college algebra at CC (should dd jump in?)

[sweetsouthern]

dd just finished up Jacobs algebra and is starting Jacobs geometry.  she will be taking a dual enrollment English class in a few weeks. im trying to plan a bit ahead, assuming she does as well with geometry as she did with algebra, im wondering if she could take a college algebra class for dual enrollment in the spring. I guess the other options would be to take algebra 2 at home or to take intermediate algebra for dual first. since the math curriculums are so expensive, even used, I was thinking it might just be best to do them as dual. (of course this would depend on how she would test on the entrance exam for math, but lets assume for argument sake she tests into college algebra). thoughts anyone? 

[Lori D.]

Short answer: no.

 

Long answer: no, for several reasons:

 

College Algebra is not the same as high school Algebra 2. There is some overlap, but a student would need to have completed a Algebra 2 program before going on to College Algebra. JMO, but Jacobs Algebra and Geometry, while good, would NOT be enough of a foundation for the majority of students to go straight to College Algebra via dual enrollment and succeed.

 

And even if DD passes the admission assessment tests for Reading and Math at a high enough level to admit her to College Algebra, that doesn't mean that is the best choice for her. College courses go at twice the speed that she is used to (one semester college = one year high school). And college grades are a permanent part of the transcript GPA, and can affect possible future scholarships or entrance to special programs.

 

For a high school student's first outing with dual enrollment, it's a good idea to go slow, with just one class, to learn how to learn in a college class setting, how to study and schedule yourself, and the extreme importance of learning how to make use of the teacher's office hours and whatever free tutoring the school offers as soon as any problem starts to surface, so the student doesn't fall horribly behind in just a week's time.

 

 

For just starting dual enrollment, starting slow with just one class, and choosing a subject that the student naturally excels, in is always a good choice. Another good choice for dual enrollment is Foreign Language -- knocks out a typical college gen. ed requirement AND you get an experienced teacher, plus language labs and in-class conversation exposure. And foreign language programs and resources are usually pretty expensive for homeschoolers.

 

I understand wanting to save time and money by dual enrolling and "doing the math just once"… But instead of trying to substitute College Algebra this year for high school Algebra 2, perhaps consider using a lower-cost Algebra 2 program. Or buying used. Or buying an older edition (usually much cheaper). Or borrowing from a homeschooling friend. Or doing a curriculum swap with another homeschooler -- trade something you're finished with for an Algebra 2 program.

 

And once your DD has completed an Alg. 2 program this year, then have her take the community college math assessment test again, and see if she tests into being able to take College Algebra. If so, then do that as your advanced high school math AND your college credit math.

 

BEST of luck in your math and your dual enrollment adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[regentrude]

I second what Lori said. College algebra is not equal to algebra 2.

 

Also, an algebra 2 curriculum does not have to be expensive - you can purchase used texts for under $5 including shipping.  

[elegantlion]

I second what Lori said. College algebra is not equal to algebra 2.

 

Also, an algebra 2 curriculum does not have to be expensive - you can purchase used texts for under $5 including shipping.  

 

For example, I have this edition of Lial's Intermediate Algebra. The solutions manual is used from .25 cents. 

 

Here is the matching student text, from 1.50 used. 

[AngieW in Texas]

As the others have said, have her work through Algebra II first and THEN she can take College Algebra.

[Lori D.]

For example, I have this edition of Lial's Intermediate Algebra. The solutions manual is used from .25 cents. 

 

Here is the matching student text, from 1.50 used. 

 

And Lial's is a good choice of program as follow up to Jacobs. :) And don't forget some of the FREE helps available, such as Khan Academy, Online Math Learning, and HippoCampus tutorials and videos.

[sweetsouthern]

thank you everyone! we will do algebra 2 then at home first  ;) 

[Ellie]

dd just finished up Jacobs algebra and is starting Jacobs geometry.  she will be taking a dual enrollment English class in a few weeks. im trying to plan a bit ahead, assuming she does as well with geometry as she did with algebra, im wondering if she could take a college algebra class for dual enrollment in the spring. I guess the other options would be to take algebra 2 at home or to take intermediate algebra for dual first. since the math curriculums are so expensive, even used, I was thinking it might just be best to do them as dual. (of course this would depend on how she would test on the entrance exam for math, but lets assume for argument sake she tests into college algebra). thoughts anyone? 

 

Here's my story:

 

We did not do algebra at home. Older dd began taking classes at c.c. when she was 14; she tested into basic arithmetic, which was fine with me because, you know, she was just 14. :-) She took basic arithmetic and passed; pre-algebra and passed; then algebra 1 (which was college level), algebra 2, and statistics, all of which she aced.

 

Which is to say that your dd will have far more math under her belt than my dd did. I say let her go for it.

[Jen in NY]

Here's my story:

 

We did not do algebra at home. Older dd began taking classes at c.c. when she was 14; she tested into basic arithmetic, which was fine with me because, you know, she was just 14. :-) She took basic arithmetic and passed; pre-algebra and passed; then algebra 1 (which was college level), algebra 2, and statistics, all of which she aced.

 

Which is to say that your dd will have far more math under her belt than my dd did. I say let her go for it.

 

Hmmm.... Maybe your daughter was so successful because she took the pre-reqs for algebra 1 right there at the CC?

 

I'd look very closely at the scope and sequence of what has been done and what would be expected in the College Algebra class before jumping in.

[kiana]

Doing algebra 2 first is a much wiser decision. Skipping levels is nearly always a bad idea, except for the rare student who is both in the top 10% of intellectual ability and thrives on challenge/is bored by any sort of repetition.

[Susie in CA]

In short: No. I would not have her do College Algebra after Algebra I. College Algebra is not the same as Algebra II in highschool which is why at the CC the course progression is Beginning Algebra (Algebra I), Intermediate Algebra (Algebra II) and then College Algebra.

 

The options you have as I see it:

 

1. Finish Jacobs Geometry at home. Take Algebra II at home and then take the assessment test and see where she test in. She may test into College Algebra in which case you may consider her taking it. I would still evaluate this based on how she did in Geometry and Algebra II at home.

 

2. Finish Jacobs Geometry at home. Take the assessment test at the CC and see where she test in. She then may be able to take Intermediate Algebra (which  is Algebra II)  at the CC. Go on to College Algebra after that.

 

3. Take the assessment test now and have her start at the CC where ever she test in.

 

My preferred option would be option 1. The math classes at the CC are exhilarated and this can be overwhelming. I know it was for my son last year. He took Pre-Algebra in the fall and Algebra I in the spring at the CC. While he did fine it was a lot of work for him. This year he is taking Geometry at the highschool to slow down the pace for him. He'll probably go back to the CC for Intermediate Algebra (Algebra II) next fall.

 

Hope this helps.

 

[MarkT]

For example, I have this edition of Lial's Intermediate Algebra. The solutions manual is used from .25 cents. 

 

Here is the matching student text, from 1.50 used. 

 

thanks for putting in a direct link -  popular authors have many different flavors of their textbooks and it is hard to determine which edition is acceptable

 

 

Since it is called "Intermediate Algebra"  I would assume that the initial target audience was CC students versus HS.

 

It would be nice if this site had a Wiki feature where plus and minuses for each different text book could be centrally located.  Maybe someone has some free time to set one up on a free wiki site.

 

 

[elegantlion]

thanks for putting in a direct link -  popular authors have many different flavors of their textbooks and it is hard to determine which edition is acceptable

 

Since it is called "Intermediate Algebra"  I would assume that the initial target audience was CC students versus HS.

 

It would be nice if this site had a Wiki feature where plus and minuses for each different text book could be centrally located.  Maybe someone has some free time to set one up on a free wiki site.

 

You might do a search here. I know there have been past discussions about how to use the Lial's series for high school. The search feature here is adequate, but you can get better results if you google "well trained mind lials" - for instance. 

 

It would be nice if we had a sticky at the top of the forum on math for high school. The science ones have been very helpful. I'm certainly not the one to do it, though. 

[EKS]

College Algebra is more like Algebra 3--In fact, it is the algebra part of precalculus. 

[Ellie]

Hmmm.... Maybe your daughter was so successful because she took the pre-reqs for algebra 1 right there at the CC?

 

I'd look very closely at the scope and sequence of what has been done and what would be expected in the College Algebra class before jumping in.

 

No, I don't think so.

 

I just cannot imagine that the one pre-algebra course she took prepared her more than all the algebra the OP's dd is doing at home.

 

Don't most community colleges have placement tests? Seems to me if the OP's dd took that and tested into algebra, she'd be able to do it.

[SkateLeft]

Our CC offers two math pathways.

 

The first is College Algebra (3 credits), then Trigonometry (4 credits), then Calculus. 

 

The second is a 5 credit Pre-Calc class which leads to Calculus the next semester. Pre-Calculus is an accelerated one semester combination of the College Algebra and Trig classes.

 

In our state, there is really no way that a student without a high school Algebra 2 course would test into College Algebra. Algebra 2 is a prerequisite for College Algebra.

 

If the OP's child placed into College Algebra on the basis of the Accuplacer, Compass, ACT, etc., then of course, give it a shot. However, here it is absolutely NOT the equivalent of Algebra 2. It's the algebra portion of Pre-Calc.My state dual enrollment program does not allow highschoolers to take any class below college level, and College Algebra is the first math class that is labeled as "college level."

 

All this to say that it varies from state to state and CC to CC. It also changes over time. It's really best to just have the child take the CC placement test and see where they place.

[Dana]

And Lial's is a good choice of program as follow up to Jacobs. :) And don't forget some of the FREE helps available, such as Khan Academy, Online Math Learning, and HippoCampus tutorials and videos.

And interact math

http://interactmath.com/home.aspx

 

It doesn't save any of your work, but the Help Me Solve it feature is good.

 

I teach from the Woodbury elementary and intermediate algebra text and like it a lot.

[bluedarling]

My son took the Accuplacer this spring and tested into Pre-Calculus (I have no idea how!!)  He was currently taking basic algebra! (MUS--he's a slow but accurate worker, but is very behind in math due to his speed!)   He had me give a real brief introduction to sin, cos, tan when he saw it on the practice test, but other than that spent very little time preparing for the test. That said, I knew there was no way that child could skip Geometry and Alg 2 and do well!  The dual enrollment registrar agreed that those who try that usually have to go backwards and pick up classes they missed.  We are holding off on dual enrollment this year because of that (and other reasons.) 

 

This didn't quote right...this part taken from previous email I was quoting:

 

In our state, there is really no way that a student without a high school Algebra 2 course would test into College Algebra. Algebra 2 is a prerequisite for College Algebra.

 

If the OP's child placed into College Algebra on the basis of the Accuplacer, Compass, ACT, etc., then of course, give it a shot. However, here it is absolutely NOT the equivalent of Algebra 2. It's the algebra portion of Pre-Calc.

 

[kiana]

No, I don't think so.

 

I just cannot imagine that the one pre-algebra course she took prepared her more than all the algebra the OP's dd is doing at home.

 

Don't most community colleges have placement tests? Seems to me if the OP's dd took that and tested into algebra, she'd be able to do it.

 

All the algebra? She's done exactly one course more than your dd.

 

If OP's dd does a second year of algebra at home, then placement in college algebra is probably appropriate. Placement in intermediate algebra at the CC would probably be fine as well as long as she passed the placement test.

 

ETA: These placement tests are designed for students who are finished with their high school math sequence and out of high school. Skipping a course you know they haven't had is like taking a kid who's had Saxon 5/4, giving them the Saxon placement test, and saying 'Oh! They did really well! They placed into Saxon 8/7! That's what we're doing next year! They passed the placement test, after all!"

 

ETA #2: After reading Matryoshka's post, I wonder if she's right and possibly you're confusing college algebra (algebra 3) with "algebra taken at the college"?

[Matryoshka]

Here's my story:

 

We did not do algebra at home. Older dd began taking classes at c.c. when she was 14; she tested into basic arithmetic, which was fine with me because, you know, she was just 14. :-) She took basic arithmetic and passed; pre-algebra and passed; then algebra 1 (which was college level), algebra 2, and statistics, all of which she aced.

 

Which is to say that your dd will have far more math under her belt than my dd did. I say let her go for it.

 

But your dd started out much further back than College Algebra, and in fact never even got to it (it would have been an alternate course after Algebra2/intermediate Algebra instead of Statistics).  College Algebra is not Algebra 1 at a 'college' level - it's meant to be taken after Algebra 2.

 

Her dd might think of taking Intermediate Algebra (equivalent to Alg2) at the CC if she wants to take something there; just not College Algebra yet.

 

But the point is kinda moot, I'd think - wouldn't she have to take the Accuplacer to take any math course, and start where they tell her to?

 

[kiana]

But the point is kinda moot, I'd think - wouldn't she have to take the Accuplacer to take any math course, and start where they tell her to?

 

Almost always you can start lower than you place, especially if you're dual enrolled and explain that you haven't had that class yet.

 

Sometimes a thorough knowledge of the course that the student has had will result in artificially high placement tests. A few are mentioned in this thread, but I've also heard of someone who placed into calc 1 after Saxon algebra 2 and someone who placed into college algebra after taking pre-algebra with the UCSMP book. Clearly in neither case was this an appropriate placement.

 

[Ellie]

But your dd started out much further back than College Algebra, and in fact never even got to it (it would have been an alternate course after Algebra2/intermediate Algebra instead of Statistics).  College Algebra is not Algebra 1 at a 'college' level - it's meant to be taken after Algebra 2.

 

Her dd might think of taking Intermediate Algebra (equivalent to Alg2) at the CC if she wants to take something there; just not College Algebra yet.

 

But the point is kinda moot, I'd think - wouldn't she have to take the Accuplacer to take any math course, and start where they tell her to?

 

 

You misunderstand. My dd took college-level Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 and Statistics, all lower-division, college-level requirements, which transferred to San Jose State University.  Her community college didn't even offer a high school-level algebra. What would be the point of that? :confused1:

[Paige]

In my experience, College Algebra was essentially the Pre-Calculus I had taken in high school, which was the expected course after Alg 2. 

[kiana]

You misunderstand. My dd took college-level Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 and Statistics, all lower-division, college-level requirements, which transferred to San Jose State University.  Her community college didn't even offer a high school-level algebra. What would be the point of that? :confused1:

College-level algebra 1 and 2 at community colleges are high-school level algebra 1 and 2. They cover the exact same material and are frequently taught with the same books. They are just taught over a semester instead of over a year.

 

The "College algebra" the OP is asking about is the third algebra course, following beginning algebra (algebra 1) and intermediate algebra (algebra 2). It is the first half of pre-calculus and would be followed by either trigonometry or pre-calculus (depending on what her CC calls it).

 

ETA: And now I see where the miscommunication is coming from, I think, because the rest of us were seeing "college algebra = algebra 3", and I think you were seeing "college algebra = any algebra class taken at a college". This is not currently so at most universities, although there could be one somewhere that refers to it that way.

[Matryoshka]

You misunderstand. My dd took college-level Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 and Statistics, all lower-division, college-level requirements, which transferred to San Jose State University.  Her community college didn't even offer a high school-level algebra. What would be the point of that? :confused1:

 

In my experience, College Algebra was essentially the Pre-Calculus I had taken in high school, which was the expected course after Alg 2.

 

 

 

From everything I've ever heard anyone else say, "College Algebra" is the first half of Precalculus.  You're saying your dd went from Pre-Algebra to Precalculus?  Algebra 1, as far as I can tell, is Algebra 1, whether taken at college or not...  However would she manage skipping two whole levels of math... :confused1:

 

[Ellie]

From everything I've ever heard anyone else say, "College Algebra" is the first half of Precalculus.  You're saying your dd went from Pre-Algebra to Precalculus?  Algebra 1, as far as I can tell, is Algebra 1, whether taken at college or not...  However would she manage skipping two whole levels of math... :confused1:

 

 

Y'all can pick this apart if you want, lol. I'm just telling you that she took college-level Algebra 1, Algebra 2, and Statistics. I know that they were college level because they transferred to San Jose State University.

[srainbow]

Just to jump in. My small CC here  in Mendocino county, CA only offers Elementary algebra (= to HS algebra 1) and Intermediate Algebra (= to HS algebra 2). There is no College Algebra after that. The next class recommended seems to be Trigonometry and then Pre-Calculus. There is also Statistics. As for transferring, It looks to me like Pre-Calc and Statistics are the only ones to transfer to UC system. I don't know about the state schools. Probably would be good to find out. Still learning on this myself.

 

[Lori D.]

Just to jump in. My small CC here  in Mendocino county, CA only offers Elementary algebra (= to HS algebra 1) and Intermediate Algebra (= to HS algebra 2). There is no College Algebra after that. The next class recommended seems to be Trigonometry and then Pre-Calculus. There is also Statistics. As for transferring, It looks to me like Pre-Calc and Statistics are the only ones to transfer to UC system. I don't know about the state schools. Probably would be good to find out. Still learning on this myself.

 

Just throwing in a thought here: sometimes you can tell if the CC math course is high school level or college level by the course numbering system.

 

For example, at our CC, any Math with a course number below 100 means it is a remedial course. These are all pre-high school level maths, such as Basic Mathematics" (course number = 082) -- 4 functions review, fractions, percents, decimals, etc. -- and Pre-Algebra (086). None of these courses transfer to the university. They are still dual enrollment/dual credit, but are remedial to being able to take high school level math.

 

Also at our CC: Anything numbered between 100 and 150 is high school level, and would be a pre-requisite to actual College Algebra (151). This includes Elementary Algebra (102) and Intermediate Algebra (122) (high school Algebra 1 and Algebra 2). Completion of these courses (or the high school equivalents) is pre-requisite to taking the College Algebra.

 

Finally, also at our CC: College Algebra (151), Intro to Statistics (167), Trig (182), Pre-Calculus (187), and Calculus (220) all have numbers higher than 150, and the last four also require College Algebra (151) as a pre-requisite. All of these courses transfer to the universities and meet 4-year degree math requirements. There are also a number of 200-level math courses of advanced, specific types of Algebra, Statistics, Calculus, and Computer Science; these usually require 2 or even 3 previous math classes of College Algebra and above as pre-requisites.

 

 

And, to make it all more confusing, every school has its own course numbering system! But sitting down with a counselor at the school of choice usually makes it all clear. :)

[kiana]

Well our cc offers elementary algebra ( remedial, can't take dual credit), intermediate algebra ( remedial, can't take dual credit), college algebra, trig, precalc and calc.

 

My son did Alg I and part of TT Alg II...  He did about 3/4 of a geometry course.  I just couldn't teach him math.  He placed into college algebra and did very well making an A.  He made an A in Trig and then decided to take Stats which he found very easy and made an A.

 

I think it depends on the CC.  Our CC is not hard and I would say that College Algebra WAS Algebra II.  The Trig was more like the Alg 3 and College Algebra that some of you describe.

 

It just depends on the school.

 

I would suspect that this is because you seem to have a 5-course sequence covering all of high school math rather than 4 courses.

[kiana]

Just to jump in. My small CC here  in Mendocino county, CA only offers Elementary algebra (= to HS algebra 1) and Intermediate Algebra (= to HS algebra 2). There is no College Algebra after that. The next class recommended seems to be Trigonometry and then Pre-Calculus. There is also Statistics. As for transferring, It looks to me like Pre-Calc and Statistics are the only ones to transfer to UC system. I don't know about the state schools. Probably would be good to find out. Still learning on this myself.

 

What they've done is put what's normally in a college algebra class after trigonometry, and called it "precalculus". It's still four courses from beginning algebra to calculus readiness. It's unorthodox but there is no real reason you couldn't do that.

 

(I looked up the course catalog)