commitments.

 

I have no idea how those same people/businesses would be able to also do home schoolers.

[Murphy101]

The whole "make resources available to them" sounds like "just go to the specialist dr" when on state medical.

 

Um. It can take months and months to get in to one, more months to get all the testing and evaluations done, and then still more months to start treatments all that stuff says is best.

 

Because there is a small pool of doctors, and an even smaller pool of that who is working with state medical coverages.

 

So "available resources" isn't always as available as people think it is. Sometimes to the point it seems not actually available at all in many areas.

 

Same goes for a seal of approval.

 

Our FDA is so screwed up and in bed with those its supposed to monitor for example. I can totally see the seal of approval for home schooling ending up as a front from nig textbook publishers or people who want to promote themselves at conventions. And it rather misses the mark anyways. Because the problem isn't having a list of materials to use. Or even owning them. It's sitting down and actually educating. How would people even get into this seal of approval thing? Test scores? Only gets making so many points of improvement from year to year get to have it? What would be the incentive to home schoolers to care about having it? Especially when so many don't evalute by testing anyways? (I test once in a while, not even yearly, bc frankly, I know I'm home schooling and it isn't an issue. I just want them to be familiar with what a timed scan tron test format is like.)

[SparklyUnicorn]

The whole "make resources available to them" sounds like "just go to the specialist dr" when on state medical.

 

Um. It can take months and months to get in to one, more months to get all the testing and evaluations done, and then still more months to start treatments all that stuff says is best.

 

Because there is a small pool of doctors, and an even smaller pool of that who is working with state medical coverages.

 

So "available resources" isn't always as available as people think it is. Sometimes to the point it seems not actually available at all in many areas.

 

Same goes for a seal of approval.

 

Our FDA is so screwed up and in bed with those its supposed to monitor for example. I can totally see the seal of approval for home schooling ending up as a front from nig textbook publishers or people who want to promote themselves at conventions. And it rather misses the mark anyways. Because the problem isn't having a list of materials to use. Or even owning them. It's sitting down and actually educating. How would people even get into this seal of approval thing? Test scores? Only gets making so many points of improvement from year to year get to have it? What would be the incentive to home schoolers to care about having it? Especially when so many don't evalute by testing anyways? (I test once in a while, not even yearly, bc frankly, I know I'm home schooling and it isn't an issue. I just want them to be familiar with what a timed scan tron test format is like.)

 

I don't always trust "resources" available to me.  It's interesting how stuff is ALWAYS recommended.  I bet I could get services for both of my kids because they always find something wrong.  There actually are TONS of special ed services available here.  They spend a ton of money on it.  Probably over half the school population in my district gets some service or another.  But yeah in the end this is always on the school's terms. 

 

Kinda like can anyone go to an orthodontist and have any one of them NOT recommend braces?  Of course not.  They can always find something not perfect about one's face.  Because hello we are not plastic store front dummies molded by a machine.

 

 

[AimeeM]

Why would the state and/or public schools want to support homeschooling?    Why would public school teachers coach homeschooling parents?   Those teachers want the kids in their classrooms.   

Well, not always. It was the district's educational psych who told us our daughter would thrive at home, with one-on-one attention, not in one of their local public schools. The teachers and public school support staff who live in our neighborhood are incredibly supportive of us homeschooling - from helping with free speech therapy, to dropping off supplies and coaching me through DS5's reading woes. 

However, we live in an almost abnormally homeschool-friendly area. It is so "normal" here to homeschool, that rarely is an eyelash batted when the locals find out you homeschool ;)

[Murphy101]

I agree with Tibbie and similiar because the root of the problem isn't regulation. And regulation isn't going to fix it.

 

The root of the problem is social acceptance.

 

So making it unacceptable by not being silent or endorsement via affirmation is the better way to effective change imo.

 

And this allows for a wide array of educating and privacy too. Because how kids are being educated isn't what we are debating. I don't think anyways. I hope not.

 

I don't care if they are radical unschoolers or sit at the desk for 8 hours a day 7 days a week and take calculus by 6th grade schoolers. As long as they are educating in some form - I'm fine with it even if I really disagree with it as my own parental approach.

 

But not educating at all is the concern. Parents who just don't care or think it isn't important. That's a social issue that needs dealt with. And it isn't a polite social discussion so it makes people jittery and avoid it in social exchanges. They need to get over that.

[happypamama]

Pennsylvania is quite different. I don't have an adversarial relationship with the local public schools, but they are not particularly homeschool-friendly. Homeschoolers can't even use the public vo-tech school, let alone take single classes at the high school. Free dual enrollment here has a lot of restrictions - we are paying full tuition for our daughter's DE classes.

 

Sure, we all want an educated populace but there is not agreement on what that means.

 

And in my part of PA, the school seems open to letting us participate in classes and activities. We haven't taken advantage of that, but the school reminds us yearly that we are allowed to do so. They're very complimentary towards our homeschoolers and give the idea that they're favorable to us. I still wouldn't want them giving us more oversight, but at least they are pleasant to us.

[marbel]

And in my part of PA, the school seems open to letting us participate in classes and activities. We haven't taken advantage of that, but the school reminds us yearly that we are allowed to do so. They're very complimentary towards our homeschoolers and give the idea that they're favorable to us. I still wouldn't want them giving us more oversight, but at least they are pleasant to us.

 

I have heard that school districts around the state vary in this way.  No evidence for this but from what I've gathered talking to people, the more rural counties are more hs-friendly.  

 

There are not vast numbers of homeschoolers where I live, at least in high school.  Most high school kids are either unschooled or attend cyber charter schools.  At least, as far as I can tell.  I don't have statistics to back that up.  :001_smile:

[happypamama]

I agree with Tibbie and similiar because the root of the problem isn't regulation. And regulation isn't going to fix it.

 

The root of the problem is social acceptance.

 

So making it unacceptable by not being silent or endorsement via affirmation is the better way to effective change imo.

 

And this allows for a wide array of educating and privacy too. Because how kids are being educated isn't what we are debating. I don't think anyways. I hope not.

 

I don't care if they are radical unschoolers or sit at the desk for 8 hours a day 7 days a week and take calculus by 6th grade schoolers. As long as they are educating in some form - I'm fine with it even if I really disagree with it as my own parental approach.

 

But not educating at all is the concern. Parents who just don't care or think it isn't important. That's a social issue that needs dealt with. And it isn't a polite social discussion so it makes people jittery and avoid it in social exchanges. They need to get over that.

I think you are right in your last paragraph. That made me think of something else, too. In our area, a lot of people homeschool for religious and political reasons. They don't want their children in government schools, and they want to provide a mostly Christian environment, but private/Christian schools are out of reach financially. I think these people need some support. Not all of them are equipped to research and teach higher math and whatnot. I feel like these are the people who get stuck, and those are the ones for whom educational neglect can happen. Like, what options do they have? They feel pushed into home educating, but they need more help to do so. Cyber schooling still uses public school materials, which is not palatable to many families. To some degree, I do feel that parents need to gird up their yoga pants and get beyond their own limitations, but not everyone is able to do that. What support do they need? That I don't know, but I feel like this is a group that is set up to fail easily. (Prospective homeschool parent workshops put on by veteran homeschoolers, geared toward parents of kids under age six? One on one mentoring and hand holding? Just thinking out loud.)

[Saddlemomma]

In Maine we have three choices: annual portfolio, annual testing, or letter from certified teacher of academic progress.  We have happily chosen the certified teacher route.

 

It's really nice to have her come in during the summer, sit and have a cup of tea with her, and show her DD's work.  DD has a great time talking with her and explaining her favorite classes and/or assignments.  It helps that the teacher is a friend :thumbup1:  .  However, that wouldn't stop her from telling me if I'm doing something detrimental to DD's education.  This woman is passionate about teaching.

 

After going over all our work, my first question to her is, "What/where are the holes I need to address?".  According to her there never are any holes, thankfully!  Then we talk about educational trends in our perspective circles, how they differ, how they are similar, etc.

 

So, while I don't advocate governmental intrusion, I have found that having someone from the PS system come in and critique our work and educational choices is extremely beneficial to us.  Not only that, but it opens the eyes of those who do work in the PS sector.  Our teacher is thrilled and very surprised at the caliber of our curriculum choices.  It opens lines of communication and bridges two different styles.

 

As others have said, it all comes down to parents.  If parents are willing to fight for quality education for their child, that child is going to receive the best education available according to the child's ability.  If the parents don't care, it's going to be up to the child to search out that education the best they can according to their desire.  If the parent's don't care and the child doesn't care, that child is going to be one of those who falls through the cracks regardless of whether they're homeschooled or in PS.

 

You could put all the controls and testing and reporting in place that you want but you're still never going to have a perfect world where no kids are left behind (no pun intended).  There are just as many kids falling through the cracks with PS as there are in homeschooling.  It's just that homeschooling neglect gains more attention and scrutiny due to the fact it operates out of the mainstream.

[Murphy101]

I think you are right in your last paragraph. That made me think of something else, too. In our area, a lot of people homeschool for religious and political reasons. They don't want their children in government schools, and they want to provide a mostly Christian environment, but private/Christian schools are out of reach financially. I think these people need some support. Not all of them are equipped to research and teach higher math and whatnot.

This won't be resolved by this...

 

(Prospective homeschool parent workshops put on by veteran homeschoolers, geared toward parents of kids under age six? One on one mentoring and hand holding? Just thinking out loud.)

Higher math isn't what a parent home schooling kindergarten needs to have help with. Tho my area has multiple, like half a dozen or so, workshops, meetings, seminars for new home schoolers and for starting high school, where higher math might be an issue. There are many suggestions for help with teaching higher math, the "cheapest" being DVD programs, which really aren't all that cheap, but if found used and made a priority even low in oes can manage. (I know bc I did.) And the community is often very willing to offer help too. I can think of at least two nig organizations that offer FREE materials. Of course one can't always choose what they get with free, but many times the offerings are quite excellent. I have organized and dispersed free materials several times myself and driven people to where they can get it when out of town. (Benefit of a 12 passenger van.)

 

The problem is not that the parents can't do higher math. Many parents who aren't very higher math proficient themselves seek to still offer it to their kids.

 

The problem is that people who aren't interested in educating their child won't avail themselves of these access points.

 

Ifeel like these are the people who get stuck, and those are the ones for whom educational neglect can happen.

This is not my personal experience. For me, I've never met anyone who didn't teach it truely bc of ideological issues with curricula options. There are MANY curricula options for the basics and Tho not as many for higher subjects, they are still rather plentiful. They find themselves stuck and work to get unstuck.

 

The few cases of educational neglect I've seen personally, the biggest issue was that they weren't stuck at all and weren't particuliarly concerned about it even if they were. They didn't teach higher maths or basic reading or seek opportunities to have it provided to their student bc they flat out aren't concerned about it. For them, it's just a non issue. The problem isn't that they are thirsty and need someone to give them water. The problem is they have multiple water sources and refuse to drink bc they don't think they need a drink or because they think it's all kool aid and silly to drink it just bc everyone says they should,

[mamajag]

I do think that there is too much of a MYOB attitude towards homeschoolers who neglect the education of their children.  I also think States could help by perhaps providing lists of 'successful" curricula that work well, or recommendations, or what not.  Should they be requirements? No.  But kind of like with the WTM book, these are some good solid programs that work.  States that really wanted to support homeschooling could also consider having free webinars by teachers for parents in how to teach certain subjects that may be more difficult.

 

You realize that the states have yet to find curricula that is across the board successful, right? Based purely on results, none of the states have any business handing out educational advice.

 

I fight every single attempt to regulate homeschooling no matter how benign it seems. This whole educational neglect thing is a fear tactic to encourage more oversight and control. Recently there was a seemingly great bill introduced in our state. It was going to allow homeschoolers access to ALL public school extracurriculars. Thankfully homeschoolers read the bill. They were going to require the Common Core tests yearly for all homeschoolers and were hoping we wouldn't notice it buried in the bill. It died in committee under an avalanche of homeschoolers calling and emailing about the stunt they were trying to pull.

 

I brought my kids home because the system does not work. I don't need that failed system asserting itself in my home.

 

As for educational neglect, I've reported it on the same child multiple times. The judge ordered the child assessed to enter school, he enters a grade 5 years beneath him and starts attending, and then the psychologists decided it's too harmful to have him in a class fully of students younger than him. The parent enrolled the child in a private tutoring program for a little while, and it would start all over again. Finally the parents managed to convince the courts and everyone that he was learning disabled because he was 15 and couldn't read a do not enter sign. Poor boy was never taught anything. He used to hang out at my house, and I did teach him to read some one summer before his parents stopped allowing him to come over. He was very, very bright. I don't understand how so many experts got his case so wrong.

[Χά�ων]

As long as the public schools continue to fail I do not think a good solution for monitoring homeschoolers will be possible.

[EmseB]

Well just to lighten the mood, today I've found that recuperating from childbirth is a great reason to skip school!!

 

 

:D

[kiana]

FWIW, I don't really consider not teaching higher math educational neglect. If they understand arithmetic, they can be through developmental math in one year at a CC and ready for calculus after a second. I do consider it very sub-optimal and I would never choose to go that way, but I don't consider it neglectful per se. A kid who can read and do arithmetic can fill in a lot of other holes. 

 

I think of that kind of like the way I do feeding your kid nothing but Swanson dinners. It's really sub-optimal and not very nutritious, but you are feeding your kid. 

[mamajag]

Perhaps it's also that. I don't know; I don't live in the US. I am pretty sure this thread was inspired by the other current thread about a real situation, however. Real cases of educational neglect exist. The case you mention is clearly an example of a completely unacceptable situation. The question is, what do we think should be done about this? As some posters have already mentioned, if cases like that are prevalent, our homeschool freedoms are all at risk. It's perhaps not up to us — other homeschoolers — to solve this issue, because we can't and it's not our responsibility, but it is very natural for us to think about this problem.

 

Perhaps no solution exists. Likely, strict oversight would harm many more families than would benefit. But these things do happen, those children do deserve support, and their rights should not be buried in "parental rights advocacy". And yes, public schools fail horrifically sometimes, but that does not mean this is not a real problem.

I suppose I'm skeptical of increased regulation being pushed as a solution to the problem when the system that is supposed to be rectifying the neglect is such a mess as to be nonexistent. Why burden parents, the majority of which are doing the right thing, with onerous new testing and regulations if there is nothing of substance that will happen once neglect is confirmed? What is the point of labeling neglect? Can I report my F-rated school district for mass educational neglect? Why not?

 

(I am not exaggerating or bashing public schools in general...my school district is truly an F district.)

[Ms.Ivy]

I suppose I'm skeptical of increased regulation being pushed as a solution to the problem when the system that is supposed to be rectifying the neglect is such a mess as to be nonexistent. Why burden parents, the majority of which are doing the right thing, with onerous new testing and regulations if there is nothing of substance that will happen once neglect is confirmed? What is the point of labeling neglect? Can I report my F-rated school district for mass educational neglect? Why not?

 

(I am not exaggerating or bashing public schools in general...my school district is truly an F district.)

 

This is my difficulty, too.  The public elementary school in my neighborhood only has one out of four students able to meet the bare minimum requirements for grade level.  Only 1 out of 20 can read and write at a 3rd grade level by 3rd grade.  I just don't get it.  I especially don't get people who think my kids should be tested every year and if they're not meeting the state standards, they should be put in that public school instead -- where the odds are overwhelmingly in favor of them never meeting the standards anyway (at least not without a lot of help from me at home).  Our local high school is so bad that many teachers don't bother to assign homework because the kids won't do it anyway.  The whole thing is so complicated.

[SparklyUnicorn]

How do we protect children from neglect and abuse in general?  We don't require parents to take tests, prove their parenting skills, or endure home visits.  So why with homeschoolers?  KWIM?  Neglect happens in homes, schools, etc.  You might even assume neglect can't happen in schools.  So how do some kids get through school and can barely read or do basic math?  How did they graduate?  I've met some people that had no documented learning disabilities so either someone dropped the ball or they were neglected (probably both).

 

In a lot of cases, kids don't get what they need because parents don't fight for it.  I would not consider that neglectful in all cases because I think it's reasonable for a parent to believe that a school is filled with people who are experts at teaching and learning. 

[Ms.Ivy]

I understand that. But this thread and grass-roots attempts to discuss this issue are not a government push. This is just homeschool parents discussing a real issue.

 

I guess your F-rated district is already aware that neglect is going on. That is a serious problem, but it does not make educational neglect within homeschools any less of a serious problem.

 

I think it's going to take a lot of push back from people like us who care, speaking up and public condemning and privately expressing concern directly to people who don't educate their children.  I think pastors need to address it, too.  

[Murphy101]

I understand that. But this thread and grass-roots attempts to discuss this issue are not a government push. This is just homeschool parents discussing a real issue.

 

I guess your F-rated district is already aware that neglect is going on. That is a serious problem, but it does not make educational neglect within homeschools any less of a serious problem.

Oh no I bet they aren't aware of it. I bet they are adament that they are doing great and that these expectations are unreasonable and the testing is skewed and it is not their fault. Bet money on that.

 

When many of the grass roots suggestions are the same things that don't work for public schools, that's not very helpful imo.

 

No one is saying crappy parents who just don't careabout their child's education is not a serious problem. It is.

 

But it is a social problem, not a paperwork problem.

[Wildiris]

Can we have a discussion on ideas or ways the homeschooled children can be protected from educational neglect? This could include state laws, non-profit organizations, or self-policing within the movement. 

 

I really feel that homeschoolers will lose some of the liberty they have today if this issue isn't addressed somehow. Ultimately, they could lost the privilege to homeschool altogether. More and more stories come out about children that have been ill-served by homeschooling, particularly as there are now more adults that were homeschooled growing up and are telling their (often sad) stories.

 

Yes, we acknowledge there are many, many homeschool success stories. It is a wonderful form of education for many families, including ours.

 

 

First, How should educational neglect be defined?

 

In order for this not to spin out of hand, can we follow the parameters below?

 

--Can we have this be a broad discussion and not focus on specific children you know or exceptional situations that wouldn't broadly apply? 

 

--Please don't use this discussion to bring up other areas of neglect in the home. While these may or may not be paired with educational neglect, this should probably have a different thread.

 

--Please don't use this discussion to bash public schools. i.e. "Until public schools raise their standard and keep kids from fall between the cracks, people need to lay off homeschoolers." So, even if people educated in other ways have been failed, it is not relevant for this discussion. 

How does one define educational neglect?

 

A homeschool student can be educated, but that education can be very narrow, resulting in a student being unable to attend college and able to hold only a minimum wage job, thus unable to support a family. The same can be said of a student attending public school or private school.  The job market is driving the need for a better educated workforce. Why hobble your children by not educating them? Will we see an increase in adult homeschool students suing their parents for educational neglect?

 

The question can be flipped too: "How does one define being educated?" Asking these questions is begging for governance and policing to see that homeschool families and both private and public schools comply to a definition.  Mandatory testing and oversight is one way to address and define educational deficiency/proficiency. If one homeschools through a charter school one must comply with state regulations; however, if one homeschools as private school there is little or no oversight. Is oversight of private homeschoolers a good thing? Could oversight have prevented the story mamajag related? 

 

Personally, I dissuade all who ask me about homeschooling. Too often people see homeschooling as an option do whatever they want and call it school. This may work for K-3, but a young mind is too precious to waste. 

 

 

 

   

[kiana]

How do we protect children from neglect and abuse in general?  We don't require parents to take tests, prove their parenting skills, or endure home visits.  So why with homeschoolers?  KWIM?  Neglect happens in homes, schools, etc.  You might even assume neglect can't happen in schools.  So how do some kids get through school and can barely read or do basic math?  How did they graduate?  I've met some people that had no documented learning disabilities so either someone dropped the ball or they were neglected (probably both).

 

Well, as far as that goes, with other ways to neglect children there are physical indications. For example, not feeding your kid can result in them being underweight, neglecting their dental care can result in a mouthful of rotten teeth, etc. So we don't make people take "are you feeding your kid" tests because we assume that if the kid is not clearly malnourished they are being fed. These indications are usually clear enough that you'd see them in casual observation.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, as far as that goes, with other ways to neglect children there are physical indications. For example, not feeding your kid can result in them being underweight, neglecting their dental care can result in a mouthful of rotten teeth, etc. So we don't make people take "are you feeding your kid" tests because we assume that if the kid is not clearly malnourished they are being fed. These indications are usually clear enough that you'd see them in casual observation.

 

Yes with severe neglect that will happen.  But not everything is obvious.  There is also such a thing as emotional abuse, sexual abuse, etc.  Who at school would notice signs of sexual abuse? 

[kiana]

Yes with severe neglect that will happen.  But not everything is obvious.  There is also such a thing as emotional abuse, sexual abuse, etc.  Who at school would notice signs of sexual abuse? 

 

Absolutely true, although I was more thinking of "other ways to neglect children".

 

I'm pretty opposed to any sort of mandatory home visits in any case, but requiring a test be taken (like Arkansas) seems reasonable. At least then the parents can't stick their fingers in their ears and pretend Junior is just fine when he can't read.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think it's going to take a lot of push back from people like us who care, speaking up and public condemning and privately expressing concern directly to people who don't educate their children.  I think pastors need to address it, too.  

 

But doesn't this assume there is some connection between religion and homeschooling?  Lots of people who homeschool are not religious.  There are religious leaders who don't agree with or approve of homeschooling. 

 

Just goes back to the fact homeschoolers aren't really a group.  Some organize and get together, many don't.  Since I've been homeschooling I've been in about 10 groups.  Groups come and go.  Homeschoolers come and go.  I know very few who have been in it for the long haul. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Absolutely true, although I was more thinking of "other ways to neglect children".

 

I'm pretty opposed to any sort of mandatory home visits in any case, but requiring a test be taken (like Arkansas) seems reasonable. At least then the parents can't stick their fingers in their ears and pretend Junior is just fine when he can't read.

 

Yeah I don't disagree with that. 

 

What is "like Arkansas"? 

 

[kiana]

Yeah I don't disagree with that. 

 

What is "like Arkansas"? 

 

 

Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread -- that you were required to have them take a standardized test for informational purposes but you didn't have to score anything on it, just document that it was taken.

 

I like the idea and quite honestly it could also help parents who are educating in a non-traditional manner and challenged about educational neglect -- scoring on grade level or thereabouts should result in charges being immediately found unsubstantiated.

[marbel]

I think it's going to take a lot of push back from people like us who care, speaking up and public condemning and privately expressing concern directly to people who don't educate their children.  I think pastors need to address it, too.  

 

How so?   Not challenging you, just curious what you mean / how it should be addressed.   My pastor knows my family pretty well, has spoken to my kids a lot, etc., but he wouldn't have any way of knowing if, for example, I was not teaching them any math or science.  I know that if he saw signs of abuse of my children (or of me) he would take action, but, how would he know about educational neglect?

 

(BTW I belong to a denomination that requires pastors to have a master's degree from a seminary - admission to which requires a bachelor's - and definitely does not promote anti-intellectualism, keeping girls uneducated, etc.)

[SparklyUnicorn]

Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread -- that you were required to have them take a standardized test for informational purposes but you didn't have to score anything on it, just document that it was taken.

 

I like the idea and quite honestly it could also help parents who are educating in a non-traditional manner and challenged about educational neglect -- scoring on grade level or thereabouts should result in charges being immediately found unsubstantiated.

 

Ah well I live in the land of having to jump through way more hoops than submitting a standardized test that doesn't count.  I have to submit tests and they have to have minimal scores or I get people breathing down my neck.  (However, the required minimal score is very low.)  I have to write out a yearly detailed plan.  I have to report 4 times a year regarding progress and what we have done.  Etc.  Of course I could write anything and do something else.  I don't mind the idea of testing.  The rest of it is pointless IMO.

[Pod's mum]

External testing could raise problems for children that are being home educated because they learn differently. (Home Ed for religious reasons is not such a strong wave here in Australia.) Many families came to Home Education initially reluctantly because their children were slipping through the gaps.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to, just that it  may be harder to demonstrate that they are doing so.

My kid/s do external testing bi-annually though this is not a general requirement. Thankfully we now have some evaluations that explain to 'others' (the father) why their results are all over the board.

 

[Pod's mum]

In our State we also have an annual Education Dept home visit and need to supply a few pages setting out how we have covered the 7 key learning areas, appropriate learning environment and the ubiquitous 'socialisation opportunities'.

Our Education Dept now supplies a dedicated and educated department who support families who can get it together and redirect those who, even with extra time and encouragement are unable.

 

These hoops to jump through do cause concern the first few times, but soon become a useful annual review. As a teacher it is a good oportunity to discuss our curriculum choices with interested others who want to both to find new resourses to share with other parents and offer suggestions if I wish.

 

Because we have been prepared to fully support this system, we have recieved support back from them when in Court fighting other parent for right to continue to Home Educate. The other party subpoened a file filled with many years of very detailed annual reviews and a record of on-going tailored education.

 

My children have a right to be educated. I like that I have the right to provide that, provided that I do.

 

[catz]

Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread -- that you were required to have them take a standardized test for informational purposes but you didn't have to score anything on it, just document that it was taken.

 

I like the idea and quite honestly it could also help parents who are educating in a non-traditional manner and challenged about educational neglect -- scoring on grade level or thereabouts should result in charges being immediately found unsubstantiated.

 

Annually this is required in MN as well.  I am perfectly fine with this requirement.  You can use any standardized test.  My 8th grader is taking the ACT this year because why not?  It's good practice and he's a kid that's up for it.  My 5th grader this year took the EXPLORE (normed for 8th grade) through a talent search.

 

I have never chosen for my kids to do testing that would require sitting down for a week and filling bubbles.  Before they were old enough for talent search stuff we did open ended oral testing (Peabody K-12, very much like the Woodcock Johnson).  Much more interesting for asynchronous kids than testing at grade level on everything over many days/hours and given in a conversational tone in an hour or 2, no prep needed at all.

 

ETA - the requirement is that you test.  Not that you use any particular type of test and you absolutely do NOT report scores.  There is really no enforcement.  It seems way easier to me than the states that require a portfolio review, etc.  I know it has served as a wake up call for a few homeschooling parents.  For college bound kids, I actually think starting at jr. high it's not a bad idea to get used to a timed, bubble test. 

[mamajag]

Oh no I bet they aren't aware of it. I bet they are adament that they are doing great and that these expectations are unreasonable and the testing is skewed and it is not their fault. Bet money on that.

 

When many of the grass roots suggestions are the same things that don't work for public schools, that's not very helpful imo.

 

No one is saying crappy parents who just don't careabout their child's education is not a serious problem. It is.

 

But it is a social problem, not a paperwork problem.

Here they say the assessments are too difficult and the standards need to be lowered and that the budget is far too small.

 

Homeschool educational neglect is an issue, but what doesn't seem to be clear to those replying to me is that I do not believe it is an issue in need of new legislation or policies. If you know someone isn't educating their children on a consistent basis (and we've all met one that brags about how little they do), report it to the authorities over investigating educational neglect and move on. We don't need to feed the government information on every law-abiding homeschooler in the state just because a few bad apples exist. Educational neglect statutes exist already. Use them.

[IsabelC]

I actually really like the system we have here in Tasmania.

Our home ed authority is not controlled by the Education Dept at all; instead it is an independent body that reports directly to the Minister for Education. At least half the members of the Home Education Council have to be drawn from the home ed community, so it there are always experienced home ed people on it.

We have no testing requirements, although we do have the option of giving our kids the same standardized tests that they would do in school. The only requirements are that we address the key areas of Numeracy, Literacy, Social Skills and (for students aged 14 and above only) Career Planning. These areas can be addressed in any way (including an unschooling approach) and we can demonstrate progress in these areas by any method or combination of methods (eg portfolio of work, textbook levels completed, test results, notes, diary, blog, photos, videos).

On registering for home ed, you have to submit a short document outlining your educational approach and how you propose to meet the requirements. They have a Monitoring Officer who conducts home visits, usually every 1-2 years but can be more frequently if there are any issues. She comes with a very positive attitude: basically they aim to approve everybody where possible, so in case of the requirements not being met she would discuss with the parents what the issues are and options for tweaking the program to fulfill legal obligations, then they would have another visit some months later to check that the changes have been made. (AFAIK, the only time they would ever not approve a family would be if little or no efforts are being made to facilitate the kids' education, eg parent trying to register so the kids can loiter about in the city instead of attending school, or parents grossly incompetent due to drug addiction etc.)

 

We have found that this system works perfectly for us. Having to write up our plan and talk to the Monitoring Officer occasionally isn't very onerous or intrusive, and explaining what we do to somebody else actually helps me to keep on top of things myself. I particularly love that we never have to be evaluated by anyone from the school system or anyone who is anti home ed. 

 

ETA - also there are no grade equivalence standards, as a kid's progress is evaluated individually. So for example, my 6th grader is working on 5th grade math, but this is OK because even though he is "behind", he is a year ahead of where he was last year (or rather more, actually, because I have accelerated him to gradually catch him up). If a kid has significant special needs, you get asked to submit evidence of this, presumably so you can't do nothing with your kid and then pretend that a learning disability is the reason they can't read at age 12.

[mamajag]

Absolutely true, although I was more thinking of "other ways to neglect children".

 

I'm pretty opposed to any sort of mandatory home visits in any case, but requiring a test be taken (like Arkansas) seems reasonable. At least then the parents can't stick their fingers in their ears and pretend Junior is just fine when he can't read.

There's no need for the test for everyone. Here if educational neglect is suspected, the judge orders testing and evaluation for any learning disabilities before the case goes to trial. Believe me, even in the face of testing, those who don't care won't care.

[TeenagerMom]

The Arkansas Legislature is actually working on/considering a bill to eliminate testing for homeschooled students. The bill is currently in committee and has a lot of support from the committee. In Arkansas, homeschool students are the ONLY students in the state required to test. Public school parents can opt out and private schools are not required to test. Arkansas also just passed a bill to eliminate using the PARCC test.

 

I would fight any legislation that required home visits, portfolios, or requiring my high schooler to be dual enrolled. She would have a cow. She LEFT public school because of the toxic environment and has NO desire to go back and shouldn't be forced to.