Delicate question for Catholic converts...

[8circles]

Our understanding of the Eucharist encompasses more than just the Real Presence. One of the many reasons I believe in the Church is the issue of authority and who has it. Who gets to decide doctrine? Who decides issues of morality? Did Jesus leave all that up to us or did he leave us a Church to guide us? If I walk away from the Church, I have to walk away from my understanding of all that, which becomes more complicated than if I was changing from one Protestant group to another, because they generally agree on the nature of authority resting with the individual believer, guided by scripture and the Holy Spirit. That is a big difference. If I believe that Christ founded a Church and left me this authority, then rejecting that authority would be, for me, rejecting Jesus himself.

 

That doesn't mean that I think non-Catholic Christians are rejecting Jesus. They don't have that same understanding of authority that I have, and so they aren't walking away from what I am if I leave the Church. When we talk about what it feels like for a believing, practicing Catholic to leave the Church, that is what we are referring to. It is not a broader, general commentary on non-Catholic spirituality.

 

Momoflaw, I am sorry you feel so upset by these conversations. I would love to be able to have them without having people be offended. I think part of that starts with hearing people talk about their beliefs without projecting what they have said to our own. I can do better with that, and I am sorry to anyone I have inadvertently hurt.

 

I appreciate your willingness to explain your belief in such a kind manner. I understand your belief & am thankful for your clarification. It doesn't change my overall understanding of the Catholic understanding of non-Catholic spirituality but it helps me understand yours. That's a confusing sentence.

 

I don't believe that I'm projecting anything. Unfortunately some of your fellow Catholics have a different view than you & you all seem to use the same vocabulary but ultimately with different meaning. I'm glad you clarified yours.

[WIS0320]

For all those Catholics who say this is in the past, what do you have to say about the arrest of Kansas City Bishop yesterday for delaying the report of a priest with child pornography on his computer for five months?

 

I am very happy he was arrested and I hope that officials start arresting any other Church official of any denomination that covers up child sexual abuse or child pornography.

 

It has been discussed all over the Catholic blogosphere. Most Catholics are angry, not justifying his actions.

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/theanchoress/2011/06/07/bishop-finn-epic-fail-and-fallout/

[Avila]

One more little thing though about walking away from Christ: Catholics believe that all sin is choosing to turn away from God. When we choose anything over him, we sin. Sin separates us from God. Any sin. So the idea of walking away from Christ, as a Catholic, maybe doesn't have the same context as it may for a non-Catholic. It doesn't have to be some huge rejection of Jesus. You are either, at any given point, turning toward God or away from him.

Edited October 16, 2011 by Asenik

[ElizaG]

You said this very well. Thanks!

:iagree: It might be helpful for some posters to check out what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about faith. For us, it's sort of a package deal. A person could believe in Jesus Christ and be a baptized Christian, but still not have the "fullness of faith" in the sense that we understand it.

 

As a general thing, if one is looking for a clear and reliable explanation of Catholic beliefs, the CCC is a much better starting point than an Internet message board. But then, we have better bean dip recipes over here. :)

[Murphy101]

So the RCC = the Body of Christ? What about those millions of believers who are not in the RCC? They haven't abandoned God or Church...just a specific hierarchy.

 

That is their POV.

 

I will offer the best worst analogy I can manage on cold meds.

 

To ME, it is like a limb that has chosen to severe itself from the body. It is still part of the body, but it is not attached. Why would I choose to leave the body for the limb? Especially if I were to no longer believe in the body to begin with?

[HRAAB]

For all those Catholics who say this is in the past, what do you have to say about the arrest of Kansas City Bishop yesterday for delaying the report of a priest with child pornography on his computer for five months?

 

I am very happy he was arrested and I hope that officials start arresting any other Church official of any denomination that covers up child sexual abuse or child pornography.

 

I would never say this is all in the past. Unfortunately, it (sin) will happen again - especially since the church is full of humans. Hopefully, they will be dealt with immediately by the church, and I totally support any predator being arrested and prosecuted. There is no excuse for the hiding of these predators so I can't offer one. It was horrendous.

 

The church is full of sinners and will be until the end. I don't know what I'm supposed to say about that. It feels as though I need to offer some kind of defense for the fact that we have a church full of sinners (the predators as well as those that covered up these awful crimes). Well, our doors are open to all sinners, and our merciful God is waiting for us to seek His forgiveness. Even those priests and bishops involved in these scandals.

[TranquilMind]

That is their POV.

 

I will offer the best worst analogy I can manage on cold meds.

 

To ME, it is like a limb that has chosen to severe itself from the body. It is still part of the body, but it is not attached. Why would I choose to leave the body for the limb? Especially if I were to no longer believe in the body to begin with?

Well, this hinges on acceptance of the proposition that the Catholic Church, the RCC constitutes "The Body of Christ".

 

I don't buy that. It is part of the Body of Christ. It might still be "THE" Body of Christ if it had dealt with corruption oh so long ago, (i.e. Martin Luther and his 95 Theses).

 

Eventually Scripture tells us that the Body of Christ will those who have "come out from among her" but that's another issue.

[Violet Crown]

For all those Catholics who say this is in the past, what do you have to say about the arrest of Kansas City Bishop yesterday for delaying the report of a priest with child pornography on his computer for five months?

 

I am very happy he was arrested and I hope that officials start arresting any other Church official of any denomination that covers up child sexual abuse or child pornography.

I'm not an apologist for abusers or the cover up of malfeasance. But Bp. Finn was not arrested, he was indicted. For a misdemeanor. I'm not sure of the last time I heard of someone being indicted for a misdemeanor. Given that (as the evidence here shows) people are hearing "indicted" as "arrested," one might conclude that the purpose of a misdemeanor indictment, in this case, was to d**n the bishop in the court of public opinion. Seems to have worked.

 

I don't know why the bishop delayed reporting what he had learned. I'd like to wait until the facts come out before condemning him.

Edited October 16, 2011 by Sharon in Austin

[Murphy101]

:iagree: It might be helpful for some posters to check out what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about faith. For us, it's sort of a package deal. A person could believe in Jesus Christ and be a baptized Christian, but still not have the "fullness of faith" in the sense that we understand it.

 

As a general thing, if one is looking for a clear and reliable explanation of Catholic beliefs, the CCC is a much better starting point than an Internet message board. But then, we have better bean dip recipes over here. :)

:iagree:

 

Well, this hinges on acceptance of the proposition that the Catholic Church, the RCC constitutes "The Body of Christ".

 

I don't buy that. It is part of the Body of Christ. It might still be "THE" Body of Christ if it had dealt with corruption oh so long ago, (i.e. Martin Luther and his 95 Theses).

 

Eventually Scripture tells us that the Body of Christ will those who have "come out from among her" but that's another issue.

 

The question was what do RCs believe, or rather what would one think might be meant by turning away from the Body of Christ.

 

I wasn't selling you anything to buy.:glare:

[HRAAB]

That is their POV.

 

I will offer the best worst analogy I can manage on cold meds.

 

To ME, it is like a limb that has chosen to severe itself from the body. It is still part of the body, but it is not attached. Why would I choose to leave the body for the limb? Especially if I were to no longer believe in the body to begin with?

 

Actually the picture I have is of a tree trunk with many branches, still attached, but branching off from the main trunk in differing directions. They keep with them much of the truth, but not the fullness of the truth. We are all connected through our belief in Jesus.

 

I've been hurt and angry many times by people who claim Catholics aren't Christian. I hate to see that this happened to our extended Christian family. I certainly don't believe that other denominations aren't Christian. In fact, such a thought has never entered my mind until reading this thread. I am so sorry that people have been hurt.

[Parrothead]

Well, this hinges on acceptance of the proposition that the Catholic Church, the RCC constitutes "The Body of Christ".

 

I don't buy that. It is part of the Body of Christ. It might still be "THE" Body of Christ if it had dealt with corruption oh so long ago, (i.e. Martin Luther and his 95 Theses).

 

Eventually Scripture tells us that the Body of Christ will those who have "come out from among her" but that's another issue.

It did then and it is now.

[momma aimee]

... or any other Roman Catholic that would like to jump in :)

 

This is a sensitive topic and I truly mean no offense. But, it's something I've wondered about for awhile.

 

My understanding of the Roman Catholic church is that the hierarchy is very important. (Anyone in the know, please feel free to expand on the function of the priests/archbishops, etc. for me, as I'm not well-versed in RC'ism)

 

So... to my question. Because of the scandals of the last decade or so (higher ups covering up s-abuse by clergy) how are you able to feel comfortable being "under" an authority that would do this? When I meet recent converts that are local to me, I wonder that a lot as the parishes here are a part of the archdiocese of Los Angeles and Roger Mahoney didn't have a very good track record in how he handled s-abuse allegations. I just googled him and noted that he stayed in his position until he had to retire because of age. And I was like this: :blink: I mean, seriously, how is it possible that he wasn't fired? (Can an archbishop be fired??)

 

Help me understand! Maybe I'm misunderstanding the influence or authority of the archbishop?

 

I know s-abuse happens in all religions, but it just seems that RC'ism has a uniquely horrible track record in handling these incidents.

 

I'm so sorry if my question is offensive. I truly, honestly mean no disrespect to Catholics. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around this issue and I can't. Surely there's something I'm missing, right? I don't know a lot about RC beliefs, traditions or structure, so maybe someone can help enlighten me?

 

yes I am ok being "under them". Everyone is human, and every "origazation" public, private, faith based -- is staffed by human. Mistakes are going to be made.

 

 

 

 

but I have to say I personally think that a LOT of the abuse scandles are created, crafted and over-blown. a bandwagon too hard to resist jumping on for me, and any excuse to beat on an old enemy for others. Yes i grant abuse has happened; such is the sad state of life on a flawed earth -- and yes it vas covered up, again human seek to hide sin, look at Adam and Eve no one freely shouts out sin -- but i think alot of people are taking advantage of a situation for their own reasons. just saying ....

[mommyrooch]

Actually the picture I have is of a tree trunk with many branches, still attached, but branching off from the main trunk in differing directions. They keep with them much of the truth, but not the fullness of the truth. We are all connected through our belief in Jesus.

 

This is much like the picture I have in my mind. The picture I see is that God (i.e. Jesus) is the trunk of the tree and ALL Christian denominations and churches are branches off of HIM. To me, he is the central focus that all of the "branches" are held up by. :001_smile:

 

I've been hurt and angry many times by people who claim Catholics aren't Christian. I hate to see that this happened to our extended Christian family. I certainly don't believe that other denominations aren't Christian. In fact, such a thought has never entered my mind until reading this thread. I am so sorry that people have been hurt.

 

:iagree: This goes right along with what I stated above. I might not agree with a particular denomination or belief but I do not think it "Christ like" to send the message that others aren't "Christian" just because their belief does not mirror my own. I might never personally believe as they do but it is above my pay grade to believe that they are any further from God than I am. I cannot know about anyone's personal walk with God and whether they are truly part of the "Body of Christ" or not. Whether they're Catholic, Baptist, Morman, etc... Only "HE" (the trunk) knows that. At least that's my opinion. ;)

 

It saddens me when people from any Christian religion (Catholic, Mormon, Baptist, etc..) excludes another Christian from being part of Christ's family or says that they aren't part of the "true family." As if they are somehow the misguided stepchild. I just personally can't understand that. :confused:

Edited October 17, 2011 by mommyrooch

[VinNY]

Whenever talking about religion, someone is bound to get offended:D

 

good night all, I think the original op is satisfied why we RCC's put up with but don't condone simony, scandal and salacious behavior;).

[simka2]

I appreciate your willingness to explain your belief in such a kind manner. I understand your belief & am thankful for your clarification. It doesn't change my overall understanding of the Catholic understanding of non-Catholic spirituality but it helps me understand yours. That's a confusing sentence.

 

I don't believe that I'm projecting anything. Unfortunately some of your fellow Catholics have a different view than you & you all seem to use the same vocabulary but ultimately with different meaning. I'm glad you clarified yours.

 

:iagree: Everyone does this! Protestants do it, Catholics do it, Orthodox do it, Mormons do it, LDS does it, Amish, Jehovah Witness...you name it. Every single one of us fall short. Every single group is comprised of people at various levels of maturity, education (how well they have been taught about their groups specific doctrines and practices), and humilty. The Catholics and Orthodox are no more guilty of this than the others.

 

The english language is lacking in itself, combine that with human shortcomings and there is plenty of room for misunderstanding and offense.

 

I wonder (seriously just musing here) if it is better to form ones opinions and judgements about a group based on the best or worst of the groups members?

 

Allison, none of this is directed AT you. Your post just brought this to mind. ;)

Edited October 17, 2011 by simka2

[TravelingChris]

As a former Catholic, even when I was a Catholic, other Catholics who claimed that only Catholics were Christians bothered me. Same as the Baptists who tried to claim that only Baptists are Christian. Both are and so are many others. That said, it would not bother me if one of my kids married a Lutheran, let's say. It would bother me if they married a Catholic but only because of the tendency of the Catholics to call themselves the One True Faith and not have it encompass all Christians but just Catholics. See I think I had true faith when I was a Catholic and still have true faith today as a Presbyterian. It is simply a matter for me where I felt I was learning the most about God, serving God, and worshipping God. The Catholic Church drove me away, not because of the priest scandals, which hadn't been brought to light then, but because of the totally inadequate preaching and worship experience I was having at the church. I was listening to sermons about Sandanistas (pro) and stupid tv sitcoms and nothing about the Bible. The congregation mumbled through the hymns and everyone there acted like yes, it was an obligation, not something you did because you wanted to get closer to God. So I started visiting Protestant churches. All of them had more involved congregations. We chose one where we learned more about God each week from the preaching in the sermon. We were given many opportunities to serve either in church or the community. Where people seemed genuily happy to be there. We have never looked back.

 

Since dh has been in the military, we have moved a lot. But we always find churches where we learn from the preaching and where the congregation is involved. My daughter looks forward to Church instead of seeing it as a Day of Obligation. My kids know so much more about God and the Bible then I did at each of their ages, and mostly because of what they have learned in church and Sunday School and youth groups.

[Avila]

As a former Catholic, even when I was a Catholic, other Catholics who claimed that only Catholics were Christians bothered me. Same as the Baptists who tried to claim that only Baptists are Christian. Both are and so are many others. That said, it would not bother me if one of my kids married a Lutheran, let's say. It would bother me if they married a Catholic but only because of the tendency of the Catholics to call themselves the One True Faith and not have it encompass all Christians but just Catholics. See I think I had true faith when I was a Catholic and still have true faith today as a Presbyterian. It is simply a matter for me where I felt I was learning the most about God, serving God, and worshipping God. The Catholic Church drove me away, not because of the priest scandals, which hadn't been brought to light then, but because of the totally inadequate preaching and worship experience I was having at the church. I was listening to sermons about Sandanistas (pro) and stupid tv sitcoms and nothing about the Bible. The congregation mumbled through the hymns and everyone there acted like yes, it was an obligation, not something you did because you wanted to get closer to God. So I started visiting Protestant churches. All of them had more involved congregations. We chose one where we learned more about God each week from the preaching in the sermon. We were given many opportunities to serve either in church or the community. Where people seemed genuily happy to be there. We have never looked back.

 

Since dh has been in the military, we have moved a lot. But we always find churches where we learn from the preaching and where the congregation is involved. My daughter looks forward to Church instead of seeing it as a Day of Obligation. My kids know so much more about God and the Bible then I did at each of their ages, and mostly because of what they have learned in church and Sunday School and youth groups.

 

I am sorry you had that experience. Catholic parishes and priests vary in terms of what you are calling worship experience. Some priests are better homilists than others. Some people like Gregorian chant, while others like contemporary music. There is room for both inside the Church. I guess what I am saying is that i am glad you found what you are looking for, but you didn't have to leave the Catholic Church to find it. All of that exists inside the Church. Some parishes are more vibrant and active than others, but nothing you said is something that is exclusively not Catholic.

 

Having said that, the Catholic idea of what worship is and what it entails and centers on is often different from the non-Catholic one. Worship to me is in the act of the Mass and in the Eucharist. The music is nice. The homily is informative and enriching, but the Eucharist is the worship for me.

[Trish]

Eh, people have such high expectations of their religious leaders, but I never quite understand why they leave a denomination over human failures. It isn't as though every time there is a political scandal people are all itching to switch away from democracy and go try socialism or communism or a good old fashioned oligarchy. They rarely even change political parties, scandals notwithstanding.

 

The search for perfection on earth is bound to be disappointed.

[justamouse]

I appreciate your willingness to explain your belief in such a kind manner. I understand your belief & am thankful for your clarification. It doesn't change my overall understanding of the Catholic understanding of non-Catholic spirituality but it helps me understand yours. That's a confusing sentence.

 

I don't believe that I'm projecting anything. Unfortunately some of your fellow Catholics have a different view than you & you all seem to use the same vocabulary but ultimately with different meaning. I'm glad you clarified yours.

 

Every Sunday we pray for our separated brethren. Every Sunday we pray for unity in the church.

 

And I understand that there ARE Catholics who say such, but so have people in every other denomination I've been a part of. They are misguided. Even in RCIA we are taught Protestants are separated brethren.

 

I don't know many people who have responded that said Catholics are THE only true Christians. Just because we say we couldn't ever go to another church doesn't mean we don't think they're Christians, it just means that the Eucharist means that much to us.

 

Christina, I'm really sorry that your parish was such a bad experience. What you have now is the way our parish is. It's an amazing, alive thing. Everyone loves to serve, there's two schools for CCD and over a hundred teachers volunteered to teach. The ministries are amazing, it's just growing, and growing and growing. The priests are such a wealth of knowledge that I could sit there forever-and when the Abbot offers Mass-it's amazing. So I think that might have had more to do with your local parish than the RCC at large. But that also happens at every denomination, there are ungifted preachers in every denomination. :grouphug: I'm sorry the lack in your parish left you with such a bad taste in your mouth.

Edited October 17, 2011 by justamouse

[Shellydon]

.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Sheldon

[ktgrok]

Can I carefully put a question in here? Why does the Catholic church believe that they are the church that Christ founded?

 

becasue they were the only church for centuries. Later on some split off of it, but none came before it. (or one could say they and the Orthodox split, and then others split from there, to be more accurate.)

[Caitilin]

Can I carefully put a question in here? Why does the Catholic church believe that they are the church that Christ founded?

 

Biblically, the idea comes from Matthew 16:18 which says:

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." the RCC takes this to mean that Peter was made the first Pope by Christ Himself, and that the church the pope leads is the first church, founded by Christ. :)

[I.Dup.]

Is the supposed fact that Catholics believe they are the only Christians in the catechism? :confused: I have NEVER heard that taught from the Church, and we just went through a very thorough RCIA process this year. We were always told that Protestants were the "separated brethren." In fact, there were times I WISH they spoke more strongly on this issue, since I come from being a lifelong protestant and believe I was very, very misguided.

[justamouse]

Can I carefully put a question in here? Why does the Catholic church believe that they are the church that Christ founded?

 

becasue they were the only church for centuries. Later on some split off of it, but none came before it. (or one could say they and the Orthodox split, and then others split from there, to be more accurate.)

 

Biblically, the idea comes from Matthew 16:18 which says:

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." the RCC takes this to mean that Peter was the first Pope and the head of the Church. :)

:iagree:

 

But to add, he didn't say, "You are a symbol of my church," or "the knowledge of the 'Rock' is what I will build my church on", He said "you are Cephas, and on this Cephas I will build my church." Those two words are one and the same. Peter, through divine revelation, understood the truth of who Christ was-the others did not, though they were just as much apostles as Peter was. The meaning of the scripture gets lost in the English translation.

Edited October 17, 2011 by justamouse

[Shellydon]

.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Sheldon

[Unscripted]

I will say that my many many methodist baptisms were recognized within the Catholic church. I did not need to be baptized yet again to come into full communion with the church. However, I would have needed to be baptized again for many protestant faiths to recognize it. I have never been called a "non-Christian" as a protestant... However, in my years as a Catholic- I have had to defend my Christianity numerous times.

 

To me the RCC is way more accepting of our brothern (even within the sacrament of baptism) than they are of we Catholics. Just speaking to my experience on both sides is the aisle here.

[Caitilin]

How do they know they were the only church? Couldn't there have been very small bodies of believers spread out in villages and towns in the early centuries? Since the bible makes no mention of the word "Catholic" or "Pope" how can Catholics believe so strongly that they are THE church.

 

Thanks for answering. I live in a highly Catholic area, but didn't want to offend friends by asking. My kids always ask me why many of our neighbors are worshiping statues in their backyards :)

 

The point is that the RCC believes that Christ's words to Peter instituted the Christian Church. Meaning, aaaalllll Christians at that time belonged to the same church and shared the same beliefs, even if they were geographically separate.

 

And, ftr, your neighbors aren't worshipping the statues in their yards any more than you would. Their statues remind them of the saints who are in heaven with Christ, and remind to ask for the saints to pray to Christ for them, just as people ask their friends (or fellow boardies!) to pray for them. :001_smile:

[Unscripted]

My kids always ask me why many of our neighbors are worshiping statues in their backyard

 

Oh wow. I am just... Wow.

[justamouse]

 

Thanks for answering. I live in a highly Catholic area, but didn't want to offend friends by asking. My kids always ask me why many of our neighbors are worshiping statues in their backyards :)

 

We're not worshiping them. They are in heaven, no? They are alive in Christ, that 'great cloud of witnesses' who are constantly before God's throne? They are peolpe who have run the race, who have been martyerd for their faith, they are what we seek to emulate. We're not praying TO them, we're asking them to pray for US, that we too may also be worthy, that we may run the race, that we can also become a part of that great cloud upon our passing over. Statues, icons, pictures are a way to constantly remind ourselves of how we should be living our lives. They're pictures of loved ones who we want to emulate. We ask them to pray for us.

 

So now you can answer, "People are not worshipping them, the owners are asking the asking the Saints of God to pray for them."

Edited October 17, 2011 by justamouse

[Shellydon]

.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Sheldon

[Shellydon]

.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Sheldon

[Xuzi]

:iagree: Everyone does this! Protestants do it, Catholics do it, Orthodox do it, Mormons do it, LDS does it, Amish, Jehovah Witness...you name it. Every single one of us fall short. Every single group is comprised of people at various levels of maturity, education (how well they have been taught about their groups specific doctrines and practices), and humilty. The Catholics and Orthodox are no more guilty of this than the others.

 

The english language is lacking in itself, combine that with human shortcomings and there is plenty of room for misunderstanding and offense.

 

I wonder (seriously just musing here) if it is better to form ones opinions and judgements about a group based on the best or worst of the groups members?

 

Allison, none of this is directed AT you. Your post just brought this to mind. ;)

[slight hijack]LDS and Mormon are the same thing. :D And now back to your regularly scheduled discussion of Catholicism. (which I'm finding quite informative!)[/slight hijack]

[mommaduck]

How do they know they were the only church? Couldn't there have been very small bodies of believers spread out in villages and towns in the early centuries? Since the bible makes no mention of the word "Catholic" or "Pope" how can Catholics believe so strongly that they are THE church.

 

Thanks for answering. I live in a highly Catholic area, but didn't want to offend friends by asking. My kids always ask me why many of our neighbors are worshiping statues in their backyards :)

Please explain to your children that they aren't "worshiping" the statues any more than you worship the photos of loved ones hanging on your wall.

 

Yes, there were people that were part of the Church in villages and towns, but they were all part of the organism called "the Church". Study the earliest Church Fathers. You will learn a lot.

[Shellydon]

.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Sheldon

[ktgrok]

How do they know they were the only church? Couldn't there have been very small bodies of believers spread out in villages and towns in the early centuries? Since the bible makes no mention of the word "Catholic" or "Pope" how can Catholics believe so strongly that they are THE church.

 

 

 

Yes, there were many small bodies of believers, and all of them are "The Church." There were no separate denominations. All of those groups would be considered Catholic/Orthodox, depending on which one you ask. Either way, they were all considered/are considered part of the same faith. The only ones that were not part of "The Church" were those that were heretical, like the Gnostics. But everyone else is considered part of the same body. There were no other options until about a thousand years later.

[Shellydon]

Yes, there were many small bodies of believers, and all of them are "The Church." There were no separate denominations. All of those groups would be considered Catholic/Orthodox, depending on which one you ask. Either way, they were all considered/are considered part of the same faith. The only ones that were not part of "The Church" were those that were heretical, like the Gnostics. But everyone else is considered part of the same body. There were no other options until about a thousand years later.

 

 

.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Sheldon

[mommaduck]

I do understand what they are doing, but I have to admit I believe it is incorrect. In my view, the Holy Spirit and Jesus himself ONLY are the one that intercede for us, no one else. Your answer is basically what I tell them, framed within our faith of whether that is bibically correct or not.

So you never ask someone at church to pray for you? Only you can pray for you?

[ktgrok]

I do understand what they are doing, but I have to admit I believe it is incorrect. In my view, the Holy Spirit and Jesus himself ONLY are the one that intercede for us, no one else. Your answer is basically what I tell them, framed within our faith of whether that is bibically correct or not.

 

Perhaps you should make it clear to them that they are asking Mary to pray for them, the same way that you ask your friends to pray for you.

[Shellydon]

.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Sheldon

[Avila]

I do understand what they are doing, but I have to admit I believe it is incorrect. In my view, the Holy Spirit and Jesus himself ONLY are the one that intercede for us, no one else. Your answer is basically what I tell them, framed within our faith of whether that is bibically correct or not.

 

Do you not ever ask a friend, your pastor, your family, to pray for you? That is what intercession is. Taken to its logical conclusion, you should never ask anyone to pray for you. You should do all your praying for yourself.

 

The saints are not dead. They are alive in Christ. That is what he came here for -- to give us eternal life. These people are the recipients of that gift. They are our brothers and sisters in Christ who have passed from this life to the next before us. Just as we asked them here to pray for our needs and share in our suffering, we can continue that bond with them now, even though they no longer share our physical realm.

[Shellydon]

.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Sheldon

[mommaduck]

Got it. I am also guessing that the very early church bears little resemblance to the Catholic church of today (or any other denomination for that matter).

Since we are speaking pre-Schism, I'll jump in on this as the EO & RC were one at this point.

 

They have uncovered a lot of things in Catacombs, etc. They have found baptismals and icons (just to name a couple). Also pictures depicting sacraments. It's a more primitive form, but not as drastically different as people like to make it. The main difference is that it was small and in it's infancy back then and more of a monolith now (regardless if you are comparing to the EO or the RC). That's normal for growth.

[justamouse]

Our neighbors have statues of Mary and perhaps some other saints that they kneel before and place things around. It *looks* like worshiping an statue, even if it isn't.

 

We're living the liturgical year. Catholicism is a physical thing, we remember the saints through their feast days, we remember church history through our feast days. There are sensual ways we walk through the church seasons, and sometimes planting pink flowers in May for Mary's crowning is a way for us to remind ourselves that's she was Christ's mother, the Theotokos (bearer of Light) and how we all want to bear Christ's light within us.

 

We recently put out birdseed for St. Francis feast day. How he loved the earth and all of God's creation. The birdseed was to remind us that he was so filled up with the love of God that he preached to the birds when there were no people around. He loved all animals and lived a life of poverty, and wrote the Canticle of the Sun, an incredible song of God and creation.

 

On the day of Pentecost we make a birthday cake for the Church.

 

Things like that. We live out the church year. It's a very tactile thing.

[mommaduck]

Yes, living people.

We believe they are still alive...alive in Christ. This is why we don't call them "dead" in our faith.

[Shellydon]

We're living the liturgical year. Catholicism is a physical thing, we remember the saints through their feast days, we remember church history through our feast days. There are sensual ways we walk through the church seasons, and sometimes planting pink flowers in May for Mary's crowning is a way for us to remind ourselves that's she was Christ's mother, the Theotokos (bearer of Light) and how we all want to bear Christ's light within us.

 

We recently put out birdseed for St. Francis feast day. How he loved the earth and all of God's creation. The birdseed was to remind us that he was so filled up with the love of God that he preached to the birds when there were no people around. He loved all animals and lived a life of poverty, and wrote the Canticle of the Sun, an incredible song of God and creation.

 

On the day of Pentecost we make a birthday cake for the Church.

 

Things like that. We live out the church year. It's a very tactile thing.

 

Very interesting. I am sure your children enjoy it.

[justamouse]

I do understand what they are doing, but I have to admit I believe it is incorrect. In my view, the Holy Spirit and Jesus himself ONLY are the one that intercede for us, no one else. Your answer is basically what I tell them, framed within our faith of whether that is bibically correct or not.

 

Well then why did you ask? :confused:

[Shellydon]

We believe they are still alive...alive in Christ. This is why we don't call them "dead" in our faith.

 

 

.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Sheldon

[justamouse]

And I don't. I believe they either are or will be with Christ forever, but are not able to see or hear us and do not have anything to do with earthly things.

 

Again, why did you ask then?

[Shellydon]

Well then why did you ask? :confused:

 

 

I didn't. I made the comment that my kids asked why the neighbors were worshiping statues in their backyard. I asked why Catholics believed their church to be Christ's original church.

[mommaduck]

And I don't. I believe they either are or will be with Christ forever, but are not able to see or hear us and do not have anything to do with earthly things.

I understand that. I used to believe the same.